Talk:Riesling/Archive 1

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The line Other names for true Riesling - though these are only used in the United States - are Johannisberg Riesling (named after the famed Schloss Johannisberg), White Riesling and Rhine Riesling. struck me as inaccurate. Though I am not an Aussie, I have seen a couple Australian Rieslings with Rhine Riesling on the label. I don't think this is unique to US imports but I'm wondering if any Australian natives could chime in on its use Down Under. Thanks! Agne27 01:00, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Usage is rather confusing. It is quite likely that aussie usage of "Rhine riesling" is (largely) true riesling, but need to check. Will look it up later. Justinc 10:33, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

In response to the change by user 220.233.49.162 The change Australian & New Zealand Rieslings - Riesling is not second leading white grape in Australia - Chardonnay, Semillon, Colombard, Sauvignon Blanc and possibly others surpass the crushed tonnes.

My apologies, my reference was to Riesling as second to Chardonnay in plantings among white grape vines. This was a direct result of the "Riesling boon" of the 1970s. I will make the noted correction. Agne27 01:00, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi,

I am the user that made the change, I am sorry that I removed the information without quoting a source. In terms of planted varieties, please look at the PDF at http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/[email protected]/DetailsPage/1329.02005?OpenDocument . Section 3 of that document shows statistics on planted varieties for the year of 2005. Riesling trails behind Chardonnay, Semillon and Sultana in plantings and Section 4 shows yields where Riesling trails behind the previous mentioned grapes as well as Colombard (I was wrong about Sauvignon Blanc, that information came from Varietal Wines by James Halliday which was republished in 2005).

I will leave it to you to decide if the information should be changed again. --165.228.129.11 03:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I found a second source was dated 2003 and I found that it did note that Semillon was on the upward trend. Your source is the most recent and I will make the change. Agne27 18:21, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I have trouble with the German riesling section stating that it "is hardly ever exposed to commercial yeast". I'm not sure what the definition of "commercial yeast" is, but I can't believe that all German Riesling wine is produced using ambient yeast. References? Walter Moar 05:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Source added to article. The disclaimer in the sentence is that German Rieslings are "hardly ever", it's not absolute but the wine making tradition in German and the common practice of most Schloss (especially the reputable ones) is to utilize ambient yeast. For many German Wine lovers this is part of the purity and charm of these wines. Ex. Honolulu StarAgne27 17:32, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I take issue with a number of statements on the page:

-- Riesling wines from Germany are traditionally sweet to medium sweet.

In fact most evidence suggests that historically most german wine was dry as the technology didn't exist to stop fermentation early.

-- known for its characteristic “transparency” in flavor and presentation,

“transparency”?? I've heard transparency used in connection with colour and a few times in connection with the bouquet, but never in flavour. That is verging on an insult!

-- Rieslings are sometimes considered a good “introductory wine” for novice wine enthusiasts

I have never ever heard this either and would even disagree with the statement. I have however heard exactly this in reference to Gewürztraminer, because it is an 'in your face' wine, with easily recognisable flavours.

Item #1. I agree that the line could be expanded and more clarified. "Traditionally" was used in the more vernacular sense of what people commonly associate with a German Riesling today and not the "historical" sense. Though if we did want to speak historically, according to Hugh Johnson in Vintage: The Story of Wine pg 290 that the Romans (early makers of "german wine") used Lead to give the wines a "sweet & succulent" texture, a practice that continued well into the mid-18th century. Also, a page earlier Johnson notes It almost goes without saying that the most looked for characteristic of all German wine was sweetness... There was also the sussreserve method of add unfermented fruit juice into the wine after a year or so fermenting, which was common among the German peasantry for centauries. And as a side note, coming from the spouse of a wine maker, technology is not the only way to "stop" fermentation. Bitter cold weather (such as Germany in winter) also does the trick. It's essentially "Cold Stabilization".

