Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/September 2007

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User Opp2 brought some Japanese sources which I'm not quite sure he translated correctly b/c of his limited English. Could somebody here who can read Japanese correctly translate them? Also ask to Opp2 in Japanese for the title of the book/chapter, etc. (the usual stuff needed for proper citation). Thanks. (Wikimachine 03:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC))

Section name slightly modified. --Aphaia 17:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

It's around time when WikiProject Biography ends their assessment drive. How about we do it too? there's only 3900 unassessed articles, so I think they'll be done in about a month. Any thoughts? --Reviewisat(Talk) 05:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC) aka Hirohisat (talk · contribs)

Part of the problem is enthusiastic editors (nothing wrong with that) tagging articles without also assessing them at the same time. It only takes a minute or so to assess an article (Is it a stub? (Stub) Is it more than a stub, but not fleshed out enough or sourced enough to be a B-class? (Start) Is the article fairly well fleshed out and does it have a good start on sourcing? (B class)). Anything beyond that needs to be reviewed in order to be marked as GA, A, or FA. If we can get everyone cooperating to assess articles as they are tagged, that will help us keep down the total unassessed articles. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll admit to being guilty of that. I'll try to be more thorough about my tagging from now on. -Amake 11:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I've updated the stats template. If you want to help, please post the letters you're going to work on here so we don't duplicate efforts. I'm going to work on the beginning, through G. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 02:22, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

And here's a convenient link. (^_^) ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 04:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I've finished through G. I'll work on H-K next. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:00, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Another editor -- not me -- has proposed that Konica and Minolta should be merged within Konica Minolta. I can't find any argument for this proposal. (My own comment is on Talk:Konica.)

(I've a hunch that this shouldn't be on this talk page but instead should be on some sub talk page. However, I don't know where. Feel free to move it to a more appropriate place.) -- Hoary 01:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to figure out how to get {{ReqphotoinJapan}} to work to put articles into the Category:Wikipedia requested photographs of people in Japan. I figure it's something about putting an "if" and/or switch into the template, but I'm not sure how. It would also need to be done without breaking the current uses as well. Anyone up to it? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to see about these words (保安課 Hoanka) and (内庁 Naicho?). These words are from GITS: SAC 2nd GIG and I'm planning to use as the Japanese names in the Operators article. Should I put Hoanka as Security Division? I'm not sure about the kanji used to spell out Naicho since there is a Naicho in the Japanese government. Thanks. Ominae 04:51, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I haven't seen SAC 1, 2 (yet; the movie was great), but I think here Naicho is not 内庁 but 内調, short for 内部調査, meaning internal affairs. I never heard of any division or section called 内庁 in the police force. Since the section 5 is an English translation for ５課, Security Section might be more correct translation for 保安課. -- Taku 08:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I checked related articles in ja. and en.WP. As for 保安課 (hoanka), in Japanese it's 公安課(kōanka) and it seems to be translated as Public/公 Security/安　Section/課 in English. I recommand you to use 公安課. And 内庁 (naichō) is a shortened form of 内閣情報庁 (naikaku jōhō chō) and it seems to be translated as the Cabinet/内閣 Intelligence/情報 Service/庁. Do the words sound right? Sorry that I know almost nothing about the animation and its fictional world. Hope my post helps you. If you want to know something more, just ask me. Oda Mari 09:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I would like to suggest the translations used in the Region 1 (USA) DVDs for the shows. As Oda Mari said, 内庁 (Naichō) is short for 内閣情報庁 (Naikaku Jōhō Chō). Cabinet Intelligence Service is what is used. As for Hoanka, it`s supposed to be 公安部9課 (Kōanbu Kyūka) or Public Security Bureau, Section 9 under the Ministry of Home Affairs. NB: in reality, Naichō is 内調, short for 内閣 情報 調査室 (Naikaku Jōhō Chōsashitsu) or the Cabinet Intelligence and Research Office, the best Japanese intelligence service that reports only to the Prime Minister. As for 公安部9課 (Kōanbu Kyūka), there is a real Public Security Intelligence Agency that is charged with investigating terrorism and while falling under Justice Minister`s administration, they operate independently and are only responsible to the National Public Security Commission. While the real one has 1st and 2nd departments, there is no Section 9. Also, the Ministry of Home Affairs no longer exists, having been disbanded in 1947. Ninja138 06:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It's 公安9課. This is the ja.WP article. [1] And the Ministry of Home Affairs is 内務省. Public Security Bureau is probably 公安部. Oda Mari 16:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Please compare the en. article Public Security Section 9. Oda Mari 16:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I just noticed there are above-mentioned two closely-related categories. Question: do we need them separately, really? Technically-speaking, of course, not every Japanese film is a Japanese-language film, and the converse fails as well, Letters from Iwo Jima being the primary example. I'm, though, unaware of any Japanese film that is a entirely non-Japanese language film. Anyway, the problem arises because "Japanese" ambiguously refers to things-related to the nation and language. This is an old news, but I guess I want to hear if anyone has thoughts on this. -- Taku 04:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I can see some value in having them as two separate categories. Japanese films is obviously for films produced in Japan (or by Japanese companies). Japanese-language films can include such movies as Letters from Iwo Jima, The Last Samurai, Midway, and so on. These were not produced in Japan or by Japanese companies, so they wouldn't be in the first cat. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

That makes sense enough. --Hirohisat ^Kiwi 06:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I would go on to say that any film in the first category is assumed to be in Japanese, and should therefore not be in the second cat. Perhaps the first cat should be a subcat of the second? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

No I don't think so, or other wise opposite way around. Japanese-language films could belong in Japanese films because the later could mean something like Japan related films. --Hirohisat ^Kiwi 07:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

This reminds me of a discussion a short time ago about "Category:Films shot in Japan". I unfortunately cannot seem to find the discussion to link to it, but essentially the core of it was that the category assumed that it was talking about American films shot in Japan and needed to describe that more explicitly in its title, as the vast majority of films produced by Japanese companies are filmed in Japan. The American films shot there would be lost in the shuffle if everything filmed in Japan were listed together, and so a separate "Foreign films shot in Japan" category was created.

