Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holiest sites in Sufi Islam

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Daniel (talk) 00:41, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Holiest sites in Sufi Islam

Holiest sites in Sufi Islam (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Sufi Islam is not a sect, and sources do not contain notablity, for example: There's not a single source which indicates that all sites mentioned are holy in "Sufi Islam". Biskut Merry (talk) 04:03, 30 August 2021 (UTC) Comment: Half of the sources on the entire article are in the "Opposition to shrines" section which has nothing to do with Holiest sites in Sufi Islam Biskut Merry (talk) 04:10, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2021 August 30. —^{cyberbot I}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 04:18, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete I don’t see any evidence that this is even a topic, never mind a notable topic. It looks like the article creator just assembled a list of sites they’d heard of and thought were important. I mean there isn’t even a junk listicle to support the general topic. The article creator’s talk page is a grisly boneyard of warnings and blocks about adding unsourced content, removing sourced content, soapboxing and disruption. Many other editors have worked on this over the years but this mostly seems to have added to the bloat of unsourced “local knowledge” about individual sites. Mccapra (talk) 09:08, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 15:42, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 15:43, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - This article seems to be inspired by our already quite redundant series of articles Holiest sites in Islam, Holiest sites in Shia Islam, and Holiest sites in Sunni Islam (all of which are POV-hell and extremely poor). Except that this one really doesn't fit in the mold, simply because there are so many different Sufi sects, and because these would never agree on a specific set of sites as 'the' holiest (like mainstream medieval Muslim theologians over the centuries did agree on a traditional set of four holiest sites, to wit the Kaaba in Mecca, The Prophet's Mosque in Medina, al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem and the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus). To be sure, Sufi sites that are just holy are plentiful: it is precisely rather typical of Sufism (though neither exclusive nor inherent) to turn the tombs of holy men into shrines and to organize pilgrimages (Arabic: ziyarat) to them. Indeed, our List of ziyarat locations consists for the most part of Sufi shrines. Also, Holiest_sites_in_Islam#Sufi_Islam seems to focus on the largest Sufi sites, and Largest Sufi shrines or Most-visited Sufi shrines would indeed perhaps be a notable topic. But holiest Sufi sites, that's just not a thing. I briefly searched Google scholar and Google books, and found nothing. I would be thoroughly surprised if anyone could come up with a reliable source that specifically and significantly covers the subject of religious sites that would be regarded as the holiest by 'Sufi Islam' taken as a whole. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 18:41, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - a quick WP:BEFORE reveals an abundance of reliable sources on holy sites in Sufi Islam that would certainly meet WP:GNG, or WP:LISTN if we treat this as a list. Here are some examples of articles and books: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] - you get the idea. The current article might be poorly sourced and need improvement but WP:AFDNOTCLEANUP. The title of the article could do with improving (how can you define holiest or holy?) but I assume this was done to keep with other similar articles as has been noted - maybe the is the crux of the argument here?. Holy sites in Sufi Islam are most definitely notable. Vladimir.copic (talk) 04:27, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • All the sources provided here are about Sufi shrines. As these sources indicate, Sufi shrine definitely is a notable subject, but it is simply not the subject of this article. If the article were to be renamed to 'Sufi shrine' it would also need to be rewritten from scratch: right now, it doesn't say what a Sufi shrine is, how and when they originated, what their function is, what role they play in contemporary Islam, etc. Rather, the article currently under discussion takes it for granted that the reader knows what a Sufi shrine is, and only endeavors to list the 'most holy' of them. Converting it to a List of Sufi shrines also would also serve little purpose, given the fact that we don't even have Sufi shrine and given the fact that the salvageable content on individual shrines in the current article is entirely unsourced. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 18:01, 5 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have to point to WP:AFDNOTCLEANUP again. I also cannot see the difference here between "holy site" and "shrine" - this just seems to be playing linguistics. Shrines make up a large proportion of holy sites recognised by Sufis - not sure what the issue with that is. Generally I don't like list articles and think they should be deleted but seeing as this is not being proposed with its sister sites (Holiest sites in Islam, Holiest sites in Shia Islam, and Holiest sites in Sunni Islam) I can't support a delete. No one has deleted this section due to lack of notability. The use of the superlative in article title for these is quite silly and WP:POV (holiest according to who). They should probably all be converted to "Holy sites in...". I could be persuaded to delete all of these articles though with the right reasoning but just singling out the Sufi one doesn't seem right. Vladimir.copic (talk) 06:35, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • If it were acceptable to just pick a related notable subject, to claim that this is the real subject, and then to cite AFDNOTCLEANUP, it would be impossible to delete any article on any subject even distantly related to something notable. As I explained above, there is a sourceable 'according to whom' for "the holiest" sites in Islam generally: it is the POV of a significant group of medieval Islamic theologians as conveyed by modern sources. There is just no such thing in Sufism, and to create a 'sister' article out of concern for balance would be patently false (it's exactly the mistake that happened here, and that we should now correct). Agreed that the pages on the holiest sites in Shia Islam and in Sunni Islam should be merged into the one on Islam generally (and perhaps some lists of merely 'holy' sites in various branches of Islam, including Sufism), but that's really WP:OTHERSTUFF. The discussion here is about this article with this topic. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 09:24, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Simply not notable at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RamotHacker (talk • contribs) 18:45, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.