Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Race-reversed casting (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. AfD is not for proposing mergers, and at any rate that proposal has no consensus here. Sandstein 19:23, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Race-reversed casting

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The topic is reasonably notable, but only as a sub-heading in Color-blind casting. I am proposing this AfD to suggest a merge and redirect from Race-reversed casting to Color-blind casting. The novel use of "photo negative" casting is notable only in one or two specific cases, such as the production of Othello masterminded by Sir Patrick Stewart. Therefore, I think it makes more sense to discuss these particular cases as specific instances of color-blind casting on that article page rather than to contrive an article based on an esoteric form of casting that does not have independent notability separate from the one or two cases. AlexEng^(TALK) 19:02, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Arts-related deletion discussions. AlexEng^(TALK) 19:02, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. AlexEng^(TALK) 19:02, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. AlexEng^(TALK) 19:02, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Theatre-related deletion discussions. AlexEng^(TALK) 19:02, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Discrimination-related deletion discussions. AlexEng^(TALK) 19:02, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. AlexEng^(TALK) 19:02, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep As there are sufficient 3rd party sources to affirm notability under WP:GNG. Furthermore, as was agreed on the talk page back when there was all that bruhaha, Colour-blind casting is a similar but different form of casting. Colour-blind is where race is irrelevant, "Photo negative" is when the race of characters are deliberately reversed. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 19:33, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Procedural keep if you want this merged this should be a merge request and not at AfD. You can try a merge proposal following the steps at WP:MERGEPROP. (However there was a recent merge proposal that seemed to result in no merge). snood1205 19:38, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep AfD isn't the right venue to propose a merge, the article cites sources which seem to discuss the subject beyond the Patrick Stewart production, and I don't think it's fair to describe the subject as a subtopic of Color-blind casting (because it isn't colour blind). Hut 8.5 20:25, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Almost every merge I've ever seen has come out of an AfD. This seems like a good place to start. I doubt a merger proposal will get any attention on a low-traffic page like that, but I'll give it a shot if there's no consensus for that procedural reason. @The C of E: you're mistaken regarding the scope of Color-blind casting, which also covers non-traditional casting and is therefore the right place to write about recondite casting decisions such as this one. Let's talk about GNG, though, by running through the sources. You've framed the article as a notable casting technique, but the sources don't support that. The sources support the notability of Patrick Stewart's race-reversed production of Othello. I'm going to be listing them in the order they appear as of this revision.
1. This source is entirely about the casting of Stewart's Othello.
2. Again, this is about Stewart's casting of Othello.
3. Othello again.
4. Othello.
5. Othello.
6. Othello.
7. Our first and only non-Othello source. It's some random .edu releasing a blog post (press release?) about a non-notable director casting a non-notable all African American production of Death of a Salesman. The source article doesn't even mention race-reversed casting or photo negative casting. Probably because it's an all African American cast rather than a "reversed" cast of black and white actors.
8. And we're back to Othello coverage.
9. The Guardian on Stewart's Othello.
10. I don't know what this is... some kind of textbook? No quotation to go off of, and it's used to source some vague prose about it being praised.
