Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/December 2012

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Dear Experts, Japanophiles,

According to the following advice of one of our Administrators,

• The best place to discuss this is probably Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan, which is well-watched by Wikipedia's Japanophiles (including myself). How about starting a new thread there?

I would like to open a discussion on the hyphenation used in transcription of Japanese words. Currently, we have a bit of a mess resulting from the lack of clear rules in Wikipedia, and caused by the use of the wrong sources. Our problem began with the transcribed names of the Japanese islands: Inujima or Inu-shima and Inu Island in English. As you know hundreds of islands are transcribed properly (eg. Awaji Island) and in accordance with broadly accepted international standards WITH HYPHEN because -shima is treated in English as a NOUN-SUFFIX. Exactly as in the case of -san = mountain; -shi = city; -jinja = shrine; -kō = lake etc. However, some editors try to write these two words together, in the form of Inushima, Awajishima. I will be very grateful for your opinions, --Seibun (talk) 11:18, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

It all really depends on how the name is translated into English. WP:MOS-JA already says in the case of "-jinja", you should translate it as "Shrine". If that isn't clear, go with the way the locality names it (rather than some ancient dictionary or atlas) which in this case is "Inujima". I'm honestly not aware of any case where "-jima" or "-shima" is used other than the many cases I'm finding where you instigated a move.—Ryulong (琉竜) 13:33, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Additionally, you were told in July by Nihonjoe that the English Wikipedia's Japanese manual of style specifically suggests not to use hyphens in any translated names, so there's no reason you should be confused about this now other than it being your personal preference in the way romanization should be dealt with in an academic manner.—Ryulong (琉竜) 13:41, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I can't find the part in WP:MOS-JA that says we shouldn't use hyphens in translated names. Does anyone know which part (or parts) of the guideline mentions this? It would be a good idea for us all to get on the same page about what the guideline actually says before we start talking about changing it. (Also, for reference, I'm the administrator that Seibun is referring to at the start of this thread.) — Mr. Stradivarius ^{(have a chat)} 14:02, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I believe the entry

Suffixes such as "City", "Town", "Village", and "Island" are generally superfluous in English and should be avoided.

might be the one that covers things here. Also, in the case of "Inujima", there are clear uses by the current government that "Inujima" is the preferred form, which is covered by the "Determining common usage" section.—Ryulong (琉竜) 14:10, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

The ALA-LC Romanization Tables: Japanese digs into the hyphen issue and gives numerous modified Hepburn guidelines/examples. The Library of Congress prefers no hyphen before a generic geographic feature (middle of p. 84). Prburley (talk) 19:22, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

My answer soon --Seibun (talk) 09:51, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Can someone look over Kirishitan please. Seems to be duplicate and WP:FORK? In ictu oculi (talk) 23:15, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

The tags have been removed (fine), but no input on the subject. I still think this is OR/FORK from History of Roman Catholicism in Japan, there were no non-RC Japanese Christians at this period. Have listed on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism as well, though a bit unlikely anyone there who knows anything about Japan isn't on this project first. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:12, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Does this WikiProject (or Wikipedia in general) have any community-based objective review system?

I have been working on translating the article waka (poetry) from the Japanese, but I have learned over the last few months that Japanese Wiki's standards are quite different from ours, and citations in the original are minimal-to-nonexistent. I can deal with that by just checking each statement against English sources (and I will, someday :P ). But as for other areas of improvement, I am looking for advice.

I noticed that if I have a problem with something in an article, or another editor's edits, it's very easy to get community input via RFC -- is there any corresponding request for articles that just need general improvement? I have seen other articles get nominated for GA and FA and get shot down almost immediately, but with pretty good advice as to how to improve them, but given that I know this is a waste of other editors' time it seems inappropriate...

elvenscout742 (talk) 06:57, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like you're looking for Wikipedia:Peer review. I hear that a lot of featured article writers take an article to GA, then use a peer review as a stepping stone to FA status. You can use peer review at any stage of development, though, as long as the article in question is relatively fleshed out. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{(have a chat)} 10:04, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

No don't send it for peer review until the obvious problems are all fixed, otherwise you will just annoy people. About half or more of the article sent to peer review only get a cursory glance. I sent Kaneto Shindo there but got nothing except an image request. JoshuSasori (talk) 04:02, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

{{Infobox East Asian name}} has been nominated for deletion -- 70.24.245.16 (talk) 04:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Discussion got moved to here: Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2012 December 10#Template:Infobox East Asian name. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 08:12, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I was exploring the feasibility of an article on Buddhism and violence when I read about this Japanese "pan-Buddhist organization known as the Myowa-kai" which in 1937 issued a statement in support of the Japanese war effort, which said "we ... now have no choice to to exercise the benevolent forcefulness of 'killing one in order that many may live.' [issatsu tashō]"[1] I tried to do a web search for this organization, but got very little information, except that apparently two Sōtō Zen leaders, Hayashiya Tomojirō and Shimakage Chikai, were associated with this statement.[2] Maybe Myowa-kai is an obscure nickname or abbreviation for some well-known organization like Risshō Kōsei Kai (what Google threw out) or just a front organization for the government? Could somebody who knows the Japanese language or the history of the period clarify? Shrigley (talk) 23:58, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea, and this probably has nothing to do with it, but the far-right religious group "kenshoukai" (顕正会) was previously known as "myoushinkou" (妙信講). This started in the 1940s as a pro-war Buddhist group. JoshuSasori (talk) 03:57, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I found one reference to it.[3] The (tiny) reference says that

