Talk:Arab Indonesians

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A fact from Arab Indonesians appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 30 August 2011 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that the first Arab settlements in Indonesia (family pictured) may date from the fifth century? A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2011/August. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Arab Indonesians.

Fascinating topic. I'm a little worried about "In recent years they have been associated with Islamic radicalism due to their perceived influence in radicalist groups." I know what you mean here but feel disquieted by characterisng the whole group (with "their") as exercising influence in radical groups. I'm less worried about "Arab-Indonesian influence in the founding radicalist groups" but think it could be less "broad brush" too: perhaps something like "the involvement of some Arab-Indonesians"? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:25, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, no problem with your rewording. Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:57, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I've made some minor changes to more closely reflect the sources, and moved mention of the association of the community with radicalism from the lead and expanded the discussion in the body. I moved it out of the lead mainly for weight issues. I'm happy to discuss all of this if you have any objections or questions. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:22, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Which?

Definitely not hardami. Hadharem is the plural form of Hadrami in Arabic, so the correct word I think is Hadhrami.

--Buhadram (talk) 16:01, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some Arabs served in Islamic clerical positions under the Dutch colonial administration, working with the Dutch government as Grand Muftis or in other capacities.

ʻUthmān ibn ʻAbdallāh ibn ʻAqīl ibn Yaḥyā al-ʻAlawī 1822-1914 was the Grand Mufti of the Dutch East Indies, based in Batavia. He was of Arab Hadhrami descent and worked with the Dutch colonial authorities like Christiaan Snouck Hurgronje, advising them on Islamic matters. He printed lithographed books at his own press in Batavia.

عثمان بن عبد الله بن عقيل بن يحيى العلاوي

http://books.google.com/books?id=IbhIAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA22&dq=uthman+ibn+aqil&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tE8qU533BsjD0QG6qIDoBw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=uthman%20ibn%20aqil&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=r6ZQfWHzP0wC&pg=PA283&dq=uthman+ibn+aqil&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tE8qU533BsjD0QG6qIDoBw&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=uthman%20ibn%20aqil&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=aYtWAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA131&dq=uthman+ibn+aqil&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tE8qU533BsjD0QG6qIDoBw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=uthman%20ibn%20aqil&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=H3nHpsDBm6QC&pg=PA301&dq=uthman+ibn+aqil&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tE8qU533BsjD0QG6qIDoBw&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=uthman%20ibn%20aqil&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=MUCqtpESbu0C&pg=PA84&dq=uthman+ibn+aqil&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tE8qU533BsjD0QG6qIDoBw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=uthman%20ibn%20aqil&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=S3nlvRJyjUEC&pg=PA177&dq=uthman+ibn+aqil&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tE8qU533BsjD0QG6qIDoBw&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=uthman%20ibn%20aqil&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=WRMZ4Q4yezAC&pg=PA529&dq=uthman+ibn+aqil&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tE8qU533BsjD0QG6qIDoBw&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=uthman%20ibn%20aqil&f=false

https://archive.org/details/akj9492.0001.001.umich.edu

http://www.amazon.com/Kamus-kecil-Uthman-Abdallah-Yahya/dp/B003R7JXL0

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-author=Uthman%20ibn%20Abdallah%20ibn%20Aqil%20ibn%20Yahya%20Alawi&page=1&rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3AUthman%20ibn%20Abdallah%20ibn%20Aqil%20ibn%20Yahya%20Alawi

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/browse?type=subject&index=15544&key=alawi%20uthman%20ibn%20abdallah%20ibn%20aqil%20ibn%20yahya&c=x

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/browse?type=lcsubc&key=%26%23x02bb%3bAlawi%2c%20%26%23x02bb%3bUthm%26amacr%3bn%20ibn%20%26%23x02bb%3bAbdall%26amacr%3bh%20ibn%2d%26%23x02bb%3bAq%26imacr%3bl%20ibn%2dYa%26%23x1e25%3bya&c=x

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/browse?type=lcsubc&key=%26%23x02bb%3bAlaw%26imacr%3b%2c%20%26%23x02bb%3bUthm%26amacr%3bn%20ibn%20%26%23x02bb%3bAbdall%26amacr%3bh%20ibn%20%26%23x02bb%3bAq%26imacr%3bl%20ibn%20Ya%26%23x1e25%3by%26amacr%3b%2c%20d%2e%201914&c=x

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/browse?type=author&index=5775&key=alawi%02%20uthman%20ibn%20abdallah%20ibn%20aqil%20ibn%20yahya%02%20d%201914&c=x

