Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indonesia

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Guys, I found some recent updates regarding this article (although it is still primary source).

• Samuda (or Semoeda) Allegedly was once the capital of Pemboewan during the reign of Djaja Ngagara. however, the government only runs for One Month.
• Ujung Pandaran is suspected to have been part of Pemboewan during Raden Moeda's government. The separation of Pandaran from Pemboewan and its integration into the Kewedanan Sampit is still being debated.
• There is a piece of land in the northern part of Seruyan (now part of Melaw Regency, West Kalimantan Province) which is suspected to have been part of Pemboewan at the beginning of the tenure of Kjai Ngabei Djaja-negara.

I have updated the regional map file, and this time the map is my own creation. ~Thank You ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 22:23, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Fazoffic: Probably you can imagine how eager we are to see the citation of the primary source you mention, especially if we really are supposed to give you any response here. Thank you. –Austronesier (talk) 09:02, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

^{[citation needed]}. Otherwise, my primary source says that Pemboewan was a district in what is today Merauke. Juxlos (talk) 13:16, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you're starting to think weird about this. well, at least I gave an update. It's up to you how you want to respond. ~Thank you ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 14:01, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Haha, I can't believe time has gone by so fast, and this discussion reminds me of how novice I used to be. ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 09:50, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is an AfD for this article ongoing, but it is difficult for contributors who do not know Indonesian to evaluate the notability and reliability of its sources since they are all non English. Help would be appreciated. small jars tc 18:04, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Wikipedia article for Ragnar Oratmangoen claims that he is a Muslim of Indonesian origin, referencing a source written in Indonesian, so I attempted to add Oratmangoen to the "Dutch Muslims" category.

However, another Wikipedian undid my revision because I had no English sources claiming that Oratmangoen is a Muslim. Could an Indonesian-speaking person look at the source given in Oratmangoen's article and confirm whether he is a Muslim or not? If he is, please add him to the "Dutch Muslims" category and mention that there are Indonesian-language sources to support this in the edit summary. M89565c (talk) 18:56, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Non-English is accepted per Wikipedia:NOENG. And refer to reference in the article itself, https://www.indosport.com/sepakbola/amp/20200716/oratmangoen-penyerang-muslim-keturunan-indonesia-yang-main-di-belanda#aoh=16205074906365, it was mentioned that he is most likely Muslim because he put Alhamdulillah on his instragram Bio. Ckfasdf (talk) 08:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion after reading the article he probably is Muslim, but this sports site seems like somewhat a poor quality news source and it would be nice to get something a bit more solid. You know, like ones that verify facts with a follow-up rather than speculating. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:09, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's kind of difficult. Indonesian source (even reputable news source) all referring to his social media account in which he said things that only moslem usually says (such as Alhamdulillah and Eid Mubarak, Taqabbalallahu Minna Wa Minkum). So.. it's still kind of speculating but more of educated guess. Ckfasdf (talk) 15:09, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, unfortunately there is a large market of Indonesian news sources that are not very rigorous and when it comes to celebrity topics they are often the only easy-to-find source. Still problematic in terms of making assertions on wikipedia though. Dan Carkner (talk) 15:19, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you both for your help. M89565c (talk) 17:23, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There's discussion regarding English translation of Ejaan yang disempurnakan on Talk:Perfected Spelling (Indonesian)#Enhanced, Perfected, Improved?. Looking forward to your input. Ckfasdf (talk) 08:10, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion is actually with an earlier post from a never visit again editor some time back, four and half years ago...

