Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/April 2019

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Reiwa period looks set to continue getting messy good-faith edits claiming, for example, that the name comes from poem 32 of the Manyoshu, which was written in classical Japanese, when in fact it comes from the Chinese headnotes to 32 poems of the Manyoshu, or that "令" means "order" or "command", when in fact in context it clearly means "good". The worst part is that English-language "reliable sources" are supporting this nonsense, and look set to continue doing so for the foreseeable future. As many learned eyes as possible would be welcome. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:36, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I am hoping for some help on a page I recently started on the architect Hitoshi (Jin) Watanabe, designer of many works in the last century – most notably the Tokyo National Museum. However, I don't speak any Japanese, and his name presents a bit of a challenge. In some sources, he is referred to as 'Hitoshi Watanabe'. In other sources, he is referred to as 'Jin Watanabe'. Occasionally, he is 'Hitoshi (Jin) Watanabe'. Apparently this is something to do with the way the Kanji characters are presented. For the time being, I have called the page 'Hitoshi (Jin) Watanabe', however am now having second thoughts. Is 'Jin' a nickname perhaps, or is it a translation issue? N.B. A WP search will currently lead to Jin Watanabe, who is a handball player, so I guess a disambiguation might be required. The JA Wikipedia page for him is at [1] merlinVtwelve (talk) 06:49, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@MerlinVtwelve: I've cleaned it up a bit. Where did you get "Hitoshi" from? All the Japanese sources I can find list his given name as "Jin". ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:43, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much @Nihonjoe: for sorting this out. As to the sources, no less than the Oxford Dictionary of Architecture [2] lists him as 'Hitoshi', with no mention of Jin. Also this book edited by Heide Fehrenbach & Uta G. Poiger lists him that way, [3], while another one by Alistair Fair [4] uses 'Jin' in brackets. Whereas this[5] museum page and others call him Jin. It's a little confusing to say the least. merlinVtwelve (talk) 02:28, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@MerlinVtwelve: The character for his given name can be read as "Hitoshi", so it's likely just someone (or someones) who didn't do their homework. I can't find a single Japanese source that uses "Hitoshi". Not saying there aren't any, but I haven't found one yet. Maybe we can include a mention of that in the article, just to make sure people don't get confused. I created a Name section. Feel free to add additional references for the English part. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 03:43, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Anecdotally, I know someone who uses exactly both of these two names, one in official contexts and the other informally. My guess is that something similar is going on here and one or the other is a pen name—or whatever the equivalent is for architects. Dekimasuよ! 04:15, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Nihonjoe: it seems entirely possible that it is a nickname of some sort. This article [6] from the 20th Century Society allows for both, calling him Hitoshi ‘Jin’ Watanabe. If this is the case, perhaps it is too early at the moment to state that it is incorrect usage in the article? It's an interesting one, but personally, I have no idea. Certainly there seem to be nuances of some sort. merlinVtwelve (talk) 07:58, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a Japanese source (Kotobank) listing him as "Hitoshi", with a cross-reference from "Jin": https://kotobank.jp/word/%E6%B8%A1%E8%BE%BA%E4%BB%81-1121829 - sourced to デジタル版 日本人名大辞典+Plus pub. Kodansha. But of course, actually his name is always written as 渡辺仁, the only question being how to read it. As Merlin says above, in many cases the reading is not fixed; perhaps having become successful the owner prefers the (Chinese) on-yomi, and changes. This may seem very strange, but consider my name (Chandler) transcribed into Korean. The ko:WP article on Raymond Chandler gives him as 챈들러, which has the ㅐ vowel: this is how my name was pronounced (by everyone else) when I lived in the north of England. But I come from the south of England, where it is pronounced with a long 'a' as in (RP) "father". So I guess it would be 찬들러. Koreans might have all sorts of discussions about which was my "correct" name, but this has no reality to us, because we know it's 'Chandler'. (This is not an exact parallel: much closer would be Gerardus Mercator vs. Geert de Kremer.) Anyway, I guess both versions should be shown, and there should be a note explaining these as alternative readings of the same name. Imaginatorium (talk) 11:21, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I just changed the "Name" section of the article, but it could be improved. I would like to change the infobox, which currently says "Other names"... it seems to me this is wrong; this is not another name, it is simply a different reading of the same name. Unfortunately I don't know much about the infobox template, and am stuck. (I've seen other inappropriate results, such as the Ramen article, where the parameter "country: Japan" (true) gets transcribed into "Origin: Japan", which someone changes to China, because of course the origin-origin of ramen is China.) Perhaps this discussion should move to the article talk page... Imaginatorium (talk) 12:38, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@MerlinVtwelve: Thanks for creating this article. After the recent edits, I think the title is fine as it stands now, but perhaps I can explain a bit more simply what's going on with the names. The kanji in his name is 仁, which is one of the five Confucian virtues and has a range of meanings associated with "benevolence", which is how it is usually translated. When this Chinese word was first introduced in Japan, people pronounced it as "Jin". This is the on-yomi, or Sino-Japanese reading. But of course native Japanese already had a range of words associated with the idea of benevolence, and all of these can be used in personal names. This gives names such as Hitoshi, Masashi, Tadashi, and Yasushi. They are all different, but can all be written with the same kanji, 仁. This creates problems, as you can imagine. For convenience, it is common to forget about the native readings and just call the person "Jin". This is especially so for a person who has become eminent in his field, as with the poet Fujiwara no Teika. That may be what's going on here, or as Dekimasu suggested, the person may have preferred it himself. In any case, I think Hitoshi is probably the name that appears in the official family record, which is why it is given in sources like enclyclopedia entries or biographical dictionaries. But since "Jin" is the name used in most other sources, that's the one we should use in the title of our article. – Margin1522 (talk) 23:42, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a good summary and I'd agree that we should use whichever is the common name without putting another name in quotes, per WP:NICKNAME. Dekimasuよ! 05:13, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks to all the editors who have contributed to this discussion. It has certainly been a bit of a learning curve for me…! merlinVtwelve (talk) 09:25, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

