Talk:Hatoon al-Fassi

A fact from Hatoon al-Fassi appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 10 June 2011 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that King Saud University assistant professor of women's history Hatoon al-Fassi has not been allowed to teach since 2001? A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2011/June.

This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Biography: Science and Academia This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles This article is supported by the science and academia work group. An editor has requested that an image or photograph be added to this article. Human rights This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights articles ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. Women This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of women on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WomenWikipedia:WikiProject WomenTemplate:WikiProject WomenWikiProject Women articles Saudi Arabia This article is within the scope of WikiProject Saudi Arabia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Saudi Arabia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Saudi ArabiaWikipedia:WikiProject Saudi ArabiaTemplate:WikiProject Saudi ArabiaSaudi Arabia articles ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

It's interesting to see this family background. Great also to see the references! i've added more bibliographic information for the (same) references, including archiving, and i've rewritten the section based on the references and the following thoughts.

1. This article is mainly about Hatoon al-Fassi, who has (unless she's an exceptional case) 2 + 4 + 8 + 16 = 30 parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, and great-great-grandparents. We are not going to list all 30 up-to-4th level ascendants of someone in a Wikipedia article. Even if those 30 ascendants are in themselves notable people, it would surely be enough to list the first generation (mother + father) and then link to the general family article for people especially interested. (Check the Barack Obama article and i would be surprised if all 30 of his up-to-4th level ascendants are listed there...)
2. It seems that Imam al-Fassi (Hatoon's great-great-grandfather) is considered quite notable, since he's a major part of the Fassi article. The Prophet Muhammad is obviously notable. So it's justified to mention both of these ascendants in addition to Hatoon's parents.
3. Neither Hatoon's father, grandfather nor great-grandfather have survived notability debates for individual en.wikipedia articles (maybe their articles were proposed and deleted, or maybe never created - i don't know). Mentioning both Hatoon's parents would seem to be consistent with the pattern for wikipedia biography articles in general, but including one of her two grandfathers and one of her four great-grandfathers seems a bit excessive.
4. "touches Muhammad" is vague; it is not encyclopedic text. There seems to be a claim of direct descendance, so let's state that that is the claim and give the refs.
5. i've done a bit of work on Bait Al Fassi and Fassi - so Hatoon's 4-th level descendance from Imam Fassi is obvious in the family tree there. This makes it even less necessary to include all the intermediate male descendants along the line.
6. i've inline-cited Hatoon's sister Hawazan from one of the sources you added, but i cannot see where Hatoon's mother with one of the same names is in any of the three sources. It would be good to get a ref for Hatoon's mother, because it would make this section a bit more balanced.

i hope this explains my edits. Boud (talk) 20:39, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I know the family personally. I couldn't find any source for Her mother's name. Will provide you with the Genealogy from Prophet Muhammad to Imam Fassi shortly. Wasifwasif (talk) 06:48, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cool! Maybe you might know if Hatoon al-Fassi wishes someone to publish a photo of her under a free licence - the simplest thing would be if you take the photo, so you have the copyright and can publish a copy under a free licence. Checking that she wants the photo published is only a question of being nice - legally speaking (my guess only, i'm not a lawyer...), if someone takes a photo of a public person (e.g. university professor), then s/he (the photographer) can publish that on the Wikimedia Commons even if the person doesn't wish it. Please read through commons:Special:UploadWizard for help in first time uploading of an image. Afterwards, you can use e.g. [[File:Name_of_file.jpg]] in the en.wikipedia.org article if Name_of_file.jpg is the name of the file that you uploaded. Using a photo made by someone else is also possible, but read the guidelines for all the steps to take and information to provide.

My feeling is that the full genealogy from Prophet Muhammad to Imam Fassi might make sense in the Fassi article or maybe Bait al-Fassi, though not here. We have a reference (first-party - authored by Hatoon al-Fassi) that IMHO should be enough for this article - there is no sign that any source disputes the genealogy from Hatoon al-Fassi to Imam al-Fassi, so the question of whether or not Imam al-Fassi was a direct descendant of Muhammad makes more sense to sort out in that article. If it becomes disputed over there, then here we could make the wording here more WP:NPOV ("According to...", "claims that..."), but IMHO it's not needed, at least for the moment. Boud (talk) 07:54, 3 June 2011 (UTC) (minor correction Boud (talk) 09:01, 3 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Actually, at least the Wikimedia Commons recommendations for photos of living people are that the photo should not show the person in a negative way, unless there is well-sourced information in the article of that person seen in a negative situation, and even in that case, there is probably a preference for avoiding photos which show the person in a negative way. Probably if you start on WP:BLP and follow the links, you could find more info on the topic. But having approval from the person photographed probably would decrease the chance that that person - or others - feel that the photo shows the person in a negative way. Boud (talk) 09:07, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In the present situation, we have a 45-year uncertainty in the birthdate of Hatoon al-Fassi's great-great-grandfather who takes on a very significant role in the Family background paragraph - see Fassi and Talk:Fassi for details and discussion, and we do not seem to have any really third-party sources about the family in general - one of the two Sri Lankan Daily News articles was written by... Hatoon al-Fassi, and the other was written on exactly the same date. IMHO these issues need to be improved on in the Fassi article and not expanded here. This is an article about Hatoon al-Fassi, not about five generations of the al-Fassi family. Boud (talk) 21:17, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There were a few recent 12:42, 26 March 2012 (UTC) edits related to Talk:Muhammad/FAQ.