"Yūjirō Hayashiya (林屋友次郎) Buddhist Views on War (『佛教の戦争観』) 1937 (Ｓ12年)
"The Shanghai Buddhist Daily Report (上海仏教日報) claims that the Japanese government is coopting Buddhism for their own practical benefit. In response, the "Light and Peace Society" (明和会, Myōwa-kai), a Buddhist partisan group cited the proverb "It is justifiable to kill one (harmful) person to save the lives of many" (一殺多生, Issatsu-Tashō or Issetsu-Tashō).(p.4)"
elvenscout742 (talk) 05:55, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

A search for "Myōwa-kai Sino-Japanese War" in Japanese brought up a good few results, which I am going to try sifting through in a bit. The first hit was [4] which again (on p.23) makes a brief reference to the group, saying that "On 12 July, 1937, the extremist(?) religious group Myōwa-kai published a statement expressing their support for the Sino-Japanese War." The following sentence again mentions Mr. Hayashiya's book which was published the same year. I am sorry to not be of much use just now. I am curious though what your interest in the group is; Yujiro Hayashiya seems to be far more "notable", and his views on Buddhism and war are ... interesting, to say the least ... elvenscout742 (talk) 06:05, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

This Second Sino-Japanese War related article needs attention from editors familiar with the topic: it needs to be revamped with reference to better and neutral sources. I have raised my concerns on the article talk page. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 17:25, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I have nominated the page for deletion because it seems to be covered only in Japanese far-right literature, and so reliable sources are unlikely to be found. The article itself can only ever serve as a propaganda piece. elvenscout742 (talk) 03:45, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

The article History of sushi is so badly written that it is laugh-out-loud funny. Here is the lead:

Sushi is a Japanese dish considered a delicacy. It started out as a fast food in Japan because of its simplicity. A round sandwich of sorts, it is most often made with rice, sashimi, and circled with nori. The ingredients have caused controversy due to the fact that they are often raw.

It's almost a perfect parody of wikipedia inanities and ought to be preserved somehow. JoshuSasori (talk) 03:25, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

The lead was added in March 2011 (this edit) by an SPA that only edited this article. What's odd is that no one ever tried to change it. But since the article was subject to edit wars at that time (some editors were trying to argue that sushi is a Chinese invention), I would not be surprised that some odd changes were overlooked. Michitaro (talk) 04:00, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm not surprised to hear about that edit war, a bit more surprised that nobody fixed that article. JoshuSasori (talk) 12:03, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

file:Japan Visa with QR code.jpg has been nominated for deletion. Does anyone know the copyright status of Japanese Visas? -- 70.24.247.127 (talk) 07:13, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

file:Kanose POW Camp.png has been nominated for speedy deletion -- 70.24.247.127 (talk) 08:08, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Bottle keep is nominated to be merged into Izakaya. Please discuss at Talk:Bottle keep#Merge to Izakaya.―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:18, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

There's a discussion of Japanese flower names at Hanakotoba. LittleBen (talk) 14:16, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

file:Mitsushima POW Camp.png and file:Mitsushima Memorial Service 1943.png has been nominated for speedy deletion -- 70.24.247.127 (talk) 07:02, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

There's a question re: the Nitta clan at WP Reference Desk: Humanities page. I tried working on the article but didn't get anywhere. Can someone untangle this Yoshishige/Yoritomo/Ishibashiyama question at the Reference desk page? Thanks! Prburley (talk) 17:55, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

I copied the description that seemed contradictory here:

Yoshishige supported Minamoto no Yoritomo (1147 – 1199) in the Battle of Ishibashiyama of 1180 against the Taira clan.[1] The Nitta clan rose to importance in the early 13th century; they controlled Kozuke Province, and had little influence in Kamakura, the capital of the Kamakura shogunate, because their ancestor, Minamoto no Yoshishige had not joined his fellow clansmen in the Genpei War a century earlier.

--Inspector (talk) 07:56, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Should we have a template for this? For example, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nakiri_botyo&redirect=no would look something like:

#REDIRECT [[Nakiri bōchō]] {{R from kunrei romanization}}

Also while we are on the topic of hōchō, why not drop the "hōchō" in "Foo hōchō" and just call it "Foo" or "Foo (hōchō)", for the sake of WP:PRECISE. When sold in the US, it would likely be called "Foo" or "Foo knife" rather than "Foo hōchō". Personally, Kunrei romanization redirects seem pointless but I don't have willingness to argue for their deletion. --JBrown23 (talk) 14:42, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

I think we need a generic template, say {{R from romanization}} and {{R from alternate script}} , since this affects languages with multiple romanizations. -- 70.24.247.127 (talk) 05:41, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Tofu skin is up for renaming. -- 70.24.247.127 (talk) 00:54, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