11. Othello again, and it's a trivial mention at that.

So where's the WP:SIGCOV required for GNG? You can argue sigcov for Stewart's casting in Othello. You can't argue sigcov for "race-reversed casting," because it's not independently notable outside of that production. That turns it into a weird single-purpose WP:COATRACK or an example of WP:NOTNEWS. @Snood1205 and Hut 8.5: would you please reconsider your votes with that in mind? Thanks for your time! AlexEng^(TALK) 11:48, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid you are mistaken because the Colour-blind article clearly describes it as "blind casting". This is not "blind casting", this is deliberately and intentionally casting characters in reverse race roles. The term "race reversed" casting was used as the title of the article as an WP:NDESC title opposed to "Photo negative casting" as it was originally. This isn't a COATRACK (which is an essay not a policy anyway) as it isn't trying to obscure anything or go off on a tangent. Also, NOTNEWS doesn't apply here either as this isn't OR, a news report, a who's who or gossip. It is only about a theatrical concept that may have been utilised rarely but is one that exists. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 11:58, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're missing several points here. Color-blind casting discusses variants of non-traditional casting and can easily be expanded to cover this more or less unique casting decision for Stewart's Othello within the context of "race-reversed" casting. The concept of "photo negative" or "race reversed" casting is also so needlessly restrictive that it's going to be esoteric by its very nature; it implies a racial binary. Who are you going to cast for a traditionally Asian, Latina, or Navajo character in "photo negative" casting? What's the opposite of Asian? Race-reversed casting is a coatrack, because it digresses from the arguably notable casting choice for Stewart's Othello and focuses on the practice as a whole, which is not notable independent of Stewart's Othello. As an analogy, consider if I created an article about the World Trade Center cross, but I named it Formation of steel beam crosses in building collapse. Yeah, it happened in a notable way, but framing the article as a discussion of the creation of crosses made of steel beams as a result of building collapse is creating a coatrack. Lastly, WP:ITEXISTS is not a solid argument, and WP:NOTNEWS says most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion, which is an argument against WP:SIGCOV, which is explicitly why that policy exists. See WP:WHYN. AlexEng^(TALK) 12:51, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For a start the argument you're making isn't based on the GNG. The GNG just says that the article subject needs to have significant coverage in third-party reliable sources. This subject clearly does. It doesn't say anything about only having notability in the context of X. Nor do I see how you can apply the likes of NOTNEWS, because this concept was still getting substantial coverage over a decade after Stewart's production of Othello. Combined with the fact that the concept has been applied to other productions (which the article discusses, with sources), I think it's suitable for a standalone article. I wouldn't object to it being merged into an article about non-traditional casting, but we don't have an article about non-traditional casting. We only have an article about colour-blind casting, and it's definitely not in scope for that as it involves casting people by race. Hut 8.5 12:56, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, GNG demands significant coverage of the actual topic. The topic that is being covered significantly in the above sources is not race-reversed casting. It's the race-reversed casting of Stewart's Othello. I could likewise not claim notability on Deaths caused by stingrays because one event received significant coverage: Death of Steve Irwin. Do you understand where I'm coming from? What other notable, reliably sourced productions are there in the article? If the answer is "none", then will you change your mind? AlexEng^(TALK) 13:18, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree with that interpretation: coverage of race-reversed casting in the context of the Stewart production is coverage of race-reversed casting. The sources aren't solely concerned with the details of Stewart's production but with the general concept/idea of race-reversed casting. And as I've said the article discusses examples of race-reversed casting other than Stewart's. Hut 8.5 17:56, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Maineartists and Hog Farm: I'm going to go ahead and courtesy ping the two remaining active participants from the last AfD, as SchroCat is retired. AlexEng^(TALK) 12:56, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to color-blind casting. While there are clearly different ways to approach this, and technically "color blind" implies at first glance that race is not considered in casting, while we also have cases of deliberately changing some or all of the race roles involved. The thing is in this case "color-blind casting" is a catch-all term for a variety of casting techniques that are basically anything other than trying to cast based on the phenotype of historical characters or the perceived and understood phenotype of fictional characters. I also have to admit that I dislike this term because at some level if assumes a binary of race, which is not workable in any context, and clearly not in a global context when you have countries like China which has 56 designated ethnic groups which are in essence like the racial groups in the US. Also, color-blind casting though inprecise, could also include the changes of ethnicities of a character that are not exactly racial classificiations, while this term more clearly invokes race. I think it is general considered a sub-topic of "color blind casting" in actual use, although in theory technical "color-blind" casting is only when you ignore race in casting, this often involves deliberately changing race for stylistic or social reasons, but in many cases it is hard to tell. Was Perry White recast as a black man in "Man of Steel" because Laurence Fishburne was the best actor they could find in a race neutral set of actors, or did they do it because of various stylistic or political inclinations of those making the film. I have seen people suggest the former, but not with any actual evidence they have direct insights into the thoughts of the directors. Next, was the casting of the role of Iris West in the TV Series Flash a result of feeling the actress