Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fritz Neumayr

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There is clear consensus that notability has not been demonstrated thus far; the arguments to keep don't have a basis in policy, as criteria based on participation have been explicitly rejected. There are indications that coverage in German media may exist: if someone finds some, and wishes to work on a draftspace copy, I would be willing to provide one assuming they're acting in good faith. Vanamonde (Talk) 05:24, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fritz Neumayr

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Does not appear to meet WP:NSPORT or WP:GNG and lacks WP:SIGCOV. Of the six references included, three of them are sports database entries, two are passing mentions (one of which is just them in a team picture), and one is inaccessible (a book). Hey man im josh (talk) 19:33, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Football, and Germany. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:33, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

AGAINST. There's nothing related to soccer in WP:NSPORT. Intentionally or unintentionally, I don't know.

3 primary sources, which OP has disqualified due to being from "sports databses", which is a new one plus some others which means the article meets:WP:GNG and WP:SIGCOV. If OP could cite a "no sports databases" rule, that would be helpful. I do not think it exists considering sites like (https://www.basketball-reference.com/) are listed as part of Wikipedia templates for players like Stephen Curry.

The magazine that OP has an issue with cites a book as a source, hence why it was used.

Just because OP does not have the book does not disqualify it. There's millions of books on this site that OP does not have or have access to. Books aren't free, can't be shared without breaking copyright law, nor are there enough copies for 8 billion people. There's also limited availability of books based on where you are located - Not everyone ships to other countries or ever sold books in more than one country.

Additionally, Fritz Neumayr would pass notability for 1) Playing in a top division in Germany (Gauliga), 2) Playing in the top cup of Germany (1931 German football championship), 3) Being a captain of the team. OP has stated that he believes Fritz was somehow made captain of TSV 1860 Munich for only 6 listed appearances in 11 years. That seems highly unlikely, but also ignores the obvious - not every newspaper ever created has been made available online. It seems highly unlikely that no report.— Preceding unsigned comment added by KatoKungLee (talk • contribs) 19:56, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NSPORT states Sports which are not listed on this page should defer to the Basic criteria for guidance. The target, WP:SPORTCRIT, states Trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may be used to support content in an article, but it is not sufficient to establish notability. This includes listings in database sources with low, wide-sweeping generic standards of inclusion, such as Sports Reference's college football and basketball databases.

As discussed on my talk page, participation based criteria (such as WP:NFOOTY, the previous go-to notability guideline for soccer players) is part of what was removed under proposal 3 at WP:NSPORTS2022.

I don't recall stating that I thought he became captain (which we need a source on) with only 6 games played. We should not infer that someone is notable without supporting evidence and the burden is not on me to prove that the sports database references you added are incorrect. I understand not all books are accessible, but I simply don't agree that notability has been demonstrated in this case. Can you point me towards a notability standard that this article currently meets? Hey man im josh (talk) 21:00, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NSPORTS2022 makes no reference to soccer which is the main problem of this whole debate. The only thing it says is that playing 1 game does not make you notable, which is useless as under that, no player would be notable.

What we do know is that he was the captain on team that was in the top division (Gauliga) and played in the top cup tournament (1931 German football championship). We know he did this over a span of 11 years, so he wasn't a substitute for a day. We also know TSV 1860 Munich played more than 6 games a season (actually 22 games a season) by looking at the 1933–34 Gauliga Bayern, so we know the sources did not have information for all of their games. If you don't believe that he only played 6 games in 11 seasons, which would be the common sense move, I don't really understand why you would mark this for deletion since he played regularly for a top flight team in a top flight division over a span of 11 years.

I've already cited a magazine and a book he was mentioned in, since the book cited the magazine. I've cited three different databases as well. If I find a non-website source with more information, you might say you can't see the book so it doesn't count, which is what you did above with the other book mentioned. Why am I to believe that you would accept a 2nd book when a magazine and book were already rejected? KatoKungLee (talk) 21:32, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If I find a non-website source with more information, you might say you can't see the book so it doesn't count, which is what you did above with the other book mentioned. Why am I to believe that you would accept a 2nd book when a magazine and book were already rejected? – Would you be willing to tell us what's in the books relating to Neumayr? If you have the books and you find that they in-depth cover Neumayr, then the article could potentially be kept. BeanieFan11 (talk) 21:49, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're speculating a lot so I want to point you to WP:SYNTH: Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source. All the sources that we've found state that he's only played in 6 games but you're set on the idea that he's played in far more. Facts must be verifiable, even if the sources used to verify the fact are not accessible to all. WP:NSPORTS2022 is the reason that WP:NFOOTY and WP:NGRIDIRON no longer exist as notability guidelines and it established that participation in a league is not enough to pass notability guidelines. This means you're required to demonstrate that WP:GNG is met.