"Tofu skin" is rated as "mid-importance", is that correct according to the project? -- 70.24.247.127 (talk) 20:11, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Sure, I don't have a problem with Mid-importance. I believe it's found throughout Japan, and while it may not be a daily staple, it's pretty common; furthermore, it's a specialty item and has some religious associations. See inarizushi and Toyokawa Inari. Boneyard90 (talk) 21:51, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I was hoping for some straightforward advice but having read some of the above discussions I'm not too confident! I know very little about the Japanese language so please don't get too technical. My area of expertise is Horse Racing and I am trying to improve the wikipedia coverage of the sport in Japan. I have noticed that there is a great deal of inconsistency in the romanised titles of individual races, so we have, for instance Oka Sho, Shūka Sho and Kikuka-shō. We have an article entitled Tenno Sho, which opens with "The Tennō Shō is a horse race..." which all seems rather messy. The English language sources I consult don't use macrons or hyphens. I suppose there is a balance to be struck between being correct and using the most common (English) name. Any guidance?  Tigerboy1966  12:14, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi, welcome to the project, and thank you for taking the time to improve some of the related articles. There has been some recent debate on the issue of macrons & hyphens, and it can be a touchy subject. As it stands, I believe project policy is to maintain macrons in all except the most common words in English (The word "Tokyo" for example, would get macrons, except that it is a "widely recognized word" in English). That being said, there are many contributors who either don't agree with macron-usage, or are unaware of or unconcerned with the policy, thus the inconsistency you observe. If you have sources, I would recommend explaining in a footnote the spelling used and the source(s) used, and maintaining consistency of spelling throughout the article. Good luck. Boneyard90 (talk) 22:02, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your advice. I do know where the Special characters tab is, so it will be shō, rather than sho from now on. The word crops up all the time in horse racing articles: it's used in the same way that stakes and prix are used in the titles of races in Britain and France respectively. I will try to feel my way around the conventions before I do anything more drastic. You may want to run the rule over an article like Gold Ship to see if there are any obvious howlers. Tigerboy1966  00:52, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Is Goguryeo controversies within scope? The article has a section where the difference between Goguryeo and the southern Kingdoms is a basis of colonization of Korea by Japan. -- 70.24.247.127 (talk) 19:32, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I removed the WP:Japan banner from the article because the controversies have very little to do with Japan. While agents of the Japanese military or government may have put forward some opinions for the purpose of "justifying" colonization efforts at the end of the 19th and early 20th centuries, the colonization (or subjugation) was going forward regardless of any pseudo-academic conclusions. While some Japanese persons may have become very lightly involved in the historical controversy, the controversies did little to affect Japanese policy, culture, or people. The article is so tangential to this project, that I felt WP:Japan's interests are adequately covered by WP:East Asia. Boneyard90 (talk) 00:32, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

I am planning on producing at least a partial translation of the Japanese article ja:佐藤忠信 in the near future. The page will be located at Satō Tadanobu in accordance with MOS on names of pre-modern figures (he was a samurai in the 12th century). This page is currently empty, but Sato Tadanobu (no macron) is a redirect to Tadanobu Asano. Since Mr. Asano is almost universally known by his stage name, and MOS forbids Japanese naming-order for modern individuals anyway, I think Sato Tadanobu (no macron) should be changed into a redirect to the new article; I can't see this being controversial.

The problem arises when the name is put in western order. Neither Tadanobu Satō nor Tadanobu Sato (no macron) currently exist. These really aren't likely to be entered by anyone searching for either page, since as I said Mr. Asano is almost always known by his stage name, and 12th-century samurai aren't usually known by western naming order. But this also presents a dilemma as to where they should redirect to.

Any ideas?

elvenscout742 (talk) 01:42, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

I concur with the points of the first paragraph. On the second, if we want a sort of "middle road", both names you mention could redirect to a disambig page, like Sato Tadanobu (disambiguation), which could be hatnoted at the top of the articles for the 12th c. warrior and the modern celebrity. Boneyard90 (talk) 01:59, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Two more requested moves, this time in the opposite direction: Shōtarō Ikenami‎, Tsurutarō Kataoka‎. JoshuSasori (talk) 13:49, 25 December 2012 (UTC) Also Kompeitō. JoshuSasori (talk) 01:22, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Why do we use western naming order for all Japanese people born after the Meiji Restoration? It seems to go against the general policy, since for many of them not a single reliable source can be found that gives their name in this order. Some authors, poets, etc. are only discussed in academic literature that exclusively uses Japanese order, and some are only discussed in Japanese-language sources. It seems to me that on other, similar issues (the macron...) we go first by what the people themselves use, then reliable/encyclopedic sources, then what other English sources typically use, and then finally if none of these apply we revert to Wikipedia-style. But in the case of naming order for modern Japanese people it seems to work in reverse -- we apply a style-guideline (which in many cases would contradict the intuition of editors who have read about the subject in reliable sources), and only in extreme cases (Edogawa Rampo) do we allow an exception.