The first reference that I encounter in a dictionary - (definitely not a google check) -

States and uses Updated and improved spelling - I see no evidence to see why there is in any use in utilizing perfected or revised, unless I might be missing something in some way. JarrahTree 11:17, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yea.. It was from discussion 4 years ago, but for quite sometime EYD was translated in WP as "Enhanced Spelling" until few weeks ago, where @Bebasnama decide to replace it. And makes me think about it. Ckfasdf (talk) 16:10, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@JarrahTree: The usage of "Perfected Spelling" can be found on the following books: Mapping Asia: Cartographic Encounters Between East and West, Language, Nation and Development in Southeast Asia, Spelling and Society: The Culture and Politics of Orthography Around the World, Focus on Indonesia, Historical Dictionary of Indonesia, and many more. It's surprisingly easy to find reference that translate EYD as "Perfected Spelling". Ckfasdf (talk) 16:21, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, I dont do google, I have and use hard copies of books and dictionaries and perfected is not used. As a native speaker in english, and a very very poor user of Indonesian, I thinkthe notion of 'perfected' is wrong, by implication and inherent understanding of the usage of the word in english. But then that's one opinion. I am disappointed others have not offered their opnion. too often these discussions do not benefit from just two editors, the more the merrier... JarrahTree 03:58, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A Google search is good in order to find out if a term/title etc. has some prevalence. We can scrutinze the search results and differentiate between significant usage in qualitiy sources and random findings in lesser sources. That said, I can see qualitiy sources in Ckfasdf's list. I could add Jim Sneddon's The Indonesian Language: Its History and Role in Modern Society, UNSW Press.

But then, we should do same for alternative translation efforts like "Enhanced spelling" etc.

Personally, I think we need to go one step back. Have you noticed that almost all sources mention the Indonesian term first, and then offer a translation for it? This means, that the primary term actually is Ejaan yang disempurnakan or its acronym EYD. I know, we have WP:USEENGLISH, but if something is usually referred to by its non-English name in common English parlance, then the non-English name is the common name (like, has anyone of you ever used anything else but Pusat Bahasa or Badan Bahasa?).

And @JT, don't feel disappointed. It's much more frustrating to combat utter fuckwittery in underwatched/undercurated ethnicity-related pages :) @Ckfasdf is a gem for being one of the few to support me when they see what's going on. –Austronesier (talk) 09:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, I appreciate both Ckfasdf and Austronesier's comments, and have no problem with which we way we go... JarrahTree 09:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just my opinion and I don't have a strong feeling on which way it should go on Wikipedia, but I took a few years of Indonesian language courses in the West and do not recall ever hearing Perfected Spelling in any course, although maybe in a textbook it was printed somewhere. After that however in books and articles it was the most common translation I came across for EYD. To me it's a unique but acceptable literal translation that is commonly used but I'm not fussed if the group feels otherwise. In writing Wiki articles I do sometimes find it awkward to spell out either Perfected Spelling: EYD: or Van Ophuijsen Spelling System: in the intro when offering alternate spellings, and sometimes I feel "pre-1948 spelling" or "pre-independence spelling" or other time-based ways are clearer for the casual reader, but those have their flaws too. Dan Carkner (talk) 22:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for comment @Austronesier, @JT, @Dan Carkner. IMO, further discussion should take place in Talk:Perfected Spelling (Indonesian)#Enhanced, Perfected, Improved?. Looking forward to your input there. Ckfasdf (talk) 09:05, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think flags such as provincial ones should be reinstated. Reason being they are legally exist and legit (albeit its a little tricky to cite the specific laws). Flags would also not overflow the Infobox as they have its own separate section that occupies the slot next to the Coat of Arms. I surfed the wikipedia a little bit and found that Provinces of France, Prefectures of Japan, and States of the United States, etc. have their flags displayed on the infobox. Not sure why would we be the odd's one out in this case.

Hence I will repeat my self by reiterating what I previously said before:

I see no reason why we shouldn't add flags as well, as it is informative as it is harmless. And as for Flags are just CoA with a rectangle cloth with coloured background... well pretty much sums up most of the world's State/Provincial/City flags. Or if its too cluttered I disagree as a flag would only take one space and that space is already made available right next to the CoA meaning it will not make the Infobox any bigger. From my understanding of the consensus it is supposed to be temporary, as it is nearing 3 years since it was first made I think the topic should be reopened and flags should be reinstated (at least the ones we can confirm of its existence, accurate)

Flags I can confirm are the ones with link:

Sumatra (7/10 Provinces)

Aceh, North Sumatra, West Sumatra, Riau (different colour), Riau Islands, Jambi (different colour), South Sumatra, Bengkulu, Bangka Belitung, Lampung (different colour).

