Wikipedia:Featured article candidates

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This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page.
This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page.

Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ.

Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time.

The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, Buidhe and Hog Farm—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators:

  • actionable objections have not been resolved;
  • consensus for promotion has not been reached;
  • insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met; or
  • a nomination is unprepared, after at least one reviewer has suggested it be withdrawn.

It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support.

Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as  Done and  Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, used to hide offtopic discussions, and templates such as {{green}} that apply colours to text and are used to highlight examples without altering fonts. Other templates such as {{done}}, {{not done}}, {{tq}}, {{tq2}}, and {{xt}}, may be removed.

An editor is allowed to be the sole nominator of only one article at a time, but two nominations may be allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback.

Nominations in urgent need of review are listed here. To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere.

A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the {{FAC}} template should remain on the talk page until the bot updates {{Article history}}.

Table of ContentsThis page: Purge cache

  • WP:FAC

Featured content:

Featured article candidates (FAC)

Featured article review (FAR)

Today's featured article (TFA):

Featured article tools:


How to nominate an article

Nomination procedure

  1. Before nominating an article, ensure that it meets all of the FA criteria and that peer reviews are closed and archived. The featured article toolbox (at right) can help you check some of the criteria.
  2. Place {{subst:FAC}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article and save the page.
  3. From the FAC template, click on the red "initiate the nomination" link or the blue "leave comments" link. You will see pre-loaded information; leave that text. If you are unsure how to complete a nomination, please post to the FAC talk page for assistance.
  4. Below the preloaded title, complete the nomination page, sign with ~~~~, and save the page.
  5. Copy this text: {{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/name of nominated article/archiveNumber}} (substituting Number), and edit this page (i.e., the page you are reading at the moment), pasting the template at the top of the list of candidates. Replace "name of ..." with the name of your nomination. This will transclude the nomination into this page. In the event that the title of the nomination page differs from this format, use the page's title instead.

Commenting, etc

Commenting, supporting and opposing

Supporting and opposing

  • To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see the review FAQ for an overview of the review process.
  • To support a nomination, write *'''Support''', followed by your reason(s), which should be based on a full reading of the text. If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this. A reviewer who specializes in certain areas of the FA criteria should indicate whether the support is applicable to all of the criteria.
  • To oppose a nomination, write *'''Object''' or *'''Oppose''', followed by your reason(s). Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the objection, a coordinator may disregard it. References on style and grammar do not always agree; if a contributor cites support for a certain style in a standard reference work or other authoritative source, reviewers should consider accepting it. Reviewers who object are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their objection has been addressed. To withdraw the objection, strike it out (with <s> ... </s>) rather than removing it. Alternatively, reviewers may transfer lengthy, resolved commentary to the FAC archive talk page, leaving a link in a note on the FAC archive.
  • To provide constructive input on a nomination without specifically supporting or objecting, write *'''Comment''' followed by your advice.
  • For ease of editing, a reviewer who enters lengthy commentary may create a neutral fourth-level subsection, named either ==== Review by EditorX ==== or ==== Comments by EditorX ==== (do not use third-level or higher section headers). Please do not create subsections for short statements of support or opposition—for these a simple *'''Support''',*'''Oppose''', or *'''Comment''' followed by your statement of opinion, is sufficient. Please do not use a semicolon to bold a subheading; this creates accessibility problems.
  • If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so, either after the reviewer's signature, or by interspersing their responses in the list provided by the reviewer. Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, or add graphics to comments from other editors. If a nominator finds that an opposing reviewer is not returning to the nomination page to revisit improvements, this should be noted on the nomination page, with a diff to the reviewer's talk page showing the request to reconsider.



Mountain pigeon

Nominator(s): AryKun (talk) 16:45, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Been a while since I've nominated anything here, so thought I might as well put some of my older articles through here. This is about a genus of pigeons from Indonesia and it's pretty short, so have fun! AryKun (talk) 16:45, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Support I couldn't find anything significant that you hadn't covered, even a parasite! Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:35, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

All the Light We Cannot See

Nominator(s): Lazman321 (talk) 05:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

All the Light We Cannot See is a 2014 novel written by Anthony Doerr, released to critical acclaim and commercial success. A Netflix adaptation will be released on November 2, 2023. This is my second nomination. I withdrew my previous nomination because of an academic summer program that prevented me from finding time to address the critiques raised. Since then, I have found time to address some points brought up in the previous candidacy. I hope to finish this candidacy in time for nominating it as the TFA on the date of, if not the release of the adaptation, the novel's tenth anniversary. I would prefer suggestions to be specific rather than overly general; telling me there are still prose issues is not good enough unless you tell me what those issues are. Lazman321 (talk) 05:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • and Werner Pfennig, a bright German boy who is accepted into a military school because of his skills in radio technology, before being sent to the military. - the comma after technology is confusing, since commas were previously used in that sentence to list characters and then to describe them. Either cut the comma or "before being..." entirely
  • Done: Removed the clause. Lazman321 (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The novel is written in a lyrical style - I'm not too sure what this means- is it a novel-in-verse?
  • That's not what lyrical means. Lyrical has been defined as "having an artistically beautiful or expressive quality suggestive of song" [1], "expressing personal thoughts and feelings in a beautiful way" [2], and "expressing strong emotion in a way that is beautiful and shows imagination" [3]. It's basically saying the writing style is expressive. Lazman321 (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • and almost all of the chapters alternate between Marie-Laure's and Werner's stories, which parallel each other. The narrative has a nonlinear structure, flashing between the Battle of Saint-Malo and the events leading up to it. - do the chapters flash between Laure's and Werner's stories, or between the Battle and events before? There's conflicting info here, as far as I'm reading it
  • It's both, actually. I've rewritten the two sentences for clarity. Lazman321 (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • It might be worth clarifying the whole "alternating timeline" thing at the start of "Plot", before the first subsection
  • Won't that be redundant, given the analysis section discusses the alternating timeline? Lazman321 (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • who spends his time broadcasting old records of his dead brother across Europe - he broadcasts records formerly owned by his brother? Or recordings of his brother?
  • I've rewritten the sentence for clarity. The brother had recorded audio recordings that were meant to teach science. Lazman321 (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • transmitting secret messages alongside - "alongside" seems like the wrong word- "through" makes more sense
  • Done, though I also removed the piano recording information as they were broadcast alongside the messages, but is not significant for the sake of summary. Lazman321 (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • During this, von Rumpel unsuccessfully searches the entire house - "entire house" suggests he also searched the attic where the gem is
  • Done: Removed "entire". Lazman321 (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

