User talk:Sj/Arc2

1 : Before 7/04 | 2 : 2004.2 | 3 : 2005.1 | 4 : 2005.2 | 5 : 2006.1 +/-

I was just about to leave you a message about the project when I saw your message to me. Yes, I read the New York Times (incl. Book Review from beginning to end), Newsweek, Smithsonian, and The Periodical of Punctuation regularly, and several others randomly. I have also been thinking of subscribing to Mother Jones. I like the idea. Danny 00:06, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Oh heavens, not another Period Pun zealot. That explains a lot, Danny. The Book Review would be a great place to start improving our lit articles, of course. And we need a few Mother Jones and Jane's Electronics readers, too, maybe even some Mainline Lady subscribers... +sj+

Wikisummaries: why not? but change the name.-SV 06:20, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes. :) SV 17:40, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A quick - OK, actually, probably a long question regarding your candidacy for the arbcom. How do you think you would have ruled/would rule in the following cases?

Thanks for the questions, Snowspinner. In general, I think there are a few broad authorisations/recommendations which will be referenced by many arbitrations; I will respond briefly, and later come back and generalize. +sj+

Key:

RPA - Remove personal attacks (with prejudice). Any editor may remove/rv aggressive or offensive comments (particularly on user/talk pages) by this user, with great leeway. Taking time to extract meaningful comments from insults is encouraged, but not required. Entire comments may be rv'ed for abusive tone and embedded insults, in contrast with the milder version of RPA that applies to everyone.

Bans: Ban duration and specific reason are, as with any bans, at the discretion of the banning admin, save where otherwise specified.
    PA Ban - Personal attack bans: User may be banned for making personal attacks against other editors.
    Art Ban - Article bans: User may be banned for editing [a specific set of] articles
    Talk Ban - User may be banned for editing [a specific set of] talk pages
    EL Ban - External link bans: User may be banned for adding [specific] external links to articles [and other pages]

Flags: User added to special list / user contribs added to special public watchlist/flagged in RC. For public recognition of disruptive activity/trolling, enhanced RC patrolling.

• Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Irismeister 2
  1. [1], the link in the RfA, highlights emotional, disruptive contributions.
  • Final decisions were good; but overly detailed, took a month too long to produce, and remain marked 'interim' two months later. This might have been a routine response by the AC, authorising a PA Ban (admins) and RPA (all editors).
• Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Mr-Natural-Health
  1. 'Abusive... combative edits'. many persistent examples.
  2. Does not play well with others. From the AC page itself: "My original objective on Wikipedia was accomplished on day one... prov[ing] my mental superiority to those of the science bigots on Wikipedia... While I would love to continue wasting huge amounts of time dealing with morons and bigots on Wikipedia, I happen to have a life... My original characterization of the gang of thugs on Wikipedia has been proven correct over and over again."
  3. David Gerard, who brought up the RfA, expresses the standard confounding desire: "He knows a huge amount about the area and could possibly contribute brilliantly" -- but the desire for expert contributors should not trump the need for a functioning, polite community.
  • Authorise RPA, a PA Ban, and perhaps a 3-month subject-area Art Ban -- disallowing edits to alt-medicine articles, but allowing comments on Talk pages -- that is, where not removable via RPA.
• Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Wik2
  1. An excellent example of being hamstrung by slow process, and of excessive legalism.
  2. Wik had clearly having a negative impact on the project, by offending so many over such small matters. At the same time, he was a fantastically prolific contributor. Since part of the case against him was made by the kind of POV vandals that he so successfully helped deter from editing WP, the AC should have acted on the separate case against Cantus first, with a quick rebuff to Cantus, before acting on Wik2.
  3. As for a remedy for Wik, I think again that giving all admins wider leeway in how they exercise case-by-case judgment would have been better than decreeing some punishment for things already past. Allowing any minor infraction to be grounds for a short (two-hour?) ban -- say, any revert of a non-anon user without comments on the relevant article or user Talk: page -- might have been more appropriate.
• Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Paul Vogel
• Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Mav v. 168
  1. By the time this finally came to arbitration, it was too late for the AC to have responded appropriately. The best they could have done was to have recognized 168's value to the project, and without extracting an apology from mav, quickly issued a very positive set of neutral statements (rather than the ambivalent set of neutral statements they eventually released), while 168 was in the mood for reconciliation. Then mav and 168 might have reconciled in private.
  2. The time for the AC to have acted is noted in the presentation of the case:

