Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/July 2017

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I thought about being bold and moving this stuff but Wikipedia uses Sunpu not Sumpu for the Sumpu Castle. I live here and nearly everything is Sumpu. Any preferences? LordAtlas (talk) 02:28, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@LordAtlas: There are three romanisation styles, Hepburn, Kunrei-shiki, and Nihon-shiki. Kunrei-Shiki is based on the older Nihon-shiki. Then there is revised Hepburn where 「ん」is transliterated as "~m" (and a couple of others). I'm mildly dyslexic and make the similiar errors in both languages so I compensate by using a combination of those styles so my preference is not the best guide. The person to ask is probably @Nihonjoe: as he has fixed a lot of my funky romaji and might have some wisdom for you. Cheers Dr.khatmando (talk) 09:03, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WP uses "Revised Hepburn", which is a standard and gives Sunpu. So that's what we write, because in general there simply is no "how it's written in English" for things like this. It is always possible to add a note somewhere ("also sometimes/often/etc written as sumpu"); this is informative, because it points out that there is no pronunciation difference between the 'n' and 'm', these are just spelling conventions. Imaginatorium (talk) 09:55, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm well aware of all that. The problem is that when you look at most things outside of Wikipedia, it's "Sumpu Castle" with an "m". At least all English here in Shizuoka and travel sites is this spelling. LordAtlas (talk) 13:02, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@LordAtlas:I came across a similiar example in the medical journals of the JMA which transliterated Kanpo as Kampo (pre Meiji practitioners of Chinese medicine). The journal articles were published during and after the WW2 allied occupation. If I was translating from J-E today then I would use Kanpo, but it would be useful to note the "Kampo" transliteration as a footnote. We used "Kampo" in the Japan Medical Association article because that was the transliteration used in the reference documents.

I had a quick read of the WP articles romaji and there are several systems still used in Japan and if the articles are accurate there different systems endorsed by different sections of the government e.g. monbusho and houmusho for passport names. There is even a photo in one of the articles of a train station using 3 different transliterations. So I think you might have a point to consider depending on the context. Given that Sampu Castle, is a place name and the common usage is Sampu, then it would expect that transliteration would be the most useful. Why not have a read of the different WP articles on romaji? (I'm on an iPad ATM travelling home so sry for not posting the links). It's no the most riveting reading but good enough for the bilingual? Hope that helps. Dr.khatmando (talk) 10:12, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

LordAtlas: I live in Shizuoka, too (and have for 19 years), and I have to wonder where you get the idea that "nearly everything is Sumpu". "Sunpu" is not even remotely rare—it's even the spelling you'll see on Google Maps and for the Sunpu Yume Hiroba and Sunpu Ooedo Onsen (which even uses "sunpu" in its domain name, as does the city's page for Sunpujō Park). Signage is entirely arbitrary and does not reflect any (non-existent) "official" spelling. For example, you'll find driving to Gotenba that the signs on Route 1 spell it "Gotemba", while the signs on the Tōmei spell it "Gotenba". Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:35, 2 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Dear editors, I am proposing a new WikiProject Karate to bring together editors with knowledge of this martial art specifically, especially due to Karate becoming an Olympic sport I think it is time to focus energy on the roughly 3500 main space articles associated with Karate. Full description of the rationale and goals can be found at the link above, please comment, discuss (and join if you support this project!) All the best, Mountain^{cirque · Join WikiProject Karate?} 10:49, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The proposed project is now a joint task force of WikiProject Martial arts and WikiProject Japan. Anyone interested in helping is encouraged to sign up to help. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:52, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi all,
Following this discussion, I've moved (wife of Oda Nobuhide and mother of Oda Nobunaga - don't think I need to wiki-link them) Tsuchida Gozen to Dota Gozen, with the following impeccable references from scholarly sources as required:

• ...
• ...
• ...

Nope, couldn't find anything at all. Only justification at all was that ja:土田御前 has どたごぜん as the pronunciation.
Your thoughts - and hopefully actual citations - about this? --Shirt58 (talk) 09:46, 2 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A Google Books search 土田御前 どたごぜん returns many book sources. Ruby characters どたごぜん are appended to kanji.