More soon MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 12:57, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@MyCatIsAChonk: Addressed your concerns so far. Lazman321 (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Nominator(s): Sammi Brie (she/her • tc) 17:42, 22 September 2023 (UTC), User:Nathan ObralReply[reply]

Ask either of us about the most culturally significant TV station we've written and this will be our unequivocal answer. Channel 62 in Detroit started life in September 1975, after a years-long struggle to secure financing, as WGPR-TV, the first Black-owned TV station in the United States. Owned by a Black Masonic group, it was a high-visibility station at its launch with very ambitious programming plans, key portions of which never materialized. However, some of its local shows stuck, and it produced a string of notable local and national Black broadcast professionals. In 1994, a major TV station affiliation switch swept the nation and left CBS looking for a new affiliate in Detroit. CBS failed to secure a better station, and the desperate network bought WGPR-TV from the International Free and Accepted Modern Masons, in the process removing the Black- and community-oriented programming channel 62 had long carried (and raising some community outcry). Today, the former WGPR studios are on the National Register of Historic Places, and in the old TV studio is a museum devoted to its history.

CBS renamed the station WWJ-TV, for the radio station it owned there. For many years, it never thoroughly invested in this high-number station. It floated but quickly abandoned an attempt to start a news department in 1995; upon merging with WKBD-TV, that station's ailing news department briefly extended to channel 62 before dying; and there was a morning weather-and-news program for a few years. That changed in a big way in February, when a full online streaming service and news department known as CBS News Detroit debuted.

This is a big dog of a project, and it's one that we have found quite fulfilling. It is also Nathan's first time at FAC. Sammi Brie (she/her • tc) 17:42, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Don't use fixed px size
    • Fixed by script.
  • File:William_V._Banks.jpg needs a stronger FUR. Why is it necessary to visually identify the individual here, when he has his own article?
    • Also leaving room for Nathan to chime in. The association with WGPR-TV and Banks is incredibly strong—the museum in the former WGPR studio is named for him. I can understand the concern and that typically images like this are restricted to the subject's biography. It'd make sense to beef up the FUR, but Nikkimaria, do you think it should just be removed at this point?
    • Nathan here! For some context, Dr. Banks founded the Modern Masons in 1950, led the organization when it purchased WGPR radio and was instrumental in WGPR-TV even taking to the air. It even became a family affair of sorts; his daughter gave up a career as a college instructor to manage the station's day-to-day affairs. Station personnel have credited Dr. Banks for making them look beyond a show's budget to focus on the substance. That was largely why I had chosen to include his picture here, as he was almost inextricable. Nathan Obral • he/him • tc • 05:54, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:WGPR_TV.png has an incomplete FUR
  • File:WWJTV_CBS_Detroit.png: if this is non-free it will need a stronger FUR, but why is it believed this is non-free and the lead logo is too simple to warrant copyright protection? They are of similar design so it seems logical either they are both free or they are both non-free.
    • Frankly, an editor in 2009 who probably didn't know about PD-textlogo. That's the correct designation, imo, and I've retagged it appropriately. Comments to here: Sammi Brie (she/her • tc) 05:38, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nikkimaria (talk) 04:35, 23 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Duffield Memorial

Nominator(s): Usernameunique (talk) 06:09, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Relatively inconspicuous, somewhat overgrown, and more than a hundred years old, the Duffield Memorial sits in the yard of a church nearly a millennium older. Overshadowed as it is, however, the memorial tells an interesting story. An early work by Herbert Maryon, it commemorates members of a prominent local family. At the time, it was considered "quite unique, at any rate in this neighbourhood", and even now, it is an "unusual example of Art Nouveau design in metal work".

This article gives a thorough overview of the memorial and the surrounding context. It was thoroughly reviewed in March by KJP1; since then, TheShinji69 was able to take photos, and I've given the article another review. The article is at, or close to, the best possible version of itself, and so is ready to be nominated here. --Usernameunique (talk) 06:09, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