     On February 14 [after temporarily desysopping 168...] ... Tim Starling requested review of his action by either Jimbo or the arbitration committee and advice on "whether it should be permanent? Or if not, what the term should be?"

  3. At this point, a fast-moving AC might have responded (recognizing that this would have to be temporary, if 168 were to be retained as a contributor) with some reasonable suggestion; as it had been demonstrated that 168 could be desysopped, it would have been a good time for someone other than TimStarling to have had a friendly discussion with him about coping with WikiStress and editors who try to push one's buttons. Mediators and AMA members might have been particularly useful here.

• Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/JRR Trollkien
• Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Cantus
• Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/ChrisO and Levzur

Thanks very much. Snowspinner 17:43, Aug 2, 2004 (UTC)

I wish you the best of luck in this month's Arbitration Committee election. May the best Wikipedian win! --Merovingian Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)

AC comments

even if you wren't sitting here twisting my arm, I'm sure you'd make a good arbitration comissar.  :-) (Zvikit)

I feel I'm not active enough on En:... Aliter

I voted at a time disadvantageous to you! Is it possible to vote a second time? --Jerzy (see above. --Ed.)

I've been a user for less than three months! -- Simonides

Thanks for participating in the ArbCom elections. Hatchet buried. Danny 00:47, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Any time. I'm giving your apology a special place right here:

[13|20:46] <dannyisme> then i apologize with all my soul for failing to overlook 
your [orthographically correct description] behavior regarding the lowly comma

Raul654 has stated that the FAD chooses Wikipedia:Tomorrow's featured article. Perhaps Zocky could aid here. Regards, Ancheta Wis 15:29, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Look, followers!

The all-Sj* article history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Scansoft&action=history

(: Are you from Massachusetts? +sj+ 04:52, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It was only a matter of time before the two Sj*s collided :) And no, I am not from Massachusetts; I am from Cornwall, perhaps the sublimest place on the planet... Sjc 07:19, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions...

The reason I'm treating each model separately is so that if I or someone else wants to add more information, photos, drawings, etc. on a specific model, it can be done without causing undue confusion. If all of the models are listed and described on the same page, I'm afraid things will eventually get too cluttered. The articles on the newer models (Dash-8 and Dash-9 series, etc.) will be a bit more detailed as I have better information on them, as well as personal observations.

I've been kind of burned out on life in general, just taking it easy. I haven't had any sort of anti-Wikipedia fit or anything, just didn't have the energy to do anything with it. Maybe someday I'll have the time/energy to do some more.... Thanks for saying hi... Noel 00:30, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

PS: I'm sure you'll be amused to hear that when I looked at your user page (curious), my head started to emit springs and gears. I'm a very straightfoward sort of person (see mine)... Noel 07:29, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

PPS: I was wandering around some dusty back alleys, and came across this:

in a flurry of preverts, Ril was inverted and cast from the cast of _Heavy En:_ into an archaeo-social list of helpful flames.