Java and Nusa Tenggara (8/9 Provinces)

Banten, Jakarta, West Java, Central Java, Yogyakarta, East Java, Bali (different colour), West Nusa Tenggara, East Nusa Tenggara.

Kalimantan (4/5 Provinces)

West Kalimantan, Central Kalimantan, South Kalimantan, East Kalimantan (different colour), North Kalimantan.

Sulawesi and Maluku (7/8 Provinces)

West Sulawesi, South Sulawesi, Southeast Sulawesi, Central Sulawesi, Gorontalo, North Sulawesi, Maluku, North Maluku (different colour).

Papua (3/6 Provinces)

Southwest Papua, West Papua, Papua (different colour), Highland Papua, Central Papua, South Papua.

As usual I look forward to hear everyone's thoughts on this. EvoSwatch (talk) 05:25, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The issue with provincial flags was "Verifiability". New provinces like in province in Papua, don't have this issue as their logo regulation also includes information on provincial flag and its background color. But for older provinces, the problem still the same. IMO, based on Evoswatch info above, The next question is whether we can accept provincial flags shown in governor's office as reference to resolve "verifiability" issue. Ckfasdf (talk) 09:53, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I personally believe so, being hoisted and placed in the Governor's office would make it being used under official capacity. Its certainly tricky and its not the best source but its the best we got until those regulations surfaced. EvoSwatch (talk) 05:56, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think that section should be improved. However, I myself don't know what the improved guidelines would look like. We can maybe try gathering ideas here.

On second mention, Western names generally only use surname (MOS:SURNAME). For Indonesian names, that's usually not always the case. I checked AP Stylebook, it only has guidelines for Arabic, Chinese, Korean, Portuguese, Russian, and Spanish names, there's no guidelines for Indonesian names.

A journalist on this tweet (that Twitter thread is worth to read by the way) claim to have made a style guide for Indonesian name. But sadly that guidelines is not publicly available (tweet). (Someone can probably ask her?) Hddty (talk) 05:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately the article about EYD has been moved to Enhanced Spelling of the Indonesian Language without consensus. At least a few of us seemed to agree that Perfected Spelling, although it sounds strange in English, is the Wikipedia:COMMONNAME; see Talk:Enhanced_Spelling_of_the_Indonesian_Language#Enhanced,_Perfected,_Improved?. As it has been moved several times this year I'm not clear on what the procedure is to address this. Dan Carkner (talk) 17:33, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The sort-of-consensus for "Perfected Spelling" fell victim to an innocent technical move request ("Perfected Spelling (Indonesian)" formally violates our disambiguation rules), which resulted in Xth page move within a few month. I can't blame the admin who restored the long-standing title for the sake of stability.

The way to go now is WP:RM#CM. Be equipped with good sources for your suggested title and all potential alternatives, ideally with metrics. Try e.g. "Perfected spelling"+"Indonesian" etc. in Google Scholar. You will find that "Enhanced Spelling"+"Indonesian" superficially wins, but only in the last 5 years or so, when Indonesian graduate students started to be required to publish English papers and have found "Enhanced Spelling" in WP as the English term for EYD. A typical case of WP-induced prevalence, which is a more subtle form of citogenesis.