Some examples are:

• [1]
• [2]

―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 11:03, 2 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It is Dota. Adding to the other discussion, on'yomi readings are not uncommon for names in the Sengoku period, throughout Edo and even to this day. For many of the names, there are simply no concrete standards. One can refer to this article (in Japanese) for the practice of pronouncing names in on'yomi. Buddhist names are almost always written in on'yomi also. Sources are plentiful as noted, although mostly in Japanese unfortunately. Alex Shih^Talk 14:25, 4 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing unfortunate about having sources in Japanese. It's awesome to have sources in Japanese. So many topics under WP:JA don't have online sources that having a topic that does have them is awesome. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:54, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The is an RfC open at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Lead section‎‎ re: information in parentheticals in the lead. One of the proposals is to remove CJK from these parentheticals (as well as IPA pronunciations). Please take part in the discussion. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:27, 2 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly encourage people here to participate in this discussion. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:06, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have been chipping away at reducing the backlog of articles needing infoboxes. The backlog is now down below 199 from approximately 260 a week a go.

For some infoboxes I have included data translated from the corresponding Japanese Wikipedia article, and noted that in the infobox footnote. Many of those articles are stubs or start class but if the corresponding Japanese Wikipedia article has well cited sources, and it seems worthwhile that the English article could be expanded, I have translated that data to be included in the English article Wikipedia article. This means that some data appears in the infobox but not in the main article. With the information in the infobox footnote, it would make sense that another bilingual editor will know to look to the Japanese wiki article to expand and cite the English version.

I've passed over some articles that I'm not convinced should be on WP, and some articles that should be reclassified as more important and expanded. I have left messages on the article talk pages and listed those on my Userpage In a to-do list. I will revisit those later and might need to ask some of the folk here what to do with those. There are also some articles such as the WW2 military articles that I have left until I have a sound basic knowledge of those subjects.

If you have some bilingual capacity and confident with infoboxes this can be very interesting, especially when the Japanese article is well written. I can help anyone who wants to have a try at this.

I hope we can get the backlog down to a more manageable level in a couple of weeks. In the meantime I am also available to assist with some small translation tasks. Dr.khatmando (talk) 02:29, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all the work. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:23, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

NihonjoeMy pleasure! Good for the mind and soul, and to keep me out of mischief. Dr.khatmando (talk) 12:30, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've come across a problem I can't resolve with the article Talk:Sumco. A previous editor has already given the manin article an infobox, but there is no tag in the WP:JAPAN project boxes to modify so the the article can't be removed from the needing infoboxes here Category:Japan articles needing infoboxes. Any ideas of how to proceed with this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr.khatmando (talk • contribs)

Not sure why it didn't show up for you but I removed it now. I'll try to help sometimes too. Alex Shih^Talk 05:25, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Very pleased. Thank you!

Please come participate in the discussion at WT:ANIME#Inclusion of additional voices in anime voice actor articles. Thank you. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:17, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to find the Japanese name of the TV program Oha Coliseum, but I'm not having much luck. It's mentioned in Keshikasu-kun and I want to make an interwiki link for it.

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 22:26, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

おはスタ. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 22:57, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think おはコロシアム.―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 23:01, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much, guys! It seems like it's "おはコロシアム" WhisperToMe (talk) 00:09, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The article Atobe Katsusuke has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

unreferenced

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. BSOleader (talk) 12:37, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone has a better image, please use it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:54, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is a proposal on Commons to globally replace an image, which is relevant to this WikiProject. Please voice your opinion at Commons here. —Guanaco 20:52, 23 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I have just the past few weeks translating about 90% of the content from the Japanese version of Imperial Crown Style into the English version, and then expanding and improving the material from a review of the Japanese and English literature, with @MerlinVtwelve: and @Gryffindor:. We have almost reached the limit (as far as I can see), to expand the scope and depth of the article. The article now includes examples from across the former Empire of Japan and a section from Taiwan which I surprised to know that many ICS buildings still existed there, and that they are considered important heritage buildings. We also had help from Mr Hideki Yoshida of teikan.net who has spent almost 20 years photographing ICS buildings across the globe and as far away as Hawaii. Mr Yoshida released the rights of some important images for the article. I have thanked him by email, and have acknowledged his work in the edits and photograph descriptions. Is there anything else we can do to thank him?

