User talk:Fram/Archive 1

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

A request for mediation has been filed with the Mediation Committee that lists you as a party. The Mediation Committee requires that all parties listed in a mediation must be notified of the mediation. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Gotem, and indicate whether you agree or refuse to mediate. If you are unfamiliar with mediation, please refer to Wikipedia:Mediation. There are only seven days for everyone to agree, so please check as soon as possible.

Hi! I'm a new contributor, mainly interested in European comics, but you may find me all over the place :-) I try to be factually correct (obviously), but as English isn't my mother tongue, you can probably expect some grammatical errors and weird sentences. I'ld be glad if those (and any other errors) got corrected of course. Fram 07:40, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

		An Award
		For your contributions to the CotW focusing on Girl in September, 2005, I, Mamawrites, award you, Fram, this THANK YOU.

Welcome!

Hello, Fram/Archive 1, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  Julien Tuerlinckx 14:28, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi just wanted to let you know that some articles were written far ago and such articles deserve a bit of respect, especially those concerning disputes like the supposed Dutch-French dispute in Belgium... So we would be happy to see you contributing in such articles but be careful that what you remove is really superfluous.

Furthermore, I did add the hockey clubs, so I'll put them back as I see it as part of the Belgian life but I admit it is no crucial info. Thanx for your understanding and don't blame me for my "weird sentences" like you said. Happy edits, Julien Tuerlinckx 14:28, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi Fram, I saw the text you reverted on this article. There is indeed intersting content. I asked User:Mjolnir1984, who I suppose has written it to reformat it and spread it on the right pages. He's trying to add his content since a month ago, without real success. If this content is back again, I propose to not revert it but to help him around with it. Lvr 14:28, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

N.a.v. je wijziging op Luchteren... Als ik het heb over bekende straten is dit uiteraard naar Luchterense of Drongense maatstaven, dat spreekt voor zich. Belgian man 18:31, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi! Category:Angoulême International Comics Festival has too many stubs that can never be expanded. Stubs can attract vandalism. Are you sure all those articles are notable? Also, if they are, why not merge them into five or ten longer articles? Cheers, --unforgettableid | talk to me 13:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I think one of the problems is that I often forget to remove the 'stub' indication when an article is finished (although still short).

I compared the Angoulême articles to the Grammy articles, and noticed that they are fairly similar: some of the categories are large, with many notable artists, and a long history, while other are very short, like the Grammy Award for Best Hawaiian Music Album, and/or finished, like the Grammy Award for Best Jazz Fusion Performance.

As the Angoulême awards are in their field (European comics) equally important as the Grammies are for (American) music, I think it is logical to have a similar structure. I had already combined some awards with similar names or targets, and probable some others that are now divided could be combined as well, but as a whole, I feel they are necessary.

The French Wikipedia has taken another approach, with one article for every year the festival is held (i.e. 33 articles and counting), plus separate articles for many major awards (I count at least 16 of those). As I felt that this was a bit too much, I only made articles for the awards.

I think that the information given in those articles should at least be kept, but if you have ideas how best to merge some of the awards without losing the overview, you're more than welcome to either present the ideas or make the new (merged) articles. I feel it would be a pity to delete any info though.

By the way, I'm now up to 1989 in my scanning of the awards presented, and I have no idea how many more award categories I'll have to add. I think I have most, but I know of at least 4 more to come.