But if you prune for high-quality sources from Indonesian and international scholars, things might look different. Anton Moeliono and Harimurti Kridalaksana used "Improved spelling", Jim Sneddon "Perfected spelling", Husen Abas "Revised orthography", and so on. I will support whatever comes out from a thorough survey that should be done before the actual move request. –Austronesier (talk) 18:35, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Will try to do my homework on this matter. If it ends up staying where it is now, it won't be the end of the world, but I do think it should be an informed decision. Dan Carkner (talk) 18:47, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As this is a highly active WikiProject, I would like to introduce you to Credibility bot. This is a bot that makes it easier to track source usage across articles through automated reports and alerts. We piloted this approach at Wikipedia:Vaccine safety and we want to offer it to any subject area or domain. We need your support to demonstrate demand for this toolkit. If you have a desire for this functionality, or would like to leave other feedback, please endorse the tool or comment at WP:CREDBOT. Thanks! Harej (talk) 17:36, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source. Not sure whether this has been done somewhere, but I curious so I did it myself, copied from my Excel. The first table is sum of second table, where the number is rounded, so the first table's number may be a little bit not presice.

Hddty (talk) 14:31, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Last update for 2023. Hddty (talk) 03:54, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That article was fairly well fleshed out. The only problem is that it had poor sources and as a result described as facts things that are (mostly) a 17th-century reconstruction of what must have happened sixteen centuries ago. It also included theories that are, hmm, let’s say "optimistic" - such as having the Egypt-based savant Ptolemy travelling in person to Java (at a time where going from Egypt to India was already a long and dangerous voyage, let alone pushing to the West Indies).

I violently cut it down to a fairly short stub with basically a single scholarly source that says (essentially) that the kingdom is a myth. (I might have lost some valuable stuff in the process within all the cruft.) A Google Scholar search for "Salakanagara" seems to find some more literature on the subject but most sources are in Bahasa Indonesia (which I cannot read and online translators do not seem to work well). Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 11:59, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello WikiProject Indonesia:

WikiProject Women in Green is holding a month-long Good Article Edit-a-thon event in October 2023!

Running from October 1 to 31, 2023, WikiProject Women in Green (WiG) is hosting a Good Article (GA) edit-a-thon event with the theme Around the World in 31 Days! All experience levels welcome. Never worked on a GA project before? We'll teach you how to get started. Or maybe you're an old hand at GAs – we'd love to have you involved! Participants are invited to work on nominating and/or reviewing GA submissions related to women and women's works (e.g., books, films) during the event period. We hope to collectively cover article subjects from at least 31 countries (or broader international articles) by month's end. GA resources and one-on-one support will be provided by experienced GA editors, and participants will have the opportunity to earn a special WiG barnstar for their efforts.

We hope to see you there!

Grnrchst (talk) 13:10, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know the first thing about Indonesian history, so hoping an experienced editor who does can take a look at something. A mixture of accounts and IPs (possibly one person? unclear) have made a bunch of edits to the Bersiap article, apparently incensed by the inclusion of a source from one particular scholar. I do not know anything about the validity of the objection (regardless of the scholar's reputation, it seems to me it's just being used to source the fact that the Bersiap is known by different names in different parts of Indonesia), and their manner of addressing it has involved only deleting half of reference templates at a time and repeatedly reverting.

The page is now semi-protected, but the discussion continues on the talk page. This person/people's rather chaotic approach continues, including logging out of accounts halfway through discussion threads and using very uncivil language. Hoping someone can weigh in on the substance of the issue, so we can then focus on handling the disruptive behaviour aspect. Thanks in advance! AntiDionysius (talk) 16:46, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have some experience with these sources and have edited this article in the past, I will try and take a look thanks. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:20, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK I can see now that it's (apparently) the same editor I came across before who wants only one perspective to be represented in the article. That's not appropriate about a historical topic with different viewpoints on it but I'll have to come back to it later when I have more time to dig into sources. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:39, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi folks, I'm trying to figure out what went on here and who initiated it but I admit I'm not good at figuring out where to see the history of speedy category moves or what discussion took place after it's been closed. Category:Dutch people of the Dutch East Indies was apparently speedy moved to Category:Dutch expatriates in the Dutch East Indies which strikes me as worse. Were all (European-born) Dutch people expatriates there? But it was part of their own territory wasn't it? And how about Dutch people born and living in the Indies, are they now part of this category?

