Wikipedia:Featured article review/Pedro I of Brazil/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by Maralia via FACBot (talk) 17:40, 10 February 2015 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Pedro I of Brazil

Notified: Lecen, DrKiernan, Astynax (original nominators)

I am nominating this featured article for review because...

A featured article cannot actively mislead its audience, in any way.

If we're going to use historic artworks to show him, we need to use as accurate as possible copies of those artworks, as they, in themselves, become part of the story of the person. File:Unidentfied artist - Portrait of Dom Pedro, Duke of Bragança - Google Art Project.jpg is by the Google Art Project, who are noted for taking great care in getting colour balances accurate. File:Anônimo - D. Pedro, Duque de Bragança.JPG is a random, low-quality image off a random internet site. lies about its source, and post-hoc mangles the colours.

However, the group who originally nominated it are literally edit warring to keep the bad-quality, inaccurate depiction of the painting in the article, and claiming that the historic painting is a racist depiction that has to be digitally modified to be a better representation of him. " There have been attempts in populist revisionism to adjust portrayals of fair-featured popular leaders to make them look more like the general populations of today." [2]; "He was white, you ignorant racist" [3] - the image is from c. 1835, so roughly contemporaneous with Pedro I, who died in 1834; hard to say if it's posthumous or not.

Wikipedia should not be in the position of actively misrepresenting its subjects. This includes major, important historic documents about them - and a painting is a document. It might be inaccurate. In fact, it's a painting; I'm sure it's inaccurate in many ways. But one can't make up conspiracy theories ("populist revisionism"; etc.) or claim that the reliable source (the Google Art Project) is wrong purely because of said conspiracy theories.

To quote our article on the Google Art Project:


As I said, highly reliable source.

We can't have misrepresentation in a featured article, and that includes changing historical documents. I don't think we need to delist it, but we cannot let the situation stand: Either the image needs to go completely, either the image needs changed to the reliably sourced version, or proof needs to be provided that it's not a reliable source, despite it's very good reputation. Adam Cuerden (talk) 00:28, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't understand anything you just said. Really. You opened a FAR because you didn't like a painting in an article? This painting? --Lecen (talk) 01:38, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Conspiracy theories aside, the purpose of using images in an article is, according to policy "to increase the reader's understanding of the subject." This article is not about a painting, but about a historical figure who reliable sources report was fair-skinned with brown hair (as the other images in the article show). The oversaturated, contrasty image which was introduced made him look like he had black hair with tan skin and garishly colored decorations. Though condition and variations of these official portraits may be at fault, the image proposed makes his dark blue tunic look black and the background a foreboding brownish tone. Official portraits were made by the dozen from the same archetype, and Google's Art Project itself hosts at least 2 knockoffs of this model. When the size is reduced for display in the article, the distortions in hair and saturation are worsened. Some images on Wikipedia are heavily color corrected, some are entirely the original artwork of editors, but the goal is the same: to illustrate the article. As I attempted to explain on the article talk, the proposed image is even more different than how Pedro I is described in the article's text. • Astynax talk 08:49, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Close without FARC. This dispute is over which of two images should be used as the main image. The two images are in fact identical apart from the resolution (which is high in both cases but slightly higher in the "darker" version) and color balance. The color balance in the "lighter" version was, originally, identical to that in the "darker" version (see previous versions of the file for confirmation) but the yellow tones have since been reduced. It is this reduction in the yellow tones that Adam objects to on the grounds that the subsequent tone, particularly of Pedro's skin, is unverifiable.

In my personal experience, old artworks tend to yellow with age, and so the tones in old artworks are often now not those that were originally painted. I also note the contemporary description of Pedro quoted in the article: 'After "years under a tropical sun, his complexion was still light, his cheeks rosy".' I also note that the reduction of yellow tones has been applied consistently over the entire artwork, and by doing so the tones of the braiding and ribbon look, to my eyes, more natural. They do not look too blue or unnatural to me. Also, it is unlikely that the skin tone of someone descended exclusively from European royalty 200 years ago is any different from the skin tone of someone descended exclusively from European royalty today, and so it is not rational to suppose that Pedro's skin tone would be darker than that of royalty today, or indeed other royalty of the time.