Similarly, for this case I think that we have basically two options: (1) Make "Japanese films" a subcat of "Japanese-language films", under the assumption that all films produced by Japanese companies contain some significant element of Japanese language, or (2) that we keep the two separate, not subcats of one another, and rename "Japanese-language films" to something which more explicitly describes the category as relating to foreign (non-Japanese-made) films. Iwo Jima, Last Samurai, Lost in Translation, Midway, should be described as "American films in Japanese language" or "Japanese language films produced by American companies" or something like that. LordAmeth 22:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, something like Category:Foreign-made Japanese-language films, which is going to include "Letters from", "Lost in" etc, instead of having Category:Japanese-language films. I agree with Hirohisat in that (1) would be strange because there are categories like Category:American films, Category:Indian films, etc, and it would be strange if there is no Category:Japanese films. So, (2) was looking good to me, but then I noticed that there is Category:Films by language, so, again, it would be strange if the category didn't have a subcategory for Japanese-language. I feel like this is something we shouldn't be messing with. Anyway, thinks for the feedback. -- Taku 08:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Notice: There is a current "request for comments" at the Visual kei page. Denaar 05:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I have a bunch of Japanese names in romaji but I also want them in kanji. I have no idea how kanji is pronounced in Japanese, so after googling and wikipediaing, I have some names and some partial names and some nothing at all. Could someone take a look at the list below and fill it in, and correct me if I'm wrong. They're all Japanese generals, BTW. -- Миборовский 23:43, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

• 20th Corps; Ichiro Anzai 板西一良

• 34th Division; Yoshio Ban
• 47th Division; Nagashi Watanabe 渡辺??
• 68th Division; Mikio Tsutsumi 堤??
• 116th Division; Ginnosuke Uchida 内田銀之助

The Chinese Wikipedia has an article on 板西一良 but it does not give pronunciation. The Japanese Wikipedia mentions 内田銀之助 in a couple of articles (第20師団 (日本軍) and 第118師団 (日本軍)). Fg2 01:55, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Mikio Tsutsumi is "堤 三樹男". Other two person is found as similar notation in this table[2], but it is not completely in agreement. Additional information, such as short career, is needed. --Nightshadow28 02:58, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. All were commanders in the Japanese 20th Corps and its subordinate divisions; the time was April 1945 (Showa 20, IIRC). I've updated my list above to show who was in charge of which division. -- Миборовский 04:20, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

34th Division; Yoshio Ban is 伴 健雄. Oda Mari 05:45, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

As for 20th Corps; Ichiro Anzai 板西一良, I think it's not 板, but 坂. So the right name is 坂西　一良. Anzai? I am not sure but it may be Sakanishi. Oda Mari 06:46, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, his name is Ichiro Banzai! See this. Oda Mari 07:11, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Oda Mari is right. Ichirō Banzai (坂西 一良) (1891 - 1946), Lieutenant General (中将), Commander of the 20th Army. He died in Shanghai on September 1946. Source: Hata, Ikuhiko. Nihon Riku-Kaigun sōgō jiten. Tōkyō: Tōkyō Daigaku Shuppankai, 2005, p.131, ISBN 9784130301350. --Nightshadow28 09:58, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

As for 47th Division; Nagashi Watanabe 渡辺, I think it's 渡辺 洋. See 47th Division/第四十七師団. Oda Mari 10:21, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

• 34th Division; Yoshio Ban (伴 健雄), from Mar 25th 1943 to ending of the war.
• 47th Division; 渡辺 洋, from Oct 26th 1944 to ending of the war.
• 68th Division; Mikio Tsutsumi (堤 三樹男), from July 1st 1944 to ending of the war.
• 118th Division; Ginnosuke Uchida (内田銀之助), from July 14th 1944 to ending of the war.

