Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2020 May 28

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May 28

File:Schumann, Horst.jpg

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The result of the discussion was: Use as non-free with {{Non-free biog-pic}} in Horst Schumann; remove from List of major perpetrators of the Holocaust. (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 14:48, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence that {{PD-EU-no author disclosure}} applies. — JJMC89 (T·C) 00:08, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Convert to non-free—there do not appear to be free images of the subject. b uidhe 08:12, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Use as non-free with {{Non-free biog-pic}} in Horst Schumann per Buidhe; remove from List of major perpetrators of the Holocaust. Wikiacc (¶) 02:32, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Bruno Streckenbach.jpg

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The result of the discussion was: Use as non-free with {{Non-free biog-pic}} in Bruno Streckenbach; remove from List of major perpetrators of the Holocaust. (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 14:41, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence that {{PD-EU-no author disclosure}} applies. — JJMC89 (T·C) 00:08, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Convert to non-free—there do not appear to be free images of the subject. b uidhe 08:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Use as non-free with {{Non-free biog-pic}} in Bruno Streckenbach per Buidhe; remove from List of major perpetrators of the Holocaust. Wikiacc (¶) 02:32, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Non-free media in List of major perpetrators of the Holocaust

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The result of the discussion was: Remove all from List of major perpetrators of the Holocaust and Treblinka extermination camp. (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 19:20, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

File:Alois Brunner.JPG (delete | talk | history | links | logs)

File:Lange, Herbert (1).jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs)

File:Stangl, Franz.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs)

File:Kurt Hubert Franz.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs)

File:Maxkoegel.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs)

File:Friedrich Entress.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs)

File:Josef Klehr.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs)

File:Frenzel, Karl August.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs)

File:Krüger, Friedrich-Wilhelm.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs)

File:Lange-a.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs)

File:Karl Jaeger (Nazi official).jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs)

File:SS Captain Hermann Schaper.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs)

File:Erich Ehrlinger.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs)

File:Martin Weiss.gif (delete | talk | history | links | logs)

File:Roschmann eduard 147.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs)

File:Franz Josef Huber.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs)

File:Kurt Lischka.jpg (delete | talk | history | links | logs)

Remove from List of major perpetrators of the Holocaust and Treblinka extermination camp per WP:NFCC#8. The images are not used to identify the subject of the articles and are not the subject of critical commentary in the articles. — JJMC89 (T·C) 00:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The list article is of major perpetrators of the Holocaust, and the use of the images is to identify those people. This is a legitimate use under NFCC. NFCC#8 does not in any way say that images can only be used to identify the subject of articles. It says:

Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding.

Clearly being able to identify these people visually in this list is just as much a "significant increase of reader's understanding" of the people on the list as using an image in the infobox is for an article on the subject. Many of the images nominated also have no free equivalents.

Frankly, I do not understand in what way removing these images could possibly improve Wikipedia or service our readers. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Remove from the list article those files which are also being used for primary identification purposes in stand-alone biography articles. There seems to have been a pretty well established agreement over the years in various WP:NFCR and WP:FFD as well as in WT:NFCC discussions that using images in list articles like this simply to identify an individual entry is not really considered OK per WP:NFCCP, with the most common reason cited being WP:NFLISTS, but also WP:NFCC#1, WP:NFCC#3, WP:NFCC#8 and even item 6 of WP:NFC#UUI also being referenced. There are lots of "List of ...." articles covering various subjects (e.g. alumni, presidents, award winners), in which the only images available for some individual entries might be a non-free images, whereas the other entries might have free images available. In such cases, a link to the main article about the entry seems to be more than a sufficient way for the reader to visually identify a particular entry. The fact that there are no free-equivalent images available for some individual entries doesn't really justify this type of use as long as its considered reasonable for a free alternative (including text or a link) to serve essentially the same purpose. There are list articles where no images are being used at all, which could possibly have non-free images used in them if that was the general consensus on this type of non-free use; it's not, however, which is why you'll find lots of list articles without any images or only free images being used. It looks like the files were being removed from the list article by a bot per WP:NFCC#10c for not having a non-free use rationale; they were subsequently re-added after rationales for the list article were added to the files' respective pages; while I appreciate the effort made to add the rationales (that's more than some people do), simply adding a rationale doesn't automatically make a non-free use compliant per WP:JUSTONE
Out of the 17 files listed above, three (File:Stangl, Franz.jpg, File:Kurt Hubert Franz.jpg and File:Erich Ehrlinger.jpg) are being used in another article besides the list article and their stand-alone biographies, and these other uses should probably also be discussed because they seem questionable NFCCP-wise as well. -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Diffs, please. Please point me to the wp:consensus discussion in which use of images like this is list articles is not considered OK per NFCC. A widely advertised discussion with many participants, please. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:09, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is really hard to point to any single discussion but the issue of non-frees in lists was a matter that started around 2006 at WT:NFC and then had to be rethought over multiple discussions afterwards after the Foundation issued the non-free resolution in March 2007. I would suspect that the foundations of this began here here (this was when Betacommand was going around in 2008 to bring things into compliance with the Resolution) and which started multiple discussions that I see going through the next dozen-some archives at the WT:NFC pages. But to put it shorts NFLISTS has been there since at least 2008 and in wake of WP's revision of non-free content policy to meet the Foundation when lots of people were upset over this, so while there's no one formal RFC or discussion I can point you to, you can be certain this had had plenty of review in that time period. --Masem (t) 13:54, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Remove per previous consensus; on the list articles they are not providing sufficient contextual support to pass NFCC#8. b uidhe 08:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Remove Under the context of NFCC and NFLISTS, all these images are to most readers in the context of this list are a bunch of Nazi figureheads; most readers are not going to be able to identify these people by how they look but instead, at best, by name or by role in the Holocaust. The list gives no significant other context about the biography of these people, so the need for a non-free image for any individual fails NFCC#8 in general, and NFLISTS overall (we don't need to illustrate every row of a list with non-free even if most other rows are free). NFCC#3 implores minimal uses so that while the non-free can be used on the bio page of that person, it shouldn't be replicated on this table. --Masem (t) 13:38, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- To add, NFCC#8 is a two-pronged test; I can certainly agree that their addition helps, but their omission does not harm my understanding of the list because of how limited the details the list covers about them, so that's why NFCC#8 is not met for them. --Masem (t) 13:59, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Secret Journey - The Police (Back Cover).jpg

