Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/March 2008

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V·T·E

These comments were posted a while back in the (now) archived section of the talk page in 2007. I would like the opportunity to respond to them. They can be viewed here.

First things first,copied from the original Archive:

:"Can anyone substantiate or refute the kanji-etymology related claim here. It would be especially helpful if someone would post the alleged pre-modernization version of the kanji 鬼. I would have assumed that if there was a kyūjitai version of 鬼 it would be noted in its wiktionary entry, which led me to doubt the claim. Thank you, Bradford44 13:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense, IMHO. That whole shtick is not present in my Kojien at the least, and I tend to trust Kojien over some Dojo's students. Also, if the originatior's name is Kuki Something, and the school's name is Kukishinryu, then the name translates to "Kuki's Gods' School", not "Nine Gods Spirit School". TomorrowTime 21:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)"

My response:

The problem here is that many Kojien do not list the kokuji for this kanji. So, you won't find the "character" in them- but sometimes you will find the explanation about the demon/god thing under "ki" and pronounciing it as "kami"; While it harkens back to the original, it does not fully explain the roots of the pronunciation and meaning. This creates a problem because the older versions of the kanji's writing is unused thus has become so obscure that it falls into a "generalized, scholastic-non-existence", if you would. Ultimately, you have to look into Kokuji dictionaries to find this kanji, an explanation (like the one I have given) or even the original form of the character.

Full translation of the name:

The style of translation, when it comes to a budo names, is generally to give a full translation of the characters. This includes (but is not limited to) the person's name. This is typical of the type of writing found on the subject and it is commonly done by many scholars in the field of Hoplology.

Second things second,copied from the original Archive:

:"Ok, I was bored at work, so I went roving throught the Kukishinryu page. Here's the part in Japanese, corresponding to the claim:

すなわち、九鬼の「九」は九字の“九”、「鬼」とは鬼神(おにがみ)の意で、これを“カミ”と読み、鬼の字の上に点（ノ）がない特殊な文字を当てる。したがって、本来、“クカミ”と称するのが正式であるが、今日では、徳川期以降の慣行によって“クキ”と訓(よ)んでいる。Bradford44 "

"Apart from the fact that the claim in the wiki article is an almost word by word copyvio, the claim also suffers from mild case of a clumsy translation. What the Japanese part says is that: "The 鬼 character was once used, but the implied reading for this character was 鬼神(おにがみ), making the proper school name “クカミ”(Kukami), but in time the implication got lost and the “クキ” (Kuki) reading took sway. To indicate the difference between the "regular" character for oni and the schools very own onigami reading, the little dash on top of the character is not used. The wiki article, in contrast, makes it seem like the character 鬼 was once the accepted character for kami that changed it's meaning somewhere in the meandering paths of time. Which is not true, and the fault for this misunderstanding lies in the English translation of the Japanese text on the Kukishinryu homepage. TomorrowTime 16:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)"

My response:

Tomorrowtime does not give an accurate translation, I am truly sorry to say. He/She does not translate but instead, interprets the meaning; It never says in the Japanese text: "...the 鬼 character was once used..." anywhere. The original Japanese, however, is more about the pronunciation and when fully translated it reads as:

"Therefore, the 九 in Kuki is '9', as in 'Kuji'. 鬼 means "Onigami," you read it as 'Kami'. You use a special character (letter) without the dash on the top and therefore, originally the official pronunciation is Kukami. Since the Tokugawa era, it has been customarily read as 'Kuki'. "

As you can see, it's different from what Tomorrowtime has written. There is also a great deal of difference between my initial post and what was written on the Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho Website. Incidentally, nowhere did I state or imply: "...the character 鬼 was once the accepted character for kami that changed it's meaning somewhere in the meandering paths of time". In the instance of the "Kuki" name , which uses the forementioned Kokuji, this is true and one DID replace the other. This is EXACTLY what I have written in the article. It has been taken it out of context here. One came before the other, but this does not mean that one was used before the other in writing the name "Kuki" when the Emperor of Japan bestowed it upon the family. In fact, older documents (scrolls) clearly show the "hornless" character. Thanks for taking the time to read!

