Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/A-Class review

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Instructions
Requesting a review

To request the first A-Class review of an article:

  1. Please double-check the MILHIST A-class criteria and ensure that the article meets most or all of the five (a good way of ensuring this is to put the article through a good article nomination or a peer review beforehand, although this is not mandatory).
  2. If there has been a previous A-Class nomination of the article, before re-nominating the article the old nomination page must be moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Name of nominated article/archive1 to make way for the new nomination page.
  3. Add A-Class=current to the {{WPMILHIST}} project banner at the top of the article's talk page (e.g. immediately after the class= or list= field).
  4. From there, click on the "currently undergoing" link that appears in the template (below the "Additional information" section header). This will open a page pre-formatted for the discussion of the status of the article.
  5. List your reason for nominating the article in the appropriate place, and save the page.
  6. Add {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Name of nominated article}} at the top of the list of A-Class review requests below.
  7. Refresh the article's talk page's cache by following these steps. (This is so that the article's talk page "knows" that the A-class review page has actually been created. It can also be accomplished in the 2010 wikitext editor by opening the page in edit mode and then clicking "save" without changing anything, i.e. making a "null edit". )
  8. Consider reviewing another nominated article (or several) to help with any backlog (note: this is not mandatory, but the process does not work unless people are prepared to review. A good rule of thumb is that each nominator should try to review at least three other nominations as that is, in effect, what each nominator is asking for themselves. This should not be construed to imply QPQ).
Restrictions
  1. An article may be nominated a second (or third, and so forth) time, either because it failed a prior nomination or because it was demoted and is now ready for re-appraisal. There is no limit on how quickly renominations of failed articles may be made; it is perfectly acceptable to renominate as soon as the outstanding objections from the previous nomination have been satisfied.
  2. There are no formal limits to how many articles a single editor can nominate at any one time; however, editors are encouraged to be mindful not to overwhelm the system. A general rule of thumb is no more than three articles per nominator at one time, although it is not a hard-and-fast rule and editors should use their judgement in this regard.
  3. An article may not be nominated for an A-Class review and be a Featured article candidate, undergoing a Peer Review, or have a Good article nomination at the same time.
Commenting

The Milhist A-Class standard is deliberately set high, very close to featured article quality. Reviewers should therefore satisfy themselves that the article meets all of the A-Class criteria before supporting a nomination. If needed, a FAQ page is available. As with featured articles, any objections must be "actionable"; that is, capable of rectification.

If you are intending to review an article but not yet ready to post your comments, it is suggested that you add a placeholder comment. This lets other editors know that a review is in progress. This could be done by creating a comment or header such as "Reviewing by Username" followed by your signature. This would be added below the last text on the review page. When you are ready to add comments to the review, strike out the placeholder comment and add your review. For instance, strike out "reviewing" and replace it with "comments" eg:

Comments Reviewing by Username

Add your comments after the heading you have created. Once comments have been addressed by the nominator you may choose to support or oppose the nomination's promotion to A-class by changing the heading:

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If you wish to abstain from either decision, you may indicate that your comments have been addressed or not addressed. For instance:

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This makes it easy for the nominator and closer to identify the status of your review. You may also wish to add a closing statement at the end of your comments. When a nominator addresses a comment, this can be marked as {{done}} or {{resolved}}, or in some other way. This makes it easy to keep track of progress, although it is not mandatory.

Requesting a review to be closed

A nominator may request the review be closed at any time if they wish to withdraw it. This can be done by listing the review at ACRs for closure, or by pinging an uninvolved co-ord. For a review to be closed successfully, however, please ensure that it has been open a minimum of five days, that all reviewers have finalised their reviews and that the review has a minimum of at least three supports, a source review and an image review. The source review should focus on whether the sources used in the article are reliable and of high quality, and in the case of a first-time nominator, spot-checking should also be conducted to confirm that the citations support the content. Once you believe you have addressed any review comments, you may need to contact some of the reviewers to confirm if you have satisfied their concerns.

After A-Class

You may wish to consider taking your article to featured article candidates for review. Before doing so, make sure you have addressed any suggestions that might have been made during the A-class review, that were not considered mandatory for promotion to A-class. It can pay to ask the A-class reviewers to help prepare your article, or you may consider sending it to peer review or to the Guild of Copy Editors for a final copy edit.

Demotion

If an editor feels that any current A-class article no longer meet the standards and may thus need to be considered for demotion (i.e. it needs a re-appraisal) please leave a message for the project coordinators, who will be happy to help.

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Battle of Saipan

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Wtfiv (talk)

Battle of Saipan (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because The Battle of Saipan was one of the major battles in the 1941-1945 Pacific War, it's 80th anniversary is on 15 June 2024. I started with this article cleaning up references for one issue, and realized this article could use a major overhaul and expansion, particularly with sources, maps and images. I think it has come far enough for a peer review. To those who take a look, thank you. And I hope I have helped to make this topic interesting to you and other readers. Wtfiv (talk) 16:23, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nick-D

It's good to see this article on a key battle of World War II here. It needs a fair bit more work to reach A-class status though, and I have the following comments:

  • The sentence starting with 'The speed with which the Marshalls were occupied' is a bit over-complicated, and it would be good to note when the invasion was brought forward.
  • Sentence broken into two. This diff addresses adding original time of invasion. This diff adds the date when the Joint Chief of Staff brought the invasion forward to June. Wtfiv (talk) 07:24, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This section should also cover the assembly of the invasion force
  • The background section should also cover the pre-1944 history of Saipan
  • The 'Japanese defensive preparations' section doesn't really capture the importance the Japanese assigned to Saipan: they knew that it would become a dangerous B-29 base if captured
  • This section should also cover the overall Japanese plan for the defence of the Mariana Islands, including the plans to use aircraft and the IJN to defeat the US invasion fleet - this appears much later in the article
  • The 'Saipan's military geography' should note the climate
  • The Opposing forces section needs to be referenced, and there's inconsistencies in how the names of various senior officers are presented here.
  • "The attack took out nearly one-third of the 435 planes in Vice Admiral Kakuji Kakuta's 1st Air Fleet, which had been deployed to defend the Marianas" - this is the first time this force has been noted, despite there being a section focused on Japanese defences.
  • The grammar in the sentence starting 'It was had a wide gap just north of Charan Kanoa' is a bit off, and the sentence as a whole is over-complex
    • fixed grammar. Made sentence slightly longer, turning it into a list of three problems, but grammatical complexity should be reduced. If you'd like me to break it up, let me know.
  • It's confusing referring to the US divisions as the '27th Infantry', '2nd Marines', etc: these terms are usually used for regiments (especially in the USMC).
    • "Division" added to each unit when named: diff, (and minor diff to fix spelling error in first mention of "Division" in previous diff.)
  • The 'Aftermath' section should be reworked to avoid single paragraph sections
  • The 'Naval air dominance' section doesn't seem to add anything
  • The material on the use of Saipan as a B-29 base is confusing. This was always one of the main goals of the operation, reflecting long-term plans (the overarching strategy was to develop B-29 baes in the Marianas, with the operation in China always being a stop-gap until airfields in the islands were available). Reflecting this, airfield construction crews arrived fairly early in the piece. The article presents all of this as being a bit of an afterthought rather than central to the entire operation.
  • The material presenting one view of the importance of strategic bombing in the Japanese surrender is out of place, and this is a famously complex and debated topic so it's not NPOV to present only one view and not the others.
  • Are any of the links in the 'See also' section really needed? If these people played a significant role in the battle, they should be linked in the body of the article.
    • Deleted.
  • The number of photos seems excessive, and it would be good to left justify some of them
  • More maps could be added Nick-D (talk) 06:01, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • For this comment, I'd like to get a bit more help from you about the maps. The Battle of Saipan map has the frontlines at each section of the narrative, and labels all the places mentioned in the narrative. (Except Tanapag plain, which is mentioned in context as between Makunsha and Tanapag.) But I can see a reader may not want to keep clicking back to that map. I could certainly add more in the sections. Where would would you like to see them, How many is reasonable, and what level of focus (whole island, or zoom in to the front?) would you like to see? Wtfiv (talk) 02:50, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just to note regarding Hawkeye's great comments below, it's common for articles on battles of the Pacific War to need a surprising amount of material explaining how they fitted into each protagonist's strategy and the strategic situation. This is because most of the battles were essentially small stand-alone campaigns given the geography of the war (e.g. in comparison to the European theatre of the war where battles tended to occur in fairly rapid succession as part of general offensives and don't need as much introductory material). Nick-D (talk) 00:52, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks Nick-D. When first working on this article, I could see that authors quickly got caught up in the MacArthur-King tension. My goal is to keep discussion of it to a minimum: acknowledging it and getting the facts right but focusing on the invasion. Both you and Hawkeye have provided with more guidance to help me better navigate these complexities. I'll do my best to address your concerns without being enmeshed in the details. I'm sure you two will guide me where I need to work it out more. Wtfiv (talk) 02:50, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hawkeye7

This is excellent work by a skilled content creator, and I am surprised that I haven't encountered you before.