Consequently, on the balance of the written evidence that Pedro had light rather than olive skin, the propensity of older artworks to darken and yellow with age, and the comparison between the skin tone of the manipulated image and that of other comparable people, I do not feel that the digital manipulation of the image (reducing yellow tone) has damaged the artwork or rendered it misleading or significantly altered the image from what was originally intended by the artist. DrKiernan (talk) 10:12, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You can't just change paintings on a whim! That's basically the opposite of good practice. That's terrible, and, frankly, given the results, whoever modified the image clearly has no idea what they're doing. Adam Cuerden (talk) 09:32, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You say google art project "are noted for taking great care". Now the google file purports to be the copy of this picture that hangs in the Pinacoteca in São Paulo. Look at this painting actually hanging on the wall in the gallery: [4][5][6][7]. Still think the google color balance is more accurate than the other file? I don't. It's no more or less reliable than any other internet source. You claim that the current lead image is a "random, low-quality image off a random internet site" but it is the exact same file as the google file. Look at the google file and the original unmodified other file side by side at the same resolution. They're identical. DrKiernan (talk) 12:48, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
'Your argument is that because uncolourbalanced snapshots look different, and very different from each other, they should be considered more accurate. That's mind-boggingly stupid, and basically shows you have no clue what you are talking about. Seriously, cheap personal cameras don't have any colour fidelity. Take a photograph of a picture you own without flash and compare it to the original image. Though that you think that the other three photographs are the same means that you probably aren't going to see a difference... Adam Cuerden (talk) 13:39, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, my argument is not that. Read my argument again. And don't call editors, or their arguments, stupid. DrKiernan (talk) 13:44, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Expanded. And the argument is completely ignorant, there's no point engaging with and argument that only works from incompetence. I'm sure you have many fields that you're competent in, but you're so far from even beginning to get to competence to judge images if you're making the argument you're making... Adam Cuerden (talk) 13:47, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Your continued insults and misrepresentation of my opinion just makes your own arguments look weaker. DrKiernan (talk) 13:49, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Also, my apologies: I presumed that the editor had actually used the source he said he did, which is the one given in the description, instead of replacing it with a Google Art Project image then mangling that. I was presuming that the source was [8] - the first upload - which would have meant the editor had some competence Adam Cuerden (talk) 13:52, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Even if the painting is a issue I don't see why this is necessary. At worst we would need to remove the painting (Not calling for that) and doing that would not negatively effect the article to a point where it should no longer be featured.--65.94.252.63 (talk) 22:57, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: If the nomination continues, it needs to be listed at WP:FAR (see step 5 of instructions).

Notifying @WP:FAR coordinators: , as I am not sure, that all of them are aware of this nomination yet, as the main page shows no update. GermanJoe (talk) 13:41, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Coord comment: as far as I can tell the issue wrt FA status was raised only 2 days ago (please correct me if I've missed an earlier discussion), so if this FAR is to go forward it would be on hold for at least a few more days as the talk-page step continues. However, if the review concerns solely which image should be used and no other WIAFA problems, I wonder if an RFC might not be a more productive approach than an FAR. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:39, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that an RfC on the image is the appropriate course. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:49, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, but given the claims of racism being thrown out willy-nilly by one of the article's FA nominators, it would need to be a very carefully monitored RFC. Adam Cuerden (talk) 19:25, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also note: The nominator for this FAR is running a concurrent request for deletion at Wikimedia for the image being used in the article. Considering that the image is being discussed in at least 2 more appropriate places, further discussion here of an issue that has nothing to do with FA criteria is unwarranted. • Astynax talk 19:19, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see that this is necessarily relevant to meeting the FA criteria. I get the concern about not altering works of art. However, Google Art also has this image of Queluz National Palace's copy of the painting, which is similar in coloration to the lighter of the two being argued over. You can see a comparison of the two Google Art images here. Either the Queluz copy of the painting is poorly done/very deteriorated, or Google Art has done a terrible job of capturing it—and I think either conclusion is relevant here, as it means either (1) at least one copy of the painting truly is quite light, or (2) Google Art image quality is not beyond reproach. Maralia (talk) 03:23, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

FAR is not dispute resolution, and the issues raised here are not sufficient for removal of FA status. Close review, and raise issues in appropriate forums, or run an RFC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:43, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Close without FARC. Legitimate concern/dispute, but can be handled via RFC. --Laser brain (talk) 20:17, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Close without FARC. Considering the uncollaborative atmosphere in parts of this dispute, FAR is certainly not the right place to solve it. GermanJoe (talk) 15:30, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Closing note: Closing this as a procedural keep. The prevailing opinion here is that this is a content dispute and perhaps better suited for an RFC. Maralia (talk) 17:40, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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