Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/June 2015

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Please could someone check how good the references at Draft:Act Yasukawa are? I don't read Japanese, but if the references are good, then I think they pass WP:GNG. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:44, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

@Joseph2302: They look fine to me. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:45, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, I'll accept it then. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:09, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

You are invited to participate in Wiki Loves Pride!

• What? Wiki Loves Pride, a campaign to document and photograph LGBT culture and history, including pride events
• When? June 2015
• How can you help?

  1.) Create or improve LGBT-related articles and showcase the results of your work here

  2.) Upload photographs or other media related to LGBT culture and history, including pride events, and add images to relevant Wikipedia articles; feel free to create a subpage with a gallery of your images (see examples from last year)

  3.) Contribute to an LGBT-related task force at another Wikimedia project (Wikidata, Wikimedia Commons, Wikivoyage, etc.)

Or, view or update the current list of Tasks. This campaign is supported by the Wikimedia LGBT+ User Group, an officially recognized affiliate of the Wikimedia Foundation. Visit the group's page at Meta-Wiki for more information, or follow Wikimedia LGBT+ on Facebook. Remember, Wiki Loves Pride is about creating and improving LGBT-related content at Wikimedia projects, and content should have a neutral point of view. One does not need to identify as LGBT or any other gender or sexual minority to participate. This campaign is about adding accurate, reliable information to Wikipedia, plain and simple, and all are welcome!

If you have any questions, please leave a message on the campaign's main talk page.

Thanks, and happy editing!

User:Another Believer and User:OR drohowa 15:12, 3 June 2015‎ (UTC)

Osamu Noguchi and Japan Karate Federation are two Japanese articles needing translating into English from Japanese properly if anyone can help. Dwanyewest (talk) 21:25, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Do editors here feel that this person is notable? She has notable works but that does not make herself notable as a person. I found a Japanese wiki page on her [1] but that too has limited info. Thoughts? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:49, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Can we not just say Japanese American? Why shoehorn him into a PC term that did not exist in his lifetime?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 15:46, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

On the face of it, your idea seems like a reasonable suggestion. Can anyone shed light why the term "Asian Pacific American" is used? There is no clue given in the article. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 00:01, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

That was the phrasing used when the stub was first created and it seems to have remained as is since then. The editor who created the stub is still active, so I'll ping Sadads and see if they can provide further clarification. Personally, if Inukai was born in the US or was later naturalized, then I don't see any problem with referring to him as a "Japanese-American". For reference, Kyohei Inukai (b 1913) in the "See also" section refers to that Kyohei Inukai as a Japanese-American. - Marchjuly (talk) 02:51, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@Marchjuly, Athomeinkobe, and Kintetsubuffalo: I don't know why I did that. At the time, I was just creating an article to illustrate with that image - I know nothing about the subject. The website http://www.kyohei-inukai.com/ treats him as "Japanese-born American" so Japanese American is probably appropriate. Talk about unearthing something from the past :PSadads (talk) 15:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

As of Mozilla Firefox version 38 released this month, there is now full support for ruby characters in Firefox browsers. This means that as of present, all major browsers (Internet Explorer, Mozilla Firefox, Google Chrome, Safari, Opera) now have full support for HTML ruby.

With this in mind, should ruby characters now become the standard for Chinese character (kanji/hanja) glossing on Wikipedia, or at least an acceptable option for editors? Previously the use of HTML ruby was discouraged due to the rationale of WP:ACCESSIBILITY (they wouldn't display properly for many readers), but now that this is ancient history, the issue should be revisited and rediscussed. Proponents of HTML ruby have argued in the past that having hiragana and hanyu pinyin gloss displayed above individual Chinese characters would assist readers who are not too proficient in Chinese and Japanese, but have some small degree in familiarity.

