Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Turkic dynasties and countries

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Editors were less confident that List of Turkic dynasties and countries couldn't be written in a useful and policy-compliant fashion, but there was general consensus that the current state of these articles is unusable WP:OR and no suitable targets for a redirect currently exist. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 01:26, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

List of Turkic dynasties and countries

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I am also nominating the following related page because of the same issues:

WP:OR/WP:SYNTH, fail WP:LISTCRITERIA (the lists equivalent of WP:NONDEFINING), and long series of precedents confirming that language family is WP:NONDEFINING for countries, territories, and individual people:

This saga starts with a 16 November 2006 TfD resulting in a Delete of Template:Turkish History Brief for pan-turkic bias.
A 23 November 2006 TfD resulted in a Keep of Template:Turkic-speaking (because Template:Indo-Iranian-speaking was also nominated, the latter's rationale being this template is categoriz[ing] nations where the language [is spoken], according this template what is next? [An] English speaking nations template with 250 countries? Both were kept at the time).
A 17 December 2006 AfD resulted in a Keep of List of Turkic states and empires, the old title of the current article "List of Turkic dynasties and countries" which this AfD nominates for deletion. The Keep was partially based on the Keep of "Template:Turkic-speaking", but...
A 2013 TfD resulted in a Delete of Template:Turkic-speaking, along with many other similar "Fooian-speaking (regions)" templates per WP:NENAN.
A 8 January 2020 CfR resulted in Delete of "Baltic/Indo-Iranian/Romance/Slavic countries and territories" per WP:NONDEFINING. This precedent resulted in a chain of related countries-and-territories-by-language-family category deletions.
A 17 January 2020 CfD resulted in Delete of 14 countries-and-territories-by-language-family categories, including Category:Turkic countries and territories. This confirmed that there was consensus to delete countries and territories by language family altogether, because language family is not defining for any of these countries or territories.
A 4 March 2023 CfD resulted in Delete of another 14 countries-and-territories-by-language-family categories, including Category:Countries by language family, Category:Turkic states, Category:Historical Turkic states, and Category:Turkic rump states as a follow-up to 8 January 2020 CfR and 17 January 2020 CfD per WP:G4 (and indirectly WP:NONDEFINING, WP:ARBITRARYCAT and WP:SUBJECTIVECAT).
A 7 March 2023 CfD resulted in Manually merge of "Turkic/Germanic/Celtic rulers" per WP:OCEGRS, the 17 January 2020 CfD, WP:NONDEFINING and WP:OR.
A 7 March 2023 AfD resulted in Soft Delete of "List of Turkic monarchs" per WP:UNSOURCED, WP:OR, WP:OCEGRS, the 17 January 2020 CfD, and WP:NONDEFINING.
A 21 April AfD resulted in Delete of "List of Turkic scholars" per WP:CROSSCAT, WP:UNSOURCED, WP:OCEGRS, and WP:NONDEFINING.
A 21 April 2023 CfD resulted in Delete of "Medieval Turkic geographers/mathematicians/Sufi religious leaders" per WP:SMALLCAT and WP:NONDEFINING.
A simultaneous CfD resulted in Delete of Category:Fictional Turkic people per WP:OCEGRS and WP:NONDEFINING.
- A follow-up to this is still ongoing per WP:OCEGRS and WP:NONDEFINING, currently also in favour of Delete.