By way of a PS to the above discussion, I have also started a page on architect Masatsugu Kobayashi. I have tried to write the lede, bio, etc., myself – however, for the 'Selected Works' section, I have used Google Translate from ja.wikipedia page[7]. Unfortunately some of the works have not translated very well, e.g. the first one 'secession-type end boat club' and the last one 'Diagonal pole assembly house'. If anyone with Japanese skills wants to take a look it would be appreciated. merlinVtwelve (talk) 10:49, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A bunch of Japan-related portals have been mass-nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Mass-created portals based on a single navbox. Here's the list of at least some of them (there may be others I missed):

• Portal:Music of Japan
• Portal:Japanese language
• Portal:Japanese Buddhism
• Portal:Japanese martial arts
• Portal:Football in Japan
• Portal:Japanese cuisine

It's possible some of them might be able to fixed enough to save them. Feel free to participate in the discussion if you wish. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:24, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I was hoping someone would be interested in taking over the GA review of this article. The original reviewer has withdrawn and looking at the sources it might require someone with some knowledge of Japanese. The review can be found at Talk:Idol × Warrior Miracle Tunes!/GA1. If you want any help or advice with the criteria you can ping me or ask at Wikipedia:Good article help. Thanks AIRcorn (talk) 06:49, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is a discussion on the reliability of Natalie (website) on the reliable sources noticeboard. If you're interested, please participate at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard § Natalie (website) reliable for showing notability of Neptune (owarai)? — Newslinger talk 17:53, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This kinda bothers me. We don't do it for Keiō or anything before, but we have Meiji period, Taishō period, Shōwa period, Heisei period (?) and Reiwa period (!?). This strikes me as a side-effect of the common error in assuming that the 年号 names Meiji and later are actually personal names of the emperors of those eras (see here; or just watch The Last Samurai) and we need to disambiguate the "subordinate topics" from their "origins"; except that no one anywhere calls the current emperor or his presumptive successor by their era names, and very few English-language sources call the Shōwa emperor by that name. So who agrees we should move the five last 元号 articles (or at least the last three) to their base titles? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:00, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We have to go by how they are most commonly referred to in reliable sources. I see these modern ones more often with "period" or "era" as part of the name. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:34, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Nihonjoe: Really? I see English Wikipedia doing it, and of course a lot of sources follow us. Yesterday when the new era name was announced, someone with a knowledge of modern colloquial Japanese immediately posted on Japan Forward that rei meant "order" or "command", then we copied them, and shortly thereafter BBC had taken almost the exact same words; I commented out the text so it's a little better now, and now if you check the BBC article the bogus info has been expunged. Almost no "English-language reliable sources" know what they are talking about when they write about this stuff to begin with. But a quick GBooks search indicated that "Heisei Era" got a little over 3,000 hits, "Heisei Period" got around 2,600, while "Heisei" got 572,000; "Showa" brings up about the same results. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:37, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, I would not have muchuva problem with "period" being changed to "era" (my real problem is that "period" reeks of periodization of Japanese history by scholars, which the imperial reign names, and the relatively arbitrary era names that preceded them, definitely are not), but we really should do that with the other 200+ 元号s as well for consistency; however, I would still prefer some evidence that English-language reliable sources (in this case scholarly sources, not mass media ones) prefer to add "era" even when disambiguation is not needed; I've written dozens of biographical articles that refer to the subjects' births, deaths, court promotions, etc. as happening on "on the first day of the seventh month of Hōan 1 (27 July 1120)" or some such, and I imagine English-language publications that follow this somewhat pedantic pattern probably do similar, rather than the clunky "on the first day of the seventh month of the first year of the Hōan era (27 July 1120)". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:27, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Nihonjoe: Umm ... I'm still waiting for some evidence that, outside English Wikipedia, you see "period" more often than everything else. (Also, if it's about disambiguation, I should point out that the pre-Meiji ones are parenthetically disambiguated.