Very funny! Noel 02:57, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I replied on my talk-page :-) Fantasy 容 13:51, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Did you see my last comment/question on my talk-page? Fantasy 容 06:01, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply :-) Fantasy 容 07:04, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Diffs of amusement: :

Hi, FYI: I've just done a major rewrite of Attalus I, since you were a contributer to that page, I though you might like to know ;-) Paul August Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Paul... wow, you certainly did a job on Attalus. There's nothing better than seeing a stub on a subject one loves expanded into a beautiful article. Thanks also for your work on Philetaerus and Eumenes I; there are many aspects of the family history I didn't know. +sj+

Would you please sanction user:Corax who abuses Talk:North American Man-Boy Love Association to fill it with propaganda about the harmlessness of child abuse, accuses me of sexual hysteria, and asks me to see a therapist. Get-back-world-respect 13:13, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've started cleaning up content related to pedophilia. I have to say that I wish you took a less combative stance in some of these disputes; often, the only real progress comes through aggressively making articles better, not through arguing about what content should be there. I hope we can keep the resulting debates about content focused on building a good encyclopedia - for instance, merging articles that cry out to be merged. +sj+ 19:47, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, but I disagree. Aggressively making articles "better" is exactly what pedohilia activists pretend to do. If it is not clear from discussion that a clear majority opposes this, we cannot even show them that this is unwanted. Plus, some of them use all their time to work on these articles. Reverting next to everything they do is so time consuming that no one can be expected to do it. The conflicts have rather calmed down here, except for North American Man-Boy Love Association, as far as I can see. In the German version they are ongoing, and I am rather sure that they will restart here as well if we do not find a sustainable solution. Get-back-world-respect 22:26, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I notice that you elected to try and save two articles Finlandia co-op and Watermyn, despite a significant majority of votes being in favour of their deletion. I am wondering thus if you would be interested in commenting at the proposed poll at Wikipedia:VfD decisions not backed by current policies/poll. - SimonP 17:17, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the warm welcome. I was wondering, is there some kind of forum or bulletin board in Wikipedia?

Dear Sj,

please contact me specifying of WikiMoney you require for my victory in the currently running Danny's contest.

Yours, [[User:Solitude|Solitude\^talk]] 08:47, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)

I have drafted a proposal for a new voluntary association on Wikipedia (joining groups like the Wikipedia:The Business and Economics Forum and the Wikipedia:Harmonious editing club) to promote discussion of a sort of system of expert review on Wiki. Please take a look and add your ideas. 172 08:00, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one... defend it. I suggest you cite sources. Good luck. --L33tminion Nov 19, 2004

You created this template quite some time ago. It's being considered for deletion, and I'm wondering if you'd agree, since it's not being used. We do have a more generic Template:Move to Wikibooks that is much more commonly used. -- Netoholic @ 16:55, 2004 Nov 19 (UTC)

Hey, you left a note saying that your contributions are CC-by-sa (which version(s)? 1.0? 2.0? Both?) and sometimes public domain. Could you add a proper user namespace template to your user page or User:Sj/Copyrights so we have a permanent record of your wishes? Thanks. -- Ram-Man (comment| talk) 19:25, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

I have. 2.0. Now if only I can find it...

Over 90% of people asked have agreed. For More Information:

• Multi-Licensing FAQ - Lots of questions answered
• Multi-Licensing Guide
• Free the Rambot Articles Project

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the "{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}" template into their user page, but there are other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:

Ram-Man

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ACopyrights&diff=0&oldid=8741098

"-obfuscatory sentence" (link added)? How is the sentence confusing?

"The goal of Wikipedia is to create an information source in an encyclopedia format that is freely available."

Brianjd 08:26, 2004 Dec 24 (UTC)

Hi. We seem to have hit a conflict rearranging The Battery. I would suggest that The Battery is not worthy of a disambiguation. I think almost everyone would associate The Battery with Manhatten. There was already a reference to the Charleston park there. I think it would be better to have The Battery go straight to the Manhatten version. Suppose we discuss this at Talk:Battery Park? DJ Clayworth 16:02, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

AMA Member Advocate,

There's a poll currently in the AMA Homepage about making a new AMA Coordinator election... see AMA Homepage talk page. Cheers, --Neigel von Teighen 4 Jan 2005

...

