User talk:ScaryT

Hello ScaryT, and Welcome to Wikipedia!

Scary, how about giving us a gender-neutral description. Your recent edit uses pronoun "he". I was in Mosul in 2004 and lots of female soldiers were there too. Also, please consider joining the WP:WikiProject Military history. – S. Rich (talk) 03:20, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Scary, I'll reply here to your comments on my talk page. (I want to make sure you see it.) First, I don't think you made any offensive remarks. Take a look at the links on that welcome message I posted and you'll learn more about how Wikipedia works. It is both a project and a community. We are happy to have you join us. (You've done well in offering the apology, even if it was not needed.) Second, thank your Dad for his service on my behalf. I've rubbed elbows with a few SEALs over the years and they have my deepest respect. You are a lucky kid to have such a hero as a father. Third, I hope you enjoy your editing at Wikipedia. It is amazing to see how much drama can develop over these edits, and if you don't get too wrapped up in "being right" you will see how all of us, regulars and newbies alike, have created a remarkable resource. All of those editors in the Wikipedia Military History Project will be quite happy to give you assistance whenever you like. (And you can ask me questions too.) Best regards and happy editing. – S. Rich (talk) 04:32, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

On some service ribbons, the second award is indicated by the first use of a bronze 3/16" star (for example, the National Defense Service Medal). For some others, the first award includes a bronze 3/16" star, and every subsequent award gets a another star thereafter. This is the case with the Iraq Campaign Medal; as a result, an individual should wear a star on the ribbon even if they were only present for a single campaign phase. Another way of putting it is that for every campaign phase the individual participated in, they will wear a star for that phase. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 00:35, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My father served in Iraq for one tour and does not wear any devices on his ribbon or medal, he agrees with me on this subject. I am not trying to be disrespectful, but you are incorrect on this matter. a 3/16" star represents a second award, not a first. Regards, ScaryT

I see. I can appreciate that you're trying to be respectful here. Well, I've been in the service for 26+ years and have personally deployed to Iraq more than once with the Army. For some ribbons, the first award comes with a 3/16" star, and for some others, you don't start adding them until the second and subsequent awards. The former ones are known as campaign medals, and you get a star for each campaign phase that you're there (Iraq Campaign Medal, Afghanistan Campaign Medal, etc). The latter ones are medals like the National Defense Service Medal. You can read up on these medals and the specifics by looking at Army Regulation 600-8-22, Military Awards, a copy of which you can download here. If you've like to look at something much more condensed and succinct, you can look at an FAQ put on out on the Iraq Campaign Medal at the US Army Human Resources Command website here. On that page, scroll down to the question and answer section to "Does a Soldier have at least one Bronze Service Star (BSS) if he/she has an ICM or ACM?" and you'll find this answer: "Yes, Soldiers who earn the ICM or ACM will wear at least one BSS." If you have any further questions on this, feel free to ask them. In the interim, tell your father that he is eligible to add a single 3/16" bronze service star to the Iraq Campaign Medal ribbon on his Army Service Uniform, and that you found this out from a fellow service member who pointed out those links to you. Sound good? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 01:06, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Scary, Wikipedia follows the pillar of verifiability. So we can't go to your Dad, or Azure, or me and ask how many stars do you wear on the uniform? We need a reliable source for the information that anyone can access. That's why Azure has given you the AR 600-8-22. Now maybe the Navy has regulations that say something different. That would be odd because the regs are the regs for this award which applies to all services. But if you found something different, then you could post it on the article. Best regards ~~~~ – S. Rich (talk) 14:55, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ah... there is more to the story here then.  :) I didn't realize ScaryT's father was actually in the Navy (rather than the Army) until reading your comment about the Navy here and subsequently following the conversation to your Talk Page and seeing that he was there with the SEALS in 08'-09'. Although the Department of Defense authorizes the 3/16" inch star on the ICM in DoD Manual 1348.33, Volume 3 (dated November 23, 2010), the services implement the wear of the medal differently. The applicable Navy counterpart to the Army's AR 600-8-22 is Secretary of the Navy Instruction (SECNAVINST) 1650.1H, the most recent version of which is dated August 22, 2006 (note: it's an 8+ MB PDF file, so it takes awhile to come up in your browser). The ICM is addressed on pages 4-26 and 4-27. While the Army awards stars for each campaign, the Navy does not; paragraph 13c says that "There will be no subsequent awards of the ICM; therefore, service stars are not authorized." So, unless the Navy decides to change the instruction later (always a possibility), Naval personnel do not wear any 3/16" inch stars on the ribbon, and ScaryT's father is already wearing the ribbon correctly. What a difference the service department can make in situations like this, yes? It's probably worth making a slight adjustment to the article to clarify this point going forward, as it's easily overlooked and has obviously caused confusion already. As an aside, for ScaryT, I'd just like to echo Srich's point that verifiability and reliable sources (read those links) are critical here at Wikipedia, and at the end of the day it's what those sources say (not us editors, with our personal experiences) that governs how articles are written and what Wikipedia says. Without those policies and guidelines, we'd never be able to sort these discrepancies out and resolve the differences.  :) Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 16:49, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