Thank you, Hawkeye7, for both the compliment and the feedback. I'll be one the road this coming week, so a bit slow in addressing most of the points raised until I get back. I'll first address Nick-D's. In particular, our bullet points 1, 2 and 4 look like they may take a bit more thinking through. Wtfiv (talk) 22:29, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's no rush. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:51, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • American strategic objectives
    • The second paragraph is not incorrect, but it is misleading, because this decision to give priority to the Central Pacific drive was taken in May 1943, before the Admiralty Islands, and the Gilbert and Marshall Islands campaigns referred to in the previous paragraph. For the record, CCS 417 (at Cairo) said: "The advance in the Pacific shall be simultaneous along both axes and shall be mutually supporting, that when conflicts in timing and allocation of means exist, due weight should be accorded to the fact that operations in the Central Pacific promise at this time a more rapid advance toward Japan and her vital lines of communication." (Hayes, p. 550) So priority, yes, but the acceleration of MacArthur's timetable under Reno IV undermined the rationale for it.
    • The third is even more misleading. King had decided that with the capture of the Gilberts and Marshalls, the Marianas would be the next objective. This goal been formally endorsed by the Allies at the Cairo Conference in November 1943, which set their invasion for 1 October 1944. This is incorrect. The Marianas were added to the objectives list (CCS 387) at Cairo,[1] but not immediately after; Ponape and Truk were to be secured first. (see Matloff, p. 377)
    • The invasion the Marianas, codenamed Forager,[22] was originally scheduled for October–November 1944. You have already said this in the previous paragraph.
    • The debate over the schedule in March 1944 is covered in Matloff pp. 455-459. The SWPA and POA staffs debated the issue at a conference in Pearl Harbor on 27-28 January 1944. Kenney, Kinkaid, Sutherland, Towers and Sherman all expressed reservations about the Marianas operation. Sherman felt it would be costly, and there were concerns about their suitability as a base given that they had no harbours. (see Hayes, pp. 545-548) Another conference was held in Washington in March, but there was still no decision on the Marianas vs Truk. (Hayes, p. 555) Sherman argued that the Marianas could be used to neutralise Truk. (Hayes, p. 556) As noted, JCS the decided on 12 March to invade the Marianas on 15 June. (Hayes, p. 560)
    • Although King was nominally CNO, this was an administrative role. His authority derived from being CinC US Fleet (COMINCH) and should be referred as such.
      • Done, see diff.
    • Although Nimitz was CinC Pacific Fleet (CINCPAC), in this context he should be referred to by his other role, as CinC Pacific Ocean Areas (CINCPOA).
      • Done, see diff above. May want to check if links are appropriate.
    • Recommend moving footnote b into the body. This is an important part of the campaign.
  • Japanese defensive preparations
    • fn 35 contains a stray bracket
    • " but most of their equipment ... were lost" was lost
    • " to defeat an invading force at the beaches, when the invading troops were most vulnerable" where the invading troops
    • Link defence in depth
    • "Other soldiers were stranded survivors headed to other islands when their ships were sunk" I Had difficult parsing this. I think you mean that they had been headed for other islands, but wound up on Saipan.
    • "the timing of the invasion surprised the Japanese, who thought they had until November to complete their defense" If you have the book, I would be interested in knowing what footnote 43 refers to.
    • " after the Japanese government had taken over Saipan from Germany in 1914." full stop instead of comma
    • "Saipan was the first island of the war " Can you rephrase this?
    • " large urban centers" Seems a bit of an exaggeration to me.
    • "civilians lived on the island primarily serving the sugar industry" comma after "island"
  • Opposing forces
    • I really, really don't like the use of abbreviations for ranks. Are bits that expensive?
    • Kelly Turner commanded TF 51, of which TF 52, which he also commanded, was a part. This should be added.
    • Source?
  • June 15: D-Day
    • Recommend moving the map in the Opposing forces section down to this section
    • Link star shell on first use
    • Suggest moving the first paragraph of "Japanese naval response" back into the "Japanese defensive preparations" section, and the other two into the "Battle of the Philippine Sea" to reduce disruption of the narrative.
  • June 16–20: Southern Saipan
    • First image is a red link for some reason.
    • "on June 20" should be "on 20 June"
    • "To prepare for the upcoming naval battle, the American transports continued to unload supplies and reinforcements throughout June 17." This is wrong; they would have done this anyway. Move the first phrase to the next sentence.
    • "On June 19-20" -> "on 19-20 June"
    • Suggest making "Battle of Philippine Sea" a separate section, as it is not part of Southern Saipan (or rename that section)
    • June 17 -> 17 June
  • 21-24 June: Central Saipan, initial attack
    • "Frustrated by what he saw as lack of progress by the 27th Division, Holland Smith relieved its commander, Major General Ralph Smith" 27th Division -> 27th Infantry Division, delete "Major General" Is it more American to use their middle initials as well?
    • June 22 -> 22 June
  • 25-30 June: Central Saipan, breakthrough
  • 1–6 July: Pursuit into northern Saipan
    • Move the last paragraph into the next section
  • 7–9 July: Gyokusai attack and battle's end
    • "On 11 July, the Americans found the body of general Saitō." -> "On 11 July, the Americans found Saitō's body"
    • "Though many civilians were able to surrender early in the battle.[269] surrender became more difficult as the battle moved into the northern mountains." Replace full stop with comma.
    • "The places they jumped from would become known as "Suicide Cliff" and "Banzai Cliff". You have forgotten to say that many committed suicide in this manner.
    • Delete the "Further resistance" heading; it is only one paragraph. (Consider moving the paragraph into the "Aftermath" section.)
    • Make "Casualties" its own section. Readers often go looking for this
  • Aftermath
    • "The capture of Saipan, along with MacArthur's victory in Hollandia, pierced the Japanese Exclusive National Defense Sphere." Except that on your map, Hollandia is not within it.
      • Yes, it had been moved to the west of New Guinea in April 1944 following the Take Ichi convoy disaster. Nick-D (talk) 22:03, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • fn 289, 308: page number?
  • Nothing on logistics. Sigh.

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:15, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Johann Mickl

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Schierbecker (talk)