they chose was the best, or was it for stylistic, political and story telling goals of the show. In that case it is at most a 1 color blind decision, as opposed to cases of total color blind casting, because there every relative role to that actress cast is done in a way that clearly acknowedges their race, there are other cases we can present where multiple roles are cast with people who based on either their looks or the racial identity of the actors could not be related. In some cases these are handwaved by making some people become adopted to explain their non-conforming look, but in other cases, most often in musical productions, they just go with it. Some of this brings to mind the Muppet Christmas Carol where Bob Cratchet and his wife are played by Kermit the Frog and Miss Piggy, but they make all their boys frogs and all the girls pigs. The even more fun thing on the Flash issue is that in the new Flash film the role of Iris West is again played by an actress who is generally classed as African-American, so is this a case of race role reversal from the comics, or is this a case where the changes to the role done in the TV show have become so deeply entenched in the public perception of the role that those making the film knew that if they did not cast an actress of African descent as Iris West, they would be savaged in some parts of social media and maybe elsewhere with vicious attacks as "white washing" the character and such? It is hard to say, although it does appear that at one point in development there were also two Euro-American actresses in consideration for the role of Iris West, so this may be a case of total color blind casting. My all time favorite to bring up is the show Merlin where an Afro-Guyanese descended British actress played the role of Ghinevere, but it was clearly not 100% color blind casting in that the role of her brother was also cast with an actor of African descent. Of course, maybe this is the result of fully color-blind casting decisions for the main characters where the main goal is to get strong actors, and for secondary characters they considered look to match where relation was established in a way that they did not for the primary characters. It is hard to know, and unless we can find secondary reliable sources that discuss this in depth, instead of my gathering notes from direct observations of the film, and then reading comments on TV tropes, it is going to be hard to justfy having full free standing articles on sub-topics of this idea, especially where what is what is not well established, and a lot of the discussion of it comes from social media posts that often put way more heat than light on the topic.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:09, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment So on futher review, race reverse casting seems to be the changing of all the races of the characters to tell a new story. I would argue the Death of a Salesman is not a case of this, if it is than The Wiz should be mentioned here, because if we are treating a total cast change than clearly recasting The Wizard of Oz with an all-African American cast is a thing. However, what was done in this one production of Othello was retelling the story by switching all the main characters races. So why exactly are we not speaking of how Guess Who (film) is a race reversal film of Guess Who's Coming to Dinner? The reason may be in part because those two films are not really the same story, just have some very minor conditions of the plot in common. The big thing in my mind is that "color-blind casting" does not literally mean race is ignored in cating, it means that it is approached in non-traditional ways, or is considered less than an absolute condition. The term covers a lot of similar but different things. In part because we have to judge the results and not always directorial]producetorial intent. For example, in some cases race changes from the material being adapted will be called for in screen plays or scripts for stage plays before casting is done, but sometimes screen plays and scripts will be rewritten to make sure they conform to the people who have actually been cast.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:56, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Our color-blind casting article treats any change from the race of the character/actor in either previous productions, or based on the known historical context of a real person as a case of color-blind casting. Thus merging together A-changes between the race/ethnicity of historical figures and the ones of the actor protraying them, 2-changes between the race/ethnicity of a fictional character, and the race/ethnicity of the character in a new production (it includes the Flash TV series under this rubric, which involves changes the race of multiple realted characters in a unified way), and 3-changes in the race of a role that is explicitly non-human and so tehcnically in the role itself does not involve race. The example for the last is the casting of Dean Cain as Superman in Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman. The fact that Dean Cain was of mostly European but partial Japanese ancestry may or may not make this different than if a fully Japanese ancestried actor had been given the role. The fact that his birth parents were shown and were cast with actors who at least appear to be of fully European descent may also have some bearing, although our article only mentions that Cain who was of Japanese descent was given the role, and previously the role had been portrayed by Euro-American actors, and Superman was always drawn to appear white in the comics.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:18, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I have to admit what I find oddest is that our Color-blind casting page mentions Spider-man homecoming as a case because a very minor character was recast from white to Hispanic, but does not mention that MJ Watson, who is arguably one of the 3 most important characters in the franchise, and if we consider the Frnachise as a whole may be the second most essentially character after Peter Parker/Spiderman, has a changed race. I guess some would argue since this MJ Watson is Michelle Jones Watson not Mary Jane Watson she is a different character, but I think from any story telling of stylistic view of what is going on, the name change does not make her a different character, she is still filling the same character niche and the name changes in this case leads to her being still called MJ most of the time.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:18, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.