What's up with that? elvenscout742 (talk) 00:50, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

By the way, I am not suggesting that I want to move Junichiro Koizumi to Koizumi Junichiro or Koizumi Jun'ichirō (or Koizumi Zyun'itirô!). This is merely a query as to the logic behind a particular policy point that seems to be inconsistent. elvenscout742 (talk) 00:50, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

There is a discussion here regarding the reliability of Jim Breen's Japanese dictionary. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:17, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi! I posted a comment for discussion on Talk:My Darling Is a Foreigner not long ago. The title has a couple of somewhat odd issues (the "official English title" used on the Japanese and Hong Kong posters doesn't use any capitalization) and I'm not sure how to deal with it by myself, so I haven't directly made a move request. elvenscout742 (talk) 01:44, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Please see this discussion. JoshuSasori (talk) 03:45, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

There are two requested moves at Kindai Eiga Kyokai and Tadao Sato. JoshuSasori (talk) 07:56, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

One example of your other working up of this, over a long time of many months: (diff). To be crystal clear, this is regarding: 〜協会 (きょうかい kyo u ka i / kyōkai, WWWJDIC translation: society; an association);

• "...To determine if the non-macronned form is in common usage in English-language reliable sources, a review should be done of all the related reliable sources used for the article (as well as any which may not have been specifically used, but can still be considered reliable per WP:RS)." –Wikipedia : Manual of Style : Japan-related articles – Determining common usage;
• "...too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage..." –Wikipedia : Article titles – English-language titles – Foreign names and anglicization,
• "...For transliterations from kanji and kana, long o and u are written with macrons as ō and ū respectively. If you have difficulty typing these characters..." –Wikipedia : Manual of Style : Japan-related articles – General guidelines;

–policies, all read plainly without me doing interpretation / bias, and then directly quoted.

Wikipedia : Identifying Reliable Sources, in my plain reading without me doing interpretation / bias and then directly quoted below—without my having any 'mac attack'—is that WP articles about companies should have reliable sources, including for their article titles and including for the romanization of the names of Japanese film companies which are their article titles, of course; –as per reading holistically in conjunction with the Manual of Style : Japan-related articles:

• "Context matters" –Wikipedia : Identifying reliable sources (lead section)

"The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is the best such source for that context."

• "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." –Wikipedia : Identifying Reliable Sources – Overview
• "Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. ..." –Wikipedia : Identifying Reliable Sources – Some types of sources – Scholarship
• "Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources." –Wikipedia : Identifying Reliable Sources – Reliability in specific contexts – Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources

What are the reliable sources for: Kindai Eiga Kyōkai –this English Wikipedia Japanese company article? I have looked at the article. For the company name in a romanized WP article title, here are some of the reliable, third party, secondary, sources, according to WP sources policies: [5] [6] [7] (and many more). WP isn't a video box in a video store in an English speaking country, –and it isn't the back of a corn flakes packet either! Therefore in terms of its standards of encyclopaedic information, it should not reflect the standards of information on those. In terms of its own standards of encyclopaedic information, I'm very much dissatisfied with WP's quality across most articles, with its amateurish info, and i want to see it improved, to scholarly encyclopaedia standards, rather than amateur and compromised–commercialist ones. I'm not and we should not be holding our breath, for that!

Finally, here's the Japanese film company's own official book of their history of themselves, from 1950–1980, according to the Yale University (USA) full bibliographic record: "Kindai Eiga Kyōkai no 30-nen, 1950-1980 / [henshū Kindai Eiga Kyōkai 30-nenshi Hakkō Iinkai, Takashima Michiyoshi] 近代映画協会の30年, 1950-1980 / [編集近代映画協会30年史発行委員会, 高島道吉]", also Google Book.

——--macropneuma 12:41, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Please discuss on the respective pages, judging each move on its merits, and according to the policies. JoshuSasori (talk) 13:06, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm discussing the WikiProject Japan general concerns, using one example of your editing as an example now in operation, including the risks to the project of your demonstrated lacking of respect for the holistic policies.——--macropneuma 13:19, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure you are. JoshuSasori (talk) 13:23, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Neither will sarcasm get you very far, with me.——--macropneuma 13:27, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

JoshuSasori wrote in their last edit summary only this code

Joshū!Sasori wrote in their last edit summary (diff) only this code: "v1PBptSDIh8" (?) :→ 1 → 2 ∴ (everyone?) : QED! ——--macropneuma 13:48, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

That was the result of my cat running over the keyboard. What a strange coincidence that it links to that video. JoshuSasori (talk) 13:51, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

QEDx2! ——--macropneuma 13:53, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Cat's do not carefully, selectively, hold down the shift key while running over keyboards. !!! Bad BS! –much more important is to get what we learn by viewing of JoshuSasori's clear choice of this hinted at web page, their silly, buried, coded hint of their intentions, in their singular edit summary code "v1PBptSDIh8" (the diff) —their meaning becoming clearer and clearer everyday from their WP actions—→ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1PBptSDIh8. What is important is for everyone to get to learn this meaning Q.E.D., which they sillily buried in their coded hint. ——--macropneuma 10:27, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Yūzō Kayama. JoshuSasori (talk) 13:36, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to suggest an alteration to the manual of style for Japan-related articles. My suggestion is that the manual of style be altered to say that the modern-day (post-Meiji) names of Japanese individuals should be written without macrons. I have NO IDEA where the idea of putting macrons on Japanese people's names has come from, but I am not aware of a single person who uses macrons on personal names in romanized form in Japan. I mean I do not think there is even a single human being who uses these things. It's not a debate or an issue so much as "Wikipedia versus everyone else". Can we please be a bit more realistic about the best way to write names, and lose the macrons, unless there is some evidence the person actually does use them? And if anyone here can find even one person who uses macrons, does anyone have a good recipe for cooking hats, because I'll be eating mine. JoshuSasori (talk) 05:09, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Are you saying that what you want is for peoples' names that have within them: 〜おう〜／〜ほう〜／〜ろう〜／〜のう〜／〜しょう〜／…, for 5 examples in hiragana (for eg. 啓次郎　将積), to be written in romanized characters as: ...ou.../...hou.../...rou.../...nou.../...shou.../ etc., instead of written as: ...ō.../...hō.../...rō.../...nō.../...shō.../ etc.? Are you saying from personal knowledge of Japanese people with their own names, or what?