  • "roles as director and chairman of a range of businesses, including the Reliance Life Assurance Company, the London Board of the Norwich Union, the Chelmsford and Braintree Gas Companies, and the Chelmsford and Blackwater Navigation Company" He was director AND chairman of each of this, or should it be "or"?
  • Both, except for the second position where the source notes him as chairman but doesn't mention director. I've reworded it accordingly. --Usernameunique (talk) 21:07, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • 1918[footnotes]) Don't footnotes usually follow punctuation except in the case of a long dash?
  • Normally yes. In sentences like this, however, with parenthetical about individual people, I tend to keep the citations in each parenthetical, so it is clear which are about whom. --Usernameunique (talk) 21:02, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Where is William Bartleet Duffield buried? France? Here? Do we know who ordered the monument and also had the second plaque affixed? Someone presumably paid. Do we know how much?
  • It's unclear. Another look at newspaper articles from the time, however, found an article about his probate that discusses leaving some of his estate to his niece, along with £100 for "a memento". That probably answers the question of who paid for it, and gives an idea of cost. (Although according to the Bank of England, that £100 is worth some £4,700 today—presumably there was some left over after the plaque.) I’ve added this to the article (in a footnote, since it's not definitive). Meanwhile, even a turn through the primary sources doesn't address where he was buried. --Usernameunique (talk) 22:27, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Is there anything that can be said about the drive to list the memorial?
  • Unfortunately no. I sent emails to both Historic England and the church when writing the email, but did't get a reply from either. I'll follow up, but am not optimistic. --Usernameunique (talk) 19:33, 23 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Interesting.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:48, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks, Wehwalt. Responses above. --Usernameunique (talk) 22:32, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Support with reservations on the issue of comprehensiveness, per my queries above. I will continue to monitor and hopefully I can make this a full support.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:51, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by RoySmith

Lead section
  • William Ward Duffield is a red link to W. W. Duffield, but other members of the family who are mentioned are left unlinked. Is there some reason to believe William Ward in particular is notable enough that he might merit an article in the future?
  • There are a number of articles on him and A. S. Duffield—the two red links in the article—that indicate that they clear the notability threshold. That might be true for others also, but those ones seemed clear when looking up the people mentioned in the article. --Usernameunique (talk) 23:43, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The memorial covers the grave. Is this a single grave in which Marianne, William Ward, and William Bartleet are all buried?
  • Yes, at least as to the first two. Per a newspaper article on W. W. Duffield's burial, "the interment [was] in the grave where the remains already rested of the late Mrs. Duffield", and per a 1912 article on the memorial, it was "erected … over the grave of Mr. and Mrs. Duffield". As noted above, however, it's unclear whether William Bartleet Duffield was also buried there, or simply commemorated there. --Usernameunique (talk) 23:00, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Starting with The memorial covers the grave... There's three sentences in a row of the form "fact 1 and fact 2", which sounds stilted. Maybe something like "The Art Nouveau memorial, comprised of edging and a vertical cross, covers the grave. The edging consists of riveted sections of copper alloy sheet metal which follow the rectangular perimeter of the plot, connected by short pillars at each corner. The cross is of the celtic wheel variety, decorated in relief with a leaflike motif." Well, you get the idea. Longer sentences will flow better, and try not to repeat the same sentence structure over and over. Also try to avoid repeated words, such as in "The cross is a Celtic wheel cross".
  • Reworded, how does it read now? --Usernameunique (talk) 03:34, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Works of Herbert Maryon says the memorial is "Bronze", this article says it's a copper alloy. Bronze is indeed a copper alloy, but why not just call it bronze here?
Just to clarify, I see that the source used calls it "copper alloy", but it's worth exploring why Works of Herbert Maryon calls it "bronze" and reconcile the differences.
  • Changed to bronze. The reason for the discrepancy is that the 1912 articles say bronze, whereas Historic England says copper alloy. I think we're safe relying on the latter. --Usernameunique (talk) 23:06, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Newspapers at the time termed the memorial "very fine" and "quite unique" for the area,[1][2] and in 2022 it was designated a Grade II listed building. this is an odd juxtaposition of things that happened 100 years ago and something that happened recently. For the lead, I'd mention the Grade II listing and leave out the minor newspaper quotes.
  • The article is quite short (DYK check says 5979 readable prose). MOS:LEADLENGTH suggests one or two paragraphs for under 15k. and this is 1/3 of that, so I'd say trim the lead to about half its current length, covering the most important facts from the main body. For example, I'd note that it's Grade II listed, but leave all the details for later.
The Duffields
  • William Ward Duffield was born on 25 November 1820 to James Duffield, I assume James had the assistance of his wife in this. Do we know her name or anything about her?
  • Somewhat surprisingly, there's very little information on either James Duffield or his presumed wife. The father is likely the Mr. James Duffield who died in 1830, leaving "a widow and large family to bewail", but it's not definitive, and articles about the family don't seem to mention the mother. There are also mentions of a James Duffield and Joanna Ward Duffield (buried in the same churchyard as the Duffield Memorial) but, again, it's supposition based on primary sources. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:31, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • He went on to become a successful solicitor, who is "He"? William Ward or James?
  • including as clerk Drop the "as".
  • His private positions included a number of roles, drop the "a number of roles", just tell us what they were. As before, in and as chairman, no need for "as". You can "Be X" or "Serve as X", but don't mix the idioms.
  • Done, and generally tightened up that sentence. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:35, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Duffield married Marianne Bartleet, there's a lot of Duffields being discussed; be explicit about which one you're talking about in this sentence.
  • three surviving children: William Bartleet Duffield (1861–1918[8][9][10]), Arthur Stewart Duffield (1867–1930[11][12]), and Florence Marion Duffield No need to keep saying "Duffield". I'd write this as "three surviving children: William Bartleet (1861–1918[8][9][10]), Arthur Stewart (1867–1930[11][12]), and Florence Marion". I suppose we can infer gender from their first names, but that can sometimes be tricky, so perhaps " sons William Bartleet (...) and Arthur Stewart (...), and daughter Florence Marion"?
Herbert Maryon
  • It's good to give some explanation of who this guy is beyond "he designed the thing", but this level of detail into Maryon's resume seems excessive. Are there some parts of his prior experience which would be particularly relevant to gaining the skills needed for this design?
  • 75 metres (246 ft) per MOS:UNCERTAINTY, you can't convert a measurement with two significant figures into one with three. It should be "75 metres (250 ft). I believe {{convert}} has a parameter to control that.
  • As above, saying "bronze" rather than "copper alloy" would seem to make more sense, unless there's some good reason not to do so. In which case, maybe Works of Herbert Maryon needs fixing :-)
  • The cross ... features a Celtic wheel cross avoid repetition of "cross".
  • a medallion, now removed... Do we know why or when it was removed?
  • No, unfortunately, nor have I been able to find any photos of the memorial from before the removal. There was some discussion of this at the GAN review. --Usernameunique (talk) 01:55, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Two copper plaques are riveted ... The west-facing plaque Avoid repeating "plaque". Perhaps "... the west-facing one"?
  • The organisation cited historic interest, architectural interest avoid repetition of "interest".
  • Historic England termed the memorial "an unusual example of churchyard memorial design that is also memorial to prominent local citizen William Ward Duffield and his son you can't do anything about HE's repetition of "memorial", but at least don't compound it with another one of your own :-)