But again, I was working towards a more modern traditional association of German Riesling which is--if you quiz a casual drinker may (unfortunately) be Leibfraumilch or the wine enthusiast would bring up the deliciously sweet Beerenauselese or TBAs. If you talk about "dry" Riesling, the standard bearer is by far Alsatian. While there certainly are dry German Rieslings out there, they are generally not what first springs to mind or taste buds when you think of German Rieslings.

Item #2 This is a common tasting note seen with many Rieslings and refers to an "easily detectable" flavor. Transparent as in "not hiding" it's terrior, those trademark tastes. I've also often seen it in reference to how well a Riesling can present it's typicity. Purity or "crisp clarity in flavor" or other ways of wording but conveying the same point. "Transparency" as an adjective doesn't always refer to the visual, as any dictionary can attest. If you want to argue for maybe a better wording, or something that can more efficient convey a given point that's fine but I do think you're being a bit harsh in saying it's an insult when it's just simple vocabulary.

Item #3 I agree that this statement needs sources and I will look for some verifiable ones when I get the oppotunity. It's inclusion in the article was the product of repeated hearing and practice for years from a variety of venues. Points that have often been heard are that novice wine drinkers normally start with sweet, readily available wines and graduate up. Off-dry Rieslings provide a nice segway to finer wines. They are easily drinkable, not harsh or spicy. Rieslings are well known for how well they convey a sense of their terrior and are hardly ever masked with oak. (I would say 'never' but I've had the misfortune to taste the exception) The citrus & mineral notes are some of the more easily detectable bouquets among wine which adds to it's value in graduating a novice up to better wines.

As a matter of solely personal opinion, I would never recommend a Gertie to a customer coming into my store who is first getting to know white wine. Gerties are closer to "Big, Bold Reds" then the flavor and manner of most whites. That "in your face" flavor is more reminiscent of a Zin or a Shiraz then it is of Chardonnay, Pinot Grigio or Riesling. Often they are too racy and spicy for the novice who is use to easy drinking white zinfandels or Boone's Farm. As a stepping stone to Reds, Gerties are great but not in the very beginning.Agne27 23:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry still not buying it. I have also been to loads of tastings in 3 countries and have never seen Riesling introduced as a beginners wine. And the comment -- which adds to it's value in graduating a novice up to better wines. What exactly do you mean better wines? Riesling is one of the handful of truly classic grapes, and in the opinion of many (including myself) the finest white grape.

One of the problems with riesling (and of the reason why it is not recommended for beginners) is that it is an easily misunderstood wine. A halbtrocken riesling is easy to classify as sweet, but it is the balance between sweetness and acidity is what can make the wine great. The drys are often acidy which could lead a beginner to miss the fruitiness, I have seen great halbtrockens dismissed as too sweet and the trocken as too acidic. I take your point about the terroir and to a certain extent the nose, but if that is what you mean then the article should indicate that. Perhaps this should be taken out of the first paragraph and included in more detail after.

I was joking about the insult bit, but I am not sure the term used alone is as widepread a piece of wine vocabulary as you claim. I have however seen it in a few descriptions where it was clarified. i.e. From Johnson: 'transparent clarity of flavour'.

As for Gewürztraminer: you are not being entirely consistent here. You talk about Rieslings being good introductory wines for novices because the flavours are easily identifiable, but say that you would not recommend gewürztramier to a customer because it is very full and spicy wine. That's not comparing like with like. The gewürztraminer flavours IMO are even more easily identifiable. I personally think it is a 'fun' wine. From Johsons Wine Companion: "Gewürztraminer: The beginners grape due to it's forthright spicy smell and flavour"

The traditional association of sweetness with german riesling is exactly that: an association. It is not a fact. Yes I know that in previous centuries the finest of german wines were sweet and that would have to an extent have been the goal of a winemaker, but in those days, good sweet wines would probably only have been produced in good years. The point is though, is that there has always been dry german wines and that the association with sweetness arises from the association with cheap wines (ala liebfrauenmilch etc.). The new Grosses / Erstes Gewächs system in germany (whether it is on the bottle or not) is exclusively awarded to dry wines.