Mekugi (talk) 13:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I never claimed to be an expert on the subject, nor did I portend to be offering a perfect translation. I merely killed some time at work going through a Japanese website, trying to find some info somebody here wanted. You seem to know much more about this than I do, so I believe the article will be in good hands with you. That said, I'm still having a hard time believing the explanation for the kanji... The website above, more specifically the Japanese quote above, makes no mention of the hornless character being kyujitai, nor does it say anything about the emperor bestowing use of the kanji on the school. In fact, if we are going into the fineries of the translation, this part: "特殊な文字を当てる" seems to me to mean that whoever is the subject of that sentence (the school, presumably) arbitrarily chose/created the character and decided it would mean whatever it means. Or am I wrong? TomorrowTime (talk) 09:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

You're right, it doesn't talk about the kanji being kyujitai. Kokuju history and the variances that popped up from 1500 on are where to find it- but sometimes not. I have seen it once at the public library in Aichi and in Mie but haven't in others- I guess it is not a matter of much heated debate or academic precendence. It's a very unusual character, so it is also very misleading (in the article I try to express that). Kyujitai are in of themselves not always very good source of etymology of the kanji that were created and fell away through Japanese history; Many times they are a collection of kanji that had been in modern or catholic circulation until the mid-40's; Many times kokuji are included with details (samurai, tako, etc.) but not all. They have to have been in some sort of common circulation for the majority of the Kyujitaijiten. This is the case here, so it won't show up in them usually- but one will find the "kami" pronunciation without any further expansion as to why under the 'oni' character. The history of the name-change is not in that sentence, it is in the history section of the same website though; although it is regarding the history of the family name (they are still around, that particular family now heads the Kumano Hongu shrine).特殊な文字を当てるis written vageuly, "special character" does not mean a whole lot without a clear explanation. It's not given there, but it is found in the book "Kukishinden Zensho" along with the corresponding characters.

Mekugi (talk) 10:07, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The character 鬼 without horn is a variation of 鬼 called 異体字. See ja:字体#異体字, ja:漢字#異体字 and this. And the 鬼 without horn is sometimes used when refferd to ja:鬼子母神 or Hariti in Japan. Because she became a goddess from an oni, and the character shows that she's not an oni anymore. And take a look at East Japan Railway Company. Their name is 東日本旅客鉄道株式会社, but they use a different character in their logo. The character 鉄 is a combination of 金/money and 失/lose, so they choose to use a 金 and 矢/arrow combination in their logo, wishing not to lose money. As for the pronunciation, I have no idea. Oda Mari (talk) 18:41, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

AWESOME ODA! Thank you so much!! Mekugi (talk) 14:14, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Currently there are only such representations. Maybe there are paintings that represent the kana, but that has not yet been listed. If that gets listed, then we can put the current content under===Writing systems===, but for now, ==Representations== is the most inculusive and semantically appropriate name for the section.Asrghasrhiojadrhr (talk) 07:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC) retracted Asrghasrhiojadrhr (talk) 08:34, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Failing to understand this comment, I looked in your contributions history. I see such recent changes as this; these help me understand. I also see that Nihonjoe suggested that you should bring up the matter here, that you bring it up as a declaration rather than a question, and that you're continuing to change articles to make them accord with your idea.

Perhaps your idea is a good one, but if so please phrase it more understandably and wait for responses before you act on it.

Meanwhile, I've tampered with your title above, in the hope of making it easier to understand (and perhaps also easier for Mediawiki software to parse). -- Hoary (talk) 08:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

They list the mayogana that the kana derives from, but it NEEDS to be made clear which mayogana the hiragana derives from and where the katagana dervies from. For excample, け comes from 計 and ケ comes from 介, but the info box does not make that clear.Asrghasrhiojadrhr (talk) 09:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but what is "mayogana"? Kana with condiments? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 09:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Must be Man'yōgana. Hope that helps you catchup. Fg2 (talk) 09:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah. I'm not as familiar with the older stuff. Thanks for the link. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 10:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I meant, Man'yōgana.Asrghasrhiojadrhr (talk) 05:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The article in question already has exhaustive tables of all kana and manyogana, so which "infoboxes" are you actually referring to? Jpatokal (talk) 07:52, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

He is refering to these infoboxes, I believe:

wikiproject
hiragana japanese hiragana wikiproject katakana
transliteration	ke
hiragana origin	計
katakana origin	介
unicode	U+3051

As you can see, the two man'yogana are listed, but which one is the progenitor of which kana is not specified. However, I don't think this is such a major problem - the man'yogana is in the same order as the characters above it - first the hiragana, then the katakana. TomorrowTime (talk) 09:54, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I am excatly refering to those infoboxes. Yes, it is not a BIG problem, but a problem nonetheless. In any case, infoboxes found in other articles and articles of other subjects are more clear, and I believe clarity is a good thing. In any case, I would fix the articles myself, but I just don't have a very good idea as to how to categorize the different man'yogana progeitors.68.148.164.166 (talk) 08:15, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it's not really an issue as they are listed in respective order. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 15:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

But it's ambiguious! You guys are UNBELIEVABLE!68.148.164.166 (talk) 20:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I made the mistake! Why coudn't somemone else!?68.148.164.166 (talk) 20:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Can anyone help with the translation of the text on the soldier's sash? Thanks User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 09:04, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