Source: Kin-gendaishi hensan-kai, "Rikugun shidan sōran". Tōkyō: Shin jinbutsu ōrai sha, 2000, pp.165-166, 201-202, 210 and 227-228, ISBN 9784404028839.[3] Unlike Hata's book, this source does not have kana (ruby) for person's name. Because this is the first time that I read aloud 洋 as Nagashi, I have suspended about Watanabe's romaji. --Nightshadow28 13:47, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused. Please see these. [4] and [5]. Hiroshi and Takeo! Other three's pages are [6], [7]. and [8]. Oda Mari 07:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, above-mentioned page is usefully. Their kanji (family) names and posts have been already matched. So they need to compare names with Миборовский's source (in English?), and decide. --Nightshadow28 13:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, both of you. So the names are: Yoshio Ban is 伴 健雄 (BTW, is it the convention to separate the family and given name?) and Mikio Tsutsumi is 堤 三樹男. My English source gives Ichiro Anzai as commander of 20軍團 (sorry don't know how to type the simplified Japanese form), but it wouldn't be the first time it got Japanese name transliterations wrong, and my Chinese sources give his name as 板西一良, possibly because 坂 is rarely used in Chinese? 坂西一良 also gets more google hits. I'm willing to trust Nightshadow's Japanese source more when it comes to Japanese names and their pronunciation, haha. So Ichiro Banzai is 坂西一良. 47師團 was commanded by 渡辺 洋, but is the romaji transliteration Nagashi Watanabe? There seems to be a dispute about that and I don't really know what's going on. Ginnosuke Uchida led the 118師團 not the 116師團... my source (the "Anzai" one) has him listed in the orbat leading the 116師團. Checked further sources and turns out the 118師團 surrendered in Beiping... too far from Hunan where they ought to have been in April-June 1945... An additional source confirmed that it was the 116師團 that was in Hunan, and the Japanese wiki has 菱田元四郎 as its commander from March 9 Showa 20 onward, so it should check out. But what's the guy's romaji name? And could one of you provide a source indicating this command of his? I would like another source so I have something to show that one of my sources was incorrect in this regard. -- Миборовский 03:01, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

板西 would be Itanishi, while 坂西 would be Sakanishi; both could be read "Hanzai/Banzai", but neither one is "Anzai". I figure Anzai would be 安西 or 安斉, but neither one gets any hits combined with the given name. (never mind, I see you figured this out above already). Oh yeah, 坂 isn't even in Big5, so your guess on why the Chinese source shows 板西 is probably right. cab 04:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

As for 菱田元四郎, his name is 元四郎/Motoshirō 菱田/Hishida. See this. The page says he was born on June 13, 1890 and died in 1952. He became the commander of the 116th 師団 on March 9, 1945. To answer your question above, yes, it's the convention to separate the family and given name, as far as I'm concerned. Oda Mari 05:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

You can see the history of the 116th/第百十六 師団 commonders here. And they were in 湖南省 when the war ended. Down below on the page, you can see the 118th/第百十八 師団. The division was a new one, organized on July 10, 1944 in 北支那 and they were in 張家口 at the end of the war. The commander was Ginnosuke Uchida. Oda Mari 05:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

This page shows you where the Japanese army divisions were at the end of war. Oda Mari 05:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Should be correct, then. Very useful website, there. Миборовский 06:13, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I relisted. For showing clearly a relation of "kanji - kana - romaji", I write as family name (1st) - given name (2nd).

• 20th Army; 坂西 一良 / ばんざい いちろう / BANZAI Ichirō - I trust a description by Hata's ruby character. When it is a error, let's throw a pie to the Tokyo University together.
• 34th Division; 伴 健雄 / ばん たけお (よしお?) / BAN Takeo (Yoshio?) - It has a confliction at given name with this[9] and Миборовский's source. Although I think that "Takeo" is more popular and used in today than "Yoshio", it may be considered that it has not been supporting in English source. It is a good idea to write this thing in article's discussion page until finding another English source.
• 47th Division; 渡辺 洋 / わたなべ ひろし / WATANABE Hiroshi (Nagashi?) - He also has a difference between this[10] and Миборовский's source. However, since it is a little incongruous to read this kanji as "Nagashi", "Hiroshi" is more advantageous. And there was a general who has a name "渡辺 直知". If I read "直知", it is "Nao-chi" (or "Nao-tomo"). Possibly, it may be confusion to this person.
• 68th Division; 堤 三樹男 / つつみ みきお / TSUTSUMI Mikio - No problem.
• 116th Division; 菱田 元四郎 / ひしだ もとしろう / HISHIDA Motoshirō - It is confirmed by Oda Mari's source.
• 118th Division; 内田 銀之助 / うちだ ぎんのすけ / UCHIDA Ginnosuke - No problem.

As mentioned above, as a summary and reply. --Nightshadow28 15:27, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Is there no standard pronunciation for 伴 健雄 and 渡辺 洋? Are Takeo and Hiroshi correct transliterations, just one of two, or are they wrong altogether? How would their names be pronounced in Japanese? Миборовский 21:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I can't tell the correct transliterations of the names. Because they are proper nouns. Takeo and Hiroshi are the major transliterations/pronunciations. But other transliterations/pronunciations are possible. If you see a person named 渋谷, you can't tell if the name is Shibuya or Shibutani until what he/she pronounces the name. Oda Mari 05:09, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Could someone put Kosei Ono's kanji name in the article? My computer doesn't read kanji. Is there a page to request kanji-fying of an article's title? --Montchav 18:03, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

 Done --Hirohisat ^Kiwi 18:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

And to answer your second question, you can post requests here and they'll usually get handled quickly. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 20:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Can someone who is experienced with the "fair use" rules for images take a look at Stand Up!! (talk page) please? All images there have been tagged for deletion. I'm okay with removing the images if there's no other way, but I'd prefer someone knowledgeable to look over them first. --Darkstar 13:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm planning on creating an infobox-style template that is similar to {{chinese}}, to appear in the upper right corner of articles that focus on a Japanese term, providing fields for linguistic information. Because I am hardly a Japanese scholar, and I know there are very knowledgable people here, I wanted to run some ideas by you folks. At the outset, unlike {{chinese}}, the template will contain only Japanese (I'll worry about expanding it later, if there is a reason to do so). The purpose would be to comprehensively indicate the linguistic treatment of the term, much as {{chinese}} does, with 17 separate fields for permutation of the word in Chinese alone (many more for foriegn languages). I propose the following fields, the parameters for all of which would be optional (actual text proposed to be included as follows; descriptions appearing in parentheses not to be shown in template):

• Kanji (if no difference between kyujitai and shinjitai)
• Shinjitai
• Kyūjitai
• Hiragana
• Historical kana (this seems like a terrible way to name this field; can anyone propose a better one, and is this field really necessary for completeness?)