I find the article quite dismissive of German riesling in general. If that was not your intention then the article is badly written. If it was your intention than it should be removed because opinions have no place here (POV or whatever the wikiists call it).

I suspect that you are reading into things sentiments that are completely foreign to the matter. As to your background motivation or what is causing this tinted view, I can scarce speculate. Your comment that I don't consider Riesling a fine wine is a skewed misreading at best, why would I be advocate Riesling as a good introduction to fine white wine if I didn't think it belonged to that category itself?

I share with you a desire to make this article better and for that benefit, I hope we can keep this discussion civil. Your joking sarcasm and calling into question my intentions is counterproductive.

Now to the brunt of the contentions where there might be light for compromise.

1.) Riesling for beginners. The original statement Rieslings are sometimes considered... made no claims of exclusivity nor the assumption that is a universal standard. It's common and practical but not exclusive or absolute. Just as often as I've seen Riesling advocated, so too have I seen Chardonnay for that matter. While I have not seen the passionate advocating of Gertie for this role, I don't doubt that there are proponents. Is there a reason why we can not flesh out that statement, incorporating the Pro's & Con's, just as we started in this talk page?

I will clarify that the intention was in advocating Riesling's benefit as an introduction to white wine (which appreciation generally comes before that of finer red wines.) There are some nit pick points relating to your reply that I go more in depth to in another post.

2.) Transparency. Again, it looks like difference in vocabulary and probably one more of regional then anything else. Wikipedia, as any encyclopedia, is trying to appeal to a common denominator reading level. If you sincerely feel that the particular adjective I used (and one that is found in many tasting notes) can cause confusion to the average reader, then by all means edit.

3.) Sweetness. The "ASSOCIATION" itself is fact. People (at least here in the US) associate German Rieslings with sweet, an association that "goes without saying" as Hugh Johnson has been noted previously. You are more then welcome to expand and flesh out the article with details about Dry Rieslings. But I will say that your dismissal of sweetness in German Rieslings is BY FAR your weakest contention, especially the statement the association with sweetness arises from the association with cheap wines (ala liebfrauenmilch etc.) is laughable if you meant to be absolute. The numerous legion of fans for the tremendous German desert wines have every right to associate sweetness with German Rieslings.Agne27 18:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

While I have not had the pleasure of tastings in 3 countries (European, I suspect), I have been to plenty of tastings (and conducted my own) with Riesling as a beginning point for white wine. In the US Chardonnay is insanely popular but the oak mask is like make up for wine and while it has it's own benefits, Riesling purity and clean slate stands out. It's a white wine that conveys exactly what it is and you've agreed in how well it present terrior. Compare an Alsatian, an Aussie, a German (especially Mosel) and a US Riesling and even a novice can visualize that sense of 'place' when they taste it. At the risk of being called a terriorist, I do believe terrior is a deeply vested aspect in wine appreciation. Far too often I've see an entire varietal dismissed (like US Sauvignon Blanc) with a person never giving themselves an opportunity to see how special it could be in the right circumstance (like NZ Sauvignon Blanc).

1.) You stated One of the problems with Riesling (and of the reason why it is not recommended for beginners) is that it is an easily misunderstood wine. I think an argument could be made that any wine can be "misunderstood" especially with a beginner. Look at the bum rap Merlot got after "Sideways". Of course part of the blame is the mass produce crap Merlot that is ever present but the difference in a Chateau Petrus and a generic Napa Merlot would confuse any novice if you presented both blind and told them it's a Merlot. The same with with Riesling. Just as well as Riesling conveys it sense of Terrior, so too does it proclaim the skill of it's producer.

2.) In contrast to a Gertie, I think Rieslings would less "confuse" a novice in relation to other white wine varietal. Gewürztraminers are so fundamentally different then any other white. It's a perfect stepping stone to the Big, Bold Reds-the Super Tuscans, Aussie Shiraz and Zin. It is a more complimentary "white" version of Zinfandel then White Zin ever will be. Can you honestly expect a person to move seamlessly from a Gertie to appreciation of Chardonnay, Semillon, Pinot Grigios or even most Riesling? Gewürztraminer is a wonderful grape but it doesn't have the mass appeal (or range) that Riesling has nor does it parlay as well towards appreciation of the other Whites.