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:32, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Hijiri88: Umm... stop being impatient. I have other things that are more important than looking up information for you. I'll get to it when I can. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:35, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But ... it seems like every time I make a proposal on this page, you show up and oppose it without citing any sources or actual evidence, I request them and then wait patiently for you to reply, you never do, and the thread gets archived with nothing to show for it. I don't want to open an RM when someone is saying they will oppose them, without giving me any evidence that might convince me to change my mind. I'm quite happy to wait, but I'm not happy to see this proposal archivilibustered -- can I assume that if this thread gets archived without you replying you have quietly changed your mind? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:41, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Now that's a load of crap. If you're that impatient, go to the library and look up books that would have it mentioned. You can't expect everything to be done on your timetable unless you start paying me what my time is worth. If you can't do that, then you'll just have to wait until I have the time to look things up. And you may not correctly assume anything about my mind. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 03:45, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Modern Japan (2nd edition) by Peter Duus, uses "Tokugawa period" and "Meiji period" multiple times. The Japanese by Peter Trasker uses "Meiji era", "Taisho era", and "Showa era". Japan: It's History and Culture (3rd edition) by W. Scott Morton uses "X period" in all cases, even for older periods. Showa: The Japan of Hirohito edited by Carol Gluck and Stephen Richards Graubard uses both "era" and "period", as does The Dignity of Nations: Equality, Competition, and Honor in East Asian Nationalism edited by John Fitzgerald and Sechin Y.S. Chien. Those are just a few I found in quick scanning. How many do you want? I'm sure I can find more. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 04:29, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There's a huge difference, IMO, between "Meiji period" and "Heisei period", and you surely agree with me that if we don't need to disambiguate then we shouldn't go out of our way to do so. You can't pretend that a book with a title like Showa: The Japan of Hirohito supports shoehorning "period" into the titles of all these articles when it clearly doesn't do except as a stylistic choice in-line. Anyway, disambiguation is only an issue for Meiji and Taishō, since we don't use Shōwa as the title of our article on the emperor, and in both Japanese and English the base word almost always refers to the era, with "Emperor ..." being added to refer to the emperor. Anyway, could you elaborate on what you mean by Japan: It's History and Culture (3rd edition) by W. Scott Morton uses "X period" in all cases, even for older periods -- I did a quick search of the GBooks preview for "period", and only came up with "Heian", "Asuka", "Nara", etc.; if you think I am talking about the periodization of Japanese history rather than specifically 元号, we have had a miscommunication here and will need to start over. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:47, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You asked for citations, and I provided them. They are all reliable sources (some are even used as college textbooks all over the States). Keep in mind this was just from about 30 minutes of quick searching through them. And no, I didn't think you were talking about the periodization of Japanese history. I simply provided the examples given in the books. If you want to ignore the examples I provided, feel free. I really don't care one way or the other in the long run. I simply think we need to stick to WP:COMMONNAME in order to be consistent, even if that means the more recent Imperial periods are titled differently than older ones. If it means that much to you, go right ahead. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:08, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, yeah, but the reliable sources don't say what you claim they do; you are saying that the era names need either "era" or "period" and so are almost always written that way in English, but the sources you cite seem to use those as occasional stylistic choices and not having any problem with just calling them by their names without "era" or "period", let alone your weird claim that one of them refers to earlier 元号 (as opposed to things like "Nara period" and "Heian period") as "period" and apparent refusal to back up this claim (I only have access to the GBooks preview, but that implies otherwise; if you told me that the non-free portions said otherwise I'd believe you, but your not saying that implies otherwise). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:34, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have the books I cited, and they do say what I said they said. As I said, I'm not stuck on this as you seem to be. Do whatever you want. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:02, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please try to be a bit more civil. that's a load of crap and I'm not stuck on this as you seem to be. Anyway, "what you said" was ambiguous, and I asked you to clarify, which you have yet to do. "Heian period" and "Asuka period" are a whole different category of thing. I have seen very few English-language sources that refer to pre-Meiji 元号 by name except for the very famous ones like Tenpyo and Genroku. Anyway, I went and checked, and it turns out "Tempyo period" does appear once in the GBooks preview of Morton, but that's hardly a justification for saying that the COMMONNAMEs of the modern 元号s always have either "period" or "era". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:45, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nihonjoe—you're misunderstanding WP:COMMONNAME. COMMONNAME isn't about "which name is more common" (in terms of GBooks hits or whatever)—it's not about getting a few percentage points in hits more than another term. It's about using the name that's overwhelmingly most common—such as using Ringo Starr instead of his legal name, Richard Starkey. Both "era" and "period" are "common" for Heisei, Shōwa, etc, but neither is dominant, and COMMONNAME requires dominance to be applicable. It doesn't apply here, so we rely on consensus instead. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:57, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not misunderstanding anything. You're incorrect in your assumptions about what I understand. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:00, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, CT is right: COMMONNAME has never been widely interpreted as being about a few more GBooks hits or inclusion in one or another widely-used book; it is about avoiding obscure names for topics have a more widely recognizable name, and can't possibly be used to justify unnecessary disambiguation by adding "period" to Reiwa to make Reiwa period. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:45, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nihonjoe: let's not talk about "understanding" and "misunderstanding" then. You've brought up WP:COMMONNAME where it doesn't apply, as both forms are "common" and valid. Consistency holds more value in such a situation than scouring GBooks to find out which form has slightly more hits than the other. Exceptions should be exceptional, and you've demonstrated nothing exceptional about "period" that would warrant abandoning an established consistency. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:42, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Curly Turkey and Hijiri88: I don't have the time to waste on this nitpicking. As I said, you don't understand what I'm thinking, and go ahead and do whatever you want. I. Do. Not. Care. Either. Way. Please do not further involve me in this discussion. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:50, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've noticed the same thing, and was thinking of bringing it up. It's especially confusing because WP tends to use "period" in the case of Heian period, Edo period, etc. Usage is mixed outside of Wikipedia, but that's not an argument for mixed usage on Wikipedia. We should consistently use era for gengō and period for non-gengō jidai, for consistency's sake, and since that's the practice already established here; GBooks hits should be irrelevant, unless they show one usage to be absolutely overwhelming. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 08:40, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Curly Turkey: What do you think about removing the disambiguators from the Taishō, Heisei and Reiwa articles, which we've apparently already decided are the primary topics? I think based on NJ's comments above that he wouldn't be opposed to Meiji (era) or Shōwa (era). (I know we generally fav our "natural disambiguation" to parenthetical, but I have my doubts about whether Meiji era is all that natural, and I suspect it would contribute to the misconception that "period"/"era" is an integral part of the name and can't be dropped. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:49, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(era) is already the established disambiguator for other eras (Kanbun (era), Genki (era)). I guess it comes down to whether WP really considers the eras primary, in which case I'd be in favour of dropping the disambiguators. This would be case by case: Meiji is unsurprisingly a DAB page. There's only one Reiwa page, on the other hand. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:56, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A new Newsletter directory has been created to replace the old, out-of-date one. If your WikiProject and its taskforces have newsletters (even inactive ones), or if you know of a missing newsletter (including from sister projects like WikiSpecies), please include it in the directory! The template can be a bit tricky, so if you need help, just post the newsletter on the template's talk page and someone will add it for you.