Fram 13:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I have created an article (Media awards) that covers four previous awards and two I still had to add, and have created redirects from the four previous awards (perhaps they can be deleted, I don't know). This slightly decreases the number of articles and stubs in the category. I hope this is a first step to what you had in mind? There are probably a few others I can give the same treatment, but there will probably be a few others I still have to add, so no promises as to how many articles will stay in the end... Fram 15:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Good idea this 'Famous inhabitants' section for 'Mechelen', Fram. Perhaps I'll mention Jef Denyn elsewhere in the article. There are a few more: Josephine Leemans-Verbustel, better known as the singer Jo Leemans, Marc Uytterhoeven and abouth 20% or so of the people that we knew to work at or with the single official Flemish TV (historically NIR/BRT/VRT) in the last 50 years (journalists, presenters, actors of the Mechels Miniatuurtheater [e.g. the once so popular series "De collega's"],...). A number of famous national politicians like Antoon Spinoy (after whom the Cultural Centre in Mechelen is named), Jef Ramaekers, Jos De Saeger, the first of the Flemish government who let himself be called minister-president: Luc Van den Brande,... All the archbishops since the 16th century (this should be easy: you might put the list in an article and link to it - I'm not too sure about Mercier though: he preferred to stay closer to the royal family and thus split the title of Mechelen to Mechelen-Brussels; still only Mechelen can have had his official address). The list of historical figures will get longer too, and it includes a few famous catholic missionaries, in fact many because the city housed the Seminary where so many lived during their education to priesthood. If you really want to do this, I wish you good luck and a lot of patience; start by setting precise delimiters (for instance: reasonably well known at least in the whole Region of Flanders and/or a standard of importance for the more specific branches, mentioning exclusion of seminarists and the military in one of the three former caserns - especially since all Belgian military administrative personnel trainees stayed in one - who may have had an official address elsewhere) - the result would certainly interest me. In case you might find the job a bit bigger than expected, I would suggest completely removing the section so as not to hurt people's feelings for being left out, and to avoid disputes with their fans. You made a good start: I was rather surprised about a few names; please, prove that it can be done. -- 83.182.60.42 2006-05-29 21:45 (UTC)

P.S. Should you continue and come across good stuff, check whether the person's current Wikipedia article can use the extra information or create the person's article - don't let fine work get lost. -- 83.182.60.42 2006-05-29 21:59 (UTC)

Thanks! I have started with those people that have a Wikipedia article (on the English language Wikipedia, that is) where it is mentioned that they lived (were born, died, ...) in Mechelen. I did indeed leave out those people that studied in Mechelen, and I left out a few that I thought weren't famous enough for an international encyclopedia. I probably should have included Jef Denyn though.

I'm just doing this for all Flemish villages and cities (and probably the Wallon ones and the Dutch ones afterwards): check out if there are any Wikipedia articles that mention an inhabitant of the village, and if they are reasonably well known, I include them as "famous inhabitants". I will try to do this on a regular basis, to catch the additions, but I'll not try to find "missing" (from the encyclopedia) persons normally. I have finished West and East Flanders and Antwerp now, and will start on Limburg next.

And indeed, there is a risk that some people will feel left out, but that is always a tough task, drawing a line. I don't mind at all if people would add their own favourites, as long as they are reasonably notable (i.e. may be known outside Flanders at least). Fram 07:15, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok , no problem. You might like the information available at WP:CITET as a help. Regards :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 07:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for doing the merge I suggested. I had not had the time to do it myself. RayGates 00:40, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

C'mon Fram, don't tell me YOU deleted the Snowspinner article. It wasn't vandalism, it was being bold, everything can be verified. Maybe when snowspinner gets old and dies then the next generation will make an article for Phil and when people like you come to delete it, they'll warn YOU with a vandalism notice. ^_^ --Dont even try to hide the truth 10:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I have not deleted that article, is was deleted already when I tried to access it. I have warned you because you had removed a tag from a page that was under discussion. Fram 10:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm.. OK. Which article are you talking about? --Dont even try to hide the truth 10:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok I figured it out. The nominations for deletion are in bad faith and some editors are getting all their friends to vote delete and of course only I and maybe 2 other people will vote keep because everyone else is oblivious. The basis for deletion is that the documents are not federal, this is bad faith. So I changed the liscensing to indicate "state" government. --Dont even try to hide the truth 10:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Why are you filing a report without even investigating? You know some admin might come along and say, I feel like banning someone and then just ban me just because you accuse me of vandalism. --Dont even try to hide the truth 10:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you know who deleted it? --Dont even try to hide the truth 10:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

X is good at chess is not an assertion of notability, because even if true, gails WP:BIO. X is a famous architect, X is a sculptor whose works are displayed in XYZ galleries are both valid assertions. Some process would be required. Re-read WP:CSD and WP:DVAIN carefully: "Only those articles where there is no remotely plausible assertion of notability should be considered for Wikipedia:Speedy deletion." - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 15:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

In response to your statement on Crazy Russian's talk page: It seems you have some knowledge about the City/Town/Hamlet/Vicinity of Gotem,Belgium. Then why not put this knowledge to use and add it to the article? You say it is nonsense, but you yourself admit this town does exist. Furthermore, as you pointed out it IS in the dutch wikipedia, then why shouldnt it be here? And if you think some of my information is nonsense, feel free to edit it. I have stated this many times.--The Raven 22:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