3.) What you interpret as a cause for "misunderstanding" is really one of the charms of the varietal-how it can range from super sweet to off-dry to dry. That itself is treasure trove in even understanding the concept of harmony in wine, how both acidity and sweetness intermingle in a spectrum of flavors. The best thing is that Riesling rarely give you that horrify, life altering bad bottle. Sure the bottle you have today maybe a tad too sweet or a tad too acidic but it's hardly ever that much of an affront that you'll swear off the varietal forever. (That is something that the overwhelming POW of some Gertie's can do.) But more often then not a novice will find Rieslings very drinkable with just a little sweetness that ease the transition from the white zin/jug wines and that complement of acidity that makes wine really great.

Again, I think Gerties are great wines and you're right about it being very fun. It's my favorite white wine to recommend to "Red Wine Snobs" who think whites are not up to snuff. It always shows them different. But for the customers who are novice, who want to get to know "Good White Wine" beyond White Zin and apart from heavily made up Chardonnay, you have to take it easy. It's a transition and a maturation process for their own individual taste. The greatness of Riesling is that you have a wonderful introductory wine that will ease them away from the super sweet stuff that they are use to without sacrificing quality in it's own right. It's a good leap pad to other whites (and eventually to Reds) but it is also one that most people may find in time, after trying the others, that it is really the best of them all.Agne27 19:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow 2 responses. Sorry, but I think YOU are overreacting to my comments. The original comment about an 'insult' was meant as a gentle joke, and the next mention was a clarification of the fact. Don't get carried away. I did not call your intentions into question, I merely tried (obsviously unsuccessfully) to draw attention to the fact that the article comes across as quite negative towards german riesling and I stand by that. Fine, if that was not your intention then maybe you should 'touch it up'. End of story.

I disagree with the assessment that the article seems negative towards Riesling. I really don't see anything in it that implies that. At least, here in the US&Canada, it is almost always suggested as a wine for novices. Simply because, nine times out of ten, a "wine novice" is someone who wants to move beyond White Zinfandel, rather than someone new to wine in general. For that purpose, Riesling is outstanding. It's easy to drink (like White Zin), but the flavor isn't overwhelmed by the sweetness (unlike White Zin ;). And as much as I love Gewürztraminers (my favorite white), if I gave a glass of it to my White Zinfandel drinking mom, she'd have trouble drinking that first glass.

I just don't see any of the negativity. Bethling 16:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

---

What can I say? I love talking about wine. :) I would say it's more a failing of being long winded then reactionary. I do want to encourage you to contribute to the article, help it evolved, and we all benefit. The areas that jump out of which you can be a valuable asset is with expanding the German Riesling section, not the least of which are the dry ends of the spectrum. My request would simple be that you respect that sweet & off-dry Rieslings are part of that spectrum too.

I also think that what we started with the Pros & Cons of Riesling being an introductory wine would be a nice feature of the article. The side subject of Gertie is not needed but examing both angles would best maintain the NPOV and give the best representation.

Again, I think you offer considerable benefit to this article and it would be a shame if this is the end of the story. There is disagree but there is also compromise and in the end a better article. Agne27 20:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the Titanic and 2005 vintage comments-I added source tags for them. I'll give a little time to see if any sources can be provided before I revert back the edit. Adding citations will be very important going forward as we try and work Riesling up to FA status. I share a bulk load of the blame. This was one of my first major wiki contributions as a newbie (before I realized the importance of inline citations) and hence I left it in the shape that it's in now. I will work where I can to backtrack my info so that proper sources can be added. However, for anyone who comes along, feel free to be merciless in editing if you can't find a source. If I later find my source I can always add it back. Agne 16:24, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello Agne, too much of a good thing. The 2001 vintage to be best for decades is a common knowledge thing, no need to proof it by inline citation. 2003 is absolutely debatable. As far as the Titanic is conecerned you know in which book by Schonemaker the information is to be found. If you like you can take the burden of evidence and search it. But we can let it deleted as well, it's not our task to arouse interest in the reader. The less people do know about German Riesling, the cheaper it get's ;-) I like Burke's Peerage 07:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