I understand that the article is not perfect, but it has been expanded and improved many more times than what it was several weeks ago, and is of better quality than the Japanese version. If anyone would like to read the current version and let us know how they found the article it would be very much aprreciated. Dr.khatmando (talk) 06:03, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your efforts. I had no idea there was a formal name for this style, but once I looked at the gallery of images on the Japanese page it all seemed amazingly familiar. Actually, this is the sort of topic for which I think the more images and the less text the better. Look at lots and lots of art deco images, and you have a grasp of what art deco means; reading about it is less likely to be helpful. In this case, I think the stuff about buildings incorporating the character 高 are frankly not worth having. Firstly, it is not particularly easy for most English readers to grasp what this is about, and secondly the claims are extremely dubious. I can't really see the character in the buildings I looked at, except in a highly imaginative way, so I took the first other building that came to mind - St. Paul's Cathedral in London - *then* I found a photo, and easily drew 高 on the front of it: St Pauls. Hmmm. Imaginatorium (talk) 08:00, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Imaginatorium: Thank you for taking the time to look over the article and for you helpful feedback.I agree that good images are almost essential to see the nuances of what constitutes the style. This is especially so during the "revival period" after Shimoda, when there are deviations from his original design were built. In my sandbox, I do have a translated version of the table from the Japanese article that just needs the images reinserted, User:Dr.khatmando/sandbox that would give the reader an immediate visual survey of the style.

I hear you in regard to the "高" matter related to the Taiwan section. I had that same "mmmm" reaction. I had thought it was a local thing related to Taiwan as the references are decent. Then I found some similar literature related to the layout of the old Seoul City Hall and the Kanji "本" and "引". It still didn't sit well with me.I then came across a published work discussing Imperial Hotel, and it is clear that Wright designed the floor plan to resemble an "I" intersecting the middle of an "H" for "IH" Imperial Hotel, and which also became the logo inscribed on the silverware that Wright designed. Despite that it's still a bit mmmm but I'd like to hear what MerlinVtwelve thinks in case there's some cultural bias at work in my mind. I will look to put in the table with images in though. I would not have seen the need for that as I'm too impressed in the subject at the moment. I had not thought the subject was as interesting as it was when I first started, but I hope we have down the subject justice. Thanks for your feedback! Cheers,Dr.khatmando (talk) 09:08, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Imaginatorium: Oh indeed the photomontage in the Art Deco article works wonderfully! Dr.khatmando (talk) 09:08, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Dr.khatmando:, I believe that the "高" shape of the building is possibly peculiar to usage in Taiwan. It relates the "kao-style" architecture and the Chinese character "kao" for altitude (or "height/high" I think) ... There is an article here[[3]] about the station in the China Post. Francis Chia-Hui Lin also discusses it in a couple of his articles / papers. merlinVtwelve (talk) 11:34, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@MerlinVtwelve: Good oh. And I agree that the Lin references are sound, and the newspaper references a bonus. As you mentioned before, Taiwan wasn't annexed by military force, and that is most likely why so many buildings still remain, and had indigenous influences. Ide Kaoru spent most of his life there giving him more liberty to engage the people. I think it is worthwhile maintaining the scholarly integrity of the Taiwanese section based on the Taiwanese literature. It is available in English so that people can refer to them if necessary. Dr.khatmando (talk) 11:50, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@MerlinVtwelve: The article on Chiang Kai-shek Memorial Hall also discusses an architectural practice you have described, suggesting that the practice is common in Taiwan. Furthermore that building was finished in 1980 and looks very much like a modern version of ICS. Dr.khatmando (talk) 12:00, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Dr.khatmando: It's slightly confusing because in English publications in Taiwan, they refer to "Koa" style and also "Kao" style. It seems that Koa style is what they call Imperial Crown Style, whereas Kao style are generally specific to the city of Kaohsiung. The Japanese slightly modified the name of the city in 1920, because the original Chinese characters translated as a vulgar phrase ("beating the dog") – see this link [[4]] (Page 3 of PDF). Lin outlines more about it here [[5]]. He also provides an overview of the usage of 高 character in that publication, as well as in his paper ("Post‐war Taiwan: knowing the other from the cultural politics of identity and architecture") where he superimposes the character on Kaohsiung City Hall (Chapter 5, page 171). merlinVtwelve (talk) 21:08, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@MerlinVtwelve: Oh my! Well that is interesting. I did notice some buildings did have 興和 influences. Can we not make sure this is evident in that section with the references we have? I think it's quite important because we have an article that intersects more than one culture, but also we need it to accurately inform readers from different cultures. I can help you polish the language if we have the content.Thank you for helping us. I know you have laboured with me through this work. Dr.khatmando (talk) 23:55, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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