Transliterations [hide/show]

• Revised Hepburn
• Traditional Hepburn
• Kunrei-shiki
• Nihon-shiki

All of these fields, except for "historical kana", currently appear within the Japanese section of {{chinese}}. Also, would it be useful to have a field for katakana? Any comments or suggestions would be helpful. I'd like the template to be as scholarly, and technical as possible. As a secondary matter, is there anyone who would oppose moving the current {{Japanese}} to {{Japanese script}} to allow this template to live there? Bradford44 13:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, general consensus at WP:MOS-JA is that {{nihongo}} is suffice and we don't need a language infobox for Japan-related articles. --Kusunose 15:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I had a much longer response typed out and I accidentally deleted it... Nevertheless, I will say simply that I don't think those discussions are conclusive (given their age or tangential nature), and more importantly, I propose this box only for terms without a more specific infobox. See Rice congee and Qi for good examples of the chinese template. Currently, the infobox might be useful to have at articles such as kizeme, maai, tsuki, aiki (martial arts principle), and other articles which are about concepts expressed by Japanese terms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradford44 (talk • contribs) 15:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Kusunose. We discussed this point. I believe the result was that we do not want such a box. Fg2 20:42, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Ouch, that thing is an eyesore. It seems like a lot of unnecessary minutia better suited to Wiktionary. -Amake 00:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Fg2, Kusunose, and Amake: that box is not really necessary here. It would be better suited to Wiktionary for individual words. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 00:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

So do you think that {{Chinese}} should be Afd'd for violating WP:NOT#DICT? Bradford44 01:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

For articles with multiple local place names containing Chinese and/or Korean (WP:NCGN recommends to list relevant local names), multilingual language infobox may look better than list of local names in prose littered with alternative transliterations. But I don't think we need those minute parameters for Japanese. As done with {{nihongo}}, what we really need is a word in the Japanese script (be it kanji, hiragana or katakana) and transliterated (Hepburn romanization per MOS-JA) only. Details such as differences between old and new kanji forms or romanizations should be covered in dictionary. --Kusunose 01:56, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, what Kusunose wrote. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 02:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Just adding my agreement with Kusunose, Nihonjoe, etc. BilabialBoxing —Preceding unsigned comment added by BilabialBoxing (talk • contribs) 02:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Sinzitai and/or (modern) kana will anyway be provided, probably via the "nihongo" template. It may very occasionally be helpful also to provide kyûzitai and/or kyûkanadukai. Problems with kyûzitai are that there may be more than one, there may be more than one widely-used pre-standardization simplified form (consider the prestandard alternatives to 画, e.g. 田 within ニ), and that they may be hard to type in if available at all. The other fields just seem pointless: Anyone interested can infer Kunreisiki and Nihonsiki from the kana. I arrogantly rate my knowledge of Hepburn as at least as high as that of the average adult Japanese person (though not as high as other people writing here), and yet I have great trouble remembering what WP means by "revised" and "traditional" Hepburn; I'd hate to feel obligated to remind myself before tinkering with any article on a Japanese term. (Actually I wouldn't bother to write this stuff in. But I might feel obligated to check what others had written.) And the whole affair would take a lot of space in the article and suggest that the article was written by and for obsessives. -- Hoary 02:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, I will refrain from creating a template for Japanese terms. Bradford44 18:09, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I am a frequent editor of Akatsuki (Naruto), and am currently in need of help with the article's sources. The article is sourced up the wazoo, so there's nothing wrong with a lack of per se. The problem is that there is little in terms of third party sources. Since the majority of the topic has yet to be officially translated into English, there is a severe absence of coverage by reliable English bodies. What little there is to be found in terms of reception/conception/so on only exists on fansites and forums, mediums that are unsuitable as sources. As such, I ask that someone who knows Japanese help with finding Japanese sources on the topic. Appraisals of the organization and its goals, how the members of the organization have been received by the world at large, and anything that qualifies as out of universe information would be greatly appreciated. Anyone willing to help is free to reply here where I will respond or on the article's talk page where a broader array of editors can be found. Thank you. ~SnapperTo 23:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

You're asking for reliable sources regarding a "fictional organization of criminal ninja"? Good luck. Jpatokal 02:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. Aren't there more worthwhile things you could be editing? Frankly I think it's sad that some of the longest and most detailed articles on Wikipedia are about anime minutia that have zero importance in the real world. -Amake 03:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Importance is in the eye of the beholder. One could argue that Björn Engquist is of little significance to the real world, though those who edit his article and members of Wikipedia:WikiProject Texas might disagree for whatever reason. The amount of coverage fictional topics receive, however, I will agree with. ~SnapperTo 04:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but Björn Engquist is a real person, and Texas is an actual place. Though I had never heard of Mr. Engquist, from reading the brief article on him and his life, I can confidently say that he has had more of an impact on the real world than Akatsuki (Naruto), which deals with a fictional organization in a fictional work that is known only to a small number of hardcore nerds. -Amake 05:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