Johann Mickl (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

This article failed a good article review in 2019 due to alleged POV issues because of unreliable sources. This is a routine A-class review to determine if this article still meets the A-Class criteria. Schierbecker (talk) 18:30, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. As I mentioned in the MILHIST talk about these articles, my view is that very odd rationales were taken by a group of editors during the GAR, especially about sources, and even extending to generic images used in the article. I acknowledge some flowery language needed trimming, but most of the criticisms were not based on policy but some weird ideology that the man was being glorified because he had an article that mentioned anything other than the war crimes of his division. This was widespread across many articles about the German war effort at the time and coincided with and preceded the ArbCom case. The article needs some work due to the unjustified deletions, but (for example) the idea that a biography co-written by the historian Heinz A. Richter (who was selected to write Mickl's article in the Neue deutsche Biographie) is unreliable, is utter nonsense. Both sources that were challenged as unreliable were listed by Richter as sources he used to write the NdB article on Mickl. If they are good enough for NdB, they are good enough for WP. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:45, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PM - just one other question on Schraml - does Richter use this source heavily and/or refer to it positively or just use it lightly? As an example of my line of thinking, I've seen a lot of sources, including ones we'd consider highly reliable, cite the works of John Newman Edwards to some extent but I don't think we'd ever want to rely on Edwards on enwiki. I don't see why Richter should be considered unreliable at all and would just like a little more clarification on Schrmal. Hog Farm Talk 23:37, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi HF, regarding Schraml. This is an example of a participant-written history, where a source should only be used for what it is reliable for. Franz Schraml headed the Kameradschaft of the German-Croat divisions, i.e. the veteran’s organization of the three divisions that were manned mainly by Croats but had predominantly German cadre (368th, 373rd and 392nd). His book covers these three divisions. Participant-written histories are a valuable source of information of units, for example, Cecil Lock's battalion history of the 10th Battalion (Australia) is used heavily in that article, despite the fact that Lock was a private soldier in the battalion, and a wheelwright by trade. The same applies to Frank Allchin's history of the 2/10th Battalion (Australia), Allchin was the battalion quartermaster and a clerk by trade. Neither was a historian. For plain factual information, such as where the unit deployed and when, which battles it fought and where, how many casualties it suffered in those battles, the names of commanding officers and those who were decorated, both of these books are outstanding sources. For critical analysis of operations those battalions undertook, not so much. For that we go the Charles Bean's official history of Australia in WWI, or Gavin Long's official history of Australia in WWII, or history books about specific battles. So far as Schraml is concerned, it is my view that he is fine to use for the sorts of things that one might use Lock or Allchin for, but not for the sorts of critical analysis that Bean or Long might provide. So to say that he is entirely unreliable and cannot be used for anything at all is just nonsense. Schraml's accounts of the outcomes of battles, especially where we know the Germans often counted civilians murdered in reprisals as enemy casualties, must be clearly attributed and contrasted with accounts from Partisan sources, for example. The same applies to Kobe (who was Mickl's principal operations officer) and although their relationship may have been difficult at times, obviously held him in some regard. My point here is that the labelling of Schraml and Richter & Kobe as entirely unreliable sources is nonsense, and should not be used as a justification for downgrading the article. All that said, this was written fairly early in my WP career (2015) and I have learned a lot since then, and even with some of the deleted material reinstated it needs some considerable work, trimming flowery stuff and attributing Schraml and Kobe where needed. I wouldn't nominate it for GA in its current condition, mainly because it was butchered by an editor who was on a crusade at the time. I'm not against it being downgraded to B, but it should be for the right reasons (probably lack of comprehensiveness, a few areas where better sources are needed, and some balance issues), not some weird ideas about the sources. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:50, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, strongly leaning towards delisting I know nothing about this person, but it's surprising that the material on his lengthy and fairly senior service in the fighting in Yugoslavia makes little reference to the civilian population of the area: it's like the war was being fought in a desert or similar. Given that civilians are central in all partisan warfare and atrocities against civilians were common in this fighting, this doesn't seem credible unless there are sources explaining the matter. The tone of the article as a whole is similar, and never acknowledges the political and criminal aspects of the war Mickl was involved in. Likewise, there appears to be no material on his views towards the rise of the Nazis and the resulting Nazi-led government. This doesn't reflect the way in which modern biographies of senior(ish) German officers of World War II are written, and I don't think the article would pass an A-class review now in its current form. Nick-D (talk) 01:57, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear Nick-D, I agree. It isn't A-Class, desperately needs context, and I wouldn't nominate it at GAN as it is now, for that and other reasons. My point is about the identified sources and their uses. ie the reason for delisting, not whether it should be. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:13, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, I'm not disagreeing with your views above, and I'm not at all competent to comment on the references here. If the sources are reliable but not sufficient for the article meet modern A-class bio standards, then the article likely wouldn't pass a nomination. From looking in Google Books, it seems that the English language literature on Mickl is largely lowish quality works on his role as an armoured commander. Nick-D (talk) 02:38, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Henry Biard

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): UndercoverClassicist (talk)

Henry Biard (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Henry Biard was an early British pilot - aviator's certificate number 218 - and flew in both world wars, but became a national hero for his victory in the 1924 Schneider Trophy seaplane race. He was a close colleague and friend of R. J. Mitchell at Supermarine, where he served as chief test pilot between 1919 and 1928. A colourful character of the old school -- fond of a tall tale (not least his own autobiography, which imposes some interesting challenges of sourcing), not shy of speaking his mind, and every ounce the dashing airborne daredevil. Perhaps ironically given present company, Biard never seemed to take much to military life: he fairly literally crashed out of the Royal Flying Corps just before the First World War, had a fairly uneventful time with the Royal Naval Air Service, and seems to have spent the Second World War doing communications flights. Having recently passed GA, this article may be bound for FAC at some point, and I'd be grateful for some MilHist expertise on the military and technical side of it: almost none of this subject-matter falls into my usual areas of expertise. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:31, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HF

I'll try to review this over the weekend. Hog Farm Talk 17:39, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Do we know anything about his reasons for initially joining the military in 1913? Or anything about why he resigned the next year?
    • I'd imagine he says (or makes up) something in his autobiography (but see final point below) -- I've failed to find a copy, sadly, and it's out of print. If you take his story about being crashed by Trenchard as true (I must admit that I don't think I do), that probably played a role in it! UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:20, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • " On 2 December 1917, Biard was commissioned into the Royal Naval Air Service" - is it known if this was a volunteer decision or conscription?
    • I don't: do the dates suggest the latter? My thought would be that it's pretty late to volunteer, but then equally I can see how his work training civilian pilots (presumably, who often then enlisted) could have been seen (at least by him) as war work of a sort. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:20, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He is believed to have undergone training at the RNAS's flight school in Vendôme, France." - is this a generally held belief, or that of a specific author?
    • Bertram gives it as "it is believed" -- I don't suppose you know anything about RNAS flight training? I failed to find much background information; I assume this was simply what usually happened? UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:20, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Passaleva suffered from vibration caused by his propellor, which was beginning to delaminate after being immersed in water the previous day: however, the competition rules forbade him from changing it" - I tend to think this would read smoother if split into two sentences at the colon
  • "but suggested that airflow over the wings may have interfered with the aircraft's elevators and tailplanes, causing aileron flutter." - link aileron
  • We have "The 1926 competition was for aircraft under 176 pounds (80 kg) that could fly with the greatest load-to-fuel ratio carried over courses that totalled 2,000 miles (3,200 km)" in a footnote, but then later, describing the aircraft entered into this challenge, we have the statement "The aircraft, 130 pounds (59 kg) heavier and 7 miles per hour (11 km/h) slower than the Sparrow I,". Did the Sparrow I really weigh 36 pounds or less? This seems unrealistic
    • Pegram messed that one up a bit: it's engine weight, not total weight, and it was 170lb. Fixed from another source. Good spot -- I'd missed that, but it was a bit silly! UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:20, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it known when he married?
    • I'd assume it's in Wings, but I only managed to find indirect references to his being married: I couldn't even find the wife's name. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:20, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • For FA status, you're going to need to be able to defend what makes The Channel Islands and the Great War pass the higher bar of high-quality reliable source
    • It's a tricky one: Bertram's a local historian and seems to be a good one, but he isn't a "proper" university-based academic. My sense is that the Ur-source for these pages is Biard's autobiography, Wings, which is out of print (and has its own problems!): in an ideal world, I'd like to get hold of a copy and cross-reference everything, and would probably be able to get rid of this website that way. I think everything cited there is relatively pedestrian and the sort of thing that we assume could be easily enough found out and verified by a local historian (e.g. the dates at which he was at school: we'd expect that to be in a school archive, even if we can't ourselves easily access it). Not an ideal situation, granted: there's an essay somewhere about how we sometimes have to fall back on the best available sources, and that feels like the situation we're in here. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:20, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My biggest concern here is not related to article quality so much but more placement of this in A-Class review. See note #3 at WP:MILHIST - Military service does not in and of itself place an individual within the scope of the project—particularly in the case of service in modern militaries. To qualify them, an individual's military service must have been somehow noteworthy or have contributed—directly or indirectly—to their notability. and Biard's military service seems rather incidental to his primary notability as an aircraft tester for private industry. Hog Farm Talk 21:35, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Honestly, I wouldn't have any disagreement with that -- I hadn't clocked it when going through the instructions. Appreciate your time so far: if it's felt that the article is ineligible for review here, I'm happy to withdraw it. On the off-chance, though: I wondered if you could give me a sanity check for the Second World War paragraph in the later life section? In particular, I've found that he was briefly moved to the General Duties branch of the RAF (shortly after the Battle of Britain), but am not sure if we can say anything useful from that about what he was doing. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:20, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with 20th century UK military systems either - I'm mainly familiar with the mid-19th century United States. Hog Farm Talk 01:26, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Zawed might be able to shed light on some of the RAF stuff. Hog Farm Talk 23:38, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        • Chipping in here, it is my understanding (note that I don't profess to be a specialist on the RAF so may be wrong here) that General Duties were 'frontline' personnel - pilots, other flying personnel, ground crew, staff and admin people whereas the Administrative and Special Duties Branch were older personnel fulfilling an admin, e.g. payroll, or a research role. That doesn't quite fit in with him being a communications pilot for the first 12 or so months of the war though. I wonder if the source is confused, and the period in the GD branch was when he was in that pilot role. Zawed (talk) 09:05, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
          Hi Zawed -- thanks for chipping in with this. His service (see Discussion on the project page) has this kind of sequence:
          • Starting off in "admin duties"
          • Then moving to flying duties in the "Ferry Pilots Pool" (I assume that means flying people/things around the place?),
          • Then a few posts with the refuelling section (presumably what it says on the tin?),
          • Then some work as a "permanent duty pilot" at Northolt (could that be combat service?)
          • A short post at Bridgenorth for "No. 21 Fly: Control Course" (training or being trained?)
          • PDP at Penrhos (again seems to have been a training base: instructing?)
          • Two posts at different AGS (Air Gunners' School or Aircrew Grading School) -- presumably instructing in some capacity.
          • A couple more admin duties from late 1943, which would chime with an imminent departure for health reasons.
          Any thoughts on any of that? There's no indication from his later life that he was physically disabled (though equally there's no record of him flying professionally after the war): do you have any idea of what it would have taken for an officer to leave the RAF in 1944 for health reasons? UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:49, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hawkeye7