In the case where there is consensus for a new way to use ruby characters on Wikipedia, WP:MOS-ZH and WP:MOS-JA will need to be updated to reflect this. Currently on the Korean Wikipedia, hiragana ruby annotations are the site-wide standard for Japanese text (see example article). --benlisquare_T•C•E 22:34, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

• Ruby would be nice, but (a) it should not be required (b) the text should under no circumstances rely on it---the text should be just as readable if the ruby for any reason fails. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:04, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

• An acceptable way of using them would be allowing them to be an optional thing for editors who choose to use ruby characters for glossing when writing articles. In this case, it wouldn't be a definite requirement for all editors to use, but it wouldn't be discouraged/prohibited at the same time (like it currently is). Ruby characters can by all means be used alongside the existing romaji gloss; readers who prefer the romaji can use the romaji, and readers who prefer the ruby can use the ruby. --benlisquare_T•C•E 00:33, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

• By the way---how is ruby support on mobile browsers? There are a lot of them, and they make up the majority of browsing today. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:08, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

• Here's Google Chrome for Android, Default Android web browser, Mozilla Firefox for Android. For transparency's sake, I performed these tests on a Samsung Galaxy Note 4 running Android 4.4.4. In all three cases, HTML ruby displays as intended, appearing above the kanji (if a browser doesn't support ruby, it defaults to placing the annotation text on the right hand side of the main text within the same line, enclosed in parentheses). I don't have an iOS device (iPhone/iPod/iPad), so someone else would need to test those. --benlisquare_T•C•E 03:21, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

• Here it is in whatever the most current version of Safari is in iOS 10.8.3. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 04:01, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Why would we need to use furigana at all? Whenever kanji appears, it's usually in parentheses with accompanying rōmaji, so what's the point of adding furigana? And I wouldn't say that using furigana is a "site-wide standard" at Korean WP. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 23:21, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

It's value added at little to no additional cost, and absolutely no existing value lost. Imagine a country with a healthcare scheme and a pharmaceutical benefits scheme; since the healthcare scheme exists, why would it also need a pharmaceutical benefits scheme? Well, for some individuals, the PBS would help them better, since the terms of the healthcare scheme may not benefit them for their particular instance. The same applies here; those who use the accompanying romaji aren't affected by the ruby characters and can continue to use the romaji, but those who use the ruby characters are the ones who reap the benefits from the new additions. There are some people, myself included, who find romaji difficult to read because Roman letters don't form perfect squares by syllables: as an example, my brain needs to process exactly when a syllable starts and when a syllable ends, which takes additional effort. Even as someone who is not a native Japanese, I find hiragana gloss more readable than Roman letters, even though they both perform the same intended function.

The point I'm getting at is, if there's multiple ways to help different people, why not offer both alternatives if they're not mutually exclusive and don't negatively impact the usefulness of one another? There is nothing to lose from this, and no downsides involved. For some it might come down to personal preference, but for others it might be a more honest usability issue. Not all users follow the same useability patterns (c.f. Jakob Nielsen's "Introduction to Useability"). --benlisquare_T•C•E 00:25, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Since it was just added, I would recommend waiting a few months just to allow time for everyone to be upgraded to a browser which supports it. I see no problem having it available as an option. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:51, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

@Sturmgewehr88: One use case would be when blockquoting, say, poetry—it would be enormously useful even for those who read Japanese to have the furigana in such a case, especially when unusual or obsolete kanji or readings are present. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 06:14, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

@Benlisquare: ok, well if we do implement furigana, then when will it be used? The only times I've personally seen furigana used were for either rare kanji or for written Okinawan (you know, so Japanese speakers don't read Okinawan like Japanese). On the Korean WP page for Japan, they used furigana for 日本国, one of the most commonplace phrases to come across. My point being, do we only use it for rare/special kanji, or do we use it for all kanji? I strongly oppose the former, but ther latter is fine with me. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 06:00, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Can it be dependent on the article's official website, like if the subject adds the expansions for better accessibility? If they don't bother, then it's not a big deal to leave it out. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 06:30, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