These are the characters: 上諌訪町入營兵 (the last one is obscured, but I think it's 兵). Not sure about the meaning of the whole, but I can give you the meanings for the kanji one by one, if you can make something out of that: (up/upper) (remonstrate) (visit/seek) (town) (be in charge of) (soldier). TomorrowTime (talk) 09:24, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

They're hard to read, aren't they. The first four are the name of the town, Kamisuwa-machi (上諏訪町). The article 諏訪市 says Kamisuwa was formed as a village in 1874 and became a town in 1891. In 1941 it merged with other places, forming the city of Suwa. Fg2 (talk) 10:13, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Right you are. Dammit, I should've put two and two together and figured 上諏訪 to be a place name :). I also figured out 入營 to read as nyuuei, and to mean draft. So basicaly, the sash says "draftee from Kamisuwa". Not as pompous as it appears, is it... :P TomorrowTime (talk) 10:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

And the soldier's name is 溝口恭男, maybe Yasuo Mizoguchi. Oda Mari (talk) 14:42, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Folks, I don't know enough about these, but they do not appear to be hoaxes, even if they are conspiracy theories, there's too much meat on them. Please check out Unit 831, Nakajima "Subaru"/Mitsubishi "Matsuraboshi, and Mitsubishi "Raimaru"/"Kamaru and chime in on the AfD. Thanks! Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 01:13, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

What makes you think they're not hoaxes? I can't find a single hit for a Japanese-language page on "Unit 831" on Google (except a few obvious typos of 731), much less ja-wiki. Jpatokal (talk) 05:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I wrote in the deletion discussion that they're not obviously hoaxes. What they obviously are is bad translations. The first step is to show sources, and then people who read the language they're written in can then make it easier to decide what they are. Without those sources we should delete the articles, and I've since expressed that opinion in the deletion discussion. But if the author comes forth with sources, and they turn out to be reliable, the article might be worth saving. Fg2 (talk) 05:46, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

One of the reasons for deciding to speak for deletion was, as Jpatokal says, I'd searched for information and been unable to find any. Early on I commented that we should take the time to look more closely, and when I did I was unable to find any sources, so I recommended deletion unless someone adds sources to the article. My thanks go to Chris for agreeing that it deserves looking at, and to Jpatokal for giving more confidence in the decision to delete them.

Jpatokal asked Chris why he thinks they might not be hoaxes. I can't answer for him, but perhaps he had seen my comments that they're not obviously hoaxes. The translation sounded a lot like several other articles, some of which I worked on a couple of years ago, some of which I saw Charles Matthews work on, and most recently, the article Kobeseiko Te-Gō by the author of Unit 831 and the others; see the initial post for a flavor of it. I have no reason to believe the author posted them as hoaxes, but as I wrote in the deletion discussion, "Wikipedia:Verifiability states, 'exceptional claims require exceptional sources.' These articles make exceptional claims, but list no sources." Fg2 (talk) 12:07, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

For me, they just seem substantive enough to say there's not a 15 year old kid in Kobe laughing his head off at us believing such things. It has the ring of implausible, but not meant as a lie. Now, where's my tinfoil hat? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 05:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

"It has the ring of implausible, but not meant as a lie." That pretty much sums up my reaction. Nicely put. Fg2 (talk) 11:19, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Can anyone please check the article Kesen language?

All the sources there are based on publications by one author without any peer review, which is quite problematic for articles about dialects. Maybe somebody who knows Japanese can assess it better. I saw that the article exists in Japanese and Korean Wikipedias, and there has been discussions about it there, but there was almost zero discussion here in en.wiki. Any help would be appreciated. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 13:48, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Unless I'm missing something here, this seems like a bunch of garbage to me ... some guy doesn't like the fact that his way of speaking is labeled a dialect, so he calls it a language and this becomes newsworthy? He's not even a linguist. I don't like the idea of Wikipedia perpetuating original research ... just because some nut publishes a book, that doesn't make it legitimate. If there was already an article on the Kesen dialect, I'd suggest merging a little bit of the content as a kind of footnote ... but no such article exists. I'm not sure if it should be deleted though, it does have ~6000 Google hits. Maybe moving this article to Kesen dialect would be the best solution? CES (talk) 15:29, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I asked this at a couple of other places, so i'll reply at Talk:Kesen language to keep the discussion centralized. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 19:43, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The article List of national instruments is on Peer Review. It lists koto as the national instrument of Japan. The reference it gives is a web page, About the Japanese Koto. Does anyone have a more authoritative citation for the status of the koto? Fg2 (talk) 03:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't, and I'm not even sure where you'd look. Do print encyclopedia's usually list national instruments? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:47, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I just did a little searching and found the following:

• Britannica Concise Encyclopedia
• Japan Travel Bureau UK
• How the Koto Became Popular (TOPICS Online Magazine)
• Target.com
• DUO EN

That should probably do for now. (^_^) ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 04:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Of the five, EB is particularly convincing. I'll mention it at the peer review. Fg2 (talk) 04:36, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Another editor called Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Japan/archive to my attention. It's an automatically generated archive of deletion discussions removed from WikiProject Deletion sorting/Japan by The wubbot. Entries include the name of the article and the outcome of the discussion (keep, delete, merge etc.). Now that I know about it I expect to retire from removing completed Articles for Deletion (AfD) discussions. Apparently by not doing this manually, I'll make room for the bot to keep a complete archive. I plan to keep maintaining the list of deletion proposals. Fg2 (talk) 05:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at Talk:Fujiwara effect about the accuracy of the transliteration. After a review of the links from the Japanese version of Sakuhei Fujiwara, I am mostly convinced that the formal name is Fujihara, which was spelled "Fujiwhara" by Sakuhei himself to approximate his regional dialect, which was subsequently changed to "Fujiwara" by bewildered writers. Comments by editors who can review those Japanese language sites, and any other relevant sources, would be appreciated. - BanyanTree 14:59, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Hm, tough call. On the one hand, it's definitely an unorthodox transliteration. Frankly, I have no idea what the "wha" sound is supposed to sound like, I'm guessing maybe it's a bit like "ゥハ", but I really don't know, so saying that this is closer to the regional pronounciation is a bit vague. Like others, I would also think typo, if I saw this without any forewarning. On the other hand, (apparently) it's the man's prefered spelling of his name, and there is precedent for unorthodox transliteration of names in Leiji Matsumoto, for instance. TomorrowTime (talk) 08:06, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Though that precedent is for unorthodox romanizations which are the most commonly used. There's no indication that "Fujiwhara" is the most common romanization. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 02:09, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi all. I just want to bring to your attention of that page. I was reading up information about Speed (band) and I came across her wiki entry. The page was in such bad shape and I went ahead and fixed the format & a little bit of grammar. However, because my Japanese sucks, it's difficult for me to add references & citations. (I also noticed that it isn't tagged by Project Japan.) She is (or was) such a well known singer, I think it’s worth it to have a better English entry. Thanks TheAsianGURU (talk) 17:28, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know anything about the subtleties or the syntax of this, but I distrust a single-purpose user who deletes blocks of text. Would one of you who knows the language please give this a look? Thanks, Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 02:49, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't the title of the article Ryukoka be spelled Rōkyoku? Or are these two separate genres? There are Google hits for both spellings. Badagnani (talk) 01:18, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Although I'm not familiar with the types of music covered, they are 2 distinctly separate articles in the Japanese Wikipedia:

1. ja:流行歌 (Ryūkōka)
2. ja:浪曲 (Rōkyoku), which redirects to ja:浪花節 (Naniwa-bushi)

--Endroit (talk) 02:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Articles created at Rōkyoku and Ryukoka. Expansion from ja:WP would be greatly appreciated. I think the text at Ryukoka is wrong, as the description is clearly that of Rōkyoku. Badagnani (talk) 02:57, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Need kanji at Kazutoki Umezu (and also need to know which is the surname). Badagnani (talk) 07:07, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Done. Badagnani (talk) 07:12, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

We should not have both a Category:Japanese diplomats and an under-maintained List of Japanese diplomats, one or the other should be chosen. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 07:43, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm wondering if this is might be one of those instances in which deliberate redundancy is constructive -- even preferable at this state of Wikipedia's development. At some point in the future, the choice between "category" or "list" may be valuable; but for now, why not both?

The article about the United States Ambassador to Japan includes a list of diplomats. This article is included in Category:Lists of United States ambassadors.

However, only former diplomats Michael Armacost, Joseph Grew, and Walter Mondale are included in Category:United States Ambassadors to Japan.

In contradistinction, diplomats Douglas MacArthur and Mike Mansfield are only included in Category:Ambassadors of the United States.

In this somewhat similar context, I wonder if User:Kintetsubuffalo's entirely reasonable question or proposal could begin to be seen in a somewhat different light.

A useful corollary to User:Kintetsubuffalo's proposed topic for discussion might be: What should be done to correct blatant omissions in a range of categories for the article about Japanologist/scholar/ambassador Edwin O. Reischauer? Why isn't it an error to have omitted Reischauer's name from several overlapping or duplicative categories:

• Category:Ambassadors of the United States?
• Category:United States Ambassadors to Japan?
• Category:Harvard University alumni?
• Category:Harvard University faculty?

Alternately, why wouldn't it have been a good thing to have added each one of these categories to the Reischauer article? Why isn't redundant duplication construed as an enhancement in terms of the Reischauer article?