Please contextualise your complaint(?) French, German, Chinese and many many more languages can't be written in romanized characters without various accents, umlaughts, macrons and many more. The keyboard is very easy to use for these, correctly operated. Of course all the millions of people using computer keyboards everyday in these many languages are typing these 'special' characters on the keyboards everyday, as the basic sounds of each of the languages. —— --macropneuma 06:20, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

No. Regarding modern-day people's names only, the macron on the name should be removed completely, not replaced with a "u". Thus Yasujirō Ozu -> Yasujiro Ozu, and so on, and certainly not Yasujirou, as a default way of naming people. Regarding your second paragraph, you are wrong. Japanese keyboards don't contain any facility to type macrons, and the pre-Unicode common forms of computer-encoding for Japanese don't contain macroned letters. JoshuSasori (talk) 07:02, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Japanese keyboards? Seems angry? ——--macropneuma 07:27, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

How are you writing macrons here? ——--macropneuma 07:58, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Beneath your edit window you should be able to select from a variety of symbols not normally available on keyboards (including characters with diacritics). Others, like me, are set up with a compose key that allows you to combine two characters into one, so I type <COMPOSE>, "-", "o", and it outputs "ō".

I can confirm what Joshu says—macrons are rarely used by the Japanese. They're pretty much limited to foreign textbooks of Japanese. Dropping any indication of vowel length is something I find hard to stomach, but you'll find few supporters (unfortunately) of the "ou" style of transliteration outside of Japan. CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 08:34, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Either copy and paste or use the Wikipedia editing box thing labelled "Special characters". JoshuSasori (talk) 08:30, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

On the serious subject, it is a choice between ou and ō, because that destroys the language when the vowel length is obscured. Many Japanese friends have long vowel sounds in their names. These Japanese friends of mine write either with: macrons or ou style. Okay rarely, but not okay never. I already knew that rarity, of course. Who is silly enough to close off the options of anything just because it is rare rather than pop. On the other hand JoshuSasori has an point, exaggerated, about macron's wrong use in some titles here in WP. On the not serious subject of keyboards' writing of macrons, you're both doing the too hard way, which before i knew better i did too, and this seems the real frustration causing anger to show out: On Macs globally: Option-A then the vowel couldn't be easier, if you know how to operate your Mac computer and set it up, properly, for both Japanese language characters and for English (romanized characters) transliterations; that means finding an extended English keyboard setting, eg. US Extended. I suspect you're both on windows, so if i find the easier windows way, then i'll let you know together with a hat recipe. ——--macropneuma 08:49, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I'm on Linux. If the macron is the only diacritic you're going to use, then your solution is fine. If you're going to use other diacritics, though (like if you're going to type French as well), then having a compose key gives you more options. The only place I personally use macrons is when editing Wikipedia (in real life I either use actual Japanese, or the "ou" style), so having to type one more key on rare occasions isn't a problem for me. CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 09:02, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes indeed! to many more options using the compose key, you have. Ahaaa! on Linux! Indeed macrons are more for published written form (more formal and proper), like this WP encyclopaedia is supposed to be. However my Japanese friends write their transliterated names with macrons in handwriting, and some write ou, but it is in fact easier, quicker, handwriting to just make the stroke above than another letter u. ——--macropneuma 09:08, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) JoshuSasori (talk) 09:14, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Many Japanese friends have long vowel sounds in their names. These Japanese friends of mine write either with: macrons or ou style. - hmm. JoshuSasori (talk) 09:12, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Every Japanese I know either writes using the "ou" style or just plain "o" (barf). I honestly don't know a single one who uses a macron. This is within Japan. Abroad, it quite likely could be that they've gotten in the habit of using macrons for the benefit of foreigners who expect them. CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 09:17, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

You're calling me a liar and writing direct hate speech at me now JoshuSasori. Don't be so silly. For one of several examples my friend writes: Keijirō (on his name card in front of me now). I already gave this as one kanji example, above. –And try walking in the shoes of the men who have the name 男坂さん (おさかさん osaka san, Mr. Osaka), not, i suppose, the impossible: 大阪さん (おおさかさん oosaka/ousaka/ōsaka san, Mr. Ōsaka) –i suppose impossible for a real name. Try walking in their shoes in business trips abroad and getting introduced all the time as Mr Osaka with the pronunciation of the city name, if pronounced correctly, as seems uncommon, by non–Japanese. ——--macropneuma 09:28, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Indeed! Cūrly Tūrkēy <smile> (simultaneously serious and a humouring). ——--macropneuma 09:37, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

The better, compassionate, more factual and less conjectural, explanation, for the lack of 'em.

