Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/May 2016

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Isn't it time to get rid of the question marks whenever Japanese characters are used, linking to instruction for installing Japanese character sets? Are there still browsers that can't display these characters? It must be considered outdated now. It is annoying to see all those question marks everywhere in Japan-related articles. See for example the section on the list of characters in The Tale of Genji, that is surely overkill. Hzh (talk) 14:02, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you see that, feel free to switch them to the ones that don't show it (except for the first appearance of the template in an article). ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:26, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, it doesn't bother me. I just skip over them, as I do with most superscript anything. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:28, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't really answer the question. Only a small percentage of people still have Windows XP or older systems, and those that do have probably already installed the necessary character sets. It is therefore only meant for very few people, for great majority of readers it just make people wonder why there is a question mark there. Hzh (talk) 18:44, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have data to backup the claim that, of people using Wikipedia, only a small percentage are using XP or another system which doesn't support Japanese by default? As for the question mark, if they wonder, they can always click on it. For everyone, simply ignore it. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:54, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, but given that the percentage of those using XP has been falling according to usage share of operating systems, and given that XP has been around for years, those who would have wanted to install would have done so already, and those who can't read Japanese character sets wouldn't install it anyway. I don't think there are many who are interested in Japanese character sets wouldn't have it on their system already, and as far as I know, all the newer OS have Japanese character set installed by default. That question mark is therefore largely pointless. I'm sure most of those who visited the help site for installing Japanese character sets are there because they are curious why there are question marks all over the place. Hzh (talk) 22:44, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia traffic analysis doesn't appear to list separate Windows OS here, maybe somehow else has a source somewhere that can illuminate the issue a bit more. Hzh (talk) 22:53, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, just found one - 2.4 % use Windows XP, 0.5% Windows 98 - here. The point however is still that only very few of those interested in Japanese character sets wouldn't have them installed already (they had around 10 years to do that if they are interested). Hzh (talk) 22:58, 18 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

2.4% and 0.5% are a very large number of actual users in absolute numbers (instead of relative numbers). And not everyone uses MS Windows anyways. Why wouldn't people look things up from these systems if they are not intrinsically interested in Japanese topics, but only interested in particular topics that happen to be Japanese? -- 70.51.45.100 (talk) 07:23, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Only people who can read Japanese (or Chinese) would need to install the character sets, it is not about interest in Japanese topics. If you still haven't installed the character sets on you XP or Win98, then it is most likely that you can't read Japanese or Chinese (Chinese articles are getting rid of the notice about character sets). I don't know of any new OS that don't install the character sets by default, Windows or not. Hzh (talk) 10:41, 19 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Even if they didn't know Japanese, they would be wondering why squares or question marks or mojibake showed up on the page. -- 70.51.45.100 (talk) 05:51, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think these question marks have outlived their useful life. I suspect that this is particular to Japanese: are there any other "Help with [particular language]" tooltips? There is a page on "East-Asian character sets, which presumably covers all kanji cases, plus the pseudo-large-character-set case of hangul. So why is Japanese different? Probably because many years ago, for various reasons, Japanese was way ahead in terms of material being available, and probably also in interest from non-native readers or non-readers. Getting a non-Japanese computer to do anything with Japanese text was a very major undertaking, on the bleeding edge. But now everything has changed. I only get "boxes" on very rare occasions, things like obscure dialects of Chinese, and of course no tooltip, and since I couldn't read them anyway, I pass on. But what are the disadvantages of the question marks? Well, when I see a question mark, I always want to click it to see what this is about. I bet that 90%+ of the visits to the "Installing Japanese characters" page are people who clicked to see what's there, and instantly left. So they cause useless clutter, on a significant scale. And what are the advantages? Hard to see any, really. They help people who do not have multilingual character support specifically for Japanese, want to read/look at foreign character sets, have never encountered this problem before, and decide to do something about it now. This really must be a vanishingly tiny number of users. Hzh has said most things that need to be said, but just to respond to the IP above:

(quote) "Even if they didn't know Japanese, they would be wondering why squares or question marks or mojibake showed up on the page"

• Squares: yes, they might wonder. But such squares will appear outside Wikipedia, and outside Japanese.
• Question marks: Notice that question marks are what we are trying to get rid of!
• Mojibake: UTF-8. This simply isn't a problem.

Imaginatorium (talk) 07:08, 26 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I too think it should be removed. I said as much here only a short time ago. works fine without it, and no-one has ever asked for something similar to be added despite the issue being near identical. Anyone still using e.g. XP who does not have Asian languages installed is surely used to not being able to read Chinese and Japanese.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 07:44, 26 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Odds are, you only click the question mark once. It's not there for people who know what it is. It's there for those who don't know what it is or who have questions about Japanese. You are obviously not part of that group. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:29, 26 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Someone who does not know about Japanese can click on the prominent Japanese link that should appear at least once if the template is used. That is far more likely than someone looking for help installing Japanese support, given how few people are still using XP, or other OSes that do not Japanese by default. Yet the template always includes the “?” but does not always include the link to Japanese language.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 02:40, 27 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So your main complaint is where it links. Okay, how about we change that? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 04:18, 27 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot think of a good target. There are many things people might be looking for when they click on it. Perhaps most likely is “what do these symbols mean’, in which case they should visit Japanese language. But the first link in the template is to Japanese language. They might be more interested in an article on the writing system, such as Japanese writing system, hirigana, kana. All of those can be easily reached from Japanese language. They might have a particular question they want to ask in which case they should visit a talk page or the reference desk depending on the question.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 04:41, 27 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with changing it to Japanese language. I think that's as good a target as as any. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 06:04, 27 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