As AMA Coordinator I am requesting that suggestions be placed on Wikipedia:AMA Membership Meeting plans... — © 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

...

The first AMA Membership meeting will be held on Sunday January 23, 2005 at 19:00 UTC on freenode IRC channel #AMA. 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

...

You may view the log of the first meeting on the following two pages: Wikipedia:AMA IRC Meeting log (1-23-05) (first hour) and Wikipedia:AMA IRC Meeting log (1-23-05) Pt II (remainder of meeting). See also Wikipedia:AMA Meeting (suggested topics).

...

"The second AMA Membership meeting will be held on Sunday January 30 2005 at 19:00 UTC on freenode IRC channel #AMA. Please submit:

Wikipedia:AMA Coordinator/January 2005 Survey Wikipedia:AMA IRC Meeting log (1-30-05). Wikipedia:AMA Meeting (suggested topics). Thank you, your Coordinator.

Since you're listed on the Wikimedia Press Team, I wanted to let you know (though you may already be aware) that we're working on a 1,000,000-article press release. I'm hoping to get the press release written by 7 September, then allow a week for translation, as we should reach the milestone mid-September. Right now we're working at Wikimedia press releases/One million Wikipedia articles if you want to join us. Any assistance is greatly appreciated. --Michael Snow 22:57, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, and your efforts to coordinate translations generally. I don't mind at all if people get a jump on translation, I just want to be sure that they do update translations to the final version. I will try and bring it to a final version soon, so that the translators can finish their work without worrying about last-minute changes. --Michael Snow 02:37, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I have no problem with the creation of a separate British English version of the press release, although Chameleon could have done a better job of making it clear that he had left the original intact, instead of redirecting everyone to the "translated" version. I was fooled when I first went there, and obviously so were others. As for substantive changes to the text, in my opinion it should stay frozen. There are already people saying the press release is too long, and frankly they're right. It's inevitable that in a project like this, some people will have good ideas that there just isn't space to include, and we can't allow everyone who lobbies for a particular sentence to get their way. So I'm not thrilled about shoehorning stuff in after the writing part was supposed to be finished. I would prefer to let the translators do their work and have people start to focus on where to send the press release, instead of scribbling madly away on their exams after time has already been called. --Michael Snow 06:02, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Bonjour Sj,

Il s'agit de monter en français un dossier transparent à l'intention des donateurs éventuels. Les articles en. sont énumérés ici :

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipédia:Wikipédia_et_l%27argent

Cependant, rien ne presse. Merci de me proposer ton aide. Roby 10:08, 2004 Sep 9 (UTC)

Merci pour ton envoi (newsletter). Je lis et corrige s'il y a lieu. Je m'en occupe immédiatement et te rappelle dans une heure ou deux. Roby 06:49, 2004 Sep 19 (UTC)

No wait, that's not right. Transient Trouble! No, that's not it either. Translation Trouble. Yes, that's it: I don't know whether you had anything to do with that system-wide notice, this time. But having seen the annoucement, this time I didn't just start translating just to find the translation would not be used. No, sir, I first checked to see whether Fy: was on the list. No, it wasn't. OK, so no source text, no place to put the result, we'll have to assume we won't be bothered this time. Well ... . Apparently the one throwing an English message at Fy: used a different list. Apparently, this translation process still doesn't function properly. Aliter 20:10, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You asked me to clarify what list I talked about since you knew only about m:Translation_requests/Fund-Sep. Exactly, that's the one. And you told me that that list was, of course, not comprehensible. So in what way would the individual wikipedian know this course? Wouldn't anyone not closely tied to the events assume that if a list was used to organise the actions of those involved, everybody involved would be on that list? Anyway, not all that important. Just what gets written when suddenly all the pages in a wikipedia get a header in some foreign language. Aliter 18:09, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Good work on the Attalus I article, esp. with the comments. Hopefully people will see that the ability to turn off fotenotes, for what ever reason, is what should be worked towards instead of deleting fact checking work.