  • Typo: "propellor"
  • Convert horsepower to Watts?
  • "the story was reported in the The Scotsman." Do wee need two "the"s?
  • I fixed two CS1 warnings
  • Any details about his marriages? (I found his divorce)

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Magnificent on the marriages -- one of his service records has the date of his marriage, but no name. We can probably do something like "Biard married on 1 July 1914. In 1936, he divorced his wife, Simone...", which doesn't definitively say that they were the same person. I'd imagine the date of marriage is on the document: I'm not in a position to get to Kew in the near future, unfortunately, but I'll try to get a look at it if I'm ever there. UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:25, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is always frustrating. If he were an Australian, his service record would be online, as would the newspapers and the registry of births, deaths and marriages. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:03, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've got the service record, usefully, but the "wife's name" field is blank -- despite there being a date entered for his marriage! One thought that hadn't yet occurred to me: I might see if there are any local newspapers around that date: it wouldn't be unusual to post an announcement in there. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:12, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Jozo Tomasevich

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (talk)

Jozo Tomasevich (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Jozo Tomasevich was a Yugoslav-American economist and historian whose works on Yugoslavia in WWII continue to be widely cited today despite his first book on the Chetniks being published nearly fifty years ago. It is a tragedy that he died before completing the third volume of his planned series on Yugoslavia in WWII which was to be focussed on the Partisans. Even his second volume had to be published posthumously in 2001, with editing by his daughter. I have used his works right across my WP contributions on WWII on Yugoslavia, and his work forms the foundation on which many more recent historians have built. This is my second nom of a historian of WWII in Yugoslavia after Radoje Pajović which is now an FA. Have at it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nick-D

I'm surprised that this interesting and accessible article hasn't attracted any reviews so far: here's mine:

  • The first sentence of the lead is rather long - do we need "and after his retirement was appointed professor emeritus of economics at San Francisco State University" in this sentence given that it already establishes that he was an academic?
  • The sentence starting with " Positively reviewed by scholars such as " would probably work better as two sentences
  • More broadly, the material in the lead noting reviews of the books seems out of place: just say it was well reviewed or similar
  • "He became an American citizen" - do we know when?
  • The 'Scholarship' section would benefit by being broken up into sub-sections
  • It would be interesting to know how Tomasevich conducted research into Yugoslavia from California: I imagine accessing resources would have been challenging.
  • "and as of 2024, remains unpublished" - it's tricky citing statements like this, but the reference here dates from 2003. Nick-D (talk) 02:29, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pendright

Placeholder - I'll start when the above review is completed. Pendright (talk) 00:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Battle of Plum Point Bend

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Hog Farm (talk)

Battle of Plum Point Bend (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

A fairly confusing ACW naval action. The Confederates launch a surprise attack against early riverine ironclads using "cottonclad" ramships. The plan actually worked because the Union vessels were largely unprepared. While two ironclads were sunk, the action accomplished nothing of long-term significance and the two ironclads were back in service in less than two months. Hog Farm Talk 01:36, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Nick-D

This article is in great shape, and is an interesting read. I have the following comments:

  • "had pushed downriver to Fort Pillow." - I'd suggest giving a rough location for the fort
    • Added
  • "and had developed a routine of having a single mortar boat guarded by an ironclad take a position further downriver to bombard the fort, while the rest of the fleet was upriver" - this is a bit hard to follow
    • rephrased
  • "The naval component of the Federal effort was commanded by Andrew H. Foote" - did he hold a military rank? If so, please add it
    • Added
  • I'd suggest moving the map into the 'battle' section, and/or left justifying it: it appears in the section after the battle on my monitor
    • Have moved this around a bit; both the map and the Currier & Ives image were added by another editor and I never got around to re-arranging
  • The para starting with 'A shot from Carondelet' is somewhat lengthy
    • Split
  • I'd suggest swapping the order of the second and third last paras of the article. Nick-D (talk) 03:14, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Nick-D I'm not sure that I agree with this one - at least to me, it makes sense to finish all discussion of Plum Point Bend before moving on to the rest of the campaign for control of the upper Mississippi, but I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise. Hog Farm Talk 01:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Sorry for my very slow response here. My comments have been addressed. Nick-D (talk) 00:57, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:50, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hawkeye7 - Thanks for taking a look! I've fixed the licensing. Hog Farm Talk 23:05, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All good - passing. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:07, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

  • The articles uses reputable sources that accurately represent the relevant body of published knowledge
  • All sources are well-formatted
  • Spot checks: 6, 7, 22a, 50 - okay

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:50, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator comment - I am aware that based on discussions elsewhere, I need to change the nomenclature used here from "Federal" to "Union". I intend on doing this but I am in the process of moving so I won't be able to get to this right away. Hog Farm Talk 23:41, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pendright

@Hog Farm: Placeholder - aware of Federal vs. Union Pendright (talk) 22:21, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm: Second thoughts: Would you rather I waited until you substitute Union for Federal, or I could do it during the course of my review? Your call! Pendright (talk) 20:18, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Pendright: - either one works for me. I'm out of town for work this week and won't be able to get to anything until late Saturday or maybe even Sunday. I still need to finish up work at Big Black River Bridge too. Hog Farm Talk 00:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: Okay, then, I'll substitute them as I progress through the review.
@Hog Farm: I have decided to renege on my offer to review this article. I've changed Federal to Union for only the Lead and Background sections. All the best - Pendright (talk) 22:07, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No worries! I'll get this switched over myself. Hog Farm Talk 23:17, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Fort McKavett State Historic Site

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Vami IV (talk)

Fort McKavett State Historic Site (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

This is another Texas fort and, briefly, island of Anglo-American settlement in the West Texas plains. Here's to a sixth A-class! –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 22:54, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

