Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ukraine genocide (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Consensus is clear. This does not preclude someone from creating a DAB under this title Star Mississippi 01:52, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ukraine genocide

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I can't find any scholarly sources or reliable news sources that frame the Holodomor and the abusive actions against civilians in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine as a concrete and coherent joint topic. I find plenty of sources that frame the actions against Ukrainian civilians in Bucha within the context of War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, while I also find plenty of sources about the Holodomor genocide question itself. But I can't find any reliable sources that frame both together within the same narrative of genocide in their own voice.

As such, this article looks like WP:OR/WP:SYNTH that combines the Holodomor with the Bucha massacre in order to create a topic that sources don't exactly describe together. The page should either be redirected to Holodomor, which is the long-standing target of the Ukrainian genocide redirect, or deleted. — Mhawk10 (talk) 15:05, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Russia and Ukraine. — Mhawk10 (talk) 15:05, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As a friendly note, the previous deletion nomination occurred when the page was a dab page, which this page clearly is not at this point. — Mhawk10 (talk) 15:09, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as WP:OR/WP:SYNTH per nom.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 15:26, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Crime, Discrimination, Ethnic groups, History, Law, Military, Politics, and Terrorism. — Mhawk10 (talk) 15:33, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If kept Rename to Genocide in Ukraine. The present title might mean genocide by Ukraine. Ideally reduce to a dabpage for Holodomor and Russian war crimes in Ukraine in 2022. Though several leaders have used the term genocide, it is not clear that the currently unfolding events constitute a genocide, as opposed to the commission of serious war crimes against civilians. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:08, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Holodomor - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:31, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Holodomor genocide question and Claims of genocide of Ukrainians in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine are enough. Super Ψ Dro 21:03, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per above. If it were to be redirected, Holodomor or War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine would seem plausible. LunaEatsTuna (talk) 21:43, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as OR and SYNTH, as mentioned above. Either that, or create a disambiguation page or list article redirecting users to the Holodomor, Bucha massacre or Claims of genocide of Ukrainians in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine articles. —QueenofBithynia (talk) 23:10, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think a stub that points to both articles would be sufficiently neutral, 'ie Ukraine genocide may refer to...' type fork. BLKFTR (tlk2meh) 14:01, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So, you prefer that we delete the page's content and replace it with a disambiguation page? — Mhawk10 (talk) 15:08, 21 April 2022‎ (UTC)[reply]

Strong delete The article is a poorly written case of obious OR and SYNTH; statements by politicians are not equal to scholarly consensus. If we were to treat the private opinions of politicians as equal to peer-reviewed research done by scholars, then we would likely end up with an article called "Russia genocide" sourced primarily to statements by Vladimir Putin. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 16:53, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Agree that this article is clear synthesis, and any contents with merit are duplicated by the two appropriate articles. Ovinus (talk) 17:22, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete A blatantly synthetic topic with no value as a redirect, considering Ukrainian Genocide already redirects to Holodomor BSMRD (talk) 18:01, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I think that whatever happens to this article (delete, redirect, disambiguation page), the same should go for the Ukrainian genocide and Ukrainian Genocide redirects too. It would be weird to totally delete the Ukraine genocide article (for example) but keep the aforementioned redirects. -- QueenofBithynia (talk) 20:08, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. The original proposal is (as stated literally) inconsistent. Either all three should become a redirect, or all three become a disambiguation page, or all three be deleted. Boud (talk) 21:10, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per above and redirect to Holodomor as the WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:14, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to List of massacres in Ukraine. An extra column !Claims of Genocide can be added there to list WP:RS references with "genocide"[1][2] and "not a genocide"[3][4] for those massacres in Ukraine that some scholars (or other notable sources) qualify (or dispute) as genocide, possibly with very brief prose in the new column. So far we don't seem to have any cases where scholars have broad consensus on genocidal intent, but I suspect that there are more cases than Holodomor and the current Russian invasion for which some notable scholars assert genocidal intent. Boud (talk) 20:13, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom, the article lacks reliable news sources and abusive actions against civilians. DMySon (talk) 05:00, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I don't see the point in existing of this article that describes the Holodomor and the current genocide when there are separate articles for both of these events, which, by the way, are much more informative than this article. Danilmay (talk) 15:00, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I can kind of understand if it was just related to the current atrocities (although the war crimes article covers it pretty well) but why must the Holodomor be mentioned? Plus the article itself doesn’t go into any details about the atrocities of either. Plus it’s probably too soon to start an article on this at the moment. It was a while before we had the Uyghur genocide article as despite it starting in 2014, there wasn’t an article on it until late 2019. Hell even Guatemala and Darfur were mostly covered by their war articles until much later. Regardless of whether the actions of the Russians are a genocide or not, there simply isn’t enough information to warrant the article in the first place. The Ninja5 Empire (Talk) 10:05, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Here , for example, is an article published today linking Moscow’s 1930 use of genocidal language against Ukrainians to its use in 2022: Anne Applebaum, “Ukraine and the Words that Lead to Mass Murder.” —Michael Z. 17:37, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- A single labeled opinion piece in The Atlantic plainly does not make this article pass the general notability guideline, which requires multiple independent RS that cover the article subject (I.e. the union of the Holodomor and 2022 war crimes) significantly. We have zero. — Mhawk10 (talk) 20:28, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.