Please get people interested in the project, and feel free for you or other people to massively edit the project page if you think you can improve it. If you know some coders that can help, please let them know :). --ShaunMacPherson 04:16, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hola Sj. Lee por favor nah:User talk:Piolinfax#Main Page como eres el único administrador tendrás que hacerlo tú. Gracias Guillermo 08:01, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Gracias por el aviso, Guillermo. +sj+

Gracias por el arreglo. Guillermo

hey there just wanted to invite you to be a member of the Department of Fun as i saw you on a linked page we have as a judge, feel free to add your sig./timestamp in the members section. --Larsie 17:33, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your support last month of WOAS, which I have finally moved out of user-space. --Zigger 03:24, 2004 Oct 31 (UTC)

NYC: Thanks for noting the NYC meetup... Andrevan | maybe. don't always work a standard 9-5. Dante Alighieri... just realized The Incredibles premieres tonight, so that's where I'm headed after work.  ;) another date though... Dante. Nov 6. — NYC: Where is Argosy? PZFUN 00:16, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC) — NYC: Sure, that works for me. I don't know how long I can stay, but I'll at least make an appearance! And 2 pm is fine. I'm a late riser so 2 pm is fine. Any earlier and I might not be awake! PZFUN 00:34, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC) — Hi. Got your message and read the wrap up. Sounded like fun. Sorry I couldn't make it. --Pdurbin 22:46, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Bay Area: What time? East Bay's User:Kukkurovaca (don't know any of the other locals).

Boston II

I don't know exactly how I can help. Should there be an agenda? Should we hand out action items? Or just get together and have an enjoyable afternoon, like the last Boston (Cambridge) meetup? Ortolan88 02:12, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hi there. I've never been to a wikimeet before, but I might be able to make the Boston one. Since I'm a minor, getting my parents to let me go will be like pulling teeth...except much harder :). I wanted to know what is expected to happen in this wikimeet before I attempt this monumental task. What mood do you anticipate this wikimeet to be like? Do I need to bring anything with me? What (if anything) is going to be accomplished? Thanks in advance. I tried to find out on IRC, but I was told that it differs greatly between each wikimeet, and since you were in the last Boston wikimeet, I felt you were the best person to ask :). -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee|✍]] 02:54, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the personal invitation. I simply couldn't get out of my other obligations this weekend, but sometime in December sounds really good. Also, let's form an agenda; I could help with that. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 15:04, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

Got your message about next weekend - I like to plan a little farther in advance than that. Maybe some time in December or January? (Just not during the IAP Mystery Hunt.) DenisMoskowitz 16:51, 2004 Nov 22 (UTC)

I'll personally be busy on the 5th, but I'm not required - I can come to the next one or something. (The more notice, the more likely I'll make it.) DenisMoskowitz 20:08, 2004 Nov 22 (UTC)

NYC: *laughs* I'll be there! - UtherSRG 13:11, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC) — NYC: I was wondering if a place had been decided for the next New York meetup. I'm still ticked off at myself that I wasn't able to get to the last one, so I'll be coming to this one, come hell or high water! PZFUN 17:56, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC) — Coming to the NYC meetup scheduled for Sunday, December 12?

Hello. I miss you terribly Sj. I hope my internet connexion will be restored end of next week :-( I need to come back to daily quiet activities. Not ones where I am called a vandal :-(