(Personal attack removed) JoshuSasori (talk) 10:46, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I am an opponent of use of macron for the name generally accepted in English. However I prefer the name JoshūSasori rather than JoshuSasori. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:50, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Trying to calm things down, let's try to clarify the issues. Basically, it is the conflict between being an accurate encyclopedia and honoring common usage. Both are part of the rules at Wikipedia and can conflict. I personally want to err on the side of the former, given that personal usage can often be based on ignorance or aberrant systems (so many people in Japan would render it Itoh, not Ito or Itō). Do we want an encyclopedia that honors every aberrant romanization if we find an example of it somewhere? I personally think that would be confusing and would make a manual of style meaningless. JoshuSasori's statement that Japanese rarely use macrons may be largely true for Japanese personal names, but not in the culture as a whole. Go to any train station and one can see place names written as a rule with macrons. Is JoshuSasori proposing not using macrons for personal names because it is common usage but using them for place names, where it is common usage? I just find the resulting confusion as undermining the consistency and quality of the encyclopedia. Let's just stick to romanization rules, with the occasional exception where the name is clearly well-known abroad without the macron. Michitaro (talk) 13:18, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think there is a conflict between being an accurate encyclopedia and writing all personal names without macrons. I think that would be the most accurate way to write names. Is JoshuSasori proposing not using macrons for personal names because it is common usage but using them for place names, where it is common usage? I just find the resulting confusion as undermining the consistency and quality of the encyclopedia. - yes, I'm proposing not using a macron on people's names unless there is evidence for it, because it's very clearly a minority (Personal attack removed) who do this. As it is every article ends up with macrons by default, which then have to be removed when, inevitably, it is discovered that the person in question doesn't use them. JoshuSasori (talk) 13:52, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

While I am generally opposed to using macrons in English language contexts, I personally don't think there is actually any need to reword the guidelines for how we render Japanese names. The guidelines, currently set out at WP:JATITLE, do already suggest that the form commonly used by the person in question or widely used in published English texts should take priority, and the macronned form should really only be used as a last resort. And in answer to the often-raised argument that writing Japanese names without the correct diacritics constitutes dumbing-down, all articles on Japanese-related subjects should also have the "technically correct" Hepburn Romanized form in the "Nihongo" template in the introductory line, as seen in articles such as Junichiro Koizumi and Shintaro Ishihara, so it is always possible to determine the correct Romanized form as well as the more commonly used form. --DAJF (talk) 15:22, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

• The title is supposed to be the common name of the subject. The most common form of a name will rarely if ever have a macron in it. The marconned vowels are not even Latin-1 characters, so they were a hassle to put in back in the days before Unicode, i.e. only a few years ago. Kauffner (talk) 17:09, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

By the way (from above) for the record of my friend Keijirō's example i used above:

He uses the ...ō (macron) on the name card he gave me and i just checked in facebook, he uses ...ou. So Curly Turkey when you say "...it quite likely could be that they've gotten in the habit of using macrons for the benefit of foreigners who expect them." i'm with you on that as a likely explanation. Is it a martyr's crown of thorns hat? This section was always a non-starter IMHO so i sought to clarify for everyone... . Done! ——--macropneuma 02:21, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Why is this discussion taking place here instead of WT:MOS-JA? Anyway, it was decided that unless there is no known common form used by the subject of the article (that is how the subject or his/her representatives choose to parse the subject's name in roman letters), then we have to default to what shows up in reliable sources. If those don't exist, then we stick with the Hepburn romanization, including macrons. The easiest way to deal with this is to see if modern figures have a preferred way to write their names in English.—Ryulong (琉竜) 06:38, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

(ec) How can readers who don't understand ja know the difference between 大野 and 小野 without macron? See Ono. If editors think macrons are not needed on personal names, maybe we should adopt other romanization. Or should we just remove macrons from people's names? But that would create a difference between the family name 大野 and place names with 大野. Oda Mari (talk) 06:52, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

How can readers who don't understand ja know the difference between 大野 and 小野 without macron? - they can't. It gets worse: there are lots of examples of Japanese people with identical names even in kanji. Horror story: I used to know one man (a researcher in engineering) who shared an identical kanji name with two other people who did the same job, and he got mail addressed to him intended for them. He used to forward it to them but then worried that they would not forward mail for him back to him. So what? Wikipedia is not meant for solving every single problem of every person in the world. JoshuSasori (talk) 07:39, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Wait—you can't see a difference between two names that are spelt the same and two names that are spelt and pronounced differently?

What's the policy on names that are spelt in multiple ways? Check out Natsume Souseki. That's an awful lot of reliable sources backing up that spelling of the name, including a source that shows a minor planet 4039 Souseki was named after him with that spelling. I'll betcha dollars to doughnuts you'll never get his article renamed. CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 08:19, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

MOSJ already allows for different rules for articles on the people themselves and articles on things named after them -- see Osamu Dazai and Dazai Osamu Prize. It also just occurred to me -- JoshuSasori has not presented any evidence that most Japanese prefer not to use the macron, but it is perfectly clear that at least some do.[8] This means that the proposed change to the MoS (never use macrons for modern Japanese people under any circumstances) would explicitly violate the wishes of living people. The current policy is just fine. elvenscout742 (talk) 06:04, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

A bit confusing, this is under what I said, but it's not responding to anything I've said, I don't think. These talk pages are not a great system for discussion, but maybe you could clarify who the above is written for. JoshuSasori (talk) 10:29, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

The first paragraph was addressed to JoshuSasori, the second was just rambling. CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 10:41, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