You may have better luck asking over at WikiProject Anime and manga. I agree that finding acceptable sources regarding a group of fictional criminal ninjas is going to be a tough one, regardless of Japanese reading ability. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I considered that, but I was directed here by an admin and thought he might have had a reason for doing so. I shall seek better fortunes there. ~SnapperTo 04:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I personally don't see a problem with detailed anime articles -- it seems natural to devote a lot of effort into what one is interested in, whether it's 1970's anime or Turco-Persian war history or Kansai-region Japanophilia or whatever. Anyways, I can lend a hand with the Akatsuki stuff, at least until Fall term starts (in 2 1/2 weeks). One warning, I'm not current with the series, I stopped reading around Orochimaru's death arc... By the way, from what I understand you're trying to get more 3rd party information on the reception of the general Japanese public to Akatsuki and its members? Konamaiki 05:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

You aren't that far behind; the remaining members have been revealed, but that's about it. And your understanding is correct. Anything that would qualify as out of universe information would be gladly welcomed. Interviews with Masashi Kishimoto that explain why he gave a character an ability he did, anime episode or manga volume reviews that point out how clichéd world domination in a work of fiction is, etc. Thanks ahead of time for anything you find. ~SnapperTo 05:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

There is some duplication between the above two. Since the second article (JST) is short, to me it makes sense to merge it to the first, but I would like to know if anyone else has an opinion before doing that. -- Taku 00:18, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Half the information in Time in Japan duplicates Japanese calendar, and I wonder if it's worth keeping. JST is only one name for the time zone. Maybe merge both to UTC+9? Not sure what's best. Fg2 01:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be fine to merge the JST article into TiJ, and then redirect it. Just have a section about JST in the article. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 01:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a category for time by country so maybe keeping Time in Japan as both Taku and Nihonjoe proposed is best. Fg2 01:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm the article JST is short so I understand you want to merge it to the other article. But there is also a category Category:Time zones where we find much shorter articles. JST as timezone is a subject worthy to keep as is, I think. --Aphaia 01:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

In comparison, Time in China, for example, has sections for each time zone (if they are historical), strengthening the argument for merger. However, there is no Time in Korea (or Time in South Korea), so an article of this kind may not be caught on yet. Indeed, there is no article linking Time in Japan [11] aside from JST. I agree that JST is an important topic and can be expanded greatly, judging from the corresponding article in ja wiki. So what to do. I guess, my problem is that I fail to see the potential growth of Time in Japan. As Fg2 observed, it basically discusses the two topic, calendar and timezone, both of which are covered by standalone articles right now. My revised proposal: why don't we move the materials in TiJ to corresponding articles and delete it or redirect it to, umm, Japan? -- Taku 03:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

A question: Are historical ways of hour counting subjects of Time in Japan? If so, you can expand it, even a bit. --Aphaia 06:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

That information is in Japanese clock. Fg2 06:17, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, so redirect or disambiguation ...? --Aphaia 08:03, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I just wanted to point out this developing article, the history of East Asia, for people who are passionate about Japanese history. While Japan is quite unique, it shares some of its history with its mainland neighbors. See history of Europe for comparison. Common elements in the history of East Asia might include:

• the arrival of Buddhism from South Asia / India, and eventually Japan
• Taoism and Confucianism and its spread to Japan
• Neo-confucianism in the "middle ages" -- did this effect Japan?
• the Mandate of Heaven in China, and the reaction of Japanese rulers
• any similarities between the Chinese civil service and the organization some governments in feudal Japan
• the advent of the stirrup and the arrival of the Mongols in the region
• the invention of gunpowder
• the invention of the printing press
• the arrival of the European powers, and its effect on technology, diplomacy (e.g.: the mandate of heaven), philosophy, etc.
• any notable wars that helped shape the region

I hope we can all work together to improve this article. 64.231.193.236 16:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you to separate this theme into two, even if both are written in a same article at last. 1) East Asian History without Japan 2) East Asian History including Japan. Due to geographical conditions, Korean Peninsula had a tighter and older relationships with China than Japan islands has had, so there are many things which affected China and Korean, but not Japan. As for notable wars, I would point out three wars in 7th (China[Tang] & Gokuryo vs Japan & Beijke), 12th (China[Yuan/Mongol] & Korea vs Japan) and 16th (China[Ming] & Korea vs Japan). --Aphaia 12:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

That definitely makes sense. While the article is about East Asia, it should be careful to make blanket statements. If something was confined to one part of East Asia, and excluded another part, it should say so. I know Japan was isolated from mainland China for a long time, in many ways. The same way that we can speak of the arrival of the Mongols in the region, we can also talk about growing contact between Japan and China.

However, organization and categories are less of an issue at this point. The real issue, this early in the article's life, is content. Those notable wars might help though, and I'm going to try to add them right now -- for what little I know about them. 64.231.193.236 16:39, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello Wikipedians, the backlog at Wikipedia:Requested articles/Japan is getting very heavy. Maybe we should try to make it one of our goals? --Hirohisat ^Kiwi 00:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

There are various kinds of article requests listed on that page. First, I found a few red links but the articles already existed under different titles, so I made redirects. Second, many have blue links to the Japanese Wikipedia, but there's no article with that title on the Japanese Wikipedia. This can make it harder to find information about the topics. A third category of request is for a small topic that perhaps should be part of a larger article, as it is in Japanese in some cases. Fourth, there are some blue links. And fifth, of course, there are lots of suggestions for brand-new articles on a broad range of subjects. Fg2 02:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