Perhaps there are not enough articles to be fussing about this but it strikes me there are different overlapping concepts: ethnically "Dutch" people in the Indies (may include Indos, may be born in Europe or Asia or South Africa etc), Dutch citizens in the Indies (may include Indos and later others who applied, excluding German and other citizens living and working equally as Europeans in Indies), and people with European status in the Indies (may include those non Dutch citizens, is perhaps the most omnipresent and important legal status for someone as compared to the others).

Any thoughts? Dan Carkner (talk) 14:17, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Added a request for it to be moved back here. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:40, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pity this noticeboard discussion point is bit like an echo chamber of late... JarrahTree 01:08, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Army Strategic Reserve Command#Requested move 15 September 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. – robertsky (talk) 15:41, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Follow-up to my thread above, I finally did a bit of research and suggested a move for Indonesian orthography. Dan Carkner (talk) 17:44, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I recently travelled to Lombok and reviewed some of Wikipedia's articles about the island, notably those relating to Kuta and Mandalika (also the nearby Mandalika International Street Circuit). The Kuta and Mandalika resort articles are essentially about the same small area, and I think they should be merged into one - perhaps named 'Kuta Mandalika' (I saw some large street signage using this name). What do other editors think? Paul W (talk) 18:25, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone help me make sense of this edit? They have added a mention that Sin Po continues as a digital publication, and the reference is a link to the website of the new publication which does seem legit--but is it appropriate to frame it in the article as a continuation and not simply a new publication half a century later that adopted a historical name? thanks. Dan Carkner (talk) 17:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is certainly inappropriate to frame it in wikivoice as a revival, with no other information on links between the two and no independent source. A bit better would be saying a new publication has adopted the name of the previous one, but even then an independent source would be preferable. CMD (talk) 17:27, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That is my feeling about the situation as well. Dan Carkner (talk) 20:15, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The added sentence has many tense issues - it is bizarre. The sense of the added material does not fit with the article anyway...CMD suggestion is good JarrahTree 01:37, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I removed it with a note the statement could be restored if secondary sources explained the connection. Dan Carkner (talk) 13:19, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:TVRI Sulawesi Selatan#Requested move 3 November 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Lightoil (talk) 17:29, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Sir David's long-beaked echidna#Requested move 11 November 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. UtherSRG (talk) 13:28, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:SandyGeorgia has nominated Borobudur for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 15:36, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi folks, I decided to beef up the article about the Surabaya Synagogue today and only after doing a bunch of work did I notice there was also an article about the congregation that owned it, the Israelitische Gemeente Soerabaia. I proposed that they be merged with a redirect, feel free to comment on it at Talk:Surabaya_Synagogue#Proposed_merger_December_2023. thanks. Dan Carkner (talk) 01:42, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We now have two Darul Islam main articles, along with other...

Darul_Islam_(Indonesia) has existed here on english wikipedia since 2005

Darul_Islam_rebellion has existed since 2015

DaruI_Islam has existed for two days at this point

It would be very good if any lurkers on this page were to offer opinions, suggestions,

as the potential complications arise if they remain as is. My 2 cents is that we (if there is anyone available for a reasonable overview) are able

to resolve the issue in WP:AGF and sooner than later, as the effort going in to the

new curiously spelt item is considerable... Of course all we need (irony alert) is an editor/admin with no knowledge of the background

and context to simply jump in and delete one or other without consultation. One hopes not.

Please - any response is appreciated in this very quiet noticeboard. Thanks.

JarrahTree 02:44, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Update - the latest proposal is for a merge - still interested in comments here though! JarrahTree 03:11, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In some ways, I like the latest translation-based fork, since it has things like talking of "Ibnu Hadjar and his gang members". But then it also says "Kahar Muzakkar and his followers fled into the forest carrying full weapons and causing disturbances", which sounds quite like (probably involuntarily) whitewashing the ISIS- or Colonel Kurtz-style reign of terror that Kahar Muzakkar installed after he had retreated to the boondocks.