I think the evidence speaks for itself. I'm happy to nominate any other Lists of countries/territories/people by language family if anyone would like to invoke WP:OTHERSTUFF. For now, I rest my case. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:23, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Language, Geography, and Lists. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:23, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per overwhelming evidence, nothing more to add. Dronebogus (talk) 15:23, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, and Turkey. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 17:30, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. If this could get deleted too that would be great (List of Iranian dynasties and countries). --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:47, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm planning to nominate that one next, amongst other lists. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 04:04, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! It's greatly appreciated. Feel free to ping me when you do, as I'll gladly support you. For years I've been thinking about nominating these type of articles for deletion, but due to a mix of doubt that it would go through and laziness I never did that. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:13, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Nederlandse Leeuw You don't have to separately nominate it for deletion. You can just add that article to this nomination per WP:MULTIAFD. Aintabli (talk) 22:40, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I know, but I'm using these two lists as a test case that is focused entirely on previously established "Turkic" precedents (which has a strong consensus on Turkic countries/territories/individuals categories, and on Turkic individuals lists). This is the first "List of [language family] countries" nom in this series. I want to make sure it succeeds. I wanna make sure we're all on the same page before I nominate more of the same type. Multiple nominations run the risk of receiving a lot of opposition if there is no clear precedent. But I can tell you already that I've got about 9 other such lists waiting in line to be AfD'd once this one receives enough support. Thanks for suggesting it though! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:51, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Turkic peoples, which covers everything in that article which is possibly worth keeping. No objection to history deletion. Walt Yoder (talk) 00:17, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've got no objection to salvaging/recycling potentially relevant information elsewhere. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 04:05, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But I'm opposed to keeping the redirect because this may lend an evidently illegitimate concept legitimacy. Redirects imply a certain kind of legitimacy, just that a topic is better known under a different name, or is not notable enough for its own article but notable enough as a section in another article. I don't want to give off that impression. There is a reason of strongly established principle that we shouldn't frame matters in this WP:CROSSCAT manner of language family + country, and I think this includes redirects, as well as categories, lists and templates previously deleted (as outlined above). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 04:14, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Too broad and essentially a WP:CFORK with Turkic peoples. gidonb (talk) 03:01, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comparison of the Turkic states is somehwat similar though not identical. It should also be deleted. These countries should be discussed in Western Asia and in Central Asia sperately and articles on the Organization of Turkic States and International Organization of Turkic Culture already exist. There is no need to repeat every piece of data time and again in different combinations. For the record, my concern here is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH as this pulled together nations that are in either of two organizations. Better to stick to continents, subcontinents, and recognized regions within subcontinents (which are all the examples under see also). gidonb (talk) 13:51, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:19, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Just to be clear, I co-nominated Comparison of the Turkic states in this AfD. Some people seem to have missed that, and the creator of that article thought I made a mistake, but I deliberately co-nominated them. This is about arbitrary [[WP:CROSSCAT] groupings of "Turkic" countries, territories, dynasties, states, rump states, khaganates, khanates, hordes/ulus, emirates, sultanates, caliphates, kingdoms, empires, republics, polities, oblasts, etc.: the whole shebang. If I missed any such lists, please say so. (16 Great Turkic Empires might be a legitimate topic, but I'm gonna look into that one, too. Anatolian beyliks seems geography-based rather than language family-based, so that one seems fine. Turco-Persian wars may be an arbitrary grouping of "Göktürks" and "Ottomans" as "Turkic", as well as "Sasanians", "Safavids" and "Qajars" as "Persian".) Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:07, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Will renaming the article as “Comparison of members of the Organization of Turkic States” satisfy you? Joseph (talk) 14:48, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It might, if sources are not WP:SYNTHed the way they are right now. That might save the article in the short term. But you raised a valid point at the talk page about the likewise dubious legitimacy of Comparison of the Baltic states, Comparison of the Benelux countries and Comparison of the Nordic countries, which already have the same issues as the reworked article you are proposing would still have. This group of 4 articles is still vulnerable to deletion in the long term (which I would not oppose, even though I reside in one of the countries concerned; it's just questionable whether these articles have encyclopedic added value). But that decision does not lie solely with me, but the community. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:53, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep for “List of Turkic dynasties and countries”. The article is here for 19 years, what has changed now? It doesn’t list any inapproriate content, nothing is copyrighted or infringed. It doesnt steal any bits. The term “Turkic” is used both politically and academically to denote linguistics and ethnicities. True or not, Turkic states (TR, AZ, KZ, KG, UZ and TM) and Hungary supports this historic affiliation between these states (Turan in case of Hungary). I see no harm in such a grouping.--Joseph (talk) 19:04, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The article is here for 19 years WP:OLDARTICLE.

