Talk:Howl at the Moon

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was proposed in this section that Howl at the Moon Piano Bar be renamed and moved to Howl at the Moon. result: No consensus. Closure requested at WP:CR <permalink>. See no agreement below to move this article to the base name. So it seems the best dispositions are to lowercase the natural qualifier and to have the base name title the dab page. Thanks and kudos to all editors for your input, and Happy, Healthy Editing! (nac by page mover) P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 09:15, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply] Links: current log • target log This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}}

Howl at the Moon Piano Bar → Howl at the Moon – "Piano Bar" is not actually a part of the title Jax 0677 (talk) 23:12, 1 January 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. -- Aervanath (talk) 15:13, 12 January 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 07:23, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom. --Spekkios (talk) 02:17, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Leaning oppose. The phrase is generic, and I have just created Howl at the Moon (disambiguation); I doubt there is a primary topic for the term. BD2412 T 03:53, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose, see WP:ASTONISH. Article is WP:PROD tagged and should probably be deleted. 162 etc. (talk) 16:54, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: I have deprodded the article, as there are sources to be found, but I would not lose sleep if it was merged and redirected to Piano bar. BD2412 T 03:21, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also note: quoting from the guideline WP:Disambiguation in no case do "what comes first to mind" or "what is astonishing" have much bearing, either positive or negative, on which topic, if any, actually is the primary topic. Red Slash 16:46, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Move to Howl at the Moon (nightclub) or similar, or delete: As noted by the nominator, this venue doesn't have "Piano Bar" in its name. It also sounds like it doesn't meet the usual definition of a piano bar, since it hosts performances with a variety of instruments. It also doesn't seem like a proper WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:53, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - If the article is moved to something with a parenthetical disambiguator, the suffix should be two words "(night club)". --Jax 0677 (talk) 14:10, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Why? Please note that Night club is a redirect to nightclub. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:45, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - This is currently the only actual HATM with an article. --Jax 0677 (talk) 19:19, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  But it's a pretty weak article about a topic with borderline notability. Per BD2412, it doesn't seem like a proper primary topic for the term, and per 162, etc., readers might be WP:ASTONISHed to find themselves reading about a chain of piano bars when looking for a song title or the capitalized form of a generic phrase. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:03, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I was on my way to respond that the primary topic is probably some iteration of "Howling", but I am stunned to discover that Wikipedia has no article on the topic. Howl is on a poem (a famous one, but still not the topic), and Howling is a disambiguation page with links to article sections on four different kinds of canine howling (wolf, coyote, dog, fox). I think we need an article on howling as a concept, and that if the title under discussion doesn't redirect there, then it should be a disambiguation page. BD2412 T 20:41, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I have thrown together Draft:Howling and requested to move Talk:Howling, to make it primary. BD2412 T 21:26, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  You are humble. That draft looks awesome. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:06, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  80% of it is content copied from other relevant articles. I'll take credit for filling in the divots and putting a nice coat of paint on it. BD2412 T 06:59, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support as proposed. It's almost inconceivable to think that people are typing in the precise title "Howl at the Moon" and thinking they'll land anywhere else. There is no other encyclopedic topic with this name, and if they're looking for howling, they'll search for... howling. WP:CONCISE demands the move, especially since the current title is not even the name of the chain. The fact that the disambiguation page had to be created just now speaks to the fact that... there's really nothing to disambiguate.