I'm not sure this section adds anything. The first image ("Plaque on the front of the Duffield Memorial's pedestal") could be incorporated into the main body, and "St. Mary's churchyard (Duffield Memorial not visible)" doesn't add anything to the reader's understanding of the memorial, since it's not visible in the photo.

Done. --Usernameunique (talk) 23:53, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
General organization

I'm a little concerned that as much space is given to peripheral topics (the entire Background section) as is to the main topic. In particular (as I noted above), I think the Herbert Maryon section could be trimmed considerably. I'd also move the Description section up closer to the top of the article, since that's the main topic.


Interesting article. I'll take a look at what I see so far, then take other editors' comments for consideration after my comments are resolved. I've put invisible comments to divide my comments based on sections. GeraldWL 08:56, 23 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Would be great if infobox img caption states when the img is taken "(pictured XXXX)"
  • Is there any way in which the gallery imgs are placable at the body?
  • Done. Placed one of the two in the body, and removed the other per an above comment. --Usernameunique (talk) 01:59, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Images need alt text. Per W3C, "Note that it does not necessarily describe the visual characteristics of the image itself but must convey the same meaning as the image."
  • Are there no columns for the Times ref?
  • I'm not sure what you mean here. There are two Times refs, both obituaries, which are both noted as being in the "Obituary" column for that day. Did you mean something else? --Usernameunique (talk) 04:56, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Ah, I didn't know the Obituary was the column name. AFAIK Times refs always have an alphabetical column, like p. 27 col. E, or something like that. It's alright, though. GeraldWL 07:14, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Interesting. I don't see those for these ones; the full page for the Maryon obit is here, if you'd like a look. --Usernameunique (talk) 07:26, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Would be great if all refs have a "via" using the via parameter
  • Thanks for catching that; I normally do that, but evidently forgot to here. --Usernameunique (talk) 04:52, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Link to whatever edging means here, it could mean several things
  • I took a look at both edge and edging but neither seem to have anything on point—and, as your invisible comment goes to show, some that are very much not on point. We could perhaps include a link to edging on Wiktionary, but that suffers from the same problem, i.e., there are a number of definitions, only one of which is what is meant here. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:18, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I guess I was being too overanalytical here lmao. GeraldWL 07:14, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • If sheet metal is linked here, should be too in infobox
  • "The cross is a Celtic wheel cross"-- repetition of cross --> "The cross is in the Celtic wheel style"
  • Why not paraphrase the third para? If it's too short then it can be merged with para 2.
  • Done, and generally shortened. --Usernameunique (talk) 07:32, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Chelmsford-based", "London-based"
  • "included [...], including [...], including"-- repetition. first "including" could be changed to "such as", second "including" to "like"
  • Why are some names redlinked, some not?
  • As noted above, the two that are red linked are the two that I thought clearly met the notability guideline. Others might also, but there was enough coverage on those two in particular that red links seemed worthwhile. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:31, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Dup link for Uni of Reading
  • My bad!
  • "After the Second World War"-- comma
  • "Sutton Hoo ship-burial led to his appointment"-- WP:SEAOFBLUE
  • Link Church of St Mary
  • It's already linked in the background section; are you suggesting a second link? --Usernameunique (talk) 05:38, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Duplicate refs of [1][2][3]
  • Responded to two comments below. --Usernameunique (talk) 07:01, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Would love to have a footnote for LUX PERPETUA LUCEAT EIS (translation), and link AIX LES BAINS
  • For the time being, I've linked the Latin to Eternal Rest, which gives the translation and background. I also put in a request for what appears to be a reliable source that discusses the topic, and (once in hand) will update accordingly, probably with a footnote. For Aix-les-Bains, I've now added that it was W. B. Duffield's place of death, with accompanying link. --Usernameunique (talk) 06:41, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I found this by Oxford that contains a translation, though I don't think you need to delve deep into the phrase, worrying it might go offtopic.
  • That would work, but I'd like to add a one-sentence footnote saying something like "'May perpetual light shine upon them', a line from the Requiem æternam prayer." I'm looking for a reliable source for the second clause, and I think the chapter in question may work. --Usernameunique (talk) 07:12, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • How about this? It does state the Requiem name. GeraldWL 07:16, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Dup refs of [3] in paras 2, 3, 4
  • Preferences vary, but I strongly prefer citing every sentence. It's more precise, and there's less risk that later edits make it unclear what is cited to what. --Usernameunique (talk) 06:45, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Dup refs [1][2]
  • I would love for a brief descriptor of what a Grade II listed building means.
  • Done (and for Grade I, for the church). --Usernameunique (talk) 06:59, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Dup refs [3]
  • In the listed building article, Grade II is given asterisk but why not here?
  • Grade II and Grade II* are different things. Grade II signifies "buildings that are of special interest", and the asterisk indicates "particularly important buildings of more than special interest". Why they couldn't simplify things by just doing Grades I/II/III is beyond me. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:15, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks very much for your comments, Gerald Waldo Luis. I believe I've addressed everything above, with a single exception—for the Latin, let's give it a day or two to see if I can get the source, otherwise I'll use the website you found. --Usernameunique (talk) 07:38, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No worries, I'll wait until you've reached a conclusion on the source. Also additional comment, should there be a hatnote to Duffield War Memorial?

