Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/October 2010

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Hi everyone. I would like to discuss the Senkaku Islands article, specifically (a) all sections i, ii, and iii that give the actual arguments used in its dispute, (b) the one section on the history of the dispute, (c) and the one section that is not about the islands themselves.

(a) Moving all of the disputable contents to a separate article would help readers better understand what information is being disputed and what is not.

(b) Although the current list of historical events is more on the factual side, it is centered on the dispute over the islands. As such, it would disproportionately distract from the islands themselves and may be better combined in a separate article with the sections mentioned in (a).

(c) The information in this section might be related to the islands outside of Wikipedia, but as far as how articles are organized, it has nothing to do with the topic--in fact, it does not even mention the islands.

Lastly, although I would love to move around or rephrase any content so that it could be agreeable to Wikipedia guidelines, I don't think it would be the best practice if questionable edits were practically to become a burden for other editors. In which case, I would think that removal--following discussion on the relevant Talk Page and Noticeboard--should be justified despite loosing the questionable contents.DXDanl (talk) 02:26, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

So, you're proposing something like Senkaku Islands dispute be created to house most of the dispute content, with only a brief summary being included in Senkaku Islands? ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 19:11, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Man, that might be a necessary evil. I have a feeling it'd turn into another mess like the Liancourt Rocks dispute article, though. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 20:22, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Yup. But we would at least get the main article down to something manageable.DXDanl (talk) 07:28, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. That is pretty much what other resources do as well, such as ja:尖閣諸島領有権問題, 尖閣諸島問題, and the media discussing it in a similar mannor. 180.11.188.56 (talk) 07:49, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

It seems to me that the current contentious article is still not long enough but there's a positive trend that the article is heading to be stable. Anyway, most involved editors read the talk page of the current article rather than this project page. Please propose a spilt there and see how others think of it. --Winstonlighter (talk) 12:54, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

'Pinnacle Islands dispute' would be more appropriate title for an article about dispute. STSC (talk) 15:47, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Not unless the main article is named "Pinnacle Islands". They must use the same terminology. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 17:08, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

DXDanl suggests a promising protocol. One phrase particularly deserves emphasis. The words imply a neutral tactic which can be adapted for use in other disputes:

"... help readers better understand what information is being disputed and what is not."

DXDanl identifies a step in a constructive direction.

Perhaps something useful can be achieved by shifting the focus of attention in a process of parsing conflated issues?

I can't be alone in wondering if important elements of this dispute and others like it tend to be sidetracked into a classical format. Any and all discussion threads devolve into a kind of circular argument -- like xiangsheng or when a white horse is not a horse?

In other words, it seems to me that DXDanl is proposing a formatting gambit as an escape from something like the American Who's on first? scenario.

To me, the plan seems solid. I support DXDanl's proposal. in conjunction with changing the names of the articles to Pinnacle Islands and Pinnacle Islands dispute. --Tenmei (talk) 20:38, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

I strongly oppose the rename, but support separate articles for the conflict and collision ja:尖閣諸島中国漁船衝突事件--Shinkansen Fan (talk) 00:48, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Hello, I created this article. May you help to expand this article, if I remember well, Japan also have its own frequency list. {{Frequency list}}

Yug (talk) 19:04, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

List of National Treasures of Japan (ancient documents) is currently a featured list candidate and looking for comments, questions or suggestions at the nomination page. bamse (talk) 10:59, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Can anyone translate this inscription for me please? i think it might be a memorial or grave marker, but don't know.

• top part
  top part
• bottom part
  bottom part
• all of the inscription
  all of the inscription

Thankyou.Melcheeyore (talk) 12:32, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

This could be Chinese, actually. The characters almost match the string "卓故领事还来公被害纪念碑" which appears in this Chinese article http://www.chinaqw.com/node2/node2796/node2882/node2953/node3136/userobject6ai3903.html. I can't read Chinese but it seems to describe a monument in Malaysia for those who died in World War 2. The inscription itself looks to be the name of the monument, says something about "victim's memorial monument/tombstone" -SpuriousQ (talk) 12:56, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, very interesting and not at all what I was expecting, so thankyou. I'll ask on the WP China page too, then.Melcheeyore (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:08, 7 October 2010 (UTC).