Why am I to believe that you would accept a 2nd book when a magazine and book were already rejected? We're allowed to disagree but you should remember to assume good faith. I don't think I've done anything that should make you believe I'm acting in bad faith. You mention that the magazine referenced the book, but am I to understand you added it as a reference without having seen the book content yourself? It's fine that a source is not accessible to all those involved but we need to understand what's in the source.

As I stated, the sources that you provided only included a single passing mention each. I'm absolutely open to sources being provided and I'd love to be wrong about an article I send to AfD. Hey man im josh (talk) 00:13, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if there's a use common sense wikipedia rule, but maybe there should be. It's just not feasible that a player would stay with the same team for 11 years and only play in 6 of 220 games and be made captain, especially in 1930's Germany where they weren't getting paid big bucks. We know he played more (because we'd know if he didn't due to having the most bizarre career in sports history otherwise). We don't know the exact number, but I never claimed the exact number.KatoKungLee (talk) 03:12, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Its a shame there's no large German newspaper archives – like there is at Newspapers.com for American papers – or is there? BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:14, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- You are welcome to share any information you may have and are welcome to assist in researching the article. KatoKungLee (talk) 20:29, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  Deutsches Zeitungsportal might be what you're looking for. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 21:56, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  Although I'm not finding anything relevant under "Fritz Neumayr", someone who can actually speak German may have better luck. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 21:59, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  
  I could have maybe used something from it, but the font chosen for the newspapers I saw was non-traditional and my computer couldn't covert it.KatoKungLee (talk) 01:52, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Per KatoKungLee. Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 22:48, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to note a concern that this user was notified of this discussion by KatoKungLee. They were not a major contributor to the article (having only removed the PROD tag) so there was no reason to notify them, but they were notified in a neutral tone. KatoKungLee's rational is also based on participation, a criteria which was removed by WP:NSPORTS2022. Hey man im josh (talk) 23:45, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 09:26, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - the arguments for keep all relate to participation, which we specifically decided was no longer an acceptable justification for keeping in WP:NSPORTS2022 and, in fact, this type of article is exactly the type that the community was looking to restrict from being created as it's a stats entry rather than an 'article'. Per WP:SPORTBASIC, we require Sports biographies must include at least one reference to a source providing significant coverage of the subject, excluding database sources. There is no evidence of this. The book that we are all debating about is published by his employer so wouldn't count towards GNG or SPORTBASIC anyway as it's not independent of the subject. If people believe that significant coverage does exist but more time is needed, I would suggest draftify. Otherwise, delete. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 09:37, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 19:43, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment As it stands this is just a stub article, but there are some issues here, post WW2 which could mean a lot of sources could have been destroyed by war. Yes, there is an issue with game and goal count. It makes sense this is an under count. WP:OFFLINESOURCES is an option here, but because of the period I wouldn't be surprised that it would be a really tough task to get the sources and the information to build an article. This really needed to be started in draft space. I also have one question, is this person the same as the one noted here and here. It's not hard to rebuild from this stage if delete. Govvy (talk) 17:29, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Fails WP:GNG Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 01:09, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Therapyisgood (talk) 08:59, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Draftify - The 1949 magazine entry (published by 1860) suggests that Neumayr was one of the most important 1860 players from the club's first 50 years who was still capable of playing in the commemorative match. Some of the other 1860 players who participated are clearly notable (de:Anton Huber (Fußballspieler, I), Ludwig Lachner, Max Schäfer, de:Gustav Thalmeier, de:Max Kob, de:Alois Pledl), so it stands to reason that Neumayr was included in the squad because he was also a notable 1860 footballer. Clearly, we haven't located significant coverage in online sources yet, but I think scrubbing some of the de:wiki articles might help us get there. Jogurney (talk) 16:44, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll note that a book (Hardy Grüne, Claus Melchior: Legenden in Weiß und Blau. 100 Jahre Fußballgeschichte eines Münchner Traditionsvereines. Die Werkstatt, Göttingen 1999, ISBN 3-89533-256-9) is cited in several biographies for 1860 players who were contemporaries of Neumayr. I can't be sure that he Neumayr is covered in that book, but knowing that other footballers who played in that 1949 commemorative match are, suggests someone with access to the book might find something useful about Neumayr in it. Jogurney (talk)
This book appears to be available here, but the DNB archive is currently down for maintenance. Jogurney (talk) 17:38, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Jogurney: An editor with access to the book stated that it contained the following information on him (in English): "Fritz Neumayr: In 1929 Fritz Neumayr changed from FC Stern Munich to TSV 1860 Munich, but his big time didn't begin before 1931/32. Since this season the later team captain formed TSV 1860's defense for years together with Sepp Wendl. He played his last season in 1939/40." BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:37, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you BeanieFan11. I was hoping the book might provide in-depth coverage, but based on that translation, I think it comes up short. I would still support draftification in case there are other German-language books that go into more detail. If Neumayr truly captained 1860 for several seasons in the 1930s, it is possible that something else is out there. Jogurney (talk) 15:45, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.