Welcome to New York (song)

Nominator(s): Ippantekina (talk) 06:59, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

As if Taylor Swift was not popular enough, she made a NYC tribute song to keep up with Jay-Z or Frank Sinatra. In my honest opinion, this song will never be considered a NYC tribute classic. But hey, at least the synths are fun to listen to! I believe this article is well-written, well-researched and neutral, and I would appreciate any and all comments. Cheers, Ippantekina (talk) 06:59, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from MusicforthePeople

I don't have too many comments; feel free to ignore those you think are more trivial.

  • For the audio link at the bottom of the Infobox, the song title is capitalised as "Welcome To New York" as opposed to "Welcome to New York" as per the rest of the article.
  • I adhered to MOS:TITLECAPS. Although the title in the link capitalizes "To" in prose it should not. Ippantekina (talk) 07:44, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • in support of her fourth album, Red, – needs the year of its release in brackets since that hasn't been established.
  • landmark of her life – would "in her life" be better?
  • 1980s artists Prince and Cyndi Lauper – I would have put these in alphabetical order.
  • Dan Caffrey from Consequence said – pipe this as ''[[Consequence (publication)|Consequence of Sound]]'' as that's what the publication was called at the time. Pipe it in the reference as well.
  • In Consequence, Sasha Geffen opined – change this in prose and in the reference to Consequence of Sound per above, but don't link it in prose because that'll be overlinking.
  • The A.V. Club needs unlinking in the critical reception section as it is already linked in the previous section.
  • For ref #22 (Boston Herald), author should be Jed Gottlieb (per archived ref).
  • For ref #67 (Clash), author should be Mat Smith (per archived ref).
  • For ref #68 (Billboard), author should Glenn Rowley (per archived ref).
  • For Clash and Billboard because there are multiple authors from the editorial board, I wouldn't cite these two specifically as authors of the refs. Hopefully this is understandable. Ippantekina (talk) 07:44, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That's all I've got. MusicforthePeople (talk) 19:03, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for your review! I've addressed all comments except where I left my remarks. Best, Ippantekina (talk) 07:44, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
All fine by me. Support MusicforthePeople (talk) 08:44, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I Am the Best

Nominator(s): ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 14:03, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about a K-pop song called "I Am the Best" by 2NE1. It is often regarded as a classic in the K-pop world with it being one of the most popular songs that went against the "cute" or "sexy" female stereotypes that were common amongst Korean girl groups around that time. In addition, it was one of the first Korean-language songs (after Gangnam Style) to make waves in the western world upon being featured in a Microsoft commercial, with various critics noting "I Am the Best" as one of the works that helped spread the Korean wave. This is my first featured article nomination, and was also the first article rewritten by me to be upgraded to good article status back in December 2020. After a large amount of edits since then, I believe this article meets FA quality standards. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 14:03, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Temple of Apollo Palatinus

Nominator(s): UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:54, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about what was, at least in its day, one of Rome's grandest temples. Built by the not-quite-yet emperor Augustus on the Palatine Hill, the temple played a major role in Rome's religious life and political ideology. It was, by turns, a senate-house, war memorial, public library and distribution centre for sulphur. The article has to wrestle with the deeply complicated issue of the join between ancient text and modern archaeology: the reconstruction of the complex around the temple is deeply controversial and its excavations have not been brilliantly documented. The article has undergone a peer review from Golden, Modussiccandi and Caeciliusinhorto, to whom I am greatly obliged for points both stylistic and substantive, and a Good Article nomination by Simongraham. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:54, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Tim O'D

Claiming a spot now. Review soon-ish. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:56, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ignorant on the subject matter, but having a bash:
  • The Temple of Apollo Palatinus ('Palatine Apollo') - is this translated? From Latin, I presume. If so, could use a language template.
  • 'Palatine Apollo' is a translation of Apollo Palatinus, but we use language templates for text in the non-English language, and the overall name given ("Temple of Apollo Palatinus") is English in the same way that "Cathedral of Notre Dame" is: we wouldn't put a French language template halfway through that name. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Fair enough. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:39, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • sometimes called the Temple of Actian Apollo,[1] - as this is in Construction, does it need to be cited here too?
  • Ditto It has been described by the archaeologist John Ward-Perkins as "one of the earliest and finest of the Augustan temples".[2]
  • Quotations are one case where MOS:LEADCITE does want an inline citation: the first is perhaps on the side of caution, but my logic was that "has been called" implies that someone has called it that, and therefore we're effectively quoting them. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • According to his biographer Suetonius, he claimed to have "found Rome a city of brick, and left it a city of marble".[5] - very famous quote, but is it needed here? Bit of a cliche in my opinion.
  • This came up at PR: this is what I put in response there:

It is a very famous quote, and I think there's value in indicating to the reader that Augustus claimed to be engaged in totally rebuilding the city; that claim both gives evidence for what precedes it and useful context for what follows it. John Ward-Perkins uses it in exactly the same way, so there's a secondary-source context for connecting the quotation with the building programme. We could rephrase to something like "Augustus claimed to have totally refounded the city of Rome and to have beautified it in the process", I suppose, but that would seem like a bad swap to me.