For the life of me I cannot read Japanese calligraphy (or Chinese, for that matter) at all. Can anyone figure out what the title of File:Hiroshige III - Tokyo meisho zu.jpg might be? It's in the upper right. I can make out 石 and 砲, but that's about it. 東京名勝図 is the title of the series, so that's what the file is named for the time being. The Library of Congress source didn't have the romaji for the title of this print. Thanks! howcheng {chat} 23:29, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I can't decipher it either, but this site has it as "鉄砲洲明石ばし". And this site has the translation as: "Teppōzu Akashi-bashi" or "The bridge Akashi-bashi in Teppōzu". bamse (talk) 00:29, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Nice sleuthing! I did try Googling "東京名勝図 広重３代目 石 砲" (and variations) but was not particularly successful. Image moved to File:Hiroshige III - Teppōzu Akashi-bashi.jpg. Thanks! howcheng {chat} 02:02, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I did a google IMAGE search for 東京名勝図, et voilà... bamse (talk) 16:50, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

For the last entry in this table (唐鞍), I am looking for the translation or meaning of 八子 and 障泥. These should be terms related to Horse tack. Any suggestions are welcome. bamse (talk) 17:18, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I just found this page, which calls them aori. I would translate it as a panel. No idea on the yako (or however it's read.) — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 17:26, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Aori seems correct. As far as I understand that's the brown panel between stirrup and horse in this picture. Will as the experts from the wikiproject equine if it has a special name. Anybody has got an idea about 八子? bamse (talk) 19:56, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

See 2 and 3. It's hassi or hane. Oda Mari (talk) 20:17, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. Some kind of decoration?! bamse (talk) 21:28, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Would this be helpful?

• Deal, William E. (2007). "Sadlery," Handbook to life in medieval and early modern Japan, pp. 155-156., p. 155, at Google Books
• Images: A. image of saddle and harness, Japanese, 1812 (National Museums Liverpool, Lady Lever Art Gallery); B. Samurai armour and horse tack, (Powerhouse Museum)
• Equine tack expertise: Equine Museum of Japan (馬の博物館, Uma no Hakubutsukan); Equine Cultural Affairs Foundation

This is relevant tangentially. --Tenmei (talk) 23:49, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

See this what's what. How about "mud flap" or "splash guard" for the translation of aori? Oda Mari (talk) 16:17, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Excellent! Thanks a lot. I was looking for an image like this. bamse (talk) 16:56, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

In the context of Oda Mari's suggested translation, curators at National Museums Liverpool combine both alternatives. I guess that "mud guard" appears to be the English term-of-art for this piece of Japanese tack: "The large leather ‘mud-guards’ at either side of the saddle served also to protect the horse from chafing by the iron stirrups."

See this image too. Oda Mari (talk) 08:08, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Wow, so many replies for just a tiny table entry. Thanks a lot to everybody once more. bamse (talk) 14:15, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

See WP:FFD, images File:1953renminribao.GIF and File:PRCmap-senkakuislands.jpg have been nominated for deletion. 76.66.200.95 (talk) 04:30, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

File:Letter of thanks from ROC consul to Ishigakijima in 1920.jpg has also been nominated for deletion. See commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Letter of thanks from ROC consul to Ishigakijima in 1920.jpg -- 76.66.200.95 (talk) 05:46, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Is Kaihōgyō the common English name for this amazing feat of endurance? Because the Japanese page seems to be titling the race 千日回峰行 which isn't the same of course! (I guess I should add that I know the article explains the 1000 days thing and everything, but I was more concerned with having the correct name for the thing!) Cheers, Nesnad (talk) 14:54, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

The attempt to have a meetup last March/April in Tokyo failed. Anyone game to try again? I have more free time now than I had then. Cla68 (talk) 07:59, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Jpatokal proposed a changed to the current Manual of Style's guideline concerning the romanization of Ryukyuan. Despite the original discussion not reaching a consensus, Jpatokal went ahead and edited the Manual of Style to reflect his proposed changes. This edit was reverted by Ryulong and is currently being discussed here.