UPDATE: I've made the changes, and added in source citations for USA, USN, USAF, USMC, and USCG. Have a look... AzureCitizen (talk) 17:16, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Navy and Marines award service stars, they just award them for multiple deployments. If my father had gone over again he would have recieved one 3/16" inch BSS. He has Achievement and Commendation Mdeals with one 5/16" gold star on each representing two awards, so we both figured the same regs would apply to all services. Coming from a traditionally Navy family, it is strange you are allowed to wear a service star on your ribbon if you only were deployed once. You would think the 5 branches would have the same regs.— Preceding unsigned comment added by ScaryT (talk • contribs)

Unfortunately, the services do not always do it the same way. Did you actually click on the link above and look at the Navy regulation? Page 4-27 says no stars are authorized for the Iraq Campaign Medal for Navy personnel. When I updated the article, I specifically pointed the readers to that regulation as the citation for the statement in the article "sailors do not wear service stars on the service ribbon." I see that you've now changed it again to say that they wear service stars for multiple tours. If that change is to stand, it must be accompanied with a more recent citation showing that there was a change in the rules. So what is it that you're "going off of", so to speak, in making this change? AzureCitizen (talk) 21:21, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I found this item on the net about Service Stars in the Navy for the ACM and the ICM.

"The campaign stars will recognize a service member's participation in the various campaigns associated with Operation Enduring Freedom or Operation Iraqi Freedom on the ACM and ICM," said Wilson. "This NAVADMIN provides implementing guidance for the U.S. Navy."

Individuals who meet the eligibility criteria for the ACM or ICM shall wear on campaign star on the suspension ribbon of the medal, and on the ribbon bar in recognition of their participation in the campaign phase of which the medal was awarded. Therefore, the ACM and ICM will always be awarded at least one campaign star.

An additional campaign star shall be worn for each one or more days or participation in each designated campaign phase. Only one star is authorized for each phase, regardless of the number of deployments made during any designated phase.

Articseahorse (talk) 23:56, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ah ha... good deal, Articseahorse! So the Navy modified the rule from SECNAVINST 1650.1H, and the end result is parity across the services, with every service member wearing one star for each campaign they were present, with a minimum of at least one if they were awarded the medal. We've now come full circle in this discussion and are back where we started, except we've got a definitive answer now with the relevant citations for all branches. AzureCitizen (talk) 00:09, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So what you're saying is, after 20 odd years in the Navy, my father and both brothers are not wearing their uniform correctly?ScaryT (talk) 22:21, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), that's correct. It's no big deal, this sort of thing happens all the time and the regulations can get confusing. The primary source of the confusion herein has been that for some medals, devices like 5/16 inch stars (USN/USMC/USCG) and oak leaf clusters (USA/USAF) are added one at a time starting with the second award, along with medals like the POW Medal, National Defense Service Medal, Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal, etc. working the same way by adding a first 3/16" service star for the second award. Campaign medals, however, award 3/16" service stars based on the number of campaign phases the member has been in (and in that respect, they're actually called "campaign stars" in the DOD Manual). When I said "fortunately" above, I say that because I'd rather accidentally wear a ribbon without a device I was supposed to have for many years, rather than wear a ribbon with a device I was actually not authorized to wear and then discover that years later. In keeping with the positive, show your father and brothers this Navy Administrative Message and this DOD Press Release, and they'll probably thank you for it. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 23:49, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And that ust goes to shoe how stubborn and hard headed a Missouri redneck can be...wow, I will have to relay this information. Thank you fellas.ScaryT (talk) 03:07, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. You could also click on the signature button or located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when they said it. Thank you. – S. Rich (talk) 21:07, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

will do ScaryT (talk) 21:08, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]