Did you have a particular change in mind? UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not if you're happy with it. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:37, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • senate-house or senate house?
  • I opened up a recent academic book to see where they went (the Cambridge Companion to the Age of Nero), and they have one of each. Perhaps a little old-fashioned (certainly seems less common in phrases like charnel house in recent publications): hyphen removed. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • connection - British English article, so consider using "connexion" instead.
  • Reads as very archaic to me, as a native BrE speaker. Wiktionary says it hasn't been common since the 1950s. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Bit of a shame that the original version is slowly receding into the rear mirror of history, but what can you do. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:39, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Cossutius, a brick-maker employed by Gaius Asinius Pollio, a politician and literary patron of the early Augustan era, was likely involved - try Cossutius, a brick-maker employed by Gaius Asinius Pollio—a politician and literary patron of the early Augustan era—was likely involved.
Good idea: done. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

More to come. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 13:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • Will have a look soon. FunkMonk (talk) 21:45, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • At first glance, Diana and Attica are WP:duplinked.
    • Much appreciated - thank you. Fixed those two duplinks: for some reason, the "highlight duplicate links" doesn't seem to be working for me. UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:45, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Not your fault, but it's unfortunate that this image[4] doesn't have an info template on Commons, looks like a mess.
  • Shouldn't Rome be linked? And link Roman tradition and Greek world perhaps?
  • "whose worship originated in the Greek world, was considered a 'foreign' deity" Isn't that the case for most Roman gods?
    • Afraid not. It's a long story, but in short, the two traditions descend from the same source, so while the Greeks and Romans both have the "same" god as Jupiter/Zeus, it isn't accurate to say that the Romans "got" Jupiter from the Greeks. However, Apollo doesn't seem to be part of that inherited tradition, but rather to have spread into Etruscan and Roman religion directly from contact with Greek cities. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:26, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "against Mark Antony, Octavian" Could specify what their occupations/ranks were to contextualise their roles?
    • Neither concept really works all that well in ancient Rome, particularly not at this time. We've already introduced Octavian as the controller of the Roman state, and Antony as his enemy in the civil war: I think that's enough for what's needed in this context. Adding that both were former consuls would be distracting and somewhat tangential to the point at hand: that status had very little to do with either of them being in the position they were. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:26, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "who reports having read it in the Greek author Asclepias of Mendes" How does someone read something in an author?
    • A classicist-ism ("I read it in Homer" = "I read it in the works of Homer"): changed. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:26, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Link Augustus and Apollo in image caption, as well as other terms not linked in captions.
    • All relevant terms now linked on first use in captions. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:26, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "already considered particularly sacred" For what reason?
    • I don't think there was a particular reason: there isn't a sharp divide between sacred and non-sacred ground in Roman culture, which is where the adverb particularly came from. The whole Palatine was somewhat sacred in that it was the site of Rome's original foundation, ordained by the gods as the seat of Romulus's city; to a lesser extent, that was true of the whole city, and we get a very good sense from Aeneid 8 of the generally but non-specifically numinous feel of the place to the Romans of Augustus' time. The sources are clear that this specific site was more sacred than the rest, but don't go into detail as to why - I don't expect anyone in 36 BCE could have given you a clear answer. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:26, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • State what Apollo was the god of?
    • The "god of" concept doesn't work very well for classical religion: it's better to think of gods as being associated with or patrons of certain things (which may overlap with the purviews of other gods). Apollo is associated with a big bunch of vaguely-related things. From the Background section, Apollo was held in Roman culture to represent discipline, morality, purification and the punishment of excess: I think that's the best explanation (it's Zanker's) that gets the point across without going into the tiny minutiae. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:26, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Greek art was held to have an "acknowledged moral superiority"" But why would the temple of a Greek god then be considered unfit for being within the city?
    • Those two things aren't the same: Greek art is very different to Greek gods, and the specific belief that only Roman gods should be enshrined within the pomerium never implied that nothing Greek should exist there. I strongly suspect that this "belief" only existed in retrospect (Juno, who was meant to have originally been a goddess of Veii, had temples within the city), but that would be OR to include: the sources all report it as fact. Remember that there's also a big time gap here: we're talking about the mid-fifth century BCE for the founding of Apollo Sosianus (and so the alleged prohibition on a temple within the pomerium), while Apollo Palatinus (and the "moral superiority of Greek art") is four centuries later, by which time building a temple to Apollo within the city clearly isn't a problem. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:26, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Elias