That list is always growing and shrinking, constantly in somewhat of a flux. Given that Wikipedia only keeps growing in popularity, the odds are that more and more articles will be requested. We're making them as fast as we can, but I suspect that list will grow faster than we can make the articles requested. Not to mention the issues that Fg2 mentioned. (^_^) ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 02:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

maybe the group needs to be split? I know some other geographical groups have done that. 64.231.193.236 02:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

It may be that the pages needs to be further split into appropriate sections. However, as I indicated above, I see articles being removed and added there somewhat regularly. Not daily, but regularly. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Kimono was listed as a b-class article despite never having had any sources at all; I have one source, Liza Dalby's Kimono, and have gone through adding citations, but if anyone else has sources, please, come on by, let's get this up to GA Kuronue | Talk 02:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

In fact, I found the article in its sorry state when I was looking for information on something different - maybe we should put together a clothing task force? Kuronue | Talk 02:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I would be supportive of that. Chris 04:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure there would be enough for a taskforce, but I'd be willing to support the idea if there were enough articles. Can you list 40-50 articles that would fall under this taskforce? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:23, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

We could make the task force and set a goal to make certain articles. --Hirohisat ^Kiwi 05:31, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

True. I just want to make sure there's enough to keep a taskforce going for at least a year. Otherwise I don't know that it's worth the bother to organize it. (^_^) ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

ja:Category:和服 (jawiki category "Japanese Clothes") contains 117 articles, while many of them would be better to handle in merger here. Just for your information. --Aphaia 12:06, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention the Kimono article alone lists Nagajūban, Hadajūban, Susoyoke, Haori, Haori-himo, Obi-ita, Datejime, and Koshi himo as clothing items which have no more than a few lines in the context of the larger article (not even their own segments of an article, just a few lines). Kuronue | Talk 05:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay. As I said, I'm not against it; I just wanted to make sure there was enough work to justify the trouble to create one. I would create it at Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan/Clothing taskforce (or, if you wanted to expand the scope a little bit, Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan/Textiles taskforce). ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I have made a new feed for the New Article bot. The bot reads all the new articles for a day and puts suspected Japan-related articles into User:AlexNewArtBot/JapanSearchResult, the articles are suppose to be manually put into the portal page and/or removed if irrelevant. Or whatever you want to do with them.

The list of rules are in User:AlexNewArtBot/Japan, there is also the log on the User:AlexNewArtBot/JapanLog explaining the rules that sent an article to the search results (the log is cleared every day, so try to look into the history of the log). Please contact me if you are interested in the fine tuning of the rules

That is all. Any suggestions are welcome. Alex Bakharev 04:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Yoshio Kojima has been nominated for deletion on the grounds of lack of notability at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yoshio Kojima, I don't really know anything on this topic only what can be found at ja:小島よしお and from google, any light on this topic would be welcome. Thanks. KTo288 14:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Please help to add kana signs to Arthur Ransome Club, it has some untidy Romaji at the moment. Yoroshiku onegaishimasu Nankai 04:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

 DoneOda Mari 04:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Thought people might like to participate in this move request: Hane Goshi → Hane goshi. Please discuss here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradford44 (talk • contribs) 19:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I've update the Participant list to include the new taskforces added and merged within the last month or two. Please check your entry to make sure it's still correct. Thank you for helping out with the project and its growing list of articles. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 01:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

To make it easier for people to get to the talk pages of various taskforces and descendant projects, I created that header way up at the top. Let me know what you think. It may make things easier for people to notice the taskforces, too. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 02:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

It looks good, while it's a bid wider than my preferences/settings (I employ always a side window for searching on my SeaMonkey). I'd be happier if they are in two columns instead of current three. --Aphaia 06:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I tried. Is that better? I can't seem to make the talk archive table be centered, though. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, it's much better, while the right box (for talks) seems to be placed in too much right (and 1/3 out of the screen) for me. I tried to fix it, but I have no idea how to do it... --Aphaia 08:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

What is a SeaMonkey? I'm aware of the Mozilla software, and the little brine shrimp, but the way your are writing it sounds like it's some sort of handheld device. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 00:23, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

SeaMonkey is what was called "Mozilla Suite" formerly, and roughly similar with early Mozilla built. --Aphaia 11:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

See SeaMonkey. I couldn't resist myself. Remember what wikipedia is for?. -- Taku 23:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi all, the sources for this topic are nearly all in Japanese, which the article's main author doesn't read and write. He has used the best English sources, but they are very few. It would be much better if someone that reads Japanese could assess and use some of the best Japanese sources. m:User:Aphaia was kind enough to search these up http://webcat.nii.ac.jp/cgi-bin/shsproc?id=BN01755311 and http://webcatplus-equal.nii.ac.jp/libportal/EqualFromForm?hdn_if_lang=jpn&select_dmax=10&txt_author=%E8%A5%BF%E5%B1%B1%E8%89%AF%E5%B9%B3&check_japanese=off she also mentioned trying "ryohei nishioka as keyword of author ... he is supposed to be the best authority of this theme". Thank you - Taxman ^Talk 14:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I've now been able to find full bibliographical data for the main Japanese reference on the Palace mentioned in the English-language sources used in the article. This has now been added in the Further readings section in the article. Additional references of course welcome. Thanks for the help. Stca74 08:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I was glazing over the content of the Cosplay restaurant, which covers the recent boom of "maid cafes," but it seemed to me that we might be a little lacking of related topics. The notability of maid cafes over run-of-the-mill places is in large part the change in the social rules between the server and customer, i.e. being more naka yoku and not using typical formal speech. In particular, いらっしゃいません replaced by お帰りなさい and that sort of thing.