The furigana would be most useful in cases of unconventional or uncommon readings, or if a particular kanji is rare in the first place. For instance, ja:五省 uses furigana to gloss characters for clarity. For common words (e.g. perhaps up to elementary grade 6 within the List of jōyō kanji or something along those lines) I'd personally think that there wouldn't be much point in adding the ruby characters, but ultimately I'd leave it to the discretion of the editors involved with the article and whatever consensus they establish among themselves. Dictating who can use what under what circumstances eventually becomes WP:KUDZU, so I'd suggest that the Manual of Style inform editors to use their common sense when deciding what to gloss. --benlisquare_T•C•E 13:54, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Mobile support is a good thing to ask about, but I'm skeptical that cell-phone browsing is the majority of Wikipedia reading today, even if it accounts for a substantial portion of overall Internet traffic. Do we have any proof that mobile browsers dominate Wikipedia reading? I'd be amazed if this were true, given what Wikipedia is and what purpose it serves (i.e. fairly long-form text reading). While I use WP myself on my cell phone a lot, I rarely go past the infobox or lead, and save most detailed reading for later on a larger device. Am I some kind of dinosaur? And "mobile" can be misleading. My tablet is a "mobile" device, but runs Windows 8.1, and I use the full version of Firefox on it, not some limited-functionality mobile browser.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  15:19, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• I think it would be helpful in cases of ateji, especially since there is a trend in popular culture and baby names to pronounce kanji completely differently. (eg. とある科学の超電磁砲（レールガン） and 七音（どれみ）) However, I am a bit concerned how ruby would appear in-line, since it would increase the spacing between lines (see the effect above?). I would therefore recommend that ruby not be used in prose except in the first line. _dk (talk) 07:00, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

• I guess it would work optimally as long as the gloss is used within the first line of a subsection or the lead paragraph, or if it's used within a dot-point, numbered line, image caption, wikitable or list. Perhaps people wouldn't even notice it that much if it was at the first line of each paragraph, since the gap becomes truly obvious mostly when they appear between two lines mid-paragraph, and surely enough it isn't as problematic as {{MongolUnicode}} used in Mongolia-related articles. Though, what are the chances that MediaWiki:Common.css can be tweaked so that the ruby text is displayed a bit lower, enough to minimise the increase in whitespace above? Also, seems like that is always the first example people come up with when demonstrating ruby characters. Railgun shows up every single time, truly a mystery of the universe. --benlisquare_T•C•E 14:17, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

• I would be okay with making furigana an optional choice but not mandatory. Its inclusion would be helpful for the people described above who can read kana but not kanji and who have trouble with romaji. I suspect that that's a rather limited group, though. There would also likely be places where using ruby for romanji would be beneficial. --Cckerberos (talk) 07:57, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
• Most people don't use current browsers, so to suggest this problem is "ancient history" is way off the mark. --Izno (talk) 15:06, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

• The problem is ancient history though, IE and Chrome have supported ruby for a long time. The recent change in Firefox is just sweeping away the dust that's left with a broom. Even if a user is using a 2 year old Chrome client (keep in mind that even with non-admin Windows privileges Chrome auto-updates itself, unless you specifically disable it), they can still view HTML ruby tags. We're talking about a transition from an existing 70% to a future potential 95% browser usage share now supporting ruby. --benlisquare_T•C•E 16:13, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

I would support adding Ruby characters since there are some kana aspects that don't show up in Hepburn: o-o vs. o-u (おお, おう), and also the distinction between the two "zu"s which, in Nihonshiki, are rendered "zu" and "du" (ず, づ). WhisperToMe (talk) 19:36, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