In response to your statement : Yes you are right, these towns (rural) lack significant urban development, thats why the population figure is taken within a certain radius (as you can see from the website, of course). Perhaps the original version of the article gave a mistaken impression of the population density near Gotem, but I believe this has been now corrected. Indeed, I see that Charlesxavier has added some more information that makes Gotem quite a notable hamlet (at least the one in Limburg). However, I'm afraid I don't understand your position: you come across an article, you think its nonsense, you do some research and you find out that some of the infromation on the article is (in your opinion) inaccurate. Then you proceed to speedy-delete the page and later AfD instead of just correcting the information. Why do such a thing? Just edit the damn page so its correct and be done with it.--The Raven 21:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for acknowledging at least part of your errors, although I feel that you still try to pretend that you did something good when you only produced rubbish ealier. I speedy deleted (or rather proposed them for it, I can't delete anything) them when they were nonsense articles. I AfD'ed when they contained a minimum of verifiable content, and a lot of rubbish otherwise. Only then have you and your buddies started upgrading the article, removing all the errors I pointed out. Gotem can stay, perhaps, although I still don't see why it can't be just included as a section in the Borgloon article. Polfbroekstraat, Eiland, and Oordegemsestraat, and the Project, are still complete nonsense, and the first three have no chance of becoming anything else. As for the population numbers and the website: as you have seen on the Gotem discussion, but still seem to ignore: this is pure rubbish. When you have a small village near a larger city, you don't include the population numbers of that city into the population of your village, and you don't claim that some hamlet like Eiland is in fact one of the largest cities of East Flanders. This is plain and simple bullshit. Fram 21:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Satellite data shows that Gotem, which we define as 50° 47' 60" N, 5° 17' 60" E and the area 7km around it, does not include any visible areas of dense population (which would be denoted by a solid yellow, as in your Glenwood Heights example). See my arguments here I acknowledge that Fallingrain is imperfect in certain cases, but that it is actually quite useful in this case. I have no position on Polfbroekstraat, Eiland, or Oordegemsestraat (doesn't 'straat' mean street?). My friends did not enlist my support simply because I am their friend... they know that I am a declared defender of Gotem, I simply want to help preserve it. How did you come across the Gotem page anyway??? --Charlesxavier 21:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Look at the scale of that map. Borgloon is 3 km away, Sint-Truiden is 9 km, etcetera. As you can see here (click on the map to get a larger area), Gotem is the smallest village, adn it is surrounded very close by larger ones liek Hoepertingen and Wellen. Those make up the bulk of the 20,000 inhabitants and are the true population centres: Gotem is a speck of a few streets next to the larger Borgloon. So Fallingrain is not useful in this case (what did you base that one), as once again it gives a very small village in the neighbourhood of larger ones. Please, I may be harsh out of frustration, but I am not the one making things up here, your friends are (and to a larger extent were). Fram 22:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Fram, please read what I wrote at the talk page of Polfbroekstraat. Something about Eiland there as well. This guy is creating a parallel universe - I suppose one day he will come out and claim that Wikipedia is full of nonsense.User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy--pgp 17:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, many thanks for your explanation.

Four of the articles you named were deleted by me (two as obvious nonsense), however it would seem that all except Oordegemsestraat have been recreated. While I agree that at least some of the articles are hoaxes, I will stay out of the debate at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gotem for now. Also, I won't speedy delete the articles again (it would seem that they would only be recreated anyway), as rather than speedying twice when some editors seem to be expressing concern, I think it's best if the issue is settled via AfD. This may or may not require nominating all the articles for deletion; feel free to tag them if you wish – Gurch 18:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Fram, I finally finished the deletion article for Polfbroekstraat. Will you do Eiland? As you probably know, it is a street which starts off in the built-up centre of Sint-Lievens-Houtem, (the church on the right, and a water mill on the left later on) and a little later splits off to the left, into fields (a "verkaveling, I suppose) It is on page 133 (East-Flanders) of the road map I quoted. I am starting to wonder whether "Eiland" is not mentioned on the map these guys base themselves on because of that mill search for "Houtem" and | euh, "Heilandmolen?" An official map is to be found at hierEiland is the street below the site, on the right of the mill it turns to the left. What about www.mappy.be? This is: Eiland 27 and this is: Eiland 26 Take care, User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy--pgp 21:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi,