Why isn't is a good thing to have both Category:Japanese diplomats and List of Japanese diplomats? For me, this isn't a mere rhetorical question. -- Tenmei (talk) 16:27, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I think this is one case where having both would be more beneficial, especially if they were in historical order. As an alternate to a list article, perhaps a succession template could be created which would allow people to go from one to the next. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:05, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a matter of having it all in one place. There is an existing article United States Ambassador to Japan with a list, but there is not a converse Japanese Ambassador to the United States. The only article of Japanese ambassadors-to-x is for Germany. The few that are on here do not have succession boxes, do not show who came before or after, and for Kurusu Saburo it is not easy to see what precisely his role was. The list article has half a dozen, for which there must be hundreds of Japanese ambassadors just since Meiji. As meticulous as the articles get on every manga character's favorite fruit and every idol star's blood type, actual interlocking histories of the people who made things happen have huge gaps.

As an aside, I just filled in the gaps on the US Ambassadors to Burma, some with nothing more than stubs, to show the progression from one to the next in each post. (I was for a time the Nihonjoe of that Project :) ) Check out Henry A. Byroade for an example. Japanese foreign service officers should have at least that, where information is available. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 05:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

A discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#RFC mandatory quotation of public domain text concerns whether material taken from public-domain sources must be surrounded with quotation marks and attributed. Since many articles on Japan-related topics started as excerpts from CIA or Library of Congress articles, this concerns the Japan project. Interested editors are invited to participate. Fg2 (talk) 03:11, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I just created and article for Ippasankyumētoru Summit (1839峰 Ippasankyumētoruhō). I am debating if it would be better since the name include arabic numerals to render the name 1839 Meter Summit. This makes the meaning much clearer to the English reader, but impossible for the reader to pronounce. The pronunciation is of course included in the article, but if they hear the name in Japanese, they might have trouble looking it up. Your comments are welcome.imars (talk) 07:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

That's the name of a peak, if I understood this correctly, right? And the "meters" in the name are implied, I suppose? Tough call, but I'd say go with the number. There is precedent to that in 109 (department store), and you can make the pronounced name a redirect. TomorrowTime (talk) 08:48, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Correct, that is the name of the peak. I guess they could not think of anything inspiring to call it. You are doing a geographic survey and you indentify the umpteenth peak. What'll we call it Mr. Tanaka? I dunno, how tall is it?

I think you need to add a macron over the first "u." Also, I agree that "meters" (or "metoru") should be left out, since it's not actually part of the reading for the name. Douggers (talk) 11:12, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I've been trying to create and expand some pages on Shinto shrines lately, and I was surprised to find out that there is no info box for these pages. Something like Template:Infobox Buddhist temple. Proposed attributes would be:

• name
• img
• img_size
• img_capt
• shrine category - such as imperial shrine, inari shrine, local shrine, etc.
• dedication - applicable if the shrine is dedicated to a specific kami
• founded
• closed
• founder
• address
• country
• phone
• website

List may not be perfect, suggestions welcome. These are the important basics, however. I'm really new at this, so I'm not really sure how infoboxes come to be, but I think if Buddhist Temples have a box, Shrines would benefit from them as well. Anyone that can help me out with this? Torsodog (talk) 01:12, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Looks like LordAmeth created one at Template:Infobox Shinto shrine. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Torsodog, thanks for the list of information to include in the box. I've done a few shrines now and this is a helpful organizing tool. Fg2 (talk) 07:18, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for finding the box! I knew there had to be one in existence, but I couldn't track one down. And the list was my pleasure! Torsodog (talk) 21:07, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

As I am adding infoboxes to articles on castles, shrines, temples, etc, and romanizing addresses, I am running into a problem. Town (町) level placenames generally do not appear in Wikipedia, and to be honest I'm not sure where to look to find out if a given ~~町 placename should be romanized as chō or as machi. I may be forgetting/overlooking some really simple solution... Ideas? LordAmeth (talk) 13:59, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

That's a hard one. I suggest posting them here so many different people can help. More eyes looking for the information is always useful. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 14:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