HF - support

I'll review this later this week. Hog Farm Talk 01:37, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Texas was annexed by the United States of America in 1845,[4] which led to the start of the Mexican-American War the next year" - isn't this a bit of the over-simplification of the causes of the Mexican War? Maybe which was one of the main causes of the Mexican-American War the next year or something like that
  • Yes and no. Annexation itself can be said to be and to not be the main cause of the war, because what Texas was was a breakaway Mexican territory that legitimized its independence with a treaty that the post-pre-Santa Anna Mexican government refused to recognize. And then after annexation, Polk parked US Army soldiers in disputed territory to back up the claim to the Nueces strip. The Mexican Army attacking those soldiers was what enabled Polk to secure war from Congress and toss Mexico out of what is now the state of Texas. But while that could be considered the cause, those troops were there because of the annexation. Suffice to say, I believe the current wording of "led to the ... war" is apt. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 22:25, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was thinking more of the idea that I've read (don't remember where) that the US was basically looking for a pretext to fight Mexico and then get a landgrab after the war but that's well beyond the scope of this article; what's in the article is fine. Hog Farm Talk 01:09, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and in the treaty that ended the war in 1848 annexed what is presently the Southwestern United States.[5] The next year, gold was discovered in California, enticing an unprecedented number of white migrants to go west, across Texas" - I'd recommend tweaking this a little bit. The major immigration happened in the following year (1849), but wasn't the Sutter's Mill gold find in 1848, the same year as the treaty?
  • Oh, true. Tweaked as directed. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 22:25, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • " In 1851, General Persifor Frazer Smith, commander of the Department of Texas, " - it is possible to use Smith's exact rank? While this wasn't a formal rank in the US Army in 1851, simply "General" is a term that formally refers to a specific four-star rank today (and also in CS Army).
  • Yes, I think so. According to the Handbook of Texas, he should be a brevetted Major General in 1851 (added). Ah, hm. Old Army in Texas, page 114, lists Smith as a Colonel. 22:25, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
  • "In 1855, the US Army signed a 20-year lease of the land the fort occupied " - do the sources indicate if this is just a paper formality, intergovernmental dealings, or did somebody actually own this land at the time?
  • I believe it was owned but I no longer have Sullivan 1981 to hand. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 22:25, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • This doesn't seem overly important; I checked the libraries local to me to see if any of them had a copy but none do. Hog Farm Talk 01:09, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • as part of Wikipedia Library Project MUSE, The Old Army in Texas: A Research Guide to the U.S. Army in Nineteenth Century Texas by Wooster & Smith has some more detail on units stationed at the fort - it gives a listing of what units provided the garrison in each year
  • Oh, I have that book now! I'll see what I can sprinkle in with it. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 22:25, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Confederates briefly used the fort as a POW camp
  • Ah yes. As I recall, this was the only source I am aware that alleges that McKavett was a PoW camp. Every other one I consulted said that the Confederate/Texas frontier forces were minuscule and fairly mobile. They did camp at abandoned US Army forts during the war, but didn't dig back in at most. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 22:25, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • this by North Texas University has a throwaway mention of "Fort McKavett [...] was operated briefly as a Civil War POW camp" but no footnote of course. That Texas state historic site website is sourced to someone's 1890s memoir so not great there. I've searched in the relevant volume of the ORs and McKavett isn't mentioned by name. Some stuff that I wouldn't consider to be reliable enough suggests that the POW camp aspect was holding one company of the 8th Infantry for a couple months. This is barely verifiable and quite miniscule so on second thought I don't think this warrants a mention given the shaky level of sourcing that can be turned up. Hog Farm Talk 01:09, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Fort McKavett was nominated for inclusion on the National Register of Historic Places on June 18, 1969, and was included on July 6, 1971" - infobox has July 14, 1971

I think that's it from me for a general content perspective. Hog Farm Talk 15:08, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Vami, I've left a couple replies above - I'm fine with the article as is on both points. Please let me know when you're done looking over the Wooster & Smith source. Hog Farm Talk 01:09, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All done now. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 15:38, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Harrias

  • Consider archiving online sources.
  • "Frazer, Robert Walter (1965)" pre-dates ISBNs. It looks like the version you are citing is a 1972 reprint of the 1965 edition, so should take |year=1972 |orig-year=1965.
  • MOS:YEARRANGE prefers year ranges to be written out in full, ie. YYYY–YYYY, not YYYY–YY; this should be changed in various places.
  • Rephrase to avoid the WP:EASTEREGG link on "a presidio": I expected it to wikilink to a page explaining what a presidio was, but instead it took me to the specific one.
  • "Construction of the post began immediately and saw rapid progress as though there were.." Need a comma after "as".
  • "..for Texas settlements." Would this not be better written as "..for Texan settlements."?
  • "..and the return of the US Army to Texas as on June 19, 1865.." I don't think the "as" is needed here?
  • "..Sherman narrowly missed being killed.." Another WP:EASTEREGG link.
  • "..who arrived at the fort in 1881." To help with clarity and tense, recommend "..who had arrived.."
  • "..established a 1 mile (1.6 km) to its north." Either remove the "a" or the "1".
  • "..but wound up with.." isn't very encyclopaedic language.
  • "..for Fort McKavett C.S.A..." Do we know what C.S.A. stands for? And unless there is an exceptional reason, space out the initials per our MOS.
  • "..during its military operated were.." This should be "operation", not "operated".
  • I find the title of the article curious; the vast majority of the article is about Fort McKavett, only the Preservation section and the first sentence of the subsequent Grounds and architecture section seem to be about Fort McKavett State Historic Site. It doesn't affect the ACR, but I'd recommend a page move once it is complete.

That's it from me. Harrias (he/him) • talk 21:31, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • All done. Some embarrassing mistakes you highlighted here. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 07:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I made a small edit to fix the Frazer short citation. The year range issue remains outstanding, however as the A-class criteria states "does not require substantial copy-editing to be fully MoS-compliant", I'm happy to support this irrespective. Nice work. Harrias (he/him) • talk 08:40, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

Four images only:

- all images are appropriately licenced. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:29, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

  • The articles uses reputable sources that accurately represent the relevant body of published knowledge
  • All sources are well-formatted
  • Spot checks: 2, 9a, 65a, 69 - okay

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:29, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@WP:MILHIST coordinators: - Vami IV has sadly passed on - User talk:Vami IV#Condolences. I will try to take this one on; it is in very good shape and shouldn't require much more work for promotion. Hog Farm Talk 19:22, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good on you, HF. Put yourself down as co-nom; I think we'd also need to discount your support if you take over, unless any other coords have another opinion -- if so you could just collapse your comments. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 19:43, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Under the circumstances, I don't see the need for this. The support can stand. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:33, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Zawed – comments

Feedback as follows:

  • In the First Occupation by the US Army section, it says "In 1855, the US Army signed a 20-year lease of the land the fort occupied...": who was the land leased from?
  • Construction of the post began immediately: because of the different dates mentioned in the first paragraph, it is not immediately clear when this was. Could we say something like "Once the site on the south bank of the San Saba had been decided upon, construction of the post began immediately..."?
    • Or is it referring to immediately after the lease had been signed? I don't know. Alexander and Utley only supports the " as though there were no local civilian professionals to assist construction, there was a local abundance of usable stone and timber" part of this sentence and I can't access Sullivan.Hog Farm Talk 14:48, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Use by Confederate Texas, 1861–65 section, it says "...career soldier Benjamin McCulloch. McCulloch passed...": could this be rephrased to avoid back-to-back mention of McCulloch?
    • I've changed where the sentences split and have done some rewording to avoid this. Hog Farm Talk 14:48, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...began regular patrols for and pursuit of raiding indigenous peoples: this "for and" wording seems really odd to me.
    • Comment: I suspect the "patrols for and purusit" means something like "patrols to locate and pursue". FWIW Donner60 (talk) 01:57, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've gone with an adjusted version of Donner's phrasing (patrols to locate and/or pursue). Hog Farm Talk 14:48, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...subsequently issued orders for more aggressive measures against the Plains Nations. Maybe put a link to [Plains Indians] on Plains Nations?
    • I've put in a piped link. Hog Farm Talk 14:48, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "Grounds and architecture" section seems odd to me. The first sentence could finish off the previous section, while the rest could be integrated into the "Use as military outpost" section.
    • This is done now. Hog Farm Talk 14:48, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for me. Zawed (talk) 10:03, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: Please note that a response to Zawed's comments should bring this one to a favorable close. Donner60 (talk) 01:57, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Zawed: - all the rest are addressed except for the first two, which I cannot resolve without access to Sullivan. Unfortunately, the nominator has passed on and the nearest publicly held copy of Sullivan to me is about 150 miles away. Hog Farm Talk 14:48, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: @Zawed: I have added a ref note, citing the 1934 Crimmins article, that several persons claimed ownership of the land but the government paid a man named Robinson for the lease.
Since the camp had been moved several times, and the sentence about construction "following immediately" is in the text right after the mention of the lease, it might be logical to assume that construction on the fort did not begin until after the lease was signed. Some doubt may be shed on this becaue Crimmins wrote a series of articles in The Southwestern Historical Quarterly from 1947 to 1950 in which he provided edited notes from Lt. Colonel W. G. Freeman's Report on the Eighth Military Department from his inspection trip in 1853. In Crimmins, M. L. “W. G. Freeman’s Report on the Eighth Military Department (Continued).” The Southwestern Historical Quarterly, vol. 53, no. 3, 1950, pp. 308–19. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/30235631. Accessed 17 Mar. 2024. Page 308, Freeman's report on Fort McKavett, which he inspected on August 19, 1853. On this page Freeman notes that lumber has been cut and within 30 miles all necessary wood for construction can be found. Yet on pages 308-309, Freeman said the buildings "are put up of stone."
A camp being established, a few miles away, in March 1852 and then moved would appear to rule out a March 1852 date for the beginning of construction. Some doubt on the 1855 date for construction of the fort not beginning until after the lease was signed does not appear to correspond with Freeman's language about stone buildings being put up. But I note another possibility that I can surmise in the next comment.
Perhaps the construction after the signing date after the lease could be based on the full structures with all the wood needed for completion installed not being started until after the lease was signed which could justify the 1855 date, though the inspection report could be read to specify an interim date.
This is the only information I could find about the date of beginning of the construction. The bottom line is that I could not find what I would consider a definite, specific statement concerning the date construction began. Maybe it is given in Sullivan or some other source - or maybe what I found is all that can be found and the date was some time between March 1852 and the signing of the lease. Donner60 (talk) 04:30, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Battle of Big Black River Bridge