I received a notification of your Request for Mediation. I am a little confused by it though, as I am not aware of any dispute that I have with you or anyone in the list of involved parties (although I am, of course, familiar with the situation over Gotem/Kottem/Eiland and whatever else). If you feel that there is a dispute between the two of us, I would be glad to discuss it with you. However, at the moment, I don't understand the need for mediation and I'm inclined to disagree with the request. I'll hold off on posting my disagreement to the mediation page until I hear back from you though. ScottW 20:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Admittedly, I am a little ignorant of the mediation process, but I was under the impression that all participants were considered disputants. I'm still a little reluctant to join, as I'm not sure what positive outcome there could be. If indeed the editors in question were adding and editing articles in bad faith, then this seems to be less of a dispute than it is an out and out policy violation. Further, it seems to me that mediation requires that all parties act in good faith throughout the process and thereafter. If the basis of the complaint is that one or more parties are not acting in good faith as editors, then will it be productive to go through the whole process? I'm not so sure. In any case, I'll be glad to contribute however I can. It might be worth looking into a solution that will be a better fit for the problem though. ScottW 11:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

It's my first mediation attempt as well, and I'm not very optimistic about the chances for success, but I fear that I have to try it before I can take further actions. See Wikipedia:Resolving disputes: We have long passed the first step (talking), but I can't go to arbitration before at least trying one of the second level steps (of which mediation is one). It is hard to get them blocked for vandalism, as their behaviour is more complex and devious (see e.g. the entry on this talk page below this one). I guess some of them will be blocked in the end, but it may be a while. Still, it's worth a shot. Fram 12:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

A good step in the interim would be to report the vandalism warning the user posted to your page. At first glance, it would appear to be in bad faith, making the warning itself vandalism. ScottW 12:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I've reported him Wikipedia:Requests_for_investigation#New_requests here. It's hard to find where is the best place to report such behaviour. Fram 12:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that seems like a good place to start. Let me know if there is anything I can do to assist. ScottW 13:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I doubt that this request will succeed. I'm the only one willing to participate at the moment. syphonbyte 23:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Why do you dislike Gotem? Gotem is Gotem and Gotem is great.

Welcome to Wikipedia. We invite everyone to contribute constructively to our encyclopedia. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing. However, unconstructive edits, such as those you made to Eiland, are considered vandalism. If you continue in this manner you may be blocked from editing without further warning. Please stop, and consider improving rather than damaging the hard work of others. Thanks. 578 22:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

6 days after my last edit to that article? In what way was it "blatant vandalism"? I can hardly damage the "hard work of others" on the Eiland page, as it is a load of rubbish. But anyway, I haven't changed a word on it, I just added a Speedy delete tag, which is long since replaced by the AfD. But thanks for reminding me why I thought a RfM was necessary... Fram 08:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE IS HAVING A HISSY FIT!!! Do I need to call the Whaaambulance for the cry baby. Chill out man its wikipiedia, the only people that use it / trust it are the people who write it. 75% of your articles have mistakes in them so dont worry about this whole "WE MUST BE RIGHT" nonsense. Oh and your request for whatever has no effect on me at all, a simple change of the ole IP and a new account and you clowns wont know the difference578 17:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes I was inacitve for over a year partly becuase I left wikipeida over how stupid it was and became very active in ogame.org so I didnt have time to deal with the nonsense that takes place on wikipedia. I think you can see from my edits that I am have done a fair amount for this site (Alot on the civil war and other history bits) so I am not a user that just trolls about looking for problems. These are my real life friends and they asked me to put in my two cents, so I did. Now to answer your question as to why they are doing this A) to fight deletionism and B) becuase of gotem(speech). (Sit down and take some notes its time for a history lesson) Now about a year or so ago we made a gotem entry that was about the word gotem. It was put up for speedy delete but we got it to a VFD then for awhile we were winning the VfD (got half of are grade to come in and chime in) but then boat loads of people from Wiki chimmed in and we lost in a hard fought battle (hence the first battle of gotem) now GOtem is a city, township, hamlet whatever but its perfectly noteworthy. If you have an article on Eastside high school and one on gainesville, Florida whos only claim to fame is that UF is located in it. Why not just put that in the UF artilce no need for Gainesville Ariticle. We are just trying to have some fun and show how silly the whole wikipeida system is. By trying to keep this "oh no one is higher then anyone" nonsense all you are doing is making the project a lot harder then it needs to be. But hey its your ship, if you want to sink it be my guest.