But these aren't the only places that have done this! I have before been to something called "mama" restaurants (I think) before. So there'll be a middle aged lady running it, who will do the お帰りなさい bit and whatnot. You can still address the server as Okaasan (which I just fond weird).

But anyway, I haven't been able to find much very specific information on this subject, all I can really say is that I've been to one. But I think it would be good to provide more overarching content on the general topic of special restaurants in Japan. But firstly, does anyone know what I'm talking about? -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

You mean the tiny family-run places? I would say the level of familiarity you describe depends on the person that runs the place, more than anything. (Also, allow me to correct you - it's not いらっしゃいません, it's いらっしゃいませ :) On a side note, I would find it more than strange if I walked into a restaurant for the first time ever, and the staff welcomed me with お帰りなさい... TomorrowTime 08:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Is this image: [12] valid to add to the Nobutaka Machimura article, or does the AP/World Wide Photo note undo the PD status of the picture? -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I take it the photo is provided fair use ... it is apparently credited. --Aphaia 14:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I'm still not sure one way or another for that one. But I did find others, so look at his article. -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:16, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

We should really try and improve the Template:Infobox Japanese Political Party, first of all there needs to be an option for defunct parties and also make so that not the whole template appers even if you have not filled in some parameters. --Jonte-- 15:25, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I just realized that this article is not tagged as part of WP:JPN, and additionally, is completely unreferenced. Just thought you'd like to know. Bradford44 22:33, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I put a {{WikiProject Japan}} template on it for starters. Fg2 22:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

While we're talking about Hepburn romanization, I've been wondering what the protocol is on "ou" combinations that are not necessarily long vowels, such as when the vowels are part of different kanji. Ōchi, Saga is a good example. The kanji is 相知. Should it be Ōchi or Ouchi? BilabialBoxing 07:00, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

We discussed that extensively at Talk:Ōme, Tokyo and Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)/misc5#How should Wikipedia write 青梅　(おうめ)? More broadly, how should WP handle vowels in adjacent kanji?. I think there was consensus for this: When the "o" and the "u" arise from different kanji, or okurigana, use "ou" or "uu" instead of macrons.

So Ōita and Kyūshū get macrons since the double vowels are, in each case, in individual kanji. Hiroo Station gets a double o since there are two kanji involved. Shimousa Province gets an o-u because the first kanji contributes the shimo and the usa comes from the second. In Ōchi, 知 is a regular reading for "chi" and the only place for the rest to come from is the single kanji 相. So I'd agree to the macron here. Ōme, Tokyo is an irregular reading of the pair of kanji. Fg2 07:40, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, great. I agree. An actually I thought that the okurigana for Ōchi was different, which is why I asked the question in the first place. But good to know! However, while those backlogged discussions are fascinating and helpful, I can't seem to find any mention of this stuff (true long vowels versus "long vowels" made by separate kanji) on the MOS or the Hepburn page. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place? BilabialBoxing 08:44, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello all. I've been working on cleaning up municipality articles, and after discussing some points of style with other users I added some passages to WP:MOS-JA and to WPJ Districts and municipalities. The items specifically cover:

• Municipality suffixes like "City", "Town", etc.
• Japanese addresses and their proper romaji notation
• Geodata best practices

Comments, suggestions, corrections, etc. are of course welcome. -Amake 02:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Amake, I'm all in favor of the municipality suffix provisions. I would add one more: "Island." One of my pet peeves is the expression "Honshu Island" (and the same for Hokkaido, Kyushu, and Shikoku); "the island of Honshu" sounds much more natural. By analogy, it sounds very awkward to write that London is on Great Britain Island, or that Dublin is on Ireland Island. The same form can be used for smaller islands as well: Okinawa, Sado, Iki, and Tsushima come to mind. (But I would not change the title of Okinawa Island.) Opinions? Fg2 02:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Cheers to these additions. We've needed them for a long time. BilabialBoxing 05:06, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for adding those. I used to live in an Ōaza area. (^_^) ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:46, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I added a note on Tokyo City that it should be an exception. -- Taku 21:31, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

This language on address needs a clarification:

• Include, but do not translate, suffixes such as -ken, -shi, -chō, -gun.

So this means we use Hokkai-do as opposed to Hokkaido? Also, how should a post code be put? After the address or before?

By the way, this is a right call, I think; we definitely need some standardization on this sort of matter. -- Taku 21:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I have a question about naming local elections in Japan. Until now I have been naming election as "City local election, year" but I feel this format is not very good. I've been thinking about "City municipal election, year" instead. Do you have any other suggestions? Example: Inagi local election, 2007 --Jonte-- 18:03, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

The only suggestion I have is to put the year at the beginning in order to avoid a comma in the title: 2007 Inagi local election. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 00:50, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

How about 2007 Inagi election? The body of the article describes it as local or something else; it may not have to be in the title. Fg2 01:17, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, using a comma is a standard for elections on wikipedia, for example Swedish general election, 2006. The problem with only having 2007 Inagi election is that there are instances when prefectures and citys share the same name. Perhaps the easiest will be Inagi city election, 2007. --Jonte-- 08:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