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Hog Farm (talk)

Battle of Big Black River Bridge (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

A brief, and rather lopside, battle during the Vicksburg campaign. The Confederate commander, Pemberton, was concerned about Loring's divison, which had been isolated from the rest of the army during the retreat from the Battle of Champion Hill the day before. To hold a bridgehead east of the Big Black River, Pemberton positioned Bowen's division, which had been mauled the day before, and then Vaughn's brigade of inexperienced conscripts from a region hostile to the Confederacy. McClernand's Union corps appears and deploys in front of the Confederate line. One Union brigade commander on the far right, Lawler, moves his troops into an old river meander, and then unleashes a 3-minute charge that routs Vaughn. The remainder of the Confederates fled to avoid being cut off, and roughly 1,750 Confederates and 18 cannon are captured. Hog Farm Talk 01:46, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Harrias

Nice to see you around and submitting articles for review again!

  • Ref #57 should have a "p" rather than "pp".
    • Fixed
  • Ref #64 should have a "pp" rather than "p".
    • Fixed
  • Ref #83 should have a "pp" rather than "p".
    • Fixed
  • Consider archiving online sources.
    • Done
  • "..important city of Vicksburg, Mississippi was still.." While I know you think MOS:GEOCOMMA is a "load of crock", it remains part of the MOS :P
    • Added
  • "A Union attack on December 29, was defeated decisively.."}} No need for that comma.
    • Removed; I find myself guessing a lot as to if a comma is needed or not
  • Conversely, I think "On April 29, the Union Navy's Mississippi Squadron commanded by David Dixon Porter attempted to bombard.." would benefit from commas around "commanded by David Dixon Porter".
    • commas added
  • "..on May 14, with the Union taking the city.." Consider rephrasing to avoid the noun plus -ing construction.
    • Repheased
  • "..to prevent Loring from being cut off of from the main.."}} To many words. Remove the of?
    • Removed "of"
  • Wl "enfilade" to Enfilade and defilade
    • Done
  • "This position was manned by.." This sentence feels weird for two reasons; first starting a paragraph like this makes it feel like a run-on from the previous paragraph, so maybe the paragraph structure needs adjusting. Secondly, the final sentence of the previous paragraph also started "This position.."
    • Rephrased
  • "..considered this unit to be his best troops.." Maybe switch "to be" to "to contain" or "to comprise".
    • This has been rephrased already by Nick-D to remove "troops" - is it better now
  • "Vaughn's men and the 4th Mississippi were position in an area.." Should be "positioned".
    • Fixed
  • "..with Benton's men taking up.." Again, consider rephrasing to avoid the noun plus -ing construction.
    • Rephrased
  • "One of Green's regiments, the 1st Missouri Cavalry Regiment (dismounted) had remained.."}} Needs a comma after "(dismounted)".
    • Added
  • "Lindsey advanced his brigade ahead along the railroad.." "ahead" feels redundant to "advanced" (particularly as it goes on to say "placing his men ahead of the rest of the Union line."
    • Removed "ahead"
  • "..and had three regiments |}the.." Stray code, should it be an endash to match the one later?
    • Fixed; that's what happens when you type {{end}} instead of {{snd}}
  • Wikilink "swale"; I had no idea what it meant.
    • I've rephrased to avoid the word - I wasn't using it as a technical term and instead in a sense of a generic depression in the ground. The link for it uses it as more of a technical term, so I don't really want to link it. I guess maybe it's an Americanism?
  • "This advance was accomplished without significant numbers of casualties." You could probably get rid of "numbers of" if you wanted.
    • Done
  • "..with men either running away or surrendering." Again, consider rephrasing to avoid the noun plus -ing construction.
    • Done
  • "..which has been positioned.." Should be "had", not "has".
    • Fixed
  • Switched back up to the lead: "After defeating Confederate forces in several battles intermediate battles.." Too many words.
    • Removed a stray word

A nice piece of work. Nothing major identified, just copy edits really. Harrias (he/him) • talk 09:46, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Harrias: - Thanks for the review! Replies are above - everything should be addressed now. As is probably obvious, grammar/syntax/spelling is not my strong suit. Hog Farm Talk 05:03, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, nice work, I'm happy with the changes made. Harrias (he/him) • talk 12:27, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Nick-D

This article is in good shape, and I have only minor comments:

  • "Bowen's men had been roughly handled at Champion Hill" - I'd suggest using more specific language here
    • I've clarified this
  • "Pemberton decided that Johnston's orders were not compatible with previous directives that Pemberton had received" - I'd suggest replacing the second 'Pemberton' with 'he' or similar. More broadly, 'Pemberton' probably appears too many times in this para.
    • I've edited out three of the uses of Pemberton in this paragraph
  • "from a region disloyal to the Confederacy" - perhaps say where
    • Clarified - East Tennessee
  • "Two cannons positioned themselves " - I'd suggest tweaking this to note that the guns 'were positioned'
  • "Union casualties were 279 men" - was this the total killed, wounded and prisoners?
    • Yes, I have noted this
  • The article notes the poor state of the Confederate force, and it would be helpful to note somewhere that the Union force was of a much higher quality to help explain the very lopsided result of this battle. Nick-D (talk) 04:31, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Nick-D: - I haven't seen much in the literature discussing the state of the Union forces at Big Black River bridge (and none of the sources seem to know at all what Union numerical strength was, as none of the sources I've used and a few others I didn't provide a figure). I've clarified this a bit - Bowen's men were Pemberton's elite troops, but were badly exhausted. The ensuing rout seems to be simply due to the attack striking Vaughn's men, who really shouldn't have been put in a key rear guard situation anyway. Hog Farm Talk 20:41, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support My comments are now addressed. Sorry for the slow response here - I thought I'd responded last week. Nick-D (talk) 02:46, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

JJE

Didn't notice anything particularly problematic (are books the only sources available?) but "Grant's 12-year old son Fred was wounded in the leg while following the pursuit of the routed Confederates" makes me kind of wonder what a child was doing in this war zone. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:17, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: - Yes, books seem to be the only sources (I've checked JSTOR and Project MUSE for journal articles and didn't see anything useful), which is fairly common for coverage of the Vicksburg campaign - the best stuff is all in books. As to Fred - I've added a brief bit explaining that he followed his dad through the whole campaign. The 1860s certainly were a different time - John Clem was a non-commissioned officer at age 12. Charles Edwin King was mortally wounded at Antietam at age 13. The Confederates had an organized unit of high schoolers charge a battery at the Battle of New Market. Hog Farm Talk 20:18, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: For your infomation: Child soldiers in the American Civil War Pendright (talk) 05:09, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

All okay Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

  • Further reading uses a different style from Sources
    • Switched over to match
  • "Campbell, CA" Can we write the name of the state in full? American state abbreviations can be very confusing.
    • I've actually removed this one; a review of the table of contents suggests that none of the essays in this work deal directly with this battle
  • Link Jay Luvaas
    • Done
  • Sources are of good quality.
  • Spot checks not done.

