Wikipedia:Peer review/Ellen Wilkinson/archive1

Ellen Wilkinson

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A sparky, slightly bumptious politician who shone very brightly in the drab political years between the world wars, Ellen Wilkinson enjoyed a brief period of power as Britain's Minister of Education, 1945–47, before her premature death. She was only the second woman, after Margaret Bondfield, to sit in a British cabinet—and rather outshone her stolid predecessor. She first become widely known in 1936 when, as MP for Jarrow, she led the famous Jarrow march to London, to petition the government to bring work to the devastated town. A hive of energy, when she wasn't actively politicking she wrote novels, pamphlets, helped to found UNESCO and (possibly) conducted a long-term affair with Herbert Morrison. I'd be glad of any comments, suggestions etc. While the review proceeds I will be paying some attention to the main Jarrow march article, which is a little inadequate at the moment. Brianboulton (talk) 22:19, 27 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Feedback from Cliftonian

Very strong and engaging work here, I thoroughly reading it. I had never heard of Wilkinson. I made a few minor tweaks during my readthrough but nothing major. Here are some other thoughts I hope will help.

  • "Suffrage Pilgrimage... when more than 50,000 women marched to a mass rally in London's Hyde Park" from where?
  • From all over the country – clarified. Brianboulton (talk) 23:13, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where we introduce the Profintern, perhaps rephrase slightly to "often known by the Russian abbreviation "Profintern"" or similar (some readers may not be aware of its provenence)
  • I don't have the source for the origin of the abbreviation, but it is surely English, not Russian – the intern bit = "international". I don't think we need further explanation here; the linked article should do for readers especially interested in this organisation. Brianboulton (talk) 23:13, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, fair enough. "Intern" is from Russian though; the Soviets used the word "internatsionale", taken from French, as a noun to describe international unions like this. The 2nd International for example is in Russian the "vtoriy internatsionale" if I recall correctly from school. —  Cliftonian (talk)  02:36, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks - your education was better than mine (and certainly more recent!). Brianboulton (talk) 20:56, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • We refer to Wilkinson promoting "Russian achievements" and saying "the Russian people" could look forward with hope. She may well have said "Russian", but I think she would have meant the Soviets as a whole, no? If I recall correctly the USSR wasn't quite formed yet at this stage but a few of the Soviet republics were already there.
  • The Soviet Union was proclaimed in December 1922, a month after the quoted speech. I have to go by the source, which specifically refers to "Russia". People continued to use "Russia" as shorthand for the USSR for decades, right up to the Union's collapse in 1991. Brianboulton (talk) 23:13, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "striking colours of her hair and clothing" what was striking about them?
  • We refer to Jawaharlal Nehru simply as an "Indian leader" but so far as I'm aware he didn't hold any office at the time (the "Indian leader" wording could taken to imply he was part of the Raj authorities). Perhaps better to call him an "Indian nationalist leader" or "Indian pro-independence leader" or something like that?
  • we say "over the age of 21" but I think we mean "aged 21 or older"
  • You are absolutely right - done.
  • In the 1929 election, did the Tories or Libs have any women elected? I guess not since we don't mention any. If not, perhaps put "260 and 59 respectively (all men)."
  • There were certainly a few Conservative women – Lady Astor and the Duchess of Atholl, maybe one or two more. There was Megan Lloyd George on the Liberal side. But I don't think such information is required in the text. If I can find a proper source, I'll add the details in a footnote. Brianboulton (talk) 23:34, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • We refer to "the autumn of 1929", but I believe it is better to avoid unqualified references to seasons like this as to readers in the southern hemisphere autumn is February–March. Perhaps "late 1929" or similar?
  • "she approved the conscription of women into the Auxiliary Fire Service for fire-watching duty, a policy that provoked considerable opposition" opposition from whom? the women being drafted or others?
  • From women generally. I will expand this a little, to clarify. Brianboulton (talk) 23:34, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers and thank you for the education and the good read. Hope this helps. —  Cliftonian (talk)  10:01, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for these comments – most helpful. Brianboulton (talk) 23:34, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Sarastro

Lead

  • Not a big deal, but is there a way to avoid the repetition of "women's suffrage" in consecutive sentences?
  • "Following her defeat at Middlesbrough in 1931, Wilkinson became a prolific journalist and writer, before returning to parliament as Jarrow's MP in 1935": My instinct would be to split this sentence but again, not a big deal at all.
  • Would "comprehensive schools" be better linked to Comprehensive school (England and Wales)?
  • Will everyone realise, particularly non-UK readers, that a "bitter winter" is a cold one, rather than a resentful or argumentative one?

