Talk:List of Israeli civilian casualties in the Second Intifada

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This article was nominated for deletion on 26 December 2006. The result of the discussion was Keep.

This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination: Merge, 4 November 2023, see discussion. No consensus, 15 September 2023, see discussion. Keep, 29 August 2007, see discussion. Keep, 26 December 2006, see discussion.

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Archives

Archive 1 (2004–2006) Archive 2 (March–October 2007) Archive 3 (Oct 31–Nov 10 2007) Archive 4 (November 9–18 2007) Archive 5 (Nov 2007–June 2009)

This looks orphaned, i.e. not edited for a long time. This list is extremely lacking. I counted total death toll in it as just above 400, but it is known to be above 1500. WillNess (talk) 11:18, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's in much better shape than List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada. Sean.hoyland - talk 13:46, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say. Having a perpetrator of Mercaz HaRav massacre counted there in the lead of that article (on civilian casualties) as one of "53 Palestinians ... killed by Israeli civilians" is just an offense to common decency and good faith editing practices. Just shows you the abysmal state of practices of disingenuous sources usage by pro-Palestinian (obviously) editors. One just can't take anything from this poisoned well at face value after that. And I wasn't looking, I just clicked on the 1st citation link. That was the very first - and last - I checked there. WillNess (talk) 14:58, 26 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to create a list of "Arab-Israeli rioters killed by Israeli police," go right ahead. Civilians aren't armed. Civilians are not breaking any international laws. To include Arab rioters in this list of victims just to prove a political point is highly POV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.46.193 (talk) 09:18, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Haaretz, an RS, describes them as Israeli civilians, thus they meet the criteria for inclusion. Also the Israeli government has acknowledged the same. The Or commission report set up to investigate the killings and surrounding events was officially commissioned to investigate "the clashes between security forces and Israeli civilians." [1], [2]. Dlv999 (talk) 10:14, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have restored "According to B'tselem between the start of the second intifada and operation cast lead 970 Israeli civilians have been killed compared to 575 members of the Israeli security services." Allowing the facts to speak for themselves seems perfectly suited to the introduction of this article. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:38, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Gradgrind would have been very pleased with your approach. Can you explain why you have selected this arbitrary time frame for these fatalities which extends beyond the scope of the second intifada?Ankh.Morpork 18:48, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't, B'tselem have. I would imagine that's because the Second Intifada doesn't have a well defined end point. If we can refine the data let's do that, but facts are more neutral, informative and encyclopedic than terms like "overwhelming majority" and "terror attacks". Sean.hoyland - talk 18:57, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pray tell where B'tselem state that these figures are a "List of Israeli civilian casualties in the Second Intifada"? You state that the conclusion of the intifada is indeterminate (Red herring seeing as nobody suggests it extended until Cast Lead) and that permits this arbitrary time frame. Yet you condone the removal of other figures. Please explain this contrasting approach.Ankh.Morpork 19:14, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry I don't speak pissyfuck. Could you try that again without the repulsive attitude and I'll think about whether you are worth collaborating with. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:48, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would kindly appreciate if your good self could consider the points raised. Many thanks.Ankh.Morpork 07:29, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ankh, why don't you stop wasting everyone's time with your nonsense? Killings of Israeli civilians up to 2008 are documented in the list, but for some reason you have a problem with citing the B'tselem figures for the exact same period that covers the killings documented in the list. Dlv999 (talk) 08:40, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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See Civilian casualties in the Second Intifada#Israeli non-combatant casualties for the exact same topic, almost identical list - ALMOST only because nobody bothered to merge the two and then remove this page. WHY? Arminden (talk) 16:52, 1 January 2016 (UTC)ArmindenArminden (talk) 16:52, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Why no total?

May I presume you folks have a reason for not including a total figure? If not, I would find it useful. ''Paul, in Saudi'' (talk) 04:09, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Why do we have two articles on this (this article, and Israeli civilian casualties in the Second Intifada) (...while we have none -zero- on the Palestinian civilian casualties?!)

I suggest that we merge these two articles. Comments? Huldra (talk) 20:31, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge and Rename to Israeli civilian casualties the Al-Aqsa Intifada in line with the Al-Aqsa Intifada article name.GreyShark (dibra) 10:23, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge as duplicates. But I don't see what this has to do with Palestinian casualties. buidhe 00:36, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge This might be a bit late and I'm not 100% sure about merging Israeli and Palestinian casualty lists, but I see no reason why there should be two separate articles covering the same material Rootless Cosmopolitan (talk) 16:24, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've commented to Huldra about this elsewhere, but the duplicate titles were created (presumably inadvertently) by Huldra through a page move, which I believe was not a helpful one. Reversing the November 2019 page move will return to a more sensible structure of an over-aching 'civilian casualties' article, which linked to daughter articles of Israeli and Palestinian lists, which also including foreign civilians. I think that some commenters have also missed the existience of List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada, which was created in 2007. Klbrain (talk) 09:23, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]