– Sent on behalf of Headbomb. 03:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello everybody!

As a Wikimedian active in the Hong Kong user group I became involved the ESEAP ("East and Southeast Asia and the Pacific" - at http://w.wiki/Lv ) movement, which seeks to coordinate Wikimedia activities across East Asia, Southeast Asia, and Oceania. I've learned that ESEAP is looking for active Wikimedians from Japan or living in Japan. If you're resident in Japan (whether a Japanese citizen or a foreigner) and interested in helping out, please contact Exec8 on his user page (User talk:Exec8) or on Telegram (user name Exec8).

You are also welcome to see the Wikimedia Asia-Oceania project (http://w.wiki/Lw).

Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 17:27, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Could somebody please take a look at Draft:Yukio Sakaguchi. All the references are in Japanese, so it really needs somebody who's fluent in the language to review it. Thanks. -- RoySmith (talk) 22:35, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have collected a batch of articles with links to DAB pages on Japan-related topics, where expert attention would be welcome. Search for 'disam' in read mode or for '{{d' in edit mode; and if you solve any of these puzzles, remove the {{dn}} tag and post {{done}} here.

• Order of the Paulownia Flowers Done
• Bōsōzoku Done
• Akai-shū Done
• Iga-ryū Done
• Nichiren-shū Done
• Robert Lawrence Balzer Done

Thanks in advance, Narky Blert (talk) 02:10, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have a pile of bookmark folders containing links to DAB page problems relevant to specific WikiProjects, whose responses I have mentally classified as 'Outstanding', 'Not bad', 'I haven't asked them yet', and 'They couldn't care less'.

This was the first time I have raised an issue like this in WP:Japan, and I have reclassified it in the obvious way. Narky Blert (talk) 00:39, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Can anyone here help with Draft: Red Circle Authors? RoySmith has suggested asking if you can review the Japanese language references (Nos. 4, 12, 26) etc, Yahoo Japan, Kyodo, Mainichi Shimbun. The former head of the International Publishers Association (IPA) has written in an industry publication that others should take a look at this publisher (ref 3), for example, and there are many other reviews and references etc making this a notable independent publisher, as Red Circle Authors is being widely cited. The tone still might not be perfect for approval despite several experienced Wiki Editors improving it. Most of the authors involved with Red Circle Authors have Wiki pages and are well known in Japan etc. All help welcome & I think they probably also need a Japanese language entry in Wikipedia. --WikiGeoffrey (talk) 17:04, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]