Darul Islam rebellion is a conflict-focussed fork (WikiProject Military history!) complete with cannon sizes like 23×115mm.

Let's merge then what's worth keeping (whether it's just me who thinks that "gang members" is one of these things, well...). –Austronesier (talk) 21:55, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi.. There's a discussion to clarify definition of "legal" on Talk:LGBT rights in Indonesia#Legal's meaning , More opinions are welcome. Thank you. Ckfasdf (talk) 04:27, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If Joko Widodo has served as the Indonesian president since 2014. Then, he can't run in 2024. If Indonesian presidents can serve up to two five-year terms, totaling 10 years, then his tenure is up.

Is there a reason why he's listed as the imcumbent on the wiki page?

I'm new to this, but if that's there to just show who was president before 2024's election, then disregard this topic. @2024 Indonesian general election Uakendes7622 (talk) 04:32, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Peranakans#Requested move 6 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:59, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This has been bothering me for a long time, for anyone that has experience in Vectoring (i.e. SVG)

The file [1] is wrong, as can be seen here by the Air Force's post the flames on the bottom should be 4 and 5 symbolizing the flames of 1945.

Can anyone that has experience in svg would please take your time and change as it should be? I understand it doesn't have to be 1:1 exact replica but when it comes to the hidden meanings and symbols I think its important to get it right. If you do have the time and experience please, thank you.

- EvoSwatch (talk) 16:53, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@EvoSwatch c:Commons:Graphic Lab/Illustration workshop would be a good place to ask because the experts are there. Hddty (talk) 15:30, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, wildo. EvoSwatch (talk) 15:59, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Halmahera Sea languages#Requested move 11 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 21:11, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Maden language#Requested move 11 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 21:13, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see that in every province led by an acting governor (example Jakarta), there is the word "Acting" in the "Acting Governor" section. In my opinion, this positioning is not appropriate, because if it is led by a definitive governor then I am afraid readers will misunderstand that it is still led by an official. I suggest it is better to just use the word "Acting" after the name so that editors can understand the meaning of the word. Thank You

Example the word "Acting" after a name

• Israel
• Frankfurt (per 27 March 2023)
• South Korea (per 22 April 2017)

Baqotun0023 (talk) 01:15, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Recently I nominated several articles for deletion on Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Indonesia, I'd like to invite you all to participate on AfD discussion. Thank you. Ckfasdf (talk) 06:14, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent work, there is never enough checking of existing or new articles for eligibility to stay or go so to speak, thanks for your hard work! There seem to be none of the usual suspects at the afds at this stage, It is always hard to know whether they will re-surface at some point (or not). JarrahTree 06:20, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. It'll be very appreciated if JarrahTree or other member of WikiProject Indonesia could participate on AfD discussion. Ckfasdf (talk) 06:28, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We should have flags in infoboxes. It doesn't make any sense to not allow official flags in them. Eehuiio (talk) 11:34, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

flagcruft has been gone through a few times before in the last 15 years or more, and whether this project has a policy or not is not appreciated by the football editors who are in a world of their own, regardless... It would be interesting to see if editors involved in the discussions about flags in info boxes in the past return here, or not. JarrahTree 12:07, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what flags we talking about but I'm always in the opinion that provincial (and other flags) should be on infoboxes. So, I second this gesture of having flags in infoboxes. - EvoSwatch (talk) 06:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree with this (as I was initially the one that directed @Eehuiio to open discussion here regarding past consensus about flags). Even if they are supposedly "little of value", provincial flags, cities and regencies flags, if have their existance proven, should be allowed to be put inside their respective infoboxes. Nyanardsan (talk) 11:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it's hard to prove their existence, that doesn't lend much credence that they are WP:DUE in an infobox. CMD (talk) 12:49, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The provincial flag essentially consists of the provincial logo displayed on a flag. However, a key concern lies in the background color of the flag, as it appears to vary depending on... only God knows who. Ideally, if there were regulations clearly outlining the specifications for each individual provincial flag, then I would support including the flag in the infobox. Please note that despite having clear regulations, discrepancies can still arise, as evidenced by the case of "Papua Pegunungan," where the regulations specify a green background color, while the flag available on Commons displays a yellow background color. Ckfasdf (talk) 02:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://papuadalamberita.com/mendagri-lantik-ali-baham-temongmere-jadi-penjabat-gubernur-papua-barat/

