Talk:Murray River rainbowfish

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus that "Murray River rainbowfish" is the WP:COMMONNAME above other vernacular names for the species. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:20, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Melanotaenia fluviatilis → Murray River rainbowfish – Sorry to dig this up again @John Moss. The citation (https://fishbase.mnhn.fr/comnames/CommonNamesList.php?ID=22685&GenusName=Melanotaenia&SpeciesName=fluviatilis&StockCode=18008) doesn't give any evidence to back up this statement "The Australian rainbowfish (Melanotaenia fluviatilis), known less commonly as the Murray River rainbowfish". There are a whole bunch of species that could be called "Australian rainbowfish", not just Melanotaenia fluviatilis. As per WP:NCFAUNA, "Use the most common name when possible". The most common name for this species is Murray River rainbowfish. Any objections if I WP:MOVE this?

• https://www.rainbowfish.angfaqld.org.au/Fluviatilis.htm
• https://livefish.com.au/murray-river-rainbow-4-5cm-cold-water-rainbow-melanotaenia-fluviatilis
• https://fishesofaustralia.net.au/home/species/2107
• https://www.aquariumindustries.com.au/product/murray-river-rainbow/
• https://www.amazingamazon.com.au/products/murray-river-rainbow-fish-html
• https://secondnatureaquariums.com.au/product/melanotaenia-fluviatilis-murray-river-rainbow-6-5cm/
• https://apps.des.qld.gov.au/species-search/details/?id=27025

99% fad-free (talk) 12:28, 29 August 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 04:15, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Multiple vernacular names exist. The scientific name is the most commonly used name. All of the websites above give the scientific name. Three of them call it "Murray River rainbow", and other names mentioned in the above websites include: crimson-spotted rainbowfish, Murray-Darling rainbowfish, Crimson-spotted Jewelfish, Crimson-spotted Jewel-fish, Murray River Sunfish, Murray-Darling Sunfish, Pink Ear, Pink-ear, Pink-eared Rainbowfish, Rainbow-fish. Plantdrew (talk) 17:57, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  In reality here in Victoria, there is only one vernacular in common usage, which is Murray River rainbowfish. I'm not sure whether we are referring to the same websites, but the majority of the websites in the list I gave put "Murray River rainbowfish" or "Murray River rainbow" as the most prominent common name. I agree that there are other names, but the preponderance of sources seem to agree. Here are plenty more sources below that also list "Murray River rainbowfish" as the most prominent common name. I can take some pictures of the common name in use at local aquariums around here too if it would help, but I think that would breach Wikipedia:No original research ;).

  • https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/Ecology_of_Australian_Freshwater_Fishes/2sVWEgrVr0EC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22murray%20river%20rainbowfish%22&pg=PT69&printsec=frontcover
  • https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/Wetland_Habitats/eoVG_N9uUZwC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22murray%20river%20rainbowfish%22&pg=PA166&printsec=frontcover
  • https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/545617/FFRS-33_Morris-et-al-2001.pdf
  • https://water.dpie.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/492418/diets-of-native-fish-in-nsw.pdf
  • https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-76378-7
  • https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10646-020-02161-z
  • https://researchrepository.rmit.edu.au/esploro/outputs/doctoral/Molecular-responses-of-the-Murray-river/9921861602201341
  • https://bie.ala.org.au/species/https://biodiversity.org.au/afd/taxa/21d7aff4-0ab3-4980-80e9-50c0c7e58564
  • https://biodiversity.org.au/afd/taxa/Murray_River_Sunfish
  • https://www.angfa.org.au/fish-keeping/172-introducing-the-native-fish-of-australia-and-new-guinea.html

  99% fad-free (talk) 00:01, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  And of course, Fishbase, which Wikipedia:WikiProject_Aquarium_Fishes#Taxonomy_references gives guidance as being the authoritative source. I believe it's referencing Allen, G.R., 1989. Freshwater fishes of Australia.

  https://fishbase.mnhn.fr/summary/Melanotaenia-fluviatilis.html 99% fad-free (talk) 00:07, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Also, from Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(fauna)#Use_the_most_common_name_when_possible, the most common vernacular name is the most appropriate when it is unambiguously referring to that species, as is the case with Murray River rainbowfish.

  "Article titles are determined by the application of five criteria. The article title should usually consist of the name that is most common in English, following WP:Article titles § Common names. For well known animals, this will normally be the vernacular name (exceptions are detailed below)".

  Although the scientific name is used alongside the vernacular, the vernacular is more appropriate according to policy as well as general readability. When people talk about, write about, reference the species, they are usually using the vernacular. Of course in scientific publications they are more likely to use the scientific name, but that doesn't stop us from using the vernacular which is usually also the most common name in English, Wikipedia being an encylopaedia, not a scientific publication.

  Sorry for not being WP:Succinct. I am still developing my knowledge of Wikipedia practices. 99% fad-free (talk) 00:16, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom. It does look like the WP:COMMONNAME is as proposed, and if there are other titles they are not widely used. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 14:41, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Fishes has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 04:13, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Aquarium Fishes has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 04:13, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Australia has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 04:14, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. It's tricky to use common names for aquarium fishes, not only because there can be many of them but also because a common name can refer to multiple species, and the Latin name is unambiguous. But Murray River rainbowfish should definitely be a redirect to this page. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:30, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Have you got any policy guidance that can help us here? I'm not a fan of relying purely on policy, but in this case the policy seems to be providing us with good guidance. e.g. Neon tetra is an aquarium fish and we use the common name in that scenario. In this case, Murray River rainbowfish unambiguously refers to Melanotaenia fluviatilis. WP:NCFAUNA advises to use the common name in this case. Wikipedia:WikiProject Aquarium Fishes#Common name or scientific_name refers us to Wikipedia:WikiProject Fishes#Fish names and article titles:

  "Common name or scientific name

  Article titles should be determined using the guidelines at WP:FISH (naming guidelines)".

  Under "Article titles", I believe that item 1(ii) is applicable.

  "Article naming for fishes differs, as detailed below, from Naming conventions (fauna).

  Use the common name for any species that satisfies at least one of the following criteria:

  ..

  1(ii) The species has a widely recognised common name that is so rarely applied to other species that confusion as to the subject of the article is unlikely to arise. Example: Guppy."

  Murray River rainbowfish is a widely recognised common name and is rarely (or hardly ever) applied to other species. The guidelines state that only one of the criteria needs to be met. This doesn't exclude other common names from existing or being referenced in the article or being used as redirects.

  Although unnecessary (it only needs to satisfy one), I believe it also satisifies 1(iv):

  "1(iv) The species has a common name that is normally seprated from similar common names by use of geographical, descriptive, or other modifications to those names. Once differentiated, these names satisfy criteria i, ii, or iii above. Examples: Shovelnose sturgeon, Little shovelnose sturgeon, False shovelnose sturgeon."

  Crimson-spotted rainbowfish also refers to Melanotaenia duboulayi, which was originally believed to be the same species as Melanotaenia fluviatilis, hence the confusion. Murray River rainbowfish came to refer to Melanotaenia fluviatilis unambiguously as a geographical modification to Crimson-spotted rainbowfish or any other type of rainbowfish. Perhaps decades ago, when the species were only just discovered to be different, it wouldn't have been appropriate to use a common name that wasn't well established, but, at this point in time, the common name has become entrenched. I believe it also satisfies criteria 1(i) and 1(iii) and can go into further detail as to my reasons if necessary. 99% fad-free (talk) 01:33, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Policy seems clear on this, and so do the sources - the common name is the preferred name and there is a clear common name to use here. JTdale 🗩 11:18, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]