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hawkeye7: - thanks for the review! I've addressed the various concerns. Hog Farm Talk 19:45, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All good - passing - great work! Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:54, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Pendright

@Hog Farm: I expect to start in a few days! Pendright (talk) 23:54, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I leave you with a passel of comments and look forward to your responses. Pendright (talk) 19:54, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

  • During the American Civil War, the city of Vicksburg, Mississippi, was a key point on the Mississippi River.
Since the ACW is spelled out in the previous sentence could abbreviate it to 'war' here
Done Hog Farm Talk 17:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • On April 30, 1863, a Union army commanded by Major General Ulysses S. Grant began crossing onto the east side of the Mississippi River.
Why - add just a bit of context?
I've added a bit - is this better? Hog Farm Talk 17:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
<>Yes - Pendright (talk) 19:32, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • After [engaging and] defeating Confederate forces in several intermediate battles, Grant's army defeated Lieutenant General John C. Pemberton's Confederates at the decisive Battle of Champion Hill on May 16.
Consider the above change
Done Hog Farm Talk 17:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • One division of Pemberton's army, commanded by Major General William W. Loring, had become cut off from Pemberton's main body during the retreat from Champion Hill.
Consider this version: During the retreat from Champion Hill, one division of Pemberton's army, commanded by Major General William W. Loring, was cutoff from Pemberton's main body.
Mostly done - I've been under the impression that "cutoff" is a noun, and "cut off" as two words is correct for when it is being used as a verb. I may be wrong though. Hog Farm Talk 17:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
<>Your impression is correct - my apology! Pendright (talk) 19:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pemberton did not know of the location of Loring's division, and [he] held a bridg[e]head on the east side of the Big Black River on the morning of May 17 to cover Loring's anticipated withdrawal across the river [on the morning of May 17].
Consider the above changes
done Hog Farm Talk 17:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Union Brigadier General Michael Kelly Lawler advanced his troops into an old meander in advance of the main Union line on the north end of the battlefield.
advanced his troops to an old meander on the river?
Well, the meander wasn't "on" the river anymore. It was formerly part of the river but was by then no longer part of the river. I'm not sure what the best phrasing for this is. Hog Farm Talk 17:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
<>As a verb, my dictionary says, meander is
a river or road that follows a winding course.
<>As a noun, my dictionary says, meander is
a winding curve or bend of a river or road.
If either definition fits as it's now phrased, so be il. If not, rephrase it as you understand either definition. Pendright (talk) 21:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, okay. I see the issue now. Meander scar is a more accurate description of the geographic feature in question, so I've made changes in the article to refelct meander scar, not meander, which should resolve the issue
<>Great! Pendright (talk) 23:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Th[e]is withdrawal became chaotic and roughly 1,750 Confederate soldiers and 18 cannons were captured; with the cannons [were] captured due to an error that left their [because the teams of horses [horse-drawn cannons were erronouesly] positioned on the other side of the Big Black River.
  • Consider the above changes
  • Partially done, except for the last part - the cannons were where they were intended to be; it was the horses that were out of place
<>Okay Pendright (talk) 23:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The number reported under "Aftertnath" is 1,751?
  • I've used this number in the lead now
  • The surviving Confederate soldiers entered the fortifications at Vicksburg, Mississippi, and the siege of Vicksburg began the next day[;] , [it] end[ed] ing in [the] a Confederate surrender on July 4, [1863].
Consider the above changes
Done

Background

  • The strategically important city of Vicksburg, Mississippi, was still in Confederate hands, [and it served] serving as a strong defensive position that commanded the river and pr[e]vented the Union from separating the two halves of the Confederacy.[4]
Consider the above changes
Done
  • An attempt to cut Williams's Canal across a meander of the river in June and July, bypassing Vicksburg, failed.[7][8]
Consider: An attempt during June and July to cut-across Williams's Canal, a meander in the river, that bypassed Vicksburg failed.
I don't think I agree with this one. The proposed phrasing could suggest that the canal itself was a meander, which it wasn't
<>I stand corrected!Pendright (talk) 23:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Grant ordered a retreat after a supply depot and part of his supply line were destroyed during the Holly Springs Raid on December 20 and Forrest's West Tennessee Raid.
  • Since Grant did not order a retreat until after the his supply lines were destroyed this might be a better way to phrase it?
  • I don't think I'm understanding what the needed change is here
<>My point is that readers are told he ordered a retreat before they knew why. If you are more comfortable with it as is, let it stand. Pendright (talk) 23:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've re-arranged things. Hog Farm Talk 03:39, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does the date apply to both raids?
  • Rephrased a bit
  • [Then] A [a]fter diverting up the Yazoo River, Sherman's men began skirmishing with Confederate soldiers [who were] defending a line of hills above the Chickasaw Bayou.
Consider the above changes
Done
  • The advance along the west bank of the Mississippi began on March 29, and [it] was spearheaded by Major General John A. McClernand's [XIII Corps] troops , the XIII Corps.
Consider the above changes
Done

Prelude'

  • On April 29, the Union Navy's Mississippi Squadron, commanded by David Dixon Porter, attempted to bombard the Confederate defenses at Grand Gulf, Mississippi, but the resulting Battle of Grand Gulf failed to drive the Confederates away.
attempted [?] to bombard
rephrased
  • On the morning of May 12, McPherson's encountered Confederate troops near Raymond, Mississippi, bringing on the Battle of Raymond.
McPherson's or McPherson?
I was missing a word here
<>Okay! Pendright (talk) 23:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A delaying action was fought on May 14.[26]
A bit of context here would help?
I've added some context for this
  • However, Johnston then marched his army away from the area in which a combination with Pemberton could easily be made.
Could "have been" easily made
Corrected
  • While Pemberton favored making a stand behind the Big Black River, he was convinced by some of his subordinate officers to make an offensive strike towards where Grant's supply line was believed to be.[29]
Is towards necessary?
Removed Hog Farm Talk 01:35, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pemberton did not know that Grant had forgone utilizing a traditional line of communications during his movement inland.[30]
  • What is the significance of this to readers
  • I've tried to rephrase this - essentially Pemberton was trying to attack something that didn't actually exist Hog Farm Talk 01:35, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The sentence above does not seem to transition well with the one below?
  • I've tried to ease the transition a bit - is it better now? Hog Farm Talk 01:35, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes! Pendright (talk) 23:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • While the Confederates began a difficult march, Grant moved west in three columns towards Edwards.[31]
Why was the march difficult?
Bad roads and a washed-out bridge - I've added this Hog Farm Talk 01:35, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
<>Good! Pendright (talk) 23:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Battle