A few years ago I found a postal web site that I believe had that information for every single postal address in the country. Unfortunately I can't recall where I posted it (it would have been archived since then), and of course the post office isn't the post office anymore. But I'll try looking for it and if I come up with it I'll put it here. BTW, I encountered the same problem in putting information boxes in shrines yesterday. The new boxes organize the information nicely and provide a consistent look. Thanks for these. Fg2 (talk) 21:24, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Try 郵便番号検索 - 日本郵便. Click any prefecture, then any municipality. The localities all come up with readings in katakana. Fg2 (talk) 21:31, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Beautiful. Thanks, Fg2. LordAmeth (talk) 02:45, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Glad you like it! I've added it to the Resources section of the project page so it won't move when the talk page gets archived. Fg2 (talk) 02:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I have a book I got when I lived in Japan that basically does the same thing. It's getting old, though. Thanks for the link, Fg2. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:45, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean town level placenames don't appear here? As far as I know, we have an article (generally a stub) about every town and village in Japan, usually at "name, prefecture" with basic information including the romanization of the name. They're listed in the prefecture articles and categorized by prefecture. If any are missing it's probably due to fairly recent gappei activity. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course we've seen articles on just about every municipality in the country, and noted your name in the edit history, but there's more! A city may have lots of chō or machi or both within it. We're far from having articles on all, and may not even want to (or maybe we will). Jinbōchō, Tokyo is just one example of a chō that's a level or two below being a municipality: it lies in the Kanda part of the municipality of Chiyoda in Tokyo. These appear in addresses and the readings are the additional information necessary for the new infoboxes. Fg2 (talk) 05:13, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Just browsing through Category:Neighborhoods of Tokyo, I see three articles for -machi (Kōjimachi, Ōtemachi and Tamachi) and six for -chō (Hamamatsuchō, Jinbochō, Kabukichō, Nagatachō, Ōizumigakuenchō and Yūrakuchō). Of course, there are scads more chō and machi in Tokyo without articles. Fg2 (talk) 05:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Right right. Sorry. Didn't mean to imply there are none, but these are exceptional examples, are they not? I wouldn't expect to see articles on every single "town" within a ku, within a city, in all of Japan.. The vast majority simply aren't notable, and moreso, there's just not all that much to say, is there? LordAmeth (talk) 12:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah, so we're not talking about chō or machi that are municipalities of Japan, but rather chō or machi level subdivisions of cities. Sorry for the confusion (gaijin mistake). -- Rick Block (talk) 13:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

It looks like you've got it all figured out now, but just my $0.02:

1. Actual municipalities should all be listed in the 郵便番号検索 or on Wikipedia Japan.
2. There are lots of "sub-municipalities" (集落, which I like to call "neighborhoods") with the suffix 町, and the reading is entirely case-by-case (and is usually not consistent; i.e. I've seen 鉄砲町 as てっぽうちょう and てっぽうまち in different cities).
3. As for the question of whether or not neighborhoods should have articles: I'd say no unless they're particularly notable for some reason. I was shocked to find that the neighborhood I grew up in has a Wikipedia article (Kenwood, Minneapolis). Frankly I don't think it deserves one.

-Amake (talk) 03:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

There is an article called Zeniarai Benten about the shrine in Kamakura, but the official name is Zeniarai Benzaiten Ugafuku Jinja Shrine (銭洗弁財(才)天宇賀福神社. It's often called Zeniarai Benten (銭洗弁天), but that's not his complete name, just a nickname. I have a picture of the sign in front of the shrine to prove it. Shouldn't the present page become a redirect and the article moved to Zeniarai Benzaiten? Urashimataro (talk) 08:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I recommend uploading the picture to Commons, then adding it to the article after you boldly move it to its full title. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 15:40, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Not sure the article needs a photo of a sign to prove the name... A photo of the shrine would be preferable. Best, a picture of people washing money there. The article is presently at Zeniarai Benten shrine. Fg2 (talk) 22:23, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

OK. From now on I will be bold :-). And I will take the pic of people washing the money. 220.148.192.32 (talk) 23:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The name should be at its common usage. "Zeniarai Benten" seems much more common than "Zeniarai Benzaiten" ... so I say keep it at its current location of Zeniarai Benten shrine. I might have a few pictures of the place too; I'll see if I can find them and upload them. CES (talk) 02:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I found some pictures on flickr with proper license and attached them to the article. --Sushiya (talk) 02:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Those illustrate both the situation and the washing of money. Fg2 (talk) 03:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I have created a subcategory for Category:Stock characters by characteristics called Category:Fictional elderly martial arts masters. I'm sure there are some people on here that know of some articles that can fit into this category. Thanks. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 20:16, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello,

there are currently 45 articles in the scope of this project which are tagged with notability concerns. I have listed them here. (Note: this listing is based on a database snapshot of 12 March 2008 and may be slightly outdated.)

I would encourage members of this project to have a look at these articles, and see whether independent sources can be added, whether the articles can be merged into an article of larger scope, or possibly be deleted. Any help in cleaning up this backlog is appreciated. For further information, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Notability.