• I must oppose. These characters are not standard in Japanese. Including them would clutter up the text and mislead readers as to what standard usage is. The "Why don't we use all the latest bells and whistles?" approach violates the basic principle of good style, which is to be clear and concise. These characters represent the Japanese version of a pronunciation guide. Pronunciation is better given using Latin characters. Who is this supposed to benefit? Readers who know kana, but not Latin characters? Fernando Danger (talk) 00:08, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Using ruby wouldn't preclude using romaji as well. You could use both. This is just discussing whether we should remove the prohibition in the MOSJA so they can be used in some cases. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 05:29, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
  • This is why I suggest they should be limited to usage as an "extra", from which the text should be entirely independent. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 06:12, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

• I presume that "ruby usage" means adding furigana to Japanese text within en:WP. This seems to me an almost universally bad idea. en:WP is an English language encyclopedia: of course, unlike traditional lang=en encyclopedias it has almost no technical restrictions on adding foreign character sets, and should quote the original script wherever reasonable and helpful. However, ("outside the quotation marks") it should be written in English, using the vocabulary and writing style of English, in which there is no convention of writing a phonetic rendering parallel to a word or phrase. So the only place I can see it being appropriate is a quotation of text, itself including furigana, or in a article on furigana. There is a technical issue that has already been mentioned: CJKV typesetting works on different principles, and for equivalent readability would us a kanji font size bigger than the roman. In other words, plain kanji already do not fit in standard spacing, let alone with furigana. I absolutely oppose adding furigana because it might help the Japanese beginner; compare [2] which uses furigana very effectively, but this is because it is a Japanese learning site. Imaginatorium (talk) 08:00, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

• I oppose also, mainly for the reasons given by Imaginatorium. Let us not forget that this is the English language wikipedia. Furigana would be perfect for a "Simple Japanese" wiki, if one like the Simple English wiki existed. It may be appropriate when quoting archaic texts, but in now wya should it become a standard. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 08:17, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

• So in other words, you don't "oppose"? Nowhere within the original post was a proposal made; I opened with a brainstorming suggestion, with two different options (either using furigana everywhere, or only using it to gloss in circumstantial cases), and it sounds like you're actually in support of the second option. (Why are we WP:!VOTE-ing in the first place? This is no WP:RFC) --benlisquare_T•C•E 11:55, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose using furigana in the main text or even the lede of articles due to its use in standard Japanese being restricted to learner's books or rare/unusual pronunciation of kanji, however, I would support using it for block quotes of poetry, archaic Japanese, and other Japonic languages (see Onna Nabe for an example of where it could be useful). ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 17:08, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

What do you think about using furigana in the lead for rare/unusual pronunciation of kanji then? _dk (talk) 18:59, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

No, Template:Nihongo would be better. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 19:53, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

At any rate, WP:MOSJA#Ruby needs to be reworded, regardless of which template works better for expressing readings for rare kanji. MOSJA currently does not prohibit ruby text because of how it looks or how it's used, it's currently prohibited based on technical aspects (browser rendering) which are already long overdue. --benlisquare_T•C•E 11:57, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• I concur with Imaginatorium and Sturmgewehr88, on the main point and on Sturmgewehr88's response to Underbar dk's question, just above. Furigana wouldn't generally seem to add English-speaker value to the English-language Wikipedia (especially given the problems it would introduce), even if some special cases like Onna Nabe may be exceptions, where we are quoting or illustrating the use of furigana (This means I agree that technologically it's okay for such cases, even if there's not a good use-case for broader deployment).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  15:24, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• Well, what's everyone's overall attitude towards using furigana as gloss within classical text or poetry, especially if modern native Japanese texts themselves use them to aid readers? The usage of ruby characters should be situational (e.g. for cases where even native readers would resort to using furigana), and thus it should be left to editor judgment. It would really be helpful if I could fix up Gosei (meditation) by making the text read "至誠（しせい）に悖（もと）る勿（な）かりしか", without WP:MOSJA explicitly telling me that I cannot do so. With the way MOSJA is currently worded, it's overly authoritarian and does not allow editors to use their own discretion, since it directly prohibits the use of ruby characters solely on technical grounds. Since the technical aspect has now changed, you cannot use the same rationale to prohibit ruby characters, and so MOSJA needs to be changed. --benlisquare_T•C•E 11:49, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I would like to see a Requests for comment on this such as the following.