The fact that there are so many aberrant romanizations out there, even for the same name, is one reason that I have not liked the policy about respecting common usage. In too many cases, it is just difficult to determine what is "common." So you count Google search results? Even if that doesn't include most paper sources? How do you know what the individual prefers, especially if they are dead or you can't contact them to confirm? Any self-respecting published encyclopedia just picks one romanization form and goes with it throughout the encyclopedia. If you make an exception, it should only be when there is overwhelming evidence. Michitaro (talk) 15:24, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

If they're dead then it's not up to us to figure out their personal preference. If they're alive, they're bound to have official websites. If they don't, then we have to stick with Wikipedia's internal policy. Them's the breaks.—Ryulong (琉竜) 17:51, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

"Official websites" aren't always reliable. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of Japanese don't personally care which way their name is romanized, and the English versions of official websites are usually produced by freelance translators who get paid the same whether they bother to insert the macron or not. Also, where do we draw the line? If we go by token inclusions of Engrish in what are essentially Japanese-language pages (e.g., "Ryo Kase's Official Facebook Page" or "Otsuchi Town Web Site"), then just about all Wikipedia pages on such topics (such as Ōtsuchi, Iwate) need to be moved. elvenscout742 (talk) 08:00, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Also regarding the 大野/小野 issue, that's why we use {{nihongo}} to show that the former is Ōno and the latter is Ono (also I don't think I've ever seen the former written as "Ono" as they usually prefer to go with "Ohno").—Ryulong (琉竜) 17:54, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

• A modified version of Template:Google RS (modified by adding reliable English-language sources about Japan) may be useful for researching usage. How about coming up with a list of reliable English-language sources about Japan, then a modified version of the template that includes these sources can be created. LittleBen (talk) 01:01, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

How JoshuSasori thinks Japanese people spell their names is irrelevant. 99% of time Japanese people spell their names in kanji, hiragana or katakana. Of course we do not follow this convention on English Wikipedia. The MOS as it exists now is fine -- when a person prefers to spell their name without a macron, we spell it without a macron. Otherwise, we use the macron. elvenscout742 (talk) 03:52, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion seems to focus a lot on whether is convenient for editors to type the macron. This is irrelevant, as Wikipedia discussion should be based around how to make the encyclopedia as good as possible for readers. JoshuSasori made one rather strange posting[9] to a move discussion expressing his POV that Japanese people don't use the macron (no evidence presented) and that he "doubted" the person in question was an exception to this made-up rule. When I later posted my opposition to the move (on the ground that the logic of the arguments went against WP:JTITLE and WP:UE), JoshuSasori responded by inverting JTITLE[10], and then when I continued to question the logic of the move he posted a very odd misrepresentation of history[11] (the person in question was born in Japan) and a personal attack about me trying to force my "opinion" on the article. It seems a lot more likely that JoshuSasori, who as far as I can see has yet to cite any sources, wants to force his opinion that Japanese people either do not or should not spell their names with a macron onto the MOS. The macron allows us to distinguish long vowels from short ones. It is standard in Hepburn romanization, and is only left out when technical limitations prevent it or when it is not required and it is more convenient to leave it out. This is why many English-language documents do not use it (I have produced some such documents in my job). However, Wikipedia has no such limitations, and must therefore continue to use it except in exceptional cases like "Tokyo" and "Junichiro Koizumi". elvenscout742 (talk) 04:15, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

We have this article, Mōri Gorō, a descendant of Mōri clan. Fortunately or unfortunately, we have no article for a grandson of Gorō's, Hideo Mōri. The article at ja:WP is this. ja:毛利秀雄. See this page. The top of the page says "Mohri, Hideo", but in the middle of the page, you can find "MORI, Hideo". "Mohri" is the majority, but it's not the Hepburn romanization. Do we use non-Hepburn "Mohri" or Hepburn, but wothout macron "Mori"? Anyway, if we create Hideo's article, we would have two different romanization for one family name. We have Ōkubo Toshimichi. One of his great grandson, Toshiteru is mentioned at Radiation Effects Research Foundation, we do not have his article though. Macron is not used on this page. But on this page, 大久保利晃 who works at the Radiation Effects Research Foundation is Ookubo Tosiaki. Which one should we use? There is Okubo Toshiteru too. It seems to me Ookubo and Okubo is the same person. See ja:大久保利通 and ja:大久保利晃. Consistency of family names would be lost by not using macron with modern figures. JoshuSasori, will you please stop requesting move article titles from titles with macron to without macrons? The macron matter has not yet settled. Oda Mari (talk) 08:28, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes people in the same family spell their family names differently. For example, I'm currently working on Winsor McCay's article in my sandbox–his father was born Robert McKay. Earlier in the family history it was spelled Mackay. CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 22:45, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

It's not "spelling", but "transcription". The Hepburn romanization is a system, not a language. The family name has been always 毛利 or 大久保. They didn't change kanji. Oda Mari (talk) 08:09, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Exactly Oda Mari! and thanks, thanks for clarification. i play around with different versions of my Katakana name sometimes for amusement and keeping up practise, same same. There's one better Katakana version and it has the Katakana equivalent for the long vowel!: ー 《smile》 (Also, elsewhere i've been tired of uninitiated user–editors using romaji transliteration as if English spelling and English capitalisations—they have been too uninitiated to be told anything as they don't comprehend it—outside mono–lingual thinking.) ——--macropneuma 17:43, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I have three comments/questions in response to the above:

1. "using romaji transliteration as if English spelling and English capitalisations..." As if what? Doesn't seem like you completed your thought.