It doesn’t list any inapproriate content, nothing is copyrighted or infringed. It doesnt steal any bits. No, but those are not the problems I'm highlighting.

The term “Turkic” is used both politically and academically to denote linguistics and ethnicities. Yes, but we are talking about states, countries and dynasties here, not linguistics and ethnicities.

True or not, Turkic states (TR, AZ, KZ, KG, UZ and TM) and Hungary supports this historic affiliation between these states (Turan in case of Hungary). The current governments of these current states only do so through the Organization of Turkic States (OTS), which is a modern political organisation. Governments can make lots of statements that do not have to be taken seriously by an encyclopaedia. E.g. the government of Hungary cannot make "the Hungarian people" or the Republic of Hungary "Turkic" just by signing a document, ignoring linguistics. Incidentally, are you going to include Hungary if you were to rename the article Comparison of the Turkic states to Comparison of members of the Organization of Turkic States? If not, why not? Why haven't you included Hungary as an OTS observer state (since 2018) in Template:Supranational Turkic Bodies, even though you did include Turkmenistan (since 2021)? Somehow it seems that you are unwilling to include Hungary, even though it is just as much an observer state of the OTS as Turkmenistan.

I see no harm in such a grouping. WP:NOHARM. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:11, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep for “Comparison of Turkic States”. First, this is different article, thus I belive it deserves individual nomination for further discussion. It’s content is not inappropriate or copyrighted. It gives a summary for “Turkic States” in general, no other wiki pages gives this summary. For classification; Comparison of the Baltic states doesnt list biggest states in the Baltics: Sweden or Finland, because the term Baltic states are not used for them. There is a grouping used internationally. Similarly, there are tons of links that groups Turkic states. I see no harm keeping the article either.--Joseph (talk) 19:04, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I belive it deserves individual nomination for further discussion. It is valid to nominate multiple articles which have the same issues. In fact, it is encouraged (as several other users have also suggested that I should nominate even more articles).

not inappropriate or copyrighted. Copyright is not the problem.

a summary for “Turkic States” in general This is the problem: there are no objective criteria by which to identify "Turkic states", and as the long list of precedents above show, there is consensus we should not group, list or categorise countries or territories by language family.

[What about] Comparison of the Baltic states[?] WP:OTHERSTUFF. I told you already at the talk page that if you've got a problem with Comparison of the Baltic states, Comparison of the Benelux countries and Comparison of the Nordic countries, you can nominate them for deletion as well. It's not a relevant argument to Keep Comparison of the Turkic states against the objection of being an arbitary WP:CROSSCAT between countries and language family, as strong consensus in previous precedents has established.

Similarly, there are tons of links that groups Turkic states. Those may have to be removed next, depending on the outcome.

I see no harm keeping the article either. WP:NOHARM. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:26, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Comparison of the Turkic states, weak delete List of Turkic dynasties and countries. I think it may be possible to have a policy compliant article on Turkic dynasties based on sources like this, but both articles are WP:OR messes and would need complete rewrite/TNT in any case. Ultimately we should not host these "comparison" articles unless there are specifically a significant number of sources actually "comparing" and those are what the article is based on. (t · c) buidhe 06:12, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:11, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete both articles. I support deleting similar articles/lists with very same issues (POV/OR mess); e.g. List of Iranian dynasties and countries. --Mann Mann (talk) 14:09, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I will nominate them next once this one receives enough support. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:42, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Comparison of the Turkic states. I am not fond of List of Turkic dynasties and countries either, it feels like a WP:SYNTH job in its current state, but I am less sure that nothing could come of the topic, and am unsure if the current content needs to be merged into some other locations. CMD (talk) 02:52, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Could you name a list article with a similar scope which does not have the same or similar issues as List of Turkic dynasties and countries? I'm open to ATD, I just don't see any. And many people above are already saying similar list articles should be nominated next. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:24, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.