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupname?key=%26%23x02bb%3bAlaw%26imacr%3b%2c%20%26%23x02bb%3bUthm%26amacr%3bn%20ibn%20%26%23x02bb%3bAbdall%26amacr%3bh%20ibn%20%26%23x02bb%3bAq%26imacr%3bl%20ibn%20Ya%26%23x1e25%3by%26amacr%3b%2c%20d%2e%201914&c=x

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupname?key=%26%23x02bb%3bAlaw%26imacr%3b%2c%20%26%23x02bb%3bUthm%26amacr%3bn%20ibn%20%26%23x02bb%3bAbdall%26amacr%3bh%20ibn%20%26%23x02bb%3bAq%26imacr%3bl%20ibn%20Ya%26%23x1e25%3by%26amacr%3b%2c%20d%2e1914&c=x

Rajmaan (talk) 06:14, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is separate article for the entry 'Uthman bin Yahya' for that purpose.

--Buhadram (talk)

Title The Hadrami Awakening: Community and Identity in the Netherlands East Indies, 1900-1942 G - Reference,Information and Interdisciplinary Subjects Series Southeast Asia program publications Issue 28 of Studies on Southeast Asia Author Natalie Mobini-Kesheh Edition illustrated, reprint Publisher SEAP Publications, 1999 ISBN 0877277273, 9780877277279 Length 174 pages

http://books.google.com/books?id=c45Xvsq2q4UC&pg=PA52#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=c45Xvsq2q4UC&pg=PA53&dq=Van+den+Berg+noted+in+1886+that+despite+these+changes+in+social+relations+the+niceties+of+customs+recognizing+descent+from+the+Prophet+were+still+observed:+the+hands+of+sayyids+were+kissed,+they+were+seated+in+prominent+positions+in+any+gathering,+and+the+taboo+on+marriage+of+non-sayyids+to+sayyid+women+was+unquestioned.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=W4JRU8KsNsmqsASF2ID4Bw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Van%20den%20Berg%20noted%20in%201886%20that%20despite%20these%20changes%20in%20social%20relations%20the%20niceties%20of%20customs%20recognizing%20descent%20from%20the%20Prophet%20were%20still%20observed%3A%20the%20hands%20of%20sayyids%20were%20kissed%2C%20they%20were%20seated%20in%20prominent%20positions%20in%20any%20gathering%2C%20and%20the%20taboo%20on%20marriage%20of%20non-sayyids%20to%20sayyid%20women%20was%20unquestioned.&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=c45Xvsq2q4UC&pg=PA55&dq=The+case+concerned+a+woman,+the+daughter+of+a+sayyid,+who+was+living+as+a+concubine+with+a+Chinese.+Surkati+had+suggested+that+money+should+be+collected+from+the+local+Hadramis+in+order+to+release+her+from+such+shameful+circumstances,&hl=en&sa=X&ei=K4FRU_n0GPTHsATzpoHoDQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20case%20concerned%20a%20woman%2C%20the%20daughter%20of%20a%20sayyid%2C%20who%20was%20living%20as%20a%20concubine%20with%20a%20Chinese.%20Surkati%20had%20suggested%20that%20money%20should%20be%20collected%20from%20the%20local%20Hadramis%20in%20order%20to%20release%20her%20from%20such%20shameful%20circumstances%2C&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=c45Xvsq2q4UC&pg=PA55&dq=All+later+histories+of+al-Irshad+contain+a+version+of+this+event,+although+none+highlight+the+central+irony+that+the+sayyids+apparently+found+the+idea+of+one+of+their+women+marrying+a+non-sayyid+Hadrami+more+shameful+man+that+she+should+remain+the+concubine+of+a+non-Muslim+Chinese.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uYFRU-bAJMulsQTy9oGgDg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=All%20later%20histories%20of%20al-Irshad%20contain%20a%20version%20of%20this%20event%2C%20although%20none%20highlight%20the%20central%20irony%20that%20the%20sayyids%20apparently%20found%20the%20idea%20of%20one%20of%20their%20women%20marrying%20a%20non-sayyid%20Hadrami%20more%20shameful%20man%20that%20she%20should%20remain%20the%20concubine%20of%20a%20non-Muslim%20Chinese.&f=false

Sayyid سيد

السادة Al-Sādah

السادة العلويين

1913 Solo

السودانيون والعلويون Al-Sūdānīyūn wa'l-'Alawīyūn

الارشاد Al-Irshād (Al-Irsyad, Al-Irsjad, Al-Irshad)