Please help reach an informed consensus that everybody can live with, here. --Tauwasser (talk) 17:32, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Just FYI, the MOS has just been changed to require that Okinawan be romanized with wapuro romaji. If you have an opinion on this, please contribute. Jpatokal (talk) 21:39, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Jeez. The section MOS has been more or less restored to its original state. Stop harping over this aspect which is rarely ever bothered with.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 22:55, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Type 94 Te-Ke Takabeg (talk) 04:53, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I just started this new article on an R&D unit of the Imperial Japanese Army. Request the Japanese/kanji name of the unit be added with a wikilink to the equivalent article on the Japanese Wikipedia. Thanks in advance. Cla68 (talk) 11:27, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I added kanji characters from ja:登戸研究所 but I am not sure the Romanization. Please feel free to correct my edit. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 12:03, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

HelloAnnyong corrected my edit. Thank you. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 12:42, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

FYI, Category:Nanking Massacre deniers has been nominated for deletion. 76.66.198.128 (talk) 04:15, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

A MILHIST editor is asking for information help related to the article on the 1945 Japan–Washington flight. The sources call the originating airfield in the Sapporo area "Mizutani Air Base". The inquiring editor is guessing that refers to what is called today Okadama Airport, but it could also be Chitose Air Base, or an airfield that no longer exists. I assume Mizutani is written 水谷, but my own Japanese isn't good enough to a Japanese Google search to see what it turns up. Cla68 (talk) 06:37, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't see a mention of "Mizutani" in either of the Okadama or Chitose articles in the Japanese Wikipedia, so could it be an airfield that no longer exists? Cla68 (talk) 06:44, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I found this source that states that the airdrome is in Chitose. See page 2.imars (talk) 07:37, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. There is [1] (Chapter 4) and this (page 7). The second link mentions that someone named Mizutani donated his land to the Imperial Japanese Navy which later became Camp Higashi-Chitose. The Chitose link apparently mentions that there was an IJN airbase in Chitose during WWII. So, did this become Chitose Air Base or is it a separate installation? Cla68 (talk) 07:43, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

My Japanese is not good enough, but I found this link on the Chitose city website. It mentions Mizutani Farm.imars (talk) 07:49, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, your link provides more evidence that Mizutani field was probably Chitose Air Base. The Americans apparently sometimes called the base "Sapporo Air Base". Typing that name into Google brings up a Japanese weather site, which, in the current conditions box, labels the area as "Chitose Air Base." Cla68 (talk) 08:16, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Interestingly enough there is what looks like an old airbase northeast of Shin Chitose. See Google and GSI.imars (talk) 13:59, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Ahhh! It is the Eastern Chitose Ground Self-Defense Force base.imars (talk) 14:07, 22 October 2010 (UTC)imars (talk) 14:12, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

This might indeed be what you are looking for [2].imars (talk) 14:12, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Imars is right. This page has a description of Mizutani and this page has a description of the B29 flight in 1945. The 2500 meter runway is also called the Renzan runway. And it was called Camp Chitose II by the US during the occupation. Oda Mari (talk) 16:47, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks guys, the mystery is solved. Cla68 (talk) 07:29, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi, We have a number of anomalies where people are dead on JA wiki but not here on EN wiki. In some cases it would really help if a Japanese speaker could check Japanese language sources for the individuals concerned. Would anyone here be willing to lend a hand? Incidentally if any of you are active on JA wiki, it would be nice to get them to request an anomaly report at meta:Death_anomalies_table as there are bound to be some articles on JA wiki which still have people as living when on another language we have them as dead. ϢereSpielChequers 16:26, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I just did a few, and I can do a few more when I have a chance. What's the qualification for getting something on or off of that list? Does it check the categories for 'deaths', or look at the infobox, or what? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 16:54, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks HelloAnnyong, The bot runs every day and uses categories and interwiki links. Sometimes you need to change the EN wiki category from living people to year of death, sometimes its a category error on another language wiki and sometimes the interwiki links are linking two different people with the same name. We started with several hundred anomalies earlier this year and what we have left are mainly hard to resolve ones - plus the daily new ones that we can usually fix. ϢereSpielChequers 17:05, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

FYI, Nozomi (probe) and Akatsuki (Planet-C) are up for renaming. Note: Suisei (probe) name is related to this discussion. 76.66.203.138 (talk) 13:25, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

FYI, Hirohito has again been nominated for renaming, see Talk:Hirohito. 76.66.203.138 (talk) 13:25, 30 October 2010 (UTC)