Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Westerns

Westerns Project‑class

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Note that I have opened a move discussion to move List of Spaghetti Western films to List of spaghetti Westerns at Talk:List of Spaghetti Western films#Requested move 24 July 2023. This came up in discussion of moving pages/titles from "Western" to "western" and was supported by editors on both sides of that issue. The item at issue is that "spaghetti" is not a proper noun and per MOS:GENRECAPS should not be capitalized. So we're talking about noting "spaghetti Western" instead of "Spaghetti Western". This is consistent with other subgenres such as "contemporary Western", "revisionist Western", "science fiction Western", and others. The only time a subgenre would be capitalized would be if the name was a proper noun, such as Australian Western (but not "meat pie Western") or Florida Western (but not "cracker Western"). ButlerBlog (talk) 16:14, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have already edited the spaghetti Western article to reflect this (note it was mixed and not consistent before my edit, although there were more instances of "Spaghetti" than "spaghetti"). I noted this change on the talk page for discussion should anyone disagree with the change. ButlerBlog (talk) 16:16, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This makes sense, but I will continue to strongly object to Wikipedia's attempt to impose its rather arbitrary MoS stuff on Western as a genre. It seems ironic to me that a tertiary source like Wikipedia is so brazen in its attempts to override academic norms and standards. I suspect there might eventually be some fussing over "Science Fiction" versus "science fiction" (if it hasn't already happened), but at least we managed to hold the line here. Intothatdarkness 16:55, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just to note - it wasn't necessarily arbitrary. That move discussion started because the editor has a difference of opinion on capitalization and had made some of those page moves as noncontroversial based on his reading of MOS:GENRECAPS, which would lowercase any genre that is not a proper noun (and I agree with that). I had reverted those moves because my interpretation (and I assume yours as well) is that the GENRECAPS actually supports uppercase Western because it is a proper noun - it references the American West - a location, not a direction. So based on my revert, he had a right to open discussion to establish consensus, which is what he did. Anyway... I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, especially since we both agree on the end result. I just wanted to note that consensus discussions are not an attempt to impose something arbitrary (and if the item for discussion is arbitrary, it would certainly be shot down as lacking support from our guidelines). They're a key part of what we do here and participation is important, so thanks for your participation. ButlerBlog (talk) 18:16, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm referring to Wikipedia's rather arbitrary MoS guidelines and not that discussion in particular. I agree discussion can be important, but it can also be an echo chamber or bludgeon, depending. But that's my own discounted opinion, of course. And thanks for mentioning these discussions here. Intothatdarkness 18:37, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Teblick:, @Intothatdarkness:, @Carptrash:, @Paleface Jack:, @Jburlinson:, @Ejgreen77:, @Dr. Blofeld: Pinging editors who have contributed to Westerns to notify of move discussion per WP:APPNOTE. The above mentioned move discussion is taking place at: Talk:List of Spaghetti Western films#Requested move 24 July 2023 ButlerBlog (talk) 18:20, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I just replied there. Intothatdarkness 18:42, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Teblick:, @Intothatdarkness:, @Carptrash:, @Paleface Jack:, @Jburlinson:, @Ejgreen77:, @Dr. Blofeld: - Once again we have a move discussion that needs your attention at Talk:List of spaghetti Westerns#Requested move 30 August 2023. This is primarily a notice for interested parties to participate per WP:APPNOTE. However, I will say that I'm sorry to notify so soon after the previous two discussions, and I am of the opinion that the current discussion was improper. It should have been a WP:MRV discussion with the previous RM's closer as they feel the previous discussion was improperly closed. The main reason for bringing this up again is the importance of this discussion in the bigger picture of the Westerns project. If moved, this discussion becomes a backdoor to lowercasing "Westerns" across the board, which will change the long-standing consensus to uppercase it, affecting a multitude of page titles, categories, templates, and such that are named based on this. Of course, those are my opinions. If any of you are of the opinion that it should be lowercased, that's fine, too, as long as it is supported by policy, MOS, or sources - but I think that discussion should be had on a broad level rather than using a single article title. Regardless, please make sure that positions are well supported by policy. If you want to refer to the positions laid out in the previous recent discussions, the previous "spaghetti Western" move discussion is here with the larger multi-move discussion here. Thanks in advance for your attention, and hopefully, this will be the last one for a while (although if the outcome of this is to move, I'd expect that to lead to a new multi-move discussion to lowercase across the board). ButlerBlog (talk) 15:09, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, the article Spur Award for Best Drama Script has been proposed for deletion (WP:PROD). The first sentences summarize the subject this way:

• "The Spur Award is an annual literary prize awarded by the Western Writers of America."

Note that we also have an article for the Spur Awards in general; this article is just about the awards for best drama scripts.

The nominator wrote this summary of their concerns:

• "not notable"

If you agree or disagree with deletion, there are instructions on the deletion notice for what to do.

Thanks, --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 18:09, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rachel and the Stranger is a 1948 film that is set in early America (post Revolutionary war) in the Northwest Territory. For you who don't know what that is, it is a territory that existed from 1787-1803 and became the states of Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin and part of Minnesota. The reason I am mentioning it here is the article calls it a western. I don't think a film that takes place that early and is set east of the Mississippi, albeit in what was then a frontier, should be labeled as a western. I just thought I would throw this out to get a second (and maybe third) opinion before I changed it. Thanks. rogerd (talk) 17:37, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd think you could harmonize it with The Last of the Mohicans (1992 film) (both versions, actually). They're classed as action drama or historical action drama. Just my thought. Intothatdarkness 17:42, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While "frontier" films often find themselves dumped into the Westerns bucket for lack of a better genre categorization, it should be noted that the Western genre is not specifically limited to cowboy films. Yes, there is the classic Western, but the Western genre has specific themes and tropes that define the genre outside of the traditional setting of the Western US. That being said, I'm not familiar with the specific film in question. What does the AFI say about it? ButlerBlog (talk) 19:54, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At the end of last year's marathon discussions on capitalization of Westerns, the last attempt was withdrawn since we had had several discussions that ultimately closed with consensus not to move (it was a page move request that involved lowercasing, so, it was to not lowercase Westerns). This was endorsed by a move review request. A few short weeks later, there was an attempt to reopen discussion yet again. That was withdrawn as it was essentially too soon, but it was noted by the opener that he would bring it up again in March.

My position on this can vary, and I don't necessarily seek input specifically to support uppercasing. But, what I believe is important is that the discussion focus on Westerns as a whole genre, rather than individual page titles, which is being done essentially as a back door to leverage wholesale changes across the board. There also needs to be more involvement than just the MOS participants. If there is not broad participation for the genre as a whole, it's going to come up again and again.

I was hoping for some pre-participation from the Film project. So far, no replies. I'm not sure why that is - maybe venue. I am inviting discussion and input there, as this has wide reaching impact. A consensus to lowercase will require broad changes to this project. A consensus to uppercase will create a good deal of work as well as there is a lot of capitalization inconsistency throughout articles (mostly film articles).

If you have input on this - and I hope you do - please indicate such at that discussion rather than here (linked here): Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film#Seeking input on process (discussion about whether to have a discussion) ButlerBlog (talk) 15:43, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Meek's Cutoff (film)#Requested move 4 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:49, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]