That should confirm all of them. Eehuiio (talk) 23:39, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so. I had trouble identifying most provincial flags in the picture, and the discrepancy issue I mentioned earlier still hasn't been resolved. Ckfasdf (talk) 00:10, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are things that's been bothering me for a while. So I will put two issues I'd like to discuss with other active members of WP:Indonesia.

• First issue:

This is pretty much unanimous i believe but still problematic. We translated "kabupaten" as "regency", becaucse thats how it should be, and that for a time mistranslation as "district" was done by foreign sources or badly translated ones most of the time. However, Statistics Indonesia have been translating "kabupaten" as "district" and "kecamatan" as "subdistrict" for a good few years now and considering they basically is the most official way to know things about Indonesian regencies, what do we do now? Adjust it to BPS translation? But thats such a dumb translation and then we'll find a lot of incosistency especially on how kecamatan is literally "distrik" in Papua, and that there's so much to change if we decide to agree with BPS translation.

• Second issue.

How do we standarize translation on kabupaten and kecamatan names? Do we translate them to English or leave it as it is? Why do we translate kecamatan names and to what extend? I've seen kecamatan named "something kota" written as "something town", but then there are some that are not. There are kecamatan named "Hulu" and "Hilir" that are then translated into "Upper" and "Lower" but we dont translate Kapuas Hulu Regency into Upper Kapuas Regency (and if we do it feels kinda wrong to translate it). But for West East South North we translated it on regency names such as North Central Timor Regency but then we sometimes dont do it on kecamatan and leave it as "Kecamatan something Selatan". Should the kecamatan naming convention follows regency naming convention? We translate cardinal directions but nothing else, or maybe there's other way to do it?

I think that's all issues i'm bringing up for now. Apologize for bothering. Thank you very much

Nyanardsan (talk) 09:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the first question, the gist I get from official and academic sources is that there's absolutely no consensus - and it doesn't help that English Wikipedia has used "regency" for almost 20 years. If the common translation was "district" in 2000, a pseudo-citogenesis has certainly moved the needle towards "regency" by now, and the idea of moving close to a thousand pages to a marginally less common translation doesn't appeal too much.

Not to mention we've been lately translating "Kecamatan" to District, and then we'd have to change that, too. But then, we have Papuan actual "Distrik"… Juxlos (talk) 01:48, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The use of Regency over Kabupaten is not (pseudo-)citogenesis. A lazy search in Google Scholar gives 112 hits for "Cirebon Regency" from the Wikipedia-free 20th century, but only 18 for "Kabupaten Cirebon" in the same period. For this century, I used the phrase test (which is more reliable than using the built-in language filter of Google Scholar): "in Cirebon Regency" yields 732 results, "in Kabupaten Cirebon" only 25. The change in ratio from 6:1 to 29:1 might in part be driven by usage in Wikipedia, but the latter maximally has reinforced a clear terminological preference that existed before the introduction of the Web. –Austronesier (talk) 18:14, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't you be testing "Regency" against "District"? That is just a language test there. Juxlos (talk) 00:50, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

yeah, it is very difficult - see Kulon Progo -

Kulon Progo Regency is divided into twelve districts (kapanewon), listed below with their areas and their populations at the 2010 census[2] and the 2020 census,[3] together with the official estimates as at mid 2022.[4] The table also includes the locations of the district administrative centres, the number of administrative villages (classed as kalurahan) in each district, and its post code

So the variants in different 'umbrella articles', and articles about various regions have variants of explanation, so it is potentially not easily resolvable.

so it's at all levels... JarrahTree 12:31, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:RSUEQ states that Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians and I believe this should be a general translation guideline.

