Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of hospitals in Angola

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Vanamonde (Talk) 01:05, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

List of hospitals in Angola

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This is a questionably notable list of hospitals in Angola. It only contains four items. Two of which are red links and the other two are to non-English articles. If I remember correctly, Wikipedia requires at least one blue link in a list for it to be notable or the list should be taken as a whole. I guess having blue links to non-English articles counts as one blue link, but it doesn't seem like the correct way for a list to be notable. Adamant1 (talk) 22:14, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 22:32, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 01:53, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 01:53, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or merge: We have set up standards for List of hospitals at the country level. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Hospitals/Tutorials#Notability In cases where there are only a few hospitals of note, they are listed in the Lists of hospitals in Continent article or the Healthcare in Country article and there is a Redirect for List of hospitals in Country. I did not know at first whether there were a lot of hospitals in Angola, so I started with a stand alone article since there were at least four. Please don't delete this article unless the hospitals are merged into either the Healthcare in Angola or Lists of hospitals in Africa articles. There may be other notable hospitals in Angola that don't currently have articles in any language. Some more research will be required to find them. The goal of the project is to have either an articl or redirect for each country. WP:HOS -- Talk to G Moore 02:13, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is no article Healthcare in Angola. It's a redirect. Our coverage of the subject is non-existent. Deleting this list is not helpful. Rathfelder (talk) 17:51, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be totally fine with a redirect to a hospitals in Africa article or something. If the only two blue linked sources aren't English language articles then there shouldn't be an English language list about it IMO though. Since its not a notable enough topic to English speakers. Id love to see a policy or discussion about creating lists of articles in multiple langauges though or where the languages aren't the defualt of whatever Wikipedia language the article is being created in. I've personally never seen a list like that. So I assume its not usually something that's done. Adamant1 (talk) 09:22, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The topic is notable per WP:LISTN – see BBC, for example. The topic should therefore be retained for improvement per WP:ATD; WP:IMPERFECT and WP:PRESERVE. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:41, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What about the fact that it's not blue linked to any English language articles? That's the whole point in lists. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:46, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's not the whole point nor is it our policy. We have lots of lists where none of the entries are articles. What we have here is just half-baked but that's ok because it is our policy that it's ok to build up pages from an incomplete and imperfect start. Andrew🐉(talk) 15:04, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Two things Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lists says about stand alone list articles "The items on these lists include links to articles in a particular subject area." So yes it is part of the guideline that lists have links to articles. Like I said, that's the point in them. Otherwise, the guideline wouldn't say it is. Also, WP:NOTESAL says "The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been. Because the group or set is notable, the individual items in the list do not need to be independently notable." It's not clear in this case that the items in the list are "notable as a set", because it's not how the sourcing discusses them. Therefore, the only other way the list would be notable is if some of the items are documented. So, 100% if there are blue links matters for this list. --Adamant1 (talk) 15:24, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's not the rule. There is no rule that lists must contain a bluelink. See in particular WP:CSC #2, "Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria." That would be impossible if bluelinks were required. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:09, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep One on German Wikipedia seems notable, as a large hospital with heaps of press coverage, I can just translate that actually if the lack of blue links are getting you down. Seems adequately sourced. Arguments made by Andrew and G Moore are appropriate re conservation of the list. PainProf (talk) 02:02, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is no policy that any article has to be notable to English speakers. Notability is not affected by the language of sources. Rathfelder (talk) 17:47, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As was posted in the admin noticeboard, it matters as far as the burden of proof that the source is reliable is on the person posting it, and there isn't a way to determine the reliability of a source you can't read. Which ultimately has nothing to do with language of the source. Ultimately, I could care less what language something is in, but I do care if it's reliable or not. I agree with you outside of that though. Hopefully the whole language discussion is done now. --Adamant1 (talk) 20:45, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The policy is that "There should be a list article for every country or state with hospitals." Rathfelder (talk) 21:25, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I assume your talking about something having to do with Wikipedia:WikiProject_Hospitals? If so, I wouldn't call a goal of a Wikiproject a "policy." Plus, they still have notability guidelines for things. --Adamant1 (talk) 21:28, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, Wikipedia:WikiProject_Hospitals' policy on lists is clearly laid out on the projects talk page and it pretty mirrors that of the normal notability guidelines for lists. No where does it say there that there should be a list article for every country or state with hospitals. It is mentioned in the tutorials, but it says that lists should contain a reference for each hospital listed and that notable hospitals should have links to the article about the hospital. No where is implied that the normal notability guidelines for lists don't apply to ones about hospitals though. --Adamant1 (talk) 01:58, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Healthcare in Angola. Only a few hospitals require no separate article. Bvatsal61 (talk) 08:26, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I dont see how such a merger would help the development of our coverage of Angola. Rathfelder (talk) 11:29, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I see the fact we have one article about a Hospital in Angola, a country of 30 million, to be somewhat embarrassing and before Rathfelder's work we had none, merging a list here would not help. Similarly, no other country has their hospitals listed at Hospitals in Africa, it seems preposterous to have a list of all the hospitals in a continent. I think we should be working to improve our coverage of African medical facilities rather than removing what little information we had. PainProf (talk) 12:55, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Merging to Healthcare in Angola would be a good comprise. It would help that article not get deleted in the future due to it's bad sourcing. Plus, having the list in it would be helpful information and there's zero reason to duplicate it. It's not like a separate list can't be created if, or when, there's an actual need to have one. As it is though, it's a useless [[WP:CFORK]. BTW, it's kind of circular/bad reasoning to keep a list because coverage of the topic is poor. The point in lists isn't to catalog what subjects need expanding. Plus, there could be completely legitimate reasons why there aren't English articles on Angolan hospitals. My guess is that there probably was some at one point but they got deleted. Either that or they just weren't created in the first place due to lack of good sources. It's extremely doubtful there's never been an English article about an Angolan hospital in the 20 years Wikipedia has been around though. You shouldn't create badly sourced articles to justify keeping the list either. That's the wrong way to go about this. Especially since they will probably just get deleted in the future anyway. --Adamant1 (talk) 17:24, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Closure
The result was merge into Healthcare in Angola. I have performed a merger of all the material and turned the original article into a redirect. Contributors are encouraged to further improve the Healthcare in Angola article. The article can easily be recreated in the future, if/when more material has been assembled. Olivier (talk) 19:00, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
Comment - Following a request from the closer for technical assistance, I have reopened this AfD. [1][2] --Jack Frost (talk) 09:02, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Discussion reopened in order to generate additional comments and to tentatively reach a consensus. The article has been restored in the meantime. Olivier (talk) 10:24, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have no real objection to merging into Healthcare in Angola. Stand alone lists are not very helpful. Rathfelder (talk) 10:35, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note. Discussions about lists of hospitals are taking place at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hospitals. I have posted a note there, inviting contributions. Olivier (talk) 10:55, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep These entries happen to be notable (whether we like it or not, basically all extant hospitals meet both GNG and WP:NCORP), but there is no rule that requires the articles to have already been created anyway. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:09, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Were does it say anywhere that all extant hospitals meet both GNG and WP:NCORP? They are no different then any other organization when it comes to notability. Even Wikiproject Hospitals has notability guidelines and they don't include all extant hospitals being notable. Adamant1 (talk) 05:00, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Clearly notable list that passes WP:LISTN. It might could be argued that an individual hospital may or may not be notable, lists of hospitals in a clearly defined geographic or political region are automatically going to be considered notable, even if NONE of the individual hospitals are. WP:LISTN clearly states that not every (nor any) entry must be notable (although it is within editor discretion to limit the list to notable examples). Lists are both navigation tools and informational tools, and lists of hospitals for other countries already have consensus as an acceptable article type. In fact, we have lists of lists of hospitals, Lists of hospitals in Africa and even Lists of Lists of Lists, ie: Lists of hospitals. The only question is if there are enough hospitals in Angola to populate a List page, and even Google Maps will answer that as "yes" in about 5 seconds (hint: yes). Policy is crystal clear here, the list passes the criteria for inclusion. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:40, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.