Already skimmed this very interesting article. I'll leave my comments shortly.el.ziade (talkallam) 07:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Mostly done, except for languages per (e.g. MOS:LINKEXAMPLES and MOS:OVERLINK and antithesis on similar grounds (the article shares a name but is a more specific concept). Thank you for these; some good spots in there. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Location section: Excavations from the early twenty-first century indicate that the house was largely destroyed... are you referring to Zink's excavations?
    Unfortunately, it's not clear, and I was a little more specific about the date than Wiseman allows (now changed). He cites a paper which I can't get hold of from 2006. The excavations in question are of the house, not the temple, so it's likely that they cover projects outside the scope of this article. I've amended to be as specific as I think we can be. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:31, 23 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Same section: Roma Quadrata without italics, link it please.
    • The italics fit the MoS (it's Latin and not, like Circus Maximus, a naturalised expression in English: indeed, they come from the Latin language template used for it) - now linked on first use. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The passage The temple's cult statue of Apollo was depicted on the Sorrento Base, a late-Augustan or early-Tiberian (that is, c. 14 CE) statue plinth first identified as a depiction of it by the German architectural historian Christian Hülsen in 1894. seems out of place, maybe insert in the description section?
    • It needs to be in Reception, as the Sorrento Base was made about half a century after the temple was opened, and wasn't ever part of it. It does make for an awkwardly short paragraph, but only because it's the temple's only real footprint in the visual arts. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Other scenes show human beings worshipping sacred objects, do we really want to use "human beings"?
    • I think so, because we're contrasting them with gods, (semi-divine) heroes, and monsters like Medusa. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In Excavation section: Arcus Octavi --> Arcus Octavii? Also link first instance to Arch of Octavius in the Architecture section.
  • Lead, location, and Excavation section: capitalize Domus in domus Augusti.
    • I don't think that would be correct: it's a description ("the house of Augustus"), not a name. Capitalisation here would be inconsistent with how the cited HQRS do it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Italicize "pronaos" consistently.
  • May have more later. el.ziade (talkallam) 09:16, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by RoySmith

Just a few random things I've spotted:

  • The lead is four paragraphs, all of which start with "The temple [...] was". Could you find some less repetitive phrasing?
  • Infobox: the alt text "Temple of Apollo Palatinus is located in Rome" appears to being picked up automatically from the image title, but it's not useful as a non-visual description. I believe the "map-alt" attribute of {{Infobox ancient site}} will let you set something more useful. Also, the caption "Shown within ancient Rome" doesn't make sense in isolation. Perhaps something like "Location of the temple within ancient Rome"?
  • Sculptures and artwork: The image of Apollo Barberini needs an alt text.
  • Function: The alt text for Relief with Tripod (49350890031).jpg doesn't do the image justice. I would certainly include that it's a broken fragment of sculpture. Also, while I'm not an expert on this stuff, I think "bas-relief" describes it more accurately than "flat".
  • Excavation: add "stone wall" to the alt text.
Thank you for these: all good points and all done. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:21, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Nominator(s): Sandbh (talk) 12:30, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

While the idea of what a "metal" is has been around since BCE times it was not until over two millenia later that the term "nonmetal" appeared. It was an unfortunate term since explaining what something is not, is difficult.

The structure of the main body of the article has only six sections: Definition—Properties—Types—Prevalence—Uses—History.

There is a table at the end comparing the properties of metals and the different types of nonmetals.

The gist of the nonmetal article should be able to be got by reading only the topic sentence of each paragraph. The technical subject matter means there is some jargon, which I've attempted to minimise.

Since the article was last at FAC, in May-June 2023, it’s been further copy edited, checked for compliance with MOS, the title simplified, the scope honed, and the lede table streamlined. Sandbh (talk) 12:30, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Graham Beards

Sorry but I think many of the later additions are not improvements. The prose suffers badly from padding, redundancy, editorializing, and verbosity. Here are examples:

.* Within the realm of elemental composition,

  • underscoring their pivotal role in the composition of the planet.
  • Vital to the composition of living organisms are the nonmetals hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, and nitrogen, which constitute a significant portion of their structural makeup.
  • More broadly speaking,
  • A degree of ambiguity surrounds
  • Further contributing to the evolving landscape of elemental classification
  • Approximately half of nonmetallic elements exist in gaseous states, (= are gases)
  • with the majority of the remainder being lustrous solids (= most are)
  • bromine stands as the singular nonmetal that manifests as a liquid (= the only)
  • invariably manifest as solids (= are usually a solid)
  • Noteworthy
  • Notable
  • It is noteworthy
  • As to their chemical behavior
  • Physically, the unclassified nonmetals appear to lack rhyme or reason.
  • In the context of the periodic table
  • are recognized as (= are)
  • An impressive facet
  • A few noteworthy examples
  • The majority of (= most)
  • Curiously (really?)
  • The showcase moment
  • "Sodium and potassium, in contrast, exhibited a remarkable behavior—they floated on water." !! Aluminium foil, gold foil, iron ships etc float on water.
Yes, for over two millenia, metals were distinguished from other substances by the fact that (in bulk) they were heavier than water. When Davy, in 1807, isolated sodium and potassium their low densities challenged the conventional wisdom that metals were ponderous substances. Many chemists did not regard them as proper metals. In 1808, Erman and Simon suggested using the term metalloid to refer to the newly discovered elements sodium and potassium. Their suggestion was ignored by the chemical community. The two new elements were eventually admitted into the metal club on the basis of their chemical properties. On the other hand, Davy's discovery "annihilated" the line of demarcation between metals and nonmetals—Hare RA & Bache F 1836, Compendium of the Course of Chemical Instruction in the Medical Department of the University of Pennsylvania, p. 310.
Aluminium was not discovered until 1824, quite a few years later.
I will add have added a footnote about this. Sandbh (talk) 06:09, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ref Wiberg 2001, pp. 257–258, 261–262 is a red linked

Fixed. Sandbh (talk) 06:09, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I still think the "Some cross-type properties" is way too noisy.