A quote from the above list of frequently asked questions (FAQ) is:

Question 4: Why is Muhammad's name not followed by (pbuh) or (saw) in the article?

Answer 4:

It is recommended to remove all honorifics, such as The Prophet, (The) Holy Prophet, (pbuh), or (saw), that precede or follow Muhammad's name. This is because many editors consider such honorifics as promoting an Islamic point of view instead of a neutral point of view which Wikipedia is required to maintain. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) also recommends against the use of titles or honorifics, such as Prophet, unless it is the simplest and most neutral way to deal with disambiguation. When disambiguation is necessary, the recommended form is the Islamic prophet Muhammad.

Please click on Talk:Muhammad/FAQ and follow the links to understand the discussions and reasoning behind this. If you wish to change this manual of style recommendation, then please discuss this at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles. Wikipedia guidelines are not set in stone - they are the result of reasoned and informed (and sometimes not so informed or reasoned!) discussion, and can change when someone presents new information or better reasoning. Boud (talk) 12:42, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've done a restructure, dividing al-Fassi's academic career from her activist career. While we can easily imagine or find sourced claims of relations between the two, we do need some way of making the page more structured, and in principle, academic research and teaching of women's history are distinct from direct activism related to present-day women's rights issues. Making a claim about what women's rights were in ancient Nabataea is distinct from saying what women's rights should be today. Boud (talk) 19:49, 28 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

media contacts

I've transferred this list of media contacts here, since it doesn't make much sense directly in the article itself:

She was interviewed by local, Arab and International media, TV, Newspapers, News Agencies, Radio and Documentaries. Television channels like CNN, BBC, FR2, FR3, Canal+, M6, VPRO (Dutch), CBC, CNN Turk, CBS, PBS, ERT (Greek), WITW, Safwa, Youm, al-Ekhbaria, MBC, al-Arabia, Saudi 1st Ch, 2nd Ch, AlJazeera Arabic, AlJazeera International, Rotana Khalijiyah, AlWatan (Kuwait), al-Thaqafia (Saudi) have interviewed and broadcasted her opinions in various occasions.

Print media news papers like New York Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, Christian Science Monitor, Le Monde, Le Monde Diplomatique, Liberation, Le Figaro, Le Point, The Guardian, Financial Times, Der Spiegel, Ashahi Shimbun of Japan, il manifesto, el Periodico, Corriere della Sera, Afternposten (Norwegian), Time, Vogue, Arabian Business, The National, The Star (Malaysia), al-Ahram International, Asharqalawsat, al-Hayat, Okaz, al-Riyadh, al-Watan, Laha, Sayidati, Kul an-Naas, Ru’aa have published her opinions.

Also News Agencies like Reuters, AF, AP, RTL and Radios like Radio de France, France Inter, npr, BBC World Service, BBC Arabic, CNN National and International, Irish Radio, Canadian National Radio, Monte Carlo, Sawt al Arab from Cairo, MBC FM, Panorama, Saudi Radio Arabic-English-French, Riyadh and Jeddah, have aired her opinions in subjects concerning the Saudi women, history, archaeology, municipal elections and other major issues.

If it is true that al-Fassi has had all these media contacts, then most of the recent, online media should be usable as sources for the main content of this article.

It seems to me that the fact (presuming it's true) that al-Fassi has had all these media contacts is not really interesting in itself. (In fact, it could even be considered as somewhat derogatory, because it could seem to say that all she does is to contact the media, and that what she actually says to the media is less important than the fact that she is in contact with them.)

In my humble opinion, it would be more encyclopedic to use some of al-Fassi's interviews (with online text records) to give more material for her academic and/or activist career - which is more complimentary than the fact that she managed to be interviewed. Boud (talk) 19:49, 28 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes that seems to be a good idea. but bringing in all the contents of the interviews will not make this article encylopedic. This contents in a better form will give the familiarity which Sheikha hatoon al Fassi has got. Wasif (talk) 09:52, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

[1] you refer to an "unexplained removal" - probably you didn't look at this talk page until after you edited... since the explanation is above, in this section of the talk page!

You also say in your edit summary, this was shared by Sheikha Al fassi Herself. retaining the "cn" untill i get reference from Her. There are some recommendations about someone being involved in the Wikipedia page about him/herself - see the links at the top of this talk page. Just because someone sends what is more or less his/her cv does not mean that that cv should be copy/pasted as encyclopedic content. Better that the info from he person concerned first goes to the talk page, where people can use that info in ways that can be integrated into the article. For the moment i've just added importance-section tags, but other editors may decide to compress/remove them without waiting (this is a prediction, not a recommendation one way or the other). Boud (talk) 14:33, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

examples of media contacts

TODO: Here's a Guardian article with several interesting pieces of info that could be used at several points in the article - it seems to be from 2005, although The Guardian doesn't seem to think that writing dates inside the html content of articles is useful: http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianweekly/story/0,,1416731,00.html Boud (talk) 20:14, 28 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]