If anyone has an alternative proposal please be so kind as to present it. – Allen4names (contributions) 04:59, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

We may as well start the RfC using the wording you've provided, they seem reasonable and to the point. There's nothing much that I'd add onto that, it essentially covers the gist of things. --benlisquare_T•C•E 05:12, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I do not think a Yes/No response to the above rfc would be useful (I would have to say "No"). The technical bar on ruby can and should be removed. I agree that in blockquoted Japanese where the original has furigana (which incidentally is the proper term; I guess the 'ruby' name is PC for multilingual CJKV situations), then it can be quoted with furigana. However, as I have already said, I believe en:WP should be in en(!), in which furigana plays no part. For nos. 2-3 above:

2. No. Infobox or anywhere else, the romanisation is given, which makes furigana superfluous anyway.

3. Please give examples of ambiguous romanisation...

4. No. As for 2., if it is really necessary to give a reading inline (how could this be so?) it should be parenthesized in the English style. Same goes for alternative kanji forms.

Imaginatorium (talk) 06:41, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

"ruby" is not a PC term, and "furigana" is not a "more proper" term, it is only a more precise term for ruby characters in a specifically Japanese context—in other words, "furigana" is a subset of "ruby". Obviously, if the ruby uses, say, Roman characters and no kana, then it is not "furigana". Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 08:00, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Ruby is what the W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) calls it; the templates shown above use what are called "HTML ruby tags", which is a part of HTML5. There is no such thing as "furigana" in the technical aspect of things. --benlisquare_T•C•E 08:36, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually, the W3C mentions "furigana" in the ruby draft, so it does in fact "in the technical aspect of things". The point is that "furigana" is a Japanese-specific form of "ruby"—a distinction pointless to make in the code. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 09:11, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

@Imaginatorium: WhisperToMe has already provided some examples. Both おう and おお are romanized as ō. Even excluding the yōon variants there is also じ ji, ぢ ji, ず zu, and づ zu. BTW I have seen the "English style" used in A Certain Scientific Railgun and in that case at least if furigana is not going to be used the katakana "レールガン" may as well be omitted. – Allen4names (contributions) 19:06, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

• Bumping discussion, so that it doesn't get archived by MiszaBot II before an actual outcome arises from this incomplete discussion. --benlisquare_T•C•E 09:08, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

• R.I.P. ded RfC, ded discussion --benlisquare_T•C•E 00:17, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I would support having an RFC. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:40, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Started at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles#Ruby RfC June 2015. – Allen4names (contributions) 01:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Recent legislation in Japan is mentioned on the English wiki here: Space_launch_market_competition#Raising_private_capital.

As of May 2015^[update], the Japanese legislature is considering legislation to allow private company spaceflight initiatives in Japan. It remains to be seen whether the legislation becomes law and, if so, whether significant private capital will enter the Japanese space launch industry.^[1]

It would be If editors exist with a technical or economic interest in the Japanese spaceflight industry, it would be most very helpful if they might keep their eyes on what happens someone who reads Japanese would do a quick search about this legislation (in the Japanese press).

Moreover, if anyone who writes Japanese would be willing to mention this on the Japanese Wikipedia in the Japan-wiki equivalent of Wikipedia:WikiProject Spaceflight or Wikipedia:WikiProject Economics, it would be quite helpful to have a Japan perspective on the changes happening in the spaceflight industry from a global/Japan point of view. Cheers, N2e (talk) 14:12, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, it has been three weeks, and no one has turned up who apparently has an interest in spaceflight. Still, I would very much appreciate it if someone with skill in news media research in Japanese language sources would take a few minutes to see if their are any more recent updates on this Japanese legislative initiative. Thanks. N2e (talk) 18:19, 25 June 2015 (UTC)