If you have any questions, please leave a message on the Notability project page or on my personal talk page. (I'm not watching this page however.) Thanks! --B. Wolterding (talk) 15:44, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I was wondering if someone could provide the Kanji for the following pages: Ango, Jikijitsu, Hitsuzendo, Inka, Jikido, Roshi, Sanzen, Oryoki, Zenga, Zen master, Zazenkai, and Shiho? Anyone's help in this regard will be greatly appreciated. (Mind meal (talk) 09:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC))

Rōshi is probably 老師; Zenga 禅画; Zen master 禅師 (zenji) (see 道元禅師; zazenkai 座禅会. Dharma transmission links to ja:印可 which is pronounced inka but you'll recall we recently discussed a different kanji at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/February 2008#Inka. Fg2 (talk) 11:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, someone has added kanji for a few. I have more requests: Angya, Gasa (hat), and Jisha. Thanks to everyone. (Mind meal (talk) 16:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC))

Angya is 行脚. Kasa (I'm not aware of a pronunciation gasa except as a combining form -gasa so I expect the article should be moved to Kasa (hat) and broadened in scope) is 笠; see illustrations at ja:笠 including a photo of a display of several kinds of kasa at a museum, and a drawing of a komusō. It's a generic word for "hat" and is not especially Buddhist; amigasa (woven straw hats) came in a variety of shapes; samurai wore jingasa (lacquered hats). In jidaigeki the stereotype of a toseinin (a wandering yakuza) includes the sandogasa, the cape, and the leggings (and a sword). All of these are combining forms; uncombined the word appears to be kasa, although it's possible Buddhism uses a pronunciation all its own. Fg2 (talk) 21:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Maruki Iri and Maruki Toshi both currently redirect to The Hiroshima Panels, the set of works for which they are most famous. As much as I like referring to people by the traditional (Japanese) name order, I do believe that the manual of style dictates that people born after 1868 are referred to by Western name order. If anyone is interested in creating biography articles for these two artists, under Iri Maruki and Toshi Maruki, or for that matter, under some combined article title, such as Iri and Toshi Maruki, and then fixing the redirects, I think it'd be great. Cheers. LordAmeth (talk) 10:08, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

There are actually four Hiroo articles in Wikipedia.

• Hiroo Station in Tokyo
• Hiroo, Hokkaidō in the district of the same name
• Hiroo District, Hokkaidō in Tokachi Subprefecture
• Mount Hirō

All use the same kanji: 広尾.

Am I correct in understanding the Manual of Style that we are to use the macron in representing the romanization of the long 'o'? Granted that the town uses Hiroo on its own website. Would it be more consistent if I changed Mount Hirō to Mount Hiroo? Or the other three instances to Hirō? Do we care if they are romanized differently? imars (talk) 13:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Fixing the link to the district. imars (talk) 13:18, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Dunno what the manual of style makes of this, but those are os from two different kanji, so I think it'd be better to leave it as "Hiroo". Putting a macron on the o would suggest that the names consist of only two morae, when in fact it's three. (A similar, even more extreme case is the hō-ō :) TomorrowTime (talk) 14:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You can check out the last section of Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)/misc14 for a rather in-depth archived discussion on this topic. Dekimasuよ! 14:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Also cf. "Mino(o)" in Osaka, which we have as "Minoh, Osaka"; the JA Wikipedia says "箕面市（みのおし）は、大阪府北部の北摂地域に位置する市。英文での表記は MINOH CITY （阪急電鉄では MINO-O と表記）。" So "Hiroh" might also be an option. And lastly, Shōhei Ōoka - sounds like Oooka's not oookay. Dekimasuよ! 14:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know a long o is still two morae, so there is no difference between Hirō and Hiroo as far as that goes. Both are still 3 mora long. However, I find the argument for reflecting the kanji a good one. I think I will change it to Hiroo. Hiroh would be novel, but as the town's official website goes with hiroo, I am more keen to go with that. Thanks to all! imars (talk) 17:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. As the second "o" is from a different kanji, the MOS-JA indicates it should not be represented as "ō". ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 21:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Putting a macron on the o would suggest that the names consist of only two morae, when in fact it's three. Er, no. Either I misunderstand you, or you've confused morae with syllables. "Hirō" and "Hiroo" both stand for something that's trimoraic. The former is disyllabic; the latter (at least if used in a conventional Hepburn context that permits "Hirō") trisyllabic. -- Hoary (talk) 00:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Oops, you're correct. Serves me right for trying to look smart :) Anyway, I think what I was trying to say is still legible, even with that screw-up, right? TomorrowTime (talk) 09:37, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Am I correct in understanding the Manual of Style that we are to use the macron in representing the romanization of the long 'o'? I can't speak with complete confidence for any 広尾 other than that of the station within Tokyo and its surrounding area; as for this Tokyo 広尾, it has no "long 'o'". Instead, it has two regular 'o's (it isn't just trimoraic, it's trisyllabic), at least when I've heard it said. Thus "Hirō" would be wrong. ("Hiroh" would be just as wrong, adding the "h" nonsense.) "Hiroo" is right. I've seen "Hiro-o", which seems an unnecessary complication but not a bad one. ¶ I happen to have done a fair amount of editing of the article on 鬼海弘雄, whose personal name is pronounced like the name of the station. He rather consistently has his name rendered in roman letters as "Kikai Hiroh". (I'd guess that he avoids "Hiroo" in an effort to avoid the mispronunciation ヒルー, but don't know for sure.) Anyway, I've retained "Hiroh" because that's what he writes, no matter how much I may regret it (and I've obediently reversed the order of his name in reluctant compliance with one of the dafter rules of MoS-ja). -- Hoary (talk) 23:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