So, I tried the City city election, year as seen in Higashiōsaka city election, 2007, perhaps even adding city assembly would do it? --Jonte-- 21:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Free-Will has allegedly been involved in legal trouble. There have been no convictions reported. Current consensous is to keep the information brief, and base it off the English resources that everyone can read, as the information will continue to change. One user feels the information should be put in full detail, on every band page for the company (for a total of 9 articles all about this news item). The argument is less about it's inclusion on Free-Will, and more about the accompanying band pages, which one user is for, and at least 3 users are against. Further input would be appreciated. Effected pages are: Kagerou (band), Kannivalism, The Gazette (band), Baroque (band), Kagrra, Dir en grey, Alice Nine‎, and Miyavi. There may be more pages involved that I am missing. Denaar 01:46, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Some legal cases merit separate articles. Is this one significant enough? Fg2 01:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

None of the news reports have enough information to write a full article yet. It's basically two paragraphs right now. The Nikkei Weekly posted the story in Japanese, but didn't translate the story into English, even though they have an English version of their site. I'm also not sure how widespread the coverage has been, it seems it was all reported on one day (when the story broke) without follow up. I'm not knowledgeable about the guidelines for article inclusion of News Stories in WP, but someone else is free to check it out. (Info is on the FW page). Denaar 02:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I moved Eisei Amamoto to Hideyo Amamoto because that is his real name, but it was swiftly moved back to Eisei Amamoto and I think Eisei is inaccurate. I am really not happy with this move. On the Japanese wikipedia website at ja:天本英世, his name is read as Hideyo Amamoto, so I feel that it is necessary to move it back there. Can anyone help me out? Thanks. Greg Jones II 21:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The ja: article says he used Eisei Amamoto as his stage name for a while. What's the policy on stage name vs. real name for celebrities? I see, for example, that Cher (the only example I could think of off the top of my head) is located at Cher but the article begins with her real name. -Amake 00:21, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd say leave it at Eisei Amamoto, per Amkae's comments re: Cher. -- Exitmoose 00:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Greg Jones II 01:29, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The article for Yasuo Fukuda, the new prime minster of Japan is in need of some serious work to bring it up to the standards expected of an article about a serving head of government. Most needed at the moment is a free (no fair use) image of him. The lead also needs to be expanded. Any other help that could be given would be well appreciated. -- Exitmoose 07:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, I've been trying to flesh out the articles on each minister of state. I'm having trouble finding exactly how many times they were elected and whether they've switched seats, who their predecessors are, etc. All of the following are ministers of state for this cabinet: Masahiko Kōmura, Kunio Hatoyama, Akira Amari, Yōichi Masuzoe, Fukushiro Nukaga, Shigeru Ishiba, Ichiro Kamoshita, Tetsuzo Fuyushiba, Masatoshi Wakabayashi, Kisaburō Tokai, Hiroya Masuda, and Nobutaka Machimura amongst a few others. Please fact check and expand these articles if you're looking for something to work on. -- Exitmoose 08:57, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

These articles each have a table listing cabinet members over the course of their respective terms. I think they add a good deal to the article, but the font is too big and the tables are a bit obtrusive. Does anyone know enough about wikitables to be able to shrink the font down a bit, as in Yoshiro Mori? -- Exitmoose 02:31, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

You can change the first line in the table to class="wikitable" style="font-size: 80%;" to achieve the font reduction. Neier 11:46, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

As "the use of the term fascism in relation to Japan is contentious and disputed" (quoted from Japanese fascism), I don't think it's necessarily appropriate to label any and every Japanese involved in the government or military at the time - even the most high-up officials - a "fascist".

I think this is an important thing for us to get a handle on, and to establish standards or guidelines about. Please offer your thoughts on the matter at Category talk:Japanese fascists. LordAmeth 03:36, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely. There are certain specific members of the pre-war Japanese government and military who promoted European-style fascism, or attempted to create a similar system modified for use in Japan. However, it appears that the Category:Japanese fascists is being misused recently by certain editors as a POV forum to label warime or prewar biographies of Japanese indiscriminately. Use of the category should be supported by evidence in the article in question, and misuse should be construed as vandalism and reverted. --MChew 03:46, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Definitely agree. The category should be used sparingly. John Smith's 10:06, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I've taken Miyamoto Iori, which had had a cleanup tag on it for nearly a year, and pared it down from what seemed to be possibly apocryphal tales to a two-line stub. Can anyone find anything worth keeping among the material I deleted? Fg2 04:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't really know anything about the subject, and so I cannot unfortunately add anything of true historical fact to the article. Still, that said, I would suggest trying to recoup any/all of the deleted content and representing it as the legend and myth it is. Just because a story isn't true doesn't mean that the story itself is not a worthwhile historical/cultural/literary topic of interest. Do we have any solid reputable sources that describe these stories, their origins, and/or development? LordAmeth 12:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

It might be myth or it might even be true. I'm just not sure it's encyclopedic. Looking at the Japanese Wikipedia, I suspect the story might have come from Niten-ki. If anyone has access to that work, they might be able to confirm that the story is either true or an authentic legend. And then maybe it would belong in Wikisource or another related project. But these are just musings. If other people have different opinions, I'm open to other ways of dealing with this. George Washington does mention the cherry tree... . Fg2 21:18, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I prefer Fg2's suggested approach, George Washington alike. We should make a new section, separated description from the historical existence, so "Iori adopted in fictional works" ... As Japanese Wikipedia states, the contemporary researches determine Iori as a nephew of Musashi. It is so described in the genealogy their decendants have heired (小倉宮本家系図) and match activities of Iori himself.

In other words, the historical correctness of Niten-ki is today dubious. It was written one hundred ago after his death, and the author had no actual relation to Musashi or his successors (they served different domains) and thus no access to contemporary documents.

--Aphaia 05:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)