But that means the article is linked twice in the template, ones clearly as Japanese, once much less clearly attached to the question mark, making it confusing (why link it twice?) and redundant.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 12:19, 27 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It can be written to use "if" to make it not display it twice if the "lead" option is enabled. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:47, 27 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, the main complaint is not where the template links. The problem is that it is unsightly, deprecated cruft that detracts from Japanese-language articles. The HTML <head> of every WP page says, <meta charset="UTF-8"/>, which includes 70,000 Unihan characters, viewable without special templates in all major browsers. Should this discussion be taken over to MOS:JAPAN, as is being done for Chinese? Keahapana (talk) 23:17, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is definitely not cruft, it's never been deprecated, and it doesn't detract from Japan-related articles in the least. It's a tiny, superscript question mark which could even be set up to only appear once in the article. Before any such discussion takes place, however, anyone wanting to remove it will need to find solid numbers regarding which browsers and browser versions are being used to view Wikipedia articles. Maybe you can take that on. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:38, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And we need to go by actual numbers of views, not percentages. Even if it's 1.5%, if that equals 500 million views, we should keep it there so those 500 million viewers aren't left wondering what the weird boxes are if their browser doesn't support it. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:45, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I support removal of the question marks. Simply because when I first started contributing to Wikipedia I thought that the question mark indicated the possibility that the Japanese spelling wasn't correct. And I remember seeing a message saying something like "Remove the question mark, it is written correctly, I'm certain!" on a talk page (either here or in the Russian Wiki). So it wasn't only me who was confused about its intended meaning. --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:55, 1 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There is an ongoing debate regarding which numeral romanizations are to be used in 5 Centimeters Per Second. I think more people should weigh in on Talk:5 Centimeters Per Second#Numeral romanization. Thanks. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:38, 3 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Some People want the paralympic volleyball player Junko Fujii being deleted. She participated at 2 Paralympic games and won the silver medal at the Asian games. The problem is for finding secondary sources that I can't speak Japanese. Can someone tell me what her is in Japanese? Or even better can find a secondary source with her name? Thanks a lot, Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 16:12, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it is 藤井順子. Here's a search on Google. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:52, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Nihonjoe [1]. --KurodaSho (talk) 17:01, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot!! This really helps! Probably this will save the article Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 19:31, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I translated the French language topographic map of Japan. Would be happy about any feedback/error correction.... bamse (talk) 20:27, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good. I didn't see any issues after a quick glance. Thanks! ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:49, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent. One minor thing regarding administrative status for large cities, but as it is included: Kure, Hiroshima and Sasebo, Nagasaki are now core cities (since "fiscal new year" 2016, http://www.chuukakushi.gr.jp/docs/2016032900018/) --Asakura Akira (talk) 19:40, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Updated, Kure and Sasebo are now core cities. Thanks. bamse (talk) 20:03, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Japan Prize laureates, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for deletion and listifying. A discussion is taking place to see if it abides with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. RevelationDirect (talk) 02:16, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Square Enix, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:03, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

An SPA IP geolocated in Japan persists in adding a sentence in broken English to Waseda University claiming that it was the "first" university recognised by the government under the 大学令 (university rescript of 1920), with a link to the govt archives showing that Waseda's approval was given case number 23 against Keio's case number 24. Never mind that they were probably listed in i-ro-ha order, and that the two matters may have been passed by a single grunt of approval (or whatever), this IP claims that Waseda was approved "first" at least by minutes. (The current sentence reads: "Waseda University has been the first university of the government ordinance.") This is so silly it is hard to know how to respond, and the IP shows no sign of reasonable English comprehension. So it would help if a few other people looked at the page history, and the attempt at discussion on the talk page. Thanks. Imaginatorium (talk) 07:36, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Japan experts. I couldn't find any reviews or news reports about this person in English. Are there perhaps some in Japanese that could be added? Or is this actor non-notable?—Anne Delong (talk) 15:28, 13 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Anne Delong: Here are a few: [2], [3], [4], [5]. There are probably others, too. That was just a quickie search. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:08, 13 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Nihonjoe, that's great. Can you (or someone else here who speaks the language) place those as refs in the the article? Then at least no one will consider deleting the article. —Anne Delong (talk) 20:21, 13 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

He is notable in japan, but I think he is not famous in english world at now.--Takahiro4 (talk) 08:16, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If he's notable in Japan, then he's notable for Wikipedia. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:42, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. One of the English Wikipedia's purposes is to provide information for people who speak English about notable subjects for which they can't read the original sources.—Anne Delong (talk) 15:48, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If anybody wants to do some work on the Commons, why not add Commons:Category:SVG map symbols of Japan to Japan-related categories, along with the Japanese flag and/or prefecture/city/town/etc. flags, to help illustrate the categories? For example in Commons:Category:Schools in Japan by educational level in addition to the text description (one in Japanese is really needed here!) I also have symbol descriptions: the Japanese flag and the symbols for university, high school, and elementary/junior high school. Commons:Category:High schools in Tokyo - The symbols are not meant for decoration but to assist people who have trouble reading (possibly due to knowing another language and/or having dyslexia) WhisperToMe (talk) 19:44, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

BTW see Commons:Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2012/03#Symbols_for_non-literate_people where I decided to add AIGA symbols to some category pages to help assist users who may not be literate and/or who know other languages. This is just an extension of the idea for users residing in Japan. WhisperToMe (talk) 21:01, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just for information. In this March, 15 map symbols for overseas visitors were released (not override the conventional symbols).[6]―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 21:33, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for mentioning that! If they are sufficiently different from the conventional symbols they may be used side-by-side. WhisperToMe (talk) 22:19, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]