After so many FACS, we shouldn't be seeing these issues. Graham Beards (talk) 13:49, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you Graham Beards.
Re prose, FAC #6 was an austere version without (as you put it) "padding, redundancy, editorializing, and verbosity". I'm happy to revert to the more austere version of prose.
I am sorry that you find the "Some cross-type properties" table at the end of the article to be "way too noisy". It has only five physical properties and five chemistry-based properties. What is it that you find to be way too noisy?
I am sorry that you feel that after so many FACs, we shouldn't be seeing those issues. Before FAC #7 the article had been to peer-review twice and was copy-edited by an editor from the Guild of Copy Editors. Sandbh (talk) 04:47, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Since then there have been numerous changes. For example:
  • "About half of nonmetallic elements are gases; most of the rest are shiny solids." (April 30)
  • "Approximately half of nonmetallic elements exist in gaseous states, with the majority of the remainder being lustrous solids." (Current)

Which is not an improvement in my view. Graham Beards (talk) 05:47, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree and will change this to back to the April 30 version. Sandbh (talk) 23:10, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Graham Beards: I copyedited the whole of the article, offline, to address the prose issues you raised including the examples (which were helpful, thank you). I've posted the revised article. Sandbh (talk) 13:37, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That's infinitely better and I am close to supporting. There was one fused participle, but I couldn't think of a better wording. How attached are you to the table "Some cross-type properties". I don't think it is needed and it is difficult to understand. Graham Beards (talk) 15:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you Graham. I will take a closer look at the table, see what can be done about it, and report back here. Sandbh (talk) 00:26, 23 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Graham Beards: That table was not my best work. I have divided the table into two smaller tables and undertook some decluttering and tidying. The introduction to the tables has been rewritten to provide a better explanation and rationale. I feel that this subsection now brings things together in a pleasing way, given its location at the end of the article. Sandbh (talk) 05:52, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Mike Turnbull

At present the lead includes the statement In contrast, metals are good conductors and most can easily be flattened into sheets and drawn into wires because of the free movement of their electrons. The part "because of the free movement of their electrons" seems unnecessary, because while it may explain the conductivity I don't think it explains the malleability and ductility and is in any case not needed in the lead of an article about nonmetals. The article ductility is the target for all the terms "flattened into sheets", "drawn into wires" and (in the first main section) "malleability" and "ductility", which suggests that fewer links are needed or some of the text could be removed. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:51, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you Mike. I agree the text about free or unfree electrons doesn't need to be included in the lede, and have trimmed it. Per your suggestion I've replaced malleable and ductile with "pliable". Sandbh (talk) 05:13, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Nominator(s): Launchballer 11:41, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The OnlyFans model Piri began releasing music in 2021 after entering into a relationship with Tommy Villiers of the Villiers family. Their single "Soft Spot" went viral on TikTok and Spotify, prompting EMI to sign them, re-release "Soft Spot" and release "Beachin" and "Words", and for Polydor to release "On & On", Froge.mp3, a cover of "Unlock It", and "Updown" and "Nice 2 Me". Thanks to Pseud 14 for taking a look before nomination (see the article's talk page); any further comments will be appreciated.--Launchballer 11:41, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

550 Madison Avenue

Nominator(s): Epicgenius (talk) 14:37, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about the old AT&T Building, later the Sony Tower, in New York City. Built in 1984, the skyscraper has a distinctive marble exterior with a huge entrance arch at the base and a Chippendale-like notch on its roof. A bold architectural statement for its time, 550 Madison Ave. was seen as a panacea to New York City's mid-1970s fiscal crisis. It went through two owners in two decades and became an official NYC landmark in 2018 following a controversial plan to significantly modify the building's exterior and lobby.

This page became a Good Article two years ago after a Good Article review by A person in Georgia, for which I am very grateful. I think it's up to FA quality now, and I look forward to all comments and feedback. While the previous nomination was archived due to lack of commentary, I hope that isn't the case this time around. Epicgenius (talk) 14:37, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from HAL

I really enjoy these NYC architecture entries. Comments soon. ~ HAL333 03:51, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

I'm not sure all architectural terms with which the reader may be unfamiliar have been linked, such as "spandrels" "shear walls/tubes" "mullions" "capitals".
Also cladding.
"There was initially no retail space on the Madison Avenue front because, according to critic Nory Miller, "AT&T didn't want a front door sandwiched between a drug store and a lingerie shop."[44]" Did this change? "Initially" implies a change.
"repudiated claims" Is anything stronger than "denied" really needed?
More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:13, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks @Wehwalt. I've addressed all three of these points now - I added some links, removed "initially", and changed "repudiated" to "denied". – Epicgenius (talk) 13:21, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The presence of the atrium not only allowed additional floor area but also was aligned with the atrium in the IBM Building at 590 Madison Avenue" What was the practical effect of this? Did it form a continuous public space?
    • Yep. I've reworded the sentence now to clarify this. Epicgenius (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "of a rebuilt annex to the west." If this is the one rebuilt in the early 2020s, then you've referred to it previously and it should be "the" rebuilt annex etc.
  • "inscriptions on the pavers" What kind? Is this the sort where you spend to have your name inscribed on a brick?
    • Kind of, but the pavers have poetry instead of names inscribed on them. Epicgenius (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • You refer to the amenity space created on the 7th floor twice, with slightly varying description, and once is "by 2020", the conversion is taking place, and the other mentions the renovation in the early 2020s. I'd check for consistency, plus be sure you need to mention it twice.
    • Thanks for the catch - I didn't even notice that the amenity space was mentioned twice. I've reworded this now. Epicgenius (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • " Johnson/Burgee recalled that" reads a bit oddly.
    • I changed this to "Johnson and Burgee", as the men, not their eponymous firm, set aside the questionnaire. Epicgenius (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "swap some of the expensive materials with cheaper materials" I might simplify "substitute cheaper materials"
  • "from the cash-strapped AT&T" I might delete the "the"
    • This proposed modification feels awkward, since it would change the sentence to "purchase the building from [adjective] AT&T". If the adjective were something like "defunct", it would sound even more strange