Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mesivta Tiferes Yisroel

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Sandstein 07:43, 11 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mesivta Tiferes Yisroel

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Search in News and in Scholar returned nothing! In Books, it only returned directories that list schools, has been marked for refs for more than 3 years now. The ref provided is also of a directory website. A lot of it contains info that's not very encyclopedic. The Terminator p t c 21:19, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. — The Terminator p t c 21:20, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. — The Terminator p t c 21:20, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. — The Terminator p t c 21:20, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete No indication of wp:notability. No sources except a web page that had them on a list and which was not cited in the article. (actually just an external link) 95% of the article is self-descriptive and not enclyclopedic nor sourced. North8000 (talk) 23:05, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really know what qualifies something for notoriety or deletion, but a google search of "yeshiva tiferes yisroel" returns a couple of news stories. Google News didn't find them, but they exist.QueensQrew (talk) 07:09, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

- QueensQrew is right; the yeshiva complex, which includes the elementary school ("yeshiva ketana"), high school ("mesivta"), and post-high-school ("yeshiva gedola") programs enrolling up to 800 students, gets more news coverage under "Yeshiva Tiferes Yisroel". I took the liberty of renaming the page Yeshiva Tiferes Yisroel and added more references. Yoninah (talk) 09:28, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I removed the Lookstein listing and added a more accurate listing of the school and type and number of students. There are a number of YouTube videos of Purim activities at the school; still checking for more refs. Any yeshiva that has been around since 1988 shows its notability in the Jewish world, and contributes to our Template:Mesivtas. Yoninah (talk) 10:41, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - insufficient reliable sources to establish notability according to criteria for organisations. What accords the yeshivot on the Template:Mesivtas inherent notability? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:50, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Huh? I didn't say that the template accorded "inherent notability", I said that "Any yeshiva that has been around since 1988 shows its notability in the Jewish world". Yoninah (talk) 08:46, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as it's a very notable yeshiva in Brooklyn, and especially now that sources have been added. IZAK (talk) 01:46, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete fails WP:GNG. Also, lede needs to explain what it is in plain English. Stuartyeates (talk) 09:32, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Stuart: Be logical please. Question: If you don't know what "it" is, then how can you vote to "delete" it? It says right up front that it is an important Orthodox Judaism yeshiva in Brooklyn, New York. IZAK (talk) 05:14, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - My comment made two points, separated by also. The first point (that of failing WP:GNG) is completely independent of the second point (that of needing an edit to the lede). As per the AfD rules, the second point has no influence on the result of the AfD, but correcting the lede will give a better article if it's not deleted. The second point relates to the fact that the term yeshiva (as a foreign term) should not be used without introduction as per the manual of style. Stuartyeates (talk) 06:47, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - You gotta be kidding Stuart. You need to look up the WP article on Yeshiva to understand its reliable meaning in all languages. Just as the words Madrasah and Indaba and many more don't require "explanations", especially in the case of WP when, on top of general knowledge, they are approved words with links to WP encyclopedia articles about those terms. Bottom line, it is 100% fair to say that anyone who does not know what a Yeshiva is (or for that matter about any matter under discussion) should not inject themselves into serious discussions about their fate on WP AfDs. This should be obvious. Thanks. IZAK (talk) 07:31, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Isn't it the case that high schools (that are verifiable) are presumptively notable? I seem to recall our high school notability-focused editor, DGG, saying that more than once. Or something to that effect. (perhaps I'll leave him a note).--Epeefleche (talk) 09:33, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- As I noted above, there is much more news coverage for the whole yeshiva (elementary school, high school, and post-high-school programs) than for the high school (mesivta) itself. Therefore I moved this page to Yeshiva Tiferes Yisroel. For those who are having difficulty relating to Hebrew words, I am working on improving the Yeshiva article and adding pages on "Yeshiva ketana" (elementary school, "Mesivta" (high school), and "Beis Medrash" (post-high-school) programs. Yoninah (talk) 09:39, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Question. Why is this school any different from schools listed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Roman_Catholic_secondary_schools_in_Scotland - each one has its own article. Or the ones in List_of_schools_in_Manchester. Danny Schoemann (talk) 12:36, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep We have an established practice of having all high schools notable, secular or religious, public or private--but not lower level schools. The basis for this is the realization that all high schools will have RSs if we look carefully enough. (In this case, that's the case, and for those who think them insufficient, I point out that many Orthodox Jewish publication appear in paper format only) . The reason for accepting this is that there might be one or two or three percent that don't , and it is not worth having these discussions, which would have a higher error rate than that. Yet it is true we have deleted some Yeshivas in the past--sometimes on the (irrelevant--and not true in this case) grounds they have only a trivial number of students, sometimes on the (incorrect) ground that the curriculum is not academic, sometimes I fear on the grounds that we do not understand that they are high schools. I think that is the case here. As for some other points, Yeshiva is a common term in the US at least, and at any rate has an article about it for those who do not understand,. But it is always helpful to make the nature of the school clear in the lede , as is already the case in the present article. I ask those who nominated or !voted delete two questions: 1. Do they understand that this is a high school, and have therefore nommed or !voted on the basis that the high school/elementary school compromise should be revoked in general? or 2.Do they think yeshivas should be treated differently than other high schools? I note in this connection that there has been a reluctance here sometimes to admit the schools and college-level or graduate-level seminaries of various religions to be notable, sometimes even on the ground they are trade schools. I know what I think the nature of that reluctance to be. DGG ( talk ) 16:12, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Good encyclopaedic article on a notable yeshiva. Could do with some expansion. --Redaktor (talk) 16:27, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Article has since been improved. --Shuki (talk) 17:26, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Sources added do establish an appropriate level of notability for a school of this nature. Alansohn (talk) 17:41, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Per the added sources, and explanation above as to wp notability practice vis-a-vis high schools for which we have verifiable information.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:05, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.