LOL Re: cheap german riesling. Quite true. :p I originally added the vintage comments when I first expanded the article (and made many of my newbie mistakes) but I am rethinking their inclusion. They are terribly hard to source and even the sources tend to be subjective and borderline POV-ish. I am going to do a sort of RfC on the Wikipedia Wine Project page about the merit of their inclusion. I invite you to voice your thoughts and also consider joining the project. Agne 07:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Might be a nice form of traineeship. I'll balance that a while. Thanks for the invitation. I like Burke's Peerage 07:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Two photos that I think would be nice to add is a photo of Riesling with food-ideally including the bottle label with a glass and then a photo of an American Riesling--like Eroica. Agne 20:59, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

On a picture-related note, I like the composition of the "longevity" picture. However, the text describes the yellow complexion of the wine after many years in bottle. In the picture, the wine is quite orange, not yellow. This is caused by the picture having been taken under a flourescent light (and not a daylight-version of the tube). It is notorious for causing miscolored pictures. We should be on the look-out for better pictures, taken in daylight conditions (and perhaps with a better backdrop). I realize that it's difficult to find 30+ year old Rieslings, and you don't just open one to take a picture. Still, we should keep a look-out.--Nwinther (talk) 08:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, the caption reads "golden to amber colour" rather than "yellow", and that is on purpose. While the background is darker and less white than I would have preferred, the colour is actually not that much off, perhaps a shade darker. I took a photo because the wine had a darker and richer colour than typical 10-15 year old Riesling (say, bright yellow to pale gold) without being undrinkable. But you're right thats it's fluorescent lighting. Tomas e (talk) 17:50, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

In its current state we have a main paragraph for each country/Region that makes a casual mention to the sub-regions within it. Is this something that we would want to expand? For instance, at least a five more paragraphs could be added to the German Riesling sections dealing with the differences and history of Riesling made in the Mosel, Nahe, Pfalz, Baden and Rheingau. The same is true in the North American section with the articles about the individual states and Canada. What sort of balance do we want to keep between giving a full representation of Riesling and trying to keep the article lean and encyclopedic? Agne 07:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I passed this article as a GA. It is quite good. Before nominating it for FA, expand it in general, and move the External Links section beneath the References section. Some P. Erson 00:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

It's been tagged as a cite needed for a while, and I'm still concerned by it. "Stored well, Riesling can remain drinkable for over a century." To me, that seems like an exaggeration, though I guess it depends on what it being used for a definition of drinkable. Anyone have a cite? --- The Bethling^(Talk) 01:02, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it does need some citing but that's pretty difficult. I'll look around. I have tasted Germans over 100 years old but that's hardly what we're looking for.

It's not common, but riesling can be almost immortal. See this note from an 1893 wine [1] "This had a good, remarkably clean and clear goldish caramel colour. Fairly sweet on the nose with a hint of raisins, and also some peat and cream with just enough minerality to confirm that this was riesling. As is usually the case with old rieslings, the sweetness had gone, and it was much drier on the palate than the nose would lead you to expect."

Or see this offering of 1862-1897 beerenauslesen [2].