I would also like to point out that moving to titles like Howl at the Moon (nightclub chain) is completely contrary to policy and practice; again, since Howl at the Moon already links directly here, putting a parenthetical on this title is directly contrary to Wikipedia policy. In addition, WP:ASTONISH says literally nothing about article titles, and in fact directly links to something that the editors here would do well to remember: article titles and primary topic are not determined by what first comes to mind. Dear editor, did you just now learn that there's a chain of fifteen restaurants throughout the United States called "Howl at the Moon"? Congratulations! The point of an encyclopedia is to learn things! But we don't title pages based on what you personally happened to already be aware of. Red Slash 18:49, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong support No need for disambiguation, the base name already redirects here. Is the phrase generic? Yeah sure, but we don't need to worry about that unless there are other pages at the name we need to be considering. For those who happen to user the very weird phrasing "Howl at the Moon" expecting to end up at the page for wolf behavior (although bear in mind it's a myth that the moon is involved in their howling!), the hatnote resolves any issue.--Yaksar (let's chat) 21:49, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "Howl at the Moon" is not weird phrasing. It is a very common expression. Remember also that on Wikipedia we capitalize "Moon" in such a phrase, creating an exact match. There are also two albums and two songs discussed on Wikipedia that use this exact title, which is not only evidence that it is not a rare phrasing, but also that there are other topics that match it. The fact that the base name redirects here means nothing, as that can be easily corrected by a simple edit (and that's part of what we're here to discuss, isn't it?). The degree of apparent notability of this nightclub chain seems low. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:40, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's incorrect, we would not capitalize it if there was a page for the phrase. And if we had the misconceived behavior, it would be Howling at the moon.--Yaksar (let's chat) 01:28, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but you're wrong about that. Please see the Moon article. The word is consistently capitalized there. Also see the articles List of missions to the Moon, Far side of the Moon, Orbit of the Moon, Colonization of the Moon, Exploration of the Moon, etc. (note the capital letter). We capitalize Earth and Moon and Sun consistently when referring to the objects in our solar system. See also MOS:CAPS – specifically, see MOS:CELESTIALBODIES for further details. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:27, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would also guess that there are 2-3 other "Howl at the Moon" topics currently on the disambiguation page for which an article could plausibly be written. BD2412 T 02:37, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Have you seen the thing? You don't think people would have thought to give it a proper name? Randy Kryn (talk) 12:29, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm wrong on the capitalization, but it still would be at Howling, not Howl.--Yaksar (let's chat) 19:20, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:DAB, we disambiguate topics, not just exact title matches. What matters is not what the name of an article is (e.g., "Tropical cyclone" or "Howling" or "Howl at the Moon" or "Howl at the Moon (nightclub)"), but what people might be looking for when they type something or create a link to it, e.g., "Hurricane" or "Howl at the Moon" – would they be looking for Howling or a piano bar or possibly something else? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 12:41, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per above, and either direct "Howl at the Moon" to the dis. page or to Howling. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:29, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose – the "natural" disambiguation would be Howl at the Moon piano bar, if it's known as a piano bar; but Howl at the Moon (piano bar) would also be OK; or (nightclub) as BP suggests. Certainly not primarytopic if barely notable. Dicklyon (talk) 17:09, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per nom. Showiecz (talk) 15:24, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved  — Amakuru (talk) 18:29, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Howl at the Moon (piano bar) → Howl at the Moon
• Howl at the Moon → Howl at the Moon (disambiguation)

– Ready for main space Jax 0677 (talk) 20:25, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note 1:This is a contested technical request (permalink). UtherSRG (talk) 23:53, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note 2: WikiProject Food and drink and WikiProject Companies have been notified of this discussion. UtherSRG (talk) 00:14, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - IMHO, the piano bar is the primary topic, but I am open to hearing about any other articles that might be able to compete... --Jax 0677 (talk) 22:24, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Leaning support. In the previous discussion, I was opposed to the move on the theory that the phrase by itself was primary over anything named for it. However, we don't have an article on the phrase, and I don't think any of the albums or songs with the name are of any particular importance. BD2412 T 23:34, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Added the dab page move. UtherSRG (talk) 01:55, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose the fact that we haven't bothered to make an article for the phrase doesn't change the fact that this (piano bar franchise) isn't a clear PT over all other uses combined. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:01, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Reply - Howl at the Moon (piano bar) has more views in the past few days than "Howlin' at the Moon". If another "Howl at the Moon" is notable, then please create an article for it, and we'll discuss at that time. Until then, that is the only article actually named "Howl at the Moon", and the piano bar is the use that I hear the most for that term. --Jax 0677 (talk) 10:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reality exists independently of us making articles. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:33, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong support - obviously, this article is an actual encyclopedic topic, and the only one of note. Supporting is obvious; there are no other contenders at all. In ictu oculi makes a handwave at "all other uses" without mentioning a single encyclopedia-worthy topic that readers could be looking for when they type in "Howl at the Moon". Red Slash 23:27, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. "piano bar" = unnecessary disambiguation. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 00:27, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]