October 14, 1920

pp. 2-3

Sheikh Ahmad bin Muhammad Surkati (Syeikh Ahmad Soorkattiy) (Sheikh Ahmad as-Soorkati al-Ansari) الشيخ أحمد بن محمد سوركتي

الشيخ أحمد محمد سوركتي الأنصاري

(1876-1943)

Jam'iyyah Khayr (Indonesia) جمعية الخير (اندونيسيا)

al-Irshād al-Islāmiyyah (Al-Irsyad Al-Islamiyah) الارشاد الاسلامية

Al-Irshad Al-Islamiya

Jam'iyat al-Islah wal Irshad al-Islamiyya

جمعية الإصلاح والارشاد الاسلامية

http://books.google.com/books?id=c45Xvsq2q4UC&pg=PA91#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.sudanelite.com/articles.php?action=show&id=6847

http://efiles.mediu.edu.my/mye-books/ACD/ستنا%20احمد.docx

http://efiles.mediu.edu.my/mye-books/ACD/ستنا احمد.docx

http://www.ashorooq.net/~media1/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=23616:2012-05-06-15-43-10&catid=39:2008-07-30-07-04-53&Itemid=31

http://books.google.com/books?id=0GrWCmZoEBMC&pg=PA215&dq=irshad+indonesian+newspaper&hl=en&sa=X&ei=J1dSU53sCcTNsQTokIKYDg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=irshad%20indonesian%20newspaper&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=F7nPMWdid1YC&pg=PA59&dq=irshad+indonesian+newspaper&hl=en&sa=X&ei=J1dSU53sCcTNsQTokIKYDg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=irshad%20indonesian%20newspaper&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=c45Xvsq2q4UC&pg=PA65&dq=irshad+indonesian+newspaper&hl=en&sa=X&ei=J1dSU53sCcTNsQTokIKYDg&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=irshad%20indonesian%20newspaper&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=YJibpHfnw94C&pg=PA33&dq=Surkati+marriage&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PldSU6TbFOa_sQSf2oJw&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Surkati%20marriage&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=IbhIAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA18&dq=Surkati+marriage&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PldSU6TbFOa_sQSf2oJw&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Surkati%20marriage&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=euR7-YfMyS4C&pg=PA196#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=zFWrHX_1-5sC&pg=PA24#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 06:21, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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It is very questionable to say the population of Indonesians with Arab ancestors to be 55 millions. Any valid sources to back the argument? If not, I will restore back the number to the one mentioned in the cited refs.

Buhadram (talk) 19:44, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted the edit that says the population is 5,000,000. If this is the correct and up-to-date number, please provide a valid reference.

Buhadram (talk)

5 millions of Indonesians of Arab ancestry is way too high compared to the more reliable source written in this "Indonesia's Population: Ethnicity and Religion in a Changing Political Landscape" which shows only 33,498 people of Arab descents in Indonesia in 2000. --80.246.32.33 (talk) 23:58, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Buhadram, I have restored the official census number, 87,227 (2005), representing people who identified themselves as ethnic Arabs.[1] I have also included an amount of "several million (speculated)", of people with partial Arab ancestry. With regard to the 5,000,000 number, the citation given for it is a blog post, which sources the number to an opinion given by the Minister of Religion Said Agil al Munawar at a seminar. Google translation:

"In the seminar which highlighted the role of Arab descendants in Indonesia, both in terms of religion, culture, economy and politics, the Minister of Religion Said Agil al Munawar, who was also of Arab blood, said that the number of Arab descendants in Indonesia was not less than five million, mostly from Hadramaut."[2]

This number is speculation by Said Agil al Munawar, and it is not verifiable. It is not known how many people in Indonesia may have partial Arab ancestry. The blog post goes on to say something like:

"Opinion similar to Prof LWC van den Berg, orientalists and Dutch law experts, who in 1884-1886 conducted research on Arabs in Hadramaut and in Indonesia."

However, the agreement with L.W.C. van den Berg is only on the point that the Arab population came mostly from Hadramaut, not on the population number. Van den Berg certainly did not make an estimate anywhere near 5,000,000 Arabs!! Although it's reasonable to believe there are a large number of people with partial Arab ancestry, it is not reasonable for Wikipedia to give a precise number such as 5 million without a more reliable and verifiable basis. It is definitely not acceptable to give the impression that there is a population of five million "Arabs", or "of Arab descent", as they are primarily of mixed descent of Indonesian with some Arab ancestry. --IamNotU (talk) 14:49, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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• Kampung Arab Ampel Surabaya 3.jpg
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You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]