While looking for info on Kamakura's Ichi no Torii I found at the [following site] three beautiful pictures of Ichi no Torii, Ni no Torii and the dankazura, photos of a decent size that it would be great to have on Wikipedia and that I happen to need. I am pretty sure the Ichi no Torii one is in public domain now because it doesn't show the damage the gate sustained during the 1922 Kanto earthquake. The dankazura one is obviously old enough. Can anyone date the Ni no Torii one? Also, someone who knows more about these things than I can confirm it's indeed OK to use these pics for Wikipedia Commons? Urashimataro (talk) 00:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The text above the photo notes the absence of the komainu. If you can find out when they were put in place, you'd have a date. The shrine might have that information. Fg2 (talk) 03:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The site says the komainu were placed in 1961. Althogh the site claims that the photo is pre-war, the existence of pedestals without komainu suggests that the photo might be taken after the national movement of metal collection during the war (komainu can be made of metal). Since the people wear good clothes, I suppose it is well after the war (or before the war if the reason of the removal is not the metal collection). Photos taken before 1946 (in some cases 1956) are in public domain in Japan. See commons:Template:PD-Japan-oldphoto. --Sushiya (talk) 04:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Sushiya is correct. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:26, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to everybody. I will go to the shrine and ask about the dogs. Urashimataro (talk) 10:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Just noticed that {{infobox japan station}} has a field for City and then one for Ward. I changed one station to display Chiyoda as the city rather than the ward, since Chiyoda is a municipality, not a ward within a city, and calls itself "Chiyoda City" rather than "Chiyoda Ward" in English. I left the Ward blank.

In a broader context (not just in this railroad station template), wherever we have a space for "city" I favor using the name of the special ward (without the word "city"), imitating Japan Post, which puts shi-chō-son-tokubetsuku on the same level. Any other opinions about this? Fg2 (talk) 11:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you. Going with what Japan Post does seems logical to me. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:25, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The enlish homepage does say "city", but I still think it might just be slightly confusing thinking that 区 translates to a ward. --Hirohisat ^初夏 22:17, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that 区 translates to "ward." But of course the 23 special wards have a status that's more than ku; they're tokubetsuku. As we know, tokubetsu means "special" so this situation needs a special translation. The tokubetsuku themselves translate this longer expression not as "special wards" but as "city." So if we think of translating not 区 alone but 特別区 it makes more sense. Translating 区 as "city" would definitely be confusing. Separately, please note that I do not want Wikipedia to write "Minato City" or "Nerima City." What I want is to fill in the City blank (not the Ward blank) in information boxes with "Minato" or "Nerima." One example where I did this is Tokyo Station. Fg2 (talk) 22:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps "special city", then, or "special ward"? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 22:57, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, there's no need to create a new translation. The special wards are legally municipalities, just as cities are, and they call themselves cities in English. Conversely they are not wards of cities. So when figuring out what goes where in the information boxes, they belong on the City line, and they do not belong on the Ward line. No need for adding a new line for special city or special ward. Again, that's my opinion... Fg2 (talk) 00:46, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I occasionally watch speedy deletions to see if something notable Japanese comes up. In trying to save one, I found these two Stu Levy and Naru Tanaka that could really use some help. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 03:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Over the past week, I have been trying to overhaul the Yasukuni Shrine article. In doing so, I've greatly improved, in my opinion, all sections other than the Controversy section - a page that is very bloated, constantly being edited and generally out of balance with the rest of the article. On the discussion page, it was proposed that a separate article should be created that completely outlines the controversies surrounding the shrine, while the main article simply has a section outlining the basic details surrounding them. I would really like to get the Yasukuni Shrine article closer to a finished state sometime soon, so any opinions on this matter would be greatly beneficial. Torsodog (talk) 00:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

As long as it can stand on its own, I see nothing wrong with splitting that section out. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:00, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Anyone from this WikiProject wanna give a shot at this article? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:24, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Never heard of it. LordAmeth (talk) 21:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)