Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Camp Interlaken

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Looking at the arguments and sources brought forward, some of the "keep" arguments are about the general significance of the type of camp, which unfortunately does not establish notability for this particular one. One keep supporter did offer a more specific assessment, but surfaced only non-independent sources and speculation about the potential for more. So on balance although the "delete" side has only one more supporter, the relevant arguments are more strongly weighted towards deletion. RL0919 (talk) 09:00, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Camp Interlaken

Camp Interlaken (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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This camp does not have any adequate sourcing for its former operation. The only mentions are of directories and biographies of people who attended. Fails WP:BASIC. AmericanAir88^(talk) 22:16, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Hampshire-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 23:28, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 08:21, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Vermont-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 08:21, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is part of a campaign covering at least 5 summer camps currently. Please see:

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Camp Courage
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Camp Deer Run
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Camp Interlaken
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Camp Tel Noar (3rd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Camps Kenwood and Evergreen

--Doncram (talk) 21:20, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete I haven't found any sources that would meet WP:GNG. Jmertel23 (talk) 17:18, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. This is part of a new campaign to delete a bunch of summer camp articles. I have seen previous campaigns, mostly ending in Keep decisions, including one about a bunch of Jewish summer camps (this is not one, but see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jewish summer camps and local organizations); i have seen other campaigns too. I don't get the interest in deleting these. This one is a camp that operated 40 years under the Camp Interlaken name, and operated later as YMCA/YWCA Camp Coniston (currently a redlink). It would be appropriate to expand the article and cover the later usage too, perhaps moving it to the Camp Coniston name. It is okay to tag for more sources and development, but I believe that there will exist coverage about this project, which surely was covered in newspapers when it was operational because of its obvious public benefit/public interest nature, and also the newer usages will have been covered. And once notable, always notable, too. IMHO, summer camps are like public schools and parks and other places/facilities which touch the lives of many persons, often in significant ways, and are written about somewhat at least in guidebook-type literature (which can be very reliable and high in quality), and it serves the public to have these covered in at least a reference way, and IMHO Wikipedia could probably be a comprehensive gazetteer (sp?) about them, like we are for populated places. --Doncram (talk) 21:13, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Fails WP:GNG. Even if judged by WP:GEOFEAT it fails due to no significant coverage or indication of historic, social, economic, or architectural importance----Pontificalibus 06:36, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: Per Doncram. Jewish summer camps are notable - Ret.Prof (talk) 15:39, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. When many people look back at their lives, I think it is fair to say that summer camp experiences (including religious retreats at summer camps), are among the best times of their lives. It is similar in significance to memories to what schools they attended, but to a lesser degree. What they lack in duration, they make up in enjoyment. I think schools, parks, camps, major beaches, amusement parks, major houses of worship belong in Wikipedia. Granted some of these items may not get a significant amount of press given the sensationalism and ambulance chasing of much of the press, but they are still significant places. And Christianity/Judaism/Islam are the big 3 when it comes to world events so a YMCA/Christian camp is notable.Knox490 (talk) 03:00, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Can't see how this is notable enough for an article and the sources do not appear to be forthcoming. Number 57 15:18, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

wp:AFDISNOTFORCLEANUP. --Doncram (talk) 10:12, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Correct, AFD is not for cleanup. It is for determining whether or not there are sources available that show a subject meets Wikipedia's notability guidelines. This particular subject does not appear to have sources that do that. I would, of course, not be against recreation if such sources can be identified in the future, but for now they simply do not appear to exist. Jmertel23 (talk) 12:16, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree about available of sources existing. The original camp closed in 1963 so sources specifically about it will be more likely offline, available from local/regional newspapers and libraries, etc. But this article is reasonably about the original plus follow-ons/purchasers/mergers, such as Camp Coniston, the New Hampshire YMCA Camping Reservation, and/or Camp Soangetaha about which I believe you have not searched. For example, this history page about Camp Coniston, referring to its history running back to 1911. There was a Centennial celebration in 2011, which likely was covered in some newspapers. There is considerable detail for developing the article available in Camp Coniston publications (right, they are not independent of the subject, but definitely can be used). The Spring 2011 edition of the Coniston Chronicle covers a lot of detail in timelines about camp creations and sales and openings of dining halls, purchases of additional land, building of a new chapel, renovation of Old Dining Hall into a center for the arts, etc., and additional more generally newsworthy details:

• The camp received an award in 1981 by which it was "recognized as an International YMCA for its program quality and inclusion"; separate coverage about that may be available somewhere.
• At the 2010 or 2011(?) National Convention of the American Camping Association in San Diego, "YMCA Camp Coniston was named a Pioneer of Camping.... The Pioneer of Camping award recognizes organizations who have served with distinction in the camping movement for 30 or more years."
• In 1996, Coniston opened a program or sub-camp or affiliated camp or something like that, named "Camp Winning Spirit" in "collaboration with Childhood Cancer Lifeline of NH and Ronald McDonald House, ...or families and kids dealing with childhood cancer." I expect that was covered elsewhere.
• In 1999, Coniston hosted "Kearsarge Area Children of Hope, bringing together Protestant and Catholic Youth from Belfast Northern Ireland for a week of “peace and reconciliation” programs."
• There are 1930s postcards of the camp, there was boxing, a circus with elephants came to the camp, and that is from tidbits in the publication.
• A detailed history begins page 16 and runs through page 21. There's a semi-complicated story about author Winston Churchill, a cousin to the prime minister, writing the 1906 novel Coniston which was important in the Progressive movement, and relates to the town and camp and renamings following the novel's usage of names, etc. I am not sure about relating those stories relating to Churchill in the article, but there's other stuff, and I won't summarize more from the history here.

It is reasonable to believe that independent sources exist to verify more facts (I think the "Chronicle" is reliable as far as it goes, is not asserting any facts that look controversial anyhow), and there are already sources available to develop a more substantial article, covering the combo of camps here, and therefore the right thing to do is KEEP. We don't/shouldn't delete only to recreate later; that violates spirit if not letter of our promise to editors that their contributions will be acknowledged (and for other reasons too see truly excellent essay wp:TNTTNT). --Doncram (talk) 02:56, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have just searched online newspaper archives for Camp Coniston and found only passing mentions. For example this is typical of the type of coverage there is - Nashua Telegraph 29 Jan 1972, in an article State YMCA Resident Camps, Camp Coniston merits a single sentence: "At Camp Coniston, a new tractor was purchased; a new flag pole and new stable fence and some new showers and toilets were part of the capital improvements". This type of run-of-the-mill coverage where the subject is mentioned in passing is not the level of in-detail coverage required by WP:GNG. If such local newspapers don't have detailed coverage, there is no reason to believe detailed coverage exists in other newspapers only found in hardcopy in library archives.----Pontificalibus 08:33, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.