2. I just recently told someone below that we don't bite the new guys here. So, don't bite the new guys around here. And don't be a lingua-snob.

3. Shouldn't these comments have been placed at the bottom of this section?

Boneyard90 (talk) 18:14, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Whaaat? Completed thought. A misunderstanding. Wrong end of the stick? An attack? New guys here. i'm new here. Who else is? No one i've interacted with. I agreed with Oda Mari, from experiences elsewhere as related, hence these two reply post positions. If someone thinks i'm talking about them, then they're reading too much into my straight talking and very patient approach here. i expect to be taken as i give it at my word and assumed good faith of, as i have. Elsewhere i've had and a large group of people have had very big difficulties from someone who doesn't bear talking about any further than this and who is not here: who massively, over more than a year, pretends to understand Japanese more than they really do, and obviously does not understand much of Japanese, and attacked the large group, elsewhere, after first attacking me (and mass blanking in WP); my defending myself under sustained vicious personal attacks of my character and competence; then they'were lying about that, saying it wasn't attack, to get away with it; then my retreating to the big group elsewhere, there expressing my grief, disgust and experiences of them only to have them come attack the big group in superficially pretending defending themselves; big group has realised and banned them; all irrelevant except to say what i said above is serious and real, not to be mis-construed as snob. Biting new guys (diff) (diff) (diff) as i responsibly r.p.a.–ed, patiently replied & collapsed and moved on from. Something misleading gone on BTS? ——--macropneuma 22:47, 30 December 2012 (UTC) ——--macropneuma 23:03, 30 December 2012 (UTC) —— --macropneuma 23:20, 30 December 2012 (UTC) ——--macropneuma 23:30, 30 December 2012 (UTC) —— Please email me. ——--macropneuma 23:08, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

My original point in this discussion was to change the manual of style for Japan-related articles so that the macron would never be used on people's names unless they explicitly were choosing to use it. What I took from the above discussion was that my proposal was rejected, so I dropped the topic. Moving articles with macrons within the title is a completely different issue. The current manual of style, without alterations, allows moves to other names. So it's a different discussion. If you want to put macrons on Tokyo and Osaka and Kyoto, please start a new discussion on that. Also, I have been putting requested move away from macrons since I started wikipedia in February 2012: Toshiro Mifune, Kaneto Shindo, etc. I started announcing these moves here so that members can be aware of the discussion. It's not a new thing. JoshuSasori (talk) 08:41, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Related questions

I've already raised a related point below and am grateful for the advice I received. I would like to point out that there are editors who are capable of writing solid articles on Japan-related subjects but who have very little knowledge of the language or writing system(s). As the English language/auto-translated sources I use don't use macrons I honestly don't have a much of a clue about whether or where they should be used. Is the list [[12]] accurate? Is a more complete list available? Is there a similar one available for given names? Tigerboy1966  10:22, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the list and associated spellings look accurate. For an idea of where & why macrons are used, go to the list on that same page and note #54 & #73. Look at the English spellings, and compare the kanji. Boneyard90 (talk) 10:31, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

OK. I'll do my best (have changed Ando=> Andō on the Daiwa Major article), but I will make mistakes and I hope you will be patient with my efforts. Tigerboy1966  13:42, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Aw, shoot yeah, don't worry about it. We're all kinds of patient around here with new people. It's the old Japanophile veterans that want to kill each other. Boneyard90 (talk) 15:05, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Well I'm used to dealing with people who add comments like "sea biskit was the best racehorse ever cos my dad said so and it said so in the film" to Horse Racing articles, so I am familiar the idea of being patient with new people.  Tigerboy1966  15:50, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Requested moves:

• Sōka Gakkai -> Soka Gakkai - discuss at Talk:Sōka Gakkai#Requested move to Soka Gakkai
• Tōru Iwatani -> Toru Iwatani - discuss at Talk:Tōru Iwatani#Requested move to Toru Iwatani

JoshuSasori (talk) 08:36, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Joshu, I count five different sections on this talk page right now (in the last five days) from you about requested moves. These posts of yours are becoming disruptive. You don't need to post here every single time you propose an article be moved based on macrons. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 14:44, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

No, I think it's probably better that he at least informs us. I wish he wouldn't go around requesting pages with macrons to remove the macrons and never the other way around, even when the subject uses macrons him/herself, but it's better that we at least know about it. In fact, it would probably better for the consistency and academic integrity of the encyclopedia if the MOS was amended so as to either use macrons in all but the most exceptional cases, or to treat macrons/non-macrons like national varieties of English and ban arbitrary name-changes. elvenscout742 (talk) 16:46, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough, but rather than flooding this page with threads, there are better ways to handle it. One can open a thread here requesting changes to the MOS, for example. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 18:23, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

That also already happened. elvenscout742 (talk) 00:39, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Tsuchigumo (土蜘蛛?) is not an extant kind of spider. It has the meanings listed below: elvenscout742 (talk) 08:57, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Looks like a malformed machine translation to me. I've cleaned it up slightly. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 09:10, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Requested move: Shōhei Imamura -> Shohei Imamura - discuss at Talk:Shōhei Imamura#Requested move to Shohei Imamura. JoshuSasori (talk) 01:42, 31 December 2012 (UTC)