By the way I dont know about this whole think you put on my talk page and I (nor any of my friends) will be taking place in the medieation thing.

I would go back and check for spelling and grammar but I dont really care. 578 17:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I have filed an RfI for you Wikipedia:Requests_for_investigation#New_requests, following the placement of all the useless nonsense that is on my talk page and becuase of your trolling and sockpuppets.578 20:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I've removed it due to lack of evidence. Petros471 20:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Also warned 578 based on your RFI report. Petros471 21:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It appears some sort of a mediation request has been filed that involves you and I. As far as I know, I have no disagreement with you and this process is nothing but a waste of time. Therefore, I will tentatively disagree with this request; if you think I ought to do otherwise let me know and if it seems reasonable I will change my statement of agreement.

Surely any disagreement between us can be settled informally... -PhoenixPinion 01:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

• I was going to agree with mediation, however you seem to have added so many more issues to be mediated that this is turning into a redifinition of Wikipedia. Most of these issues obviously are biased, as well. I may have to reconsider my agreement with mediation unless you make some changes to the issues to be mediated. syphonbyte 02:38, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I see... No problem then, but do me a favour. Add these articles too, as specific hotels only belong in the wikitravel:

1. Grand Hyatt Hong Kong
2. Toronto Hilton
3. Ritz Carlton (Toronto)
4. Four Seasons Hotel Yorkville
5. Raddison Hotel Admiral
6. Fairmont Royal York
7. ...

There are plenty more, I just don't have the time for it now. I look forward to your reply, --Krytan talk 15:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm a Wikipedian editor that just last night created a new article for a website that has been around for almost a year now, by the name of GamerAndy.com. Just this morning I seen a notice on the article about the possiblity of deletion due to this being a non-notable website and an advertisement. I checked the page history and seen that it came from you. If you don't mind me asking, first off, what is your definition of advertising? GamerAndy.com may have the .com address but it is not a commercial website. Adam "Andy" Levine, who runs the site, is willing to accept donations to keep the site up but they are not commercial they don't sell anything. So for the advertising thing, I don't know. But as for a non-notable website, that's up for debate I guess. I know about this site and the people there, because I'm a GamerAndy.com visiter and poster under the username of OldschoolVgamer. They all know me. If you or anyone else that had viewed this article in question would like to talk to me about this, leave some notes on my talk page. Vgamer101 16:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I made some edits to the article that may or may not help. Take a look. I also posted a response to you on my talk page. Sorry if I'm bothering you, it's just that I'm a relatively new Wikipedia member and this is my first article, so I'm still learning how to do things here. Vgamer101 19:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I've made some more edits to my article that may help lower the "promotional" thing a little and there is another post on "My talk" page. There are still some things to clear up and others for you to know. Vgamer101 03:34, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Fram, thanks for letting me know about the proposed deletion of The Owtsiders and its subsidiary pages. I have submitted an explanation of why it should not be deleted at Talk:The Owtsiders. If there is something else I need to do as a defense let me know. Regards! 16:06 EST, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I noticed that you added a non-notable tag to the Lucian Wintrich article. The original author seems to have removed this tag. As I can't seem to find any discussion of about its removal Im assuming that it was removed without debate - just thought I'd let you know in case you wanted to follow this up. Have fun Mammal4 20:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Since you recently nominated a hotel for AfD, I am inviting you to participate in a proposal for notability criteria for hotels. Your help would be greatly appreciated, thx. Pascal.Tesson 16:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Delete is at it again. Are there any articles that you want to keep? Its not like people think Wikipeida is a creditable source to get information so why not allow articles that have been around a while. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.170.192.181 (talk • contribs) 21:08, 28 June 2006.

Ahh but you failed on Gotem, and also your attempt to moderate it has failed as well. What’s next an RfA? What’s funny is you think wikipeida is legit, it has so many errors its not even funny. And so what we don’t live in Holland but last time I checked you don’t have to live some place to be able to write an article about it, you just have to have an interest in it, and who are you to question why we want to do something? When we first put Gotem on wikipeida (well over a year ago) people tried to speedy delete it and it failed, so why on earth would you start a VfD if it had already beaten a VfD you make no sense.