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The result of the discussion was: Delete; deleted by Fastily (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 02:01, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No attempt at a proper NFUR, fails WP:NFCC#8 with no educational value or critical commentary at all. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 10:17, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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File:The Bed's Too Big Without You - The Police (Picture disc).jpg

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The result of the discussion was: Delete; deleted by Fastily (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 02:01, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No attempt at NFUR, fails WP:NFCC#8 with no educational value or critical commentary and purely decorative use. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 10:20, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Strange Tales 28.jpg

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The result of the discussion was: no consensus. This has been open for four months, and multiple relists are not generating clear consensus or more participation. Perhaps individual nominations would be different. (non-admin closure) 2pou (talk) 18:21, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Four comic covers used in Strange Tales in violation of WP:NFCC#3. Per WP:NFC#CS, "To identify a subject of discussion, depiction of a prominent aspect of the subject generally suffices, thus only a single item of non-free content meets the criterion." None of the covers are used as the main image, but one must be selected for said use and the other three deleted to satisfy policy. Ə XPLICIT 01:44, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also, File:Strange135.jpg is additionally being used in Nick Fury and S.H.I.E.L.D., and should be removed from those articles in accordance with WP:NFC#UUI#6, as it is being used in the main article Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. (feature). Ə XPLICIT 01:55, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the case of a comic-book that has run since 1951 and gone through significant changes, the particular four covers here are necessary in order to give a reasonably comprehensive understanding of the changes this title experienced over decades of publication. Indeed, four is a minimal representation, as explained below.

First: These four cover illustrate the comic's origins as a 1950s "pre-Code" horror title; later in the decade, as one of early Marvel's signature Jack-Kirby-giant-monster books; later, in the following decade as the title that introduced the cornerstone character Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD, which in addition to other significance is the single continuing thread throughout the Marvel Studios movies; and two decades later, as a superhero title.

A variety of other covers could replace that last image, since the series introduced or popularized feature characters including Brother Voodoo and Warlock, among others. But a cover to illustrate that this horror / science-fiction / espionage series became a superhero title seems needed and justifiable under fair use. Comic books are a primarily visual medium, and the visual difference between a horror title, a science-fiction title, an espionage title and a superhero title are stark and significant. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:21, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:10, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep File:Strange135.jpg in Strange Tales, remove from the other two articles and remove all other files mentioned in the nomination.

File:Strange135.jpg in Strange Tales is the only instance where one of these covers is subject to sourced critical commentary: "Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D." became the first Strange Tales feature to receive its own cover logo below the main title, beginning with #135. This directly comments on what the cover looks like, and would not be possible to imagine without actually seeing it. If the points made by Tenebrae truly were important, they would be explicitly made in the articles in question. That is also the requirement of the non-free content policy. Something like "according to scholar X, the visual differences between covers Y and Z testify to the changing visual style of the decades". – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:44, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: It's already the end of May and this is still here?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CrazyBoy 826 18:27, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.