  • [In preparing for what was likely to transoire,] Pemberton had a portion of his army hold a [the] line east of the Big Black River , in order to prevent Loring from being cut off from the main Confederate body at the crossing.
  • cutoff is one word
  • What crossing?
  • The river crossing, have clarified that in the article text Hog Farm Talk 01:35, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In early May[37] the Confederate defense line had been laid out by Samuel H. Lockett.[38]
  • defense line, or defensive line?
  • Defensive line - a typo on my part Hog Farm Talk 01:35, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Change had been to was
  • The works were made of cotton bales and dirt.
  • works seems more like a collective noun?
  • Replaced with "fortifications" Hog Farm Talk 01:35, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The defensive line of the previous sentence seems to be the works in this sentence, and the works is also used in some sentences that follow - in which case readers need some clarity of the term.
  • I've tried to rephrase some of the usages of "works" to make this a little clearer Hog Farm Talk 01:35, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
<>Great!Pendright (talk)
  • To the south lay a body of water named Gin Lake[,] ; the Confederate right flank was at the lake , with the line running north to the Big Black River, which made a bend east of the bridge across the Big Black River.
Consider the above changes
Done Hog Farm Talk 01:35, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The [tracks] path of the railroad ran on a raised [roadbed] embankment.
  • Consider the above changes
  • Changes made. Hog Farm Talk 03:39, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm unable to find how this sentence relaates to any other sentence, fact or idea?
  • I think it's helpful to describe the effects of the railroad on the terrain of the field of battle, but I'm okay with removing it if you feel strongly that it is irrelevant Hog Farm Talk 03:39, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • <>Let it stand - Pendright (talk) 15:35, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Confederate line was just west of the bayou, and trees were felled at the bayou to form abatis.
"an" abatis
Done Hog Farm Talk 03:39, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bowen commanded this 5,000-man force, which he deemed insufficent to strongly man the entire Confederate defensive works.[44]
insufficent -> sp?
Good catch - I wish there was a spell check feature in the wikitext window Hog Farm Talk 03:39, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Confederates had 18 cannon.[35]
Why is cannon sigular?
Not sure, changed. Hog Farm Talk 03:39, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Vaughn's men and the 4th Mississippi were positioned in an area north of the railroad where the enemy was least expected to attack, and Brigadier General Martin E. Green's brigade held the far left.[49]
Change enemy to the Union
Done Hog Farm Talk 03:39, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the Confederates were forced to retreat, they would have [had] to cross open ground to the bridge and Dot, which would become bottlenecks in a retreat.
Consider the above chabge
I'm not sure that fits the tense structure of the rest of the sentence, although my grasp of grammar isn't always the best (thank you, Missouri public schools system) Hog Farm Talk 03:39, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early on the morning of May 17, McClernand's troops advanced through Edwards, and then encountered the Confederate line.
Drop the comma after Edwards or add they after then
Comma removed Hog Farm Talk 03:39, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Illinoisans encountered the Confederate lines,[51] and then took up position in the woods facing the north end of the Confederate line.
  • Add "they" atter and
  • took up "a" position
  • Benton's men took up a position in the fields east of the woods to on the Union right, and Brigadier General Michael Kelly Lawler's brigade formed south of the road.[52]
is it "to" or "on'
"on"; corrected. Hog Farm Talk 03:39, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This movement worried Carr, who shifted Lawler to Benton's right, while Brigadier General Peter J. Osterhaus's division deployed to the south.
Drop the comma after Carr
done Hog Farm Talk 03:39, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two cannons positioned themselves in a small clearing between the right of the woods and the Big Black River, with the 22nd Iowa Infantry Regiment in support.
  • Two cannons positioned themselves -> how can this be?
  • "and" with the
  • This position allowed Lawler to enfilade the Confederate position east of the bayou, as well as part of the primary defensive works.[60][61]
Instead of enfilade, how about the ordinary words of a dictionary: direct a volley of gunfire along the length of a target, or something similar?
I don't know. I think it's good to use technical terms when appropriate. I've added another link to enfilade here, as I think the duplicate link is excusable. Hog Farm Talk 22:21, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
<>Let it stand, but Wikipedia tells us to be clear, concise, and reader friendly. Plain english should be used without jargon. Pendright (talk) 15:35, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The two regiments sent from Garrard's brigade to the right took the position previously occupired by the 22nd Iowa, who [and they] also moved in[on]to the meander.
Consider the above changes
Done, except for the into/onto; I think that part works better as is with the feature identified as a meander scar now. Hog Farm Talk 22:21, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • occupired -> sp
  • Colonel William Kinsman, the commander of the 23rd Iowa, proposed to Lawler that his regiment should attack the Confederates[;] , [Kinsman] reasoning [was] that the Confederates would only have time to fire one volley before the Union soliders reached the defenses[,] and that the Confederates might not put up a stiff fight after the Champion Hill defeat.
  • Consider the above changes, but since this sentence is over 50 words you might want to split it?
  • Done in a mostly equivalent form; I've also split the sentence Hog Farm Talk 22:21, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • soliders -> sp
  • Lawler ordered a charge by his whole brigade[;] , with the 21st and 23rd Iowa in the front rank while the other two regiments charged behind.
Consider the above changes
Done Hog Farm Talk 22:21, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 49th and 69th Indiana joined the attack[;] ,[67] while Lawler's men advanced at an angle across Green's front, [and] striking one of Vaughn's regiments, the 61st Tennessee Infantry Regiment.[68]
Consider the above changes
Done, with some other changes as well Hog Farm Talk 22:21, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lawler's men stopped to fire once they reached the abatis[;] , and the Tennesseans [were] routed, and the defenders either ran away or surrendered.[68]
Consider the above changes
Done Hog Farm Talk 22:21, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • He then formed a new line west of the river , [by] using the brigades of Brigadier Generals Stephen D. Lee and William E. Baldwin, who had arrived from Bovina, Mississippi, and part of Landis's Missouri Battery [that] , which had been positioned on the west bank before the battle.
  • Two other Confederate steamboats, Charm and Paul Jones, who had been located downstream from the bridge, were also burned.[74]
Consider the above changes for these two sentences
Done

Aftermath and preservation

  • Albert Lee's men spent the afternoon [add date and year] in low-intensity fighting across the river against [a] the Confederate force there, while Carr and Smith's men patrolled the field.[75]
Comsider the above changes
I've gone with "after the battle" instead of putting in the date and year of the battle again and have made the other change Hog Farm Talk 22:21, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Union reported the capture of 1,751 Confederates, as well as 18 cannon[s].[76]
  • Consider the above changes
  • It's reported above at 1,750?
* The lead figure was a round number that has been replaced by the actual count. Hog Farm Talk 22:21, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Confederate artillery losses [came about because] were due to the horse[-drawn] teams for the cannons [had been erroneously] being moved across the river before the battle for unclear reasons.
Consider the above changes
Mostly done, although see my reply in the lead section about the distinction between the cannons themselves and the horse teams Hog Farm Talk 22:35, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Green reported having suffered 485 casualties, while two of Vaughn's regiments combined for 546 losses.
Consider the above changes
Done Hog Farm Talk 22:35, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most of these casualties were in prisoners or [those] missing in action.
Consider the above changes
Done Hog Farm Talk 22:35, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 4th Mississippi, one of Vaughn's regiments, and Cockrell's brigade did not report losses, but [they were] are known to have suffered heavily in men captured.[79]

Consider the above changes
Done Hog Farm Talk 22:35, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pemberton ordered several outlying positions withdrawn into the main lines and the Vicksburg defenses were also physically improved.
Consider the above changes
I'm not sure what the above changes are? Hog Farm Talk 22:35, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • There was much outrage against Pemberton within the Confederate army due to the events of the past several days.[85]
What events?
Clarified Hog Farm Talk 22:35, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Loring had noticed light from fires in Union-occupied Edwards on the morning of May 17, and with the way blocked [he] , instead marched his men to Jackson , joining [where they joined] forces with Johnston on May 19.
Consider the above changes
Done Hog Farm Talk 22:35, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sherman sent a cavalry regiment towards Snyder's Bluff, where the Confederate fortifications were found to have been abandoned; [while] Grant's army had regained a connection to the Union Navy elements [on] in the Yazoo River.[87]
Consider the above changes
Done Hog Farm Talk 22:35, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aftermath
A close reading of the content of the aftermath part of the above section suggests that much of it might not fall within the ordinary meaning of aftermath.
  • See Section headings and Article titles of the MOS - Wikipedia:Manual of Style
  • The new Oxford American Dictionary defines the meaning of aftermath as "the consequences or aftereffects of a significant unpleasant event, and it further defines aftereffects as "an effect that follows after the primary action of something.
What do you think?
Pendright - I'll see what @WP:MILHIST coordinators: have to say. I've used the "Aftermath" heading in a number of other GA/FA articles about battles before, so I'd like additional opinions as this change would affect a number of articles. Hog Farm Talk 22:35, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm:: Unfortunately, there seems to be problems between what I said and your understanding of it. The issue I raise is not at all about the use of the Aftermath heading, it's about some of the content contained within the Aftermath part of the section that seems more relevant to the Battle section.
Oh, okay - I've moved the first paragraph about the casualties and battlefield cleanup out of the aftermath section - does this resolve the issue? Hog Farm Talk 14:47, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So chew on this for a bit and then you decide whether or not any changes seem necessary.Pendright (talk) 21:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: @Nick-D: @Donner60: This aftermath thing seems to have gotten out of hand, so let's bring some perspective to it by reviewing the facts. Initially, I stated that - A close reading of the content of the Aftermath part of the above section suggests that much of it might not fall within the ordinary meaning of aftermath. I followed up by asking - What do you think? Your response to this was - "I'll see what @WP:MILHIST coordinators have to say. They had plenty to say, however, it seemed as though they were responding to something other than the question I put to you. In our most recent exchange, I stated - Chew on this for a bit [the Aftermath content] and then you decide whether any changes seem necessary. To which you replied - Oh, okay - I've moved the first paragraph about the casualties and battlefield cleanup out of the aftermath section - does this resolve the issue? There was no issue to resolve - my comment merely asked you to decide whether changes to the content were necessary. You opted for change, so consider the matter closed. Pendright (talk) 22:26, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's one of the suggested heading names in articles on battles at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Content guide#Battles, and is widely used. It seems to be in line with the Oxford dictionary definition noted above. Nick-D (talk) 22:55, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Nick-D. It is in the manual of style, provides context and almost all of the events have further developments in a war or at its end. I am not going to go back and look but it would be safe to assume that all 99 military history articles that I have written would need to be changed, and the end would usually be left dangling with the question, so where do I look to see what happened next if the dictionary definition were to be strictly and narrowly interpreted and used to cut off these sections. The manual of style, along with common and accepted practice for military history articles, provide a sufficient basis for continuing to use these sections in military history articles. Donner60 (talk) 23:20, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm: This is it for mow - Pendright (talk) 19:54, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm: I move to support - Pendright (talk) 21:50, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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