Regarding your first question, could you provide a source or link demonstrating that BPS translates "Kelurahan" as district? To my knowledge, BPS translates "Kabupaten" as regency, while "Kota" is variably translated as city or municipality, as shown in examples 1 and 2.

As for your second question, I prefer to retain original names without translation. Thus, for North Central Timor Regency, it should be rendered as "Timor Tengah Utara Regency," and this consistent with following sources 1, 2, 3, 4 and many more. Ckfasdf (talk) 13:27, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Answering only the second part, we should go with reliable sources on a case-by-case basis. Some smaller entities are almost never discussed in English-language sources, in which case we should use the Indonesian name. It's not of any help for our readers when we e.g. talk about "East Rantebulahan" when this name for the district is virtually unknown beyond machine-translated web content (and perfunctorily machine-translated abstracts of lesser academic works). Or another example, it took some time before it rang a bell when I came across "Far Southeast" (= Tenggara Jauh, and old term for Southwest Maluku) in a paper. Only if English translations have gained some currency beyond such "non-content", we can consider to use them. –Austronesier (talk) 14:04, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Austronesier Apologize for late reply. No I meant that some BPS documents translated "Kabupaten" as "District"; and some "Kecamatan" as "Subdistrict". Here's an example [2] by South Barito Regency BPS branch translating Kecamatan Dusun Selatan to "Dusun Selatan Subdistrict" Nyanardsan (talk) 03:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just a comment based on the link above, it seems that publication still translate "Kabupaten" as Regency as mentioned in the abstract The publication “Dusun Selatan Subdistrict in Figures 2019” is a continuation of previouspublications that are published periodically by BPS-Statistics of Barito Selatan Regency". So, I don't really see the issue. Ckfasdf (talk) 03:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it has been well-established in Districts of Indonesia#Definition that the use of "subdistrict" to describe kecamatan is an artifact of the Dutch colonial designation of onderdistrict. Furthermore, there is no guideline on Wikipedia that instructs us to use official translations. Certainly, in many cases, an official translation guides how a word is used in the wider public, but if the wealth of English-language reliable sources use a different translation, the second option takes priority. This would apply to the second question regarding translations of place names as well. Fortunately, there is more abundant precedence of not translating cardinal directions in place names from Japan, e.g. Nishitokyo versus West Tokyo, Higashiōsaka versus East Osaka, Higashi-Nakano Station versus East Nakano Station, etc. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 17:29, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alright then, thank you. So I suppose the consensus is we translate "kabupaten" as "regency" like usual, as well as "kecamatan" as "district", while also not translating cardinal directions on the name of districts unless stated else by majority of public English-language translation (?) Nyanardsan (talk) 07:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seems the case has been closed, but I would like to cast my opinion regardless. I second this answer by Ckfasdf for the second question. I prefer to retain native/original names. "North Central Timor" sounds very mouthful and confusing. Also I'm biased towards enhancing the use of Bahasa Indonesia when I can so that hopefully it became mainstream and be improved further. -EvoSwatch (talk) 06:07, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is never closure on this, despite any claims to contrary. The problem is endless - and a lot depends on what is considered acceptable by specific editors at a point in time. There rarely is consensus, as just when a group of editors think they agree, another editor who is not in phase with something along the line of this noticeboard, will come along and change usage, and again the issue carries on regardless of any conversation here.

The spelling of Sukarno/Soekarno, Soeharto/Suharto for instance.

I do think that the conversation need to continue, with or without reliable sources, and lets hope it continues, in WP:AGF. JarrahTree 06:23, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:? (film)#Requested move 9 April 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 23:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have request RfC Talk:Djong (ship) on a "History and geography" request for comment. Anyone interested can give their comments and review the evidence presented by me and Nitekuzee, thank you! Merzostin (talk) 10:40, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]