Background, childhood and education

  • "She was soon struck down by a series of childhood illnesses that kept her at home for two years, where she learned to read": Not sure about "where she learned to read" here; maybe better in a different place? Or maybe "when she learned to read"?
  • "Her individualistic approach to classroom teaching led to frequent clashes with head teachers and school inspectors": Some examples might illustrate the point, as I'm left wondering what she might have done!
  • We don't seem to have a link to women's suffrage, here or in the lead. Nor is it explained. I think one or the other is needed.

Down to the end of Middlesborough MP so far. Sarastro1 (talk) 14:13, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Out of parliament

  • "Meantime, her parliamentary prospects had been revived by her selection as Labour candidate for Jarrow, a Tyneside shipbuilding town": To me, meantime does not sound right here. Maybe it's just me. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:12, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for these comments and suggestions. I have dealt with them all, except for the sentence-splitting, which did not read well when I tried it. I look forward to anything else you have to add. Brianboulton (talk) 10:19, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Postwar career

  • " Emmanuel Shinwell, just appointed Minister of Fuel and Power, commented that "it is not bad tactics to make one's enemies one's servants".": Another minor point, but was the comment made at the time or afterwards? If the former, it was rather a pointed comment!
  • He wrote the comment in 1966. I have slightly altered the text. Brianboulton (talk) 23:26, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and more recently had collapsed during a visit to Prague, in 1946.": I think we could lose "more recently had" from this sentence.
  • I wonder if some of the note giving potential reasons for a possible suicide should be moved to the main body. Also, these seem pretty flimsy reasons for supposing suicide. Was there anything else, as some people seemed to give credence to it?
  • Not much else at all, apart from gossip. But I think you're right – a little more info in the main text is desirable. I have ditched the nfootnote. Brianboulton (talk) 23:26, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

General

  • "National Government": I notice that this is not linked in the text; this may be worth doing. Also, it might be worth adding a sentence saying how long it survived.
  • Now linked at first mention, in the "1929–31" section. I have also clarified that the National Government ended when Churchill formed his wartime coalition in 1940. Brianboulton (talk) 23:26, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although not an image expert, I spot one little image issue. The FU image of Wilkinson has a licence which refers to Imogen Holst!
  • Wow, that as careless! Fixed now Brianboulton (talk) 23:26, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing else jumps out from this very readable and interesting account. Nice work as always. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:21, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Again, many thanks for these suggestions, all covered now. Brianboulton (talk) 23:26, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SchroCat

Nicely put together—as always—and (again as always) it's a struggle to find too much to comment on. A few minor corrections made; feel free to revert anything you don't like.

Early years

  • " classroom teaching led to frequent clashes with head teachers and school inspectors, and convinced her that her future did not lie in teaching": there's a lot of "teach" in there, perhaps "her future did not lie in the profession" would suffice?
  • Fair point: I have reworded. Brianboulton (talk) 11:22, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

1929–31

  • "same year Wilkinson co-sponsored": I think "she" would work as well

International and domestic concerns

  • "and Philip Noel-Baker": To avoid popping away to another page, perhaps a descriptor on the worthy gent?

Notes

  • Note 1: I think I'm right in saying the date format is wrong here and should be 1911–52, not 1911–1952; feel free to ignore me on this if you know better

That's it from me: all very interesting, and a delightful read to boot. Please drop me a note when you go to FAC. - SchroCat (talk) 14:53, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for these points, all attended to (I'm impressed that you read the footnotes!) Brianboulton (talk) 11:22, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley

First lot, to the end of the Jarrow March section:

  • Early years
    • "she was impatient with religion, and socialism" – the comma notwithstanding, my eye initially took this in as saying she was impatient with socialism as well as religion. Careless reading on my part, I admit, but it might be prudent to replace the "and" with a semicolon.
    • "leaflet distribution and putting up posters" – I think this might flow better if you used a participle for both halves: "distributing leaflets and putting up posters". Just a thought.
  • University
    • "many of the contemporary leaders on the radical left: the veteran … Sidney Webb" – two things here. First, shouldn't "on" be "of"? Secondly, the colon implies that the four people named were the only leaders of the left. Perhaps "including" rather than the colon? Or "many contemporary leaders..."?
  • Trade union organiser
    • "in London's Hyde Park" – it may just be me, but this construction always seems a bit tabloidese, as opposed to "in Hyde Park, London".
    • "her connection with the WIL, and its WIL conference adopted…" – you don't need the second WIL, I think.
    • "actions in Ireland" – "actions there" would avoid the repetition of "Ireland" in the one sentence.
  • Communism
    • Growing up Into Revolution – in the sources, below, you capitalise this title differently.
  • In opposition, 1924–29
    • "the striking colours of her hair and clothing" – we can take the clothing on trust, but you might add that she was a flaming redhead or platinum blonde or whatever she was.
      • Point raised by an earlier reviewer, and amended accordingly. Brianboulton (talk) 14:03, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Harrison acknowledges" – This is the first mention of Harrison, and a phrase of introduction to him would be welcome.
  • Out of parliament, 1931–35
    • Did the tract Why Fascism not have a question mark at the end?
    • "benefitted" – one of my little obsessions: "focused", "biased", "budgeted", and "benefited".
  • Jarrow March
    • " met Runciman to protest the decision" – and when are you getting your US passport? In English usage you need "against" after "protest".
    • [Hensley Henson, the Bishop of Durham – I have him on my to-do list. A strange mixture of a man. His anti-trade-union sentiments were positively phobic.]

More anon. I'll be travelling for most of tomorrow (Lake District) but will have web access there and will look in again on Thursday if not before. Tim riley talk 15:16, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for these observations. I have dealt with them all, and look forward to your further wisdom in due course. I shall be most interested to read your take on Henson. Brianboulton (talk) 14:03, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Second and concluding batch from Tim
  • Second World War
    • "disapproved the measure" – missing "of" after "disapproved", I think.
    • "and approved the wartime legislation" – this means, surely, that she exercised the power to authorise the legislation, which I don't think a junior minister could have done. I think you want "approved of …" or "supported" here.
    • "became vice-chair of the party's National Executive" – I bet she didn't. I'll lay five bob she became vice-chairman. Certainly The Times (27 Jan 1944, p. 2) records her as becoming chairman in place of the late G Ridley the following year.
    • I won't risk the 5 bob, and I've made the change you suggest. In my defence, though, the Bartley source says she became "vice-chair". Brianboulton (talk) 00:11, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Minister of Education
    • "to achieve cabinet rank in the British government" – you may need to be a bit careful with this phrase. In 1945, as in earlier and later administrations, some ministers are described as "of cabinet rank" without being in the cabinet (see The Times, 6 Aug 1945, p. 2). Sounds rather daft, but I just mention it in case the distinction is relevant because there was (if there ever was) an earlier female minister "of cabinet rank" not in the cabinet of the time.
    • Apart from Bonders, no other woman had previously occupied a position in the cabinet or of cabinet rank outside it, but I have tweaked the phrase. Brianboulton (talk) 00:11, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Appraisal and legacy
    • "ambition and pragmatism enabled her to temper her earlier Marxism and militancy" – "enabled" strikes a faintly wrong note; something like "caused" or "led" would seem to me more natural.
    • "she believed that, in the final analysis" – there's a touch of Sir Humphrey about this ("looking at it by and large, taking one thing with another, in the final analysis it is probably true to say, that at the end of the day, in general terms, you would probably find that, not to put too fine a point on it, there probably wasn't very much in it one way or the other") and I think it would be better to say, "she believed that parliamentary democracy offered a better route to social progress than any other".
  • Missing OCLCs:
    • The Division Bell Mystery = 504369261
    • The Road to Success = 504641202
    • Growing Up Into Revolution = 626722

I enjoyed this article greatly. You have a rare talent for winkling out interesting women and bringing them to life on the page (Gibbons, Smith and Bondfield among recent examples). Super stuff! Now I'm off to scrutinise what you've said about my Poulenc efforts. – Tim riley talk 14:55, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I believe all the necessary fixes are done, and again my thanks to you for your helpful suggestions (and OCLC additions). And now, like you, I will hie me to Poulenc, where I will finish my review. Brianboulton (talk) 00:11, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

Comment Riveting. A fine depiction. A few comments.

Infobox
  • Why some start/ends of office are years only is not clear to me. Wouldn't some of this be available by consulting articles on those who entered Parliament with her, say?
  • I have regulated the presentation of dates. Those relating to her terms as MP for Middlesbrough and for Jarrow are the dates of general elections. Strictly speaking, MPs cease to hold office on dissolution of parliament, usually about three weeks before the election, and if re-elected resume when retaking the oath a few days after the election. But to avoid lots of explanation irrelevant to this article, I think the actual election dates will suffice
Lede
  • I might cut the comma in the opening sentence.
  • "poor but aspirational" The "aspirational" is a stopper, which the reader is likely to puzzle over. What about "ambitious"?
Early etc.
  • "self-educated, he ensured that his children received the best education" can the "education" be changed to "schooling" to avoid the near-repeat?
  • "struck down". That tends to get used in American English as something far more drastic (death, perhaps, or in sports out for the season). Afflicted?
University
  • The word "university" occurs three times in close succession in the first part of the first paragraph (plus the title of the section). Surely the second one in the text can be changed from "At the university," to "There,"
  • "In her final year at the university" I would think "the" could be safely deleted.
Early career
  • "the university". Same comment.
  • "her connection with the WIL, and its WIL conference adopted a non-pacifist stance that justified armed struggle as a means of defeating capitalism" Can the WIL be reduced? Additionally, a date here would be helpful, as it occurs between a description of 1917 (First World War) and 1920 (conflict in Ireland). Or if they're talking about what was going on in Russia, or what.
  • Yes, the second WIL was a mis-typing, it should have been the year (1919). Brianboulton (talk) 16:05, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Communism
  • " at that time the CPGB was not a proscribed organisation, and dual CPGB/Labour memberships were accepted." This is a bit unclear to me. Accepted by whom? The people with the power to proscribe or other people? This should also be made clear in the following section, where you refer to the Labour Party doing proscribing, but I'm not clear on whether you refer to the party, or the government led by the party.
Seeking elective
  • I think you should make it clear she lost in Ashton at the 1923 election. You refer to Baldwin calling it in December 1923, that might lead the reader to believe that after the usual shenanigans, the election took place in 1924, which of course is a different election. Possibly you should say that Baldwin called the election for December 1923 and make it clear at some point that Parliament didn't meet until the following year.
  • "After this," vague. "After making this statement"?
Opposition/Government
  • "related to the striking colours of her hair and clothing." I think you're going to have to give the reader some explanation here.
  • Other reviewers have said the same - I have added explanatory detail. Brianboulton (talk) 16:05, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Out of Parliament
  • I am devastated not to have a description of Nev! (no action, though I'd appreciate the quote)
  • I don't know if Nev was included in Peeps. (She certainly went for him later!) Brianboulton (talk) 16:05, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • " documented early incidences" incidents?
Jarrow
  • Did Wilkinson speak in the debate in which Runciman made those comments? Or in presenting the petition to the H of C?
  • There was not a debate as such – I have amended the wording to "brief discussion". The entire discussion is available by clicking on the citation 118; you will see that Wilkinson asked a technical question, Baldwin replied, another member asked a supplementary to which Runcimn gave his "much improved" reply, at which Chuter Ede accused him of complacency. There were a few more questions, but no fiery speeches. Brianboulton (talk) 16:05, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "she said of Chamberlain's actions" you have not previously mentioned the individual.
  • "In 1937 Wilkinson was ... Hire Purchase Act 1938." I would establish this as a paragraph immediately prior to the one on appeasement. The remaining material builds up to the war well, if you do that, in my view.
  • I have reorganised the material, and transferred a sentence back to the Jarrow section, to maintain the momentum towards war. Brianboulton (talk) 16:05, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Postwar
  • "the king's invitation to form a government" the incumbent should get a pipe.
  • "was to secure the raising of the school leaving age by 1 April 1947" this is, I gather, simply what the law required, or is there significance to the 1 April date? Was it earlier than required to keep more children in school?
  • The date was set by the 1944 act, but few thought it was achievable, hence the refs to parliamentary scepticism. Wilkinson was determined that the date be met, and stuck to her guns, finally getting cabinet backing in January 1947. I have rejigged the paragraph to make the position clearer. Brianboulton (talk) 16:05, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Appraisal
  • "The Town that was Murdered" this is capped differently in the list of works--Wehwalt (talk) 20:41, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for all these comments, which subject to my comments have been adopted into the article. Brianboulton (talk) 16:05, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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