I might be more accurate to say that extremely sweet wines from exceptional years have a much better chance at reaching the century mark. Wnissen 02:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

This article starts with calling riesling a "varietal appellation", which is correct for Alsace AOC but definitely not for Germany and Austria. Under the German wine classification, the term appellation is not used and has no direct translation since the whole classification is so different from the French AOC system. In the wine category corresponding to AOC, Prädikatswein, the varietal designation is voluntary, and distinct from the geographic designation which is compulsory with respect to wine-growing region, but voluntary with respect to vineyard. This means that you can make a varietal riesling wine in Germany, without displaying the variety on the label, but you are still allowed to use a single vineyard designation and any Prädikat, such as Eiswein or Trockenbeerenauslese. Of course, this would be complete idiocy from a marketing point of view, but totally legal. Therefore, this section needs to be reworded. I would prefer putting the varietal appellation information under the Alsace section. Tomas e 17:07, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

On second thought, varietal appellation isn't correct for Alsace AOC either, since the appellation is either AOC Alsace or AOC Alsace Grand Cru AOC, there is no French AOC with Riesling in its name, and not even under the slightly distorted definition currently described in the article appellation can Riesling be construed as an "appellation". Tomas e 17:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

After the List of Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée wines article has been corrected with respect to Alsace AOCs, I've removed the phrase "varietal appellation" from this article. Tomas e 17:00, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

No mention is made in the article of Riesling enjoyed while young. Should a sentence or two about the option be entered under the Longevity section? Aged Riesling is certainly interesting and rewarding but so is the young wine. Binksternet 08:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. One sentence added. Tomas e 11:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Nicely done. Thanks! Binksternet 14:05, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone heard of a "red" variety of Riesling? Agne^Cheese/^Wine 17:16, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Yup - heard of but not tasted! Using my favourite online source for German wine info (Wein-Plus, with partially free content) and translating from the German text:
"Red Riesling: This white variety is a mutation with red berries of Riesling. Comment: what is commonly called "red varieties" in English are invariably known as "blue" in formal German names (blauer...) and "black" in French (... noir). Under such formal designations, red or pink varieties (roter.../.. rose) are "white wine" varieties with a deeper skin colour, such as Gewürztraminer. By many experts considered as the original form of Riesling, i.e. the other way around. The variety is grown to a small extent in Germany and Austria. In Austria, a Red Riesling is cultivated by the Vienna Vineyard Zahel (but it is not fully confirmed of what variety). In the year 2004, Dr. Corvers-Kauter (Rheingau) planted 850 vines in the vineyard site Oestricher Klosterberg. The first wine was made in 2006. Furthermore, the variety is grown by the Rheingau winery Allendorf. Confusingly, Red Riesling is also an old synonym for the two separate varieties Traminer (Red Traminer i.e. probably a Traminer version similar to Savagnin rose if it is an old synonym, but possibly a Gewürztraminer) and Hanns (a seed plant of Roter Veltliner)." Tomas e (talk) 20:47, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, my first instinct was to suspect it was really Savagnin Rose, now I can see why. Excellent point about the difference with "red/black/blue" vs "red/pink". I suspect that will throw a lot of people off. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 20:52, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems that the terminology blue or black grapes is not very much used in English, but I've sometimes taken to using the term "dark-skinned grapes", because that seems to be understood (and more correct). So while Pinot Noir/Blauer Spätburgunder is a dark-skinned grape, Roter Riesling or Gewürztraminer aren't. So it could perhaps be expected that Red Riesling, if allowed some maceration, will give a wine with a deeper yellow colour already when young, and perhaps a little more robust flavour? I think the eRP discussion board participant could have read this notice when he talked about regular Riesling being saved by Red Riesling, but probably he misunderstood the meaning of red (as opposed to dark-skinned/blue/black). Tomas e (talk) 21:06, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I suspect your right about the eRP poster, which made that post seem more confusing to me. :p Oh and I love it when you use nursery rhymes in your edit summaries. :) Agne^Cheese/^Wine 21:13, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Lifted in the Red Riesling material in the article, so the eRP lot will find what they're looking for the next time. Tomas e (talk) 00:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

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After reviewing this article per GA Sweeps, I believe that this article can maintain its GA status. Here're some minor issues that I think needs to be addressed sooner or later. There are many red-links in Crosses, but I guess someone will create these articles later. There should be references in Naming, but these uncited claims are not controversial. Please try to fix them to make its way to FA. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 21:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)