Hope you are well SweetLittleFluffyThing 18:09, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hey, I got your message about creating a survey. The thing is that I've already asked some 500 users about whether they'd give permission to multi-license their contributions. And in at least one of those cases I managed to get a user who is no longer editing here anymore. Because this is such a large scale thing, I really need to ask everyone and a survey will not exactly serve our purpose here. It is not enough to ask "Do you multi-license?". Based on responses I could calculate the percentages of who feels what. About 10% opt out, but most of those are very nice about it. But I'd say about 1% of people asked get upset at the fact that I asked and say something (semi-)nasty back to me. The rest agree to multi-license in either PD or CC-by-sa, mostly for the latter. Of those people, about 20% will only go for U.S. states/cities/counties at this time. I've already got the rambot adding the notices to people's pages, after I did the first 350 by hand. Of course I don't mind having a question in a survey about it. It might be nice to know how popular the idea of a move to CC-by-sa is, but so far I've not wanted to bring up the question because it is so controversial. You can keep me apprised of the situation with the survey, but I'm not sure how much I can put in. It might be nice to ask a few multi-licensing questions anyway, just to feel the water. – Ram-Man ^{(comment) (talk)}[[]] 13:01, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

Let me know when you have a draft of your survey. Maybe we need some questions like "Would you consider multi-licensing to CC-by-sa" (or maybe something less specific or with more options). And also: "If yes to the previous question, would you consider at some point agreeing to change Wikipedia's license to another license (such as CC-by-sa)?" Of course if you do the latter, be prepared for the nuclear fallout that the ensuing controversy will cause. – Ram-Man ^{(comment) (talk)}[[]] 14:46, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject: JesseW 23:27, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

/me thinks you might get a kick out of this and maybe that. Just a hunch. May be wrong. Very. Never mind. It's late, even on your side of the ocean. Cheers. notafish }<';> 05:34, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• I am proud of this notafish }<';> 16:42, 1 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Umm, I read someone's opinion on the rate of increase of article size, did not agree with the expressed opinion, and figured a graph and, indeed, an article would be a good thing. I'll doubtless update the graph sometime around the christmas break; I don't often update it since the trend is, more or less, no change. best wishes --Tagishsimon (talk)

Hi Sj, Cormaggio here - having just found 'Wikidemia' today, am wondering what your involvement with the project is, ie. whether active or just interested? Have added a link to a page with my own questionnaire which was a tentative step into getting people's opinions - I see your involved perspective would be of help to the project, and possibly to my own inquiry (for my M.Ed). Basically, I can see these projects bouncing off eachother, if not conjoining to an extent. Talk to me, or email me if you prefer (through user page). Cheers Cormaggio 01:29, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

See recent updates.

I give you a Barnstar for your good editorship on Quarto and your fine organization of translators. --Aphaea 09:11, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Would you be offended if your "Whole Earth Catalog" were deleted from Wikisource? The problem with it is that it is encylopedic. :-) While this would be a perfectly good stub in Wikipedia, I don't see it going anywhere on Wikisource. It would be an excellent introduction IF we were going to carry material from the Catalogs in Wikisource but I presume that very little, if any, of this material could be included without infringing copyright. Eclecticology 04:54, 2005 Jan 3 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. Now I know that more than that stub is planned. I don't know if page images are the best way to go, but I'll wait until a few are up before I make further comments. Eclecticology 17:16, 2005 Jan 4 (UTC)

I've noticed that you've begun (what I'm going to assume) is a complete List of Young Global Leaders. This leads me to a few questions:

• Why the odd, non-standard formatting?
  • What is the standard?
    • You're reading it. As opposed to:

Making a list by indenting a space.
This renders as an ugly monospaced font.
Enclosed within a box.

• What is the value of a yearly list of a few hundred names?
  • Note the wikification.
    • Note the pointless wikification. Of the 97 listings you've so far posted, only 10 individuals have active links (at least half of whom are as stubs), not to mention only 31 companies have links. So the value of duplicating in whole a 237-item list just to add red links is, at best, minimal.
• Why no explanation of the list at the top of the list?
  • It has one.
    • It does now, I grant.
• Why have a list of members/honorees of an organization that doesn't even have an article about itself?
  • It has one.
    • Okay, I missed that, though I note it's only nine minutes older than this list.

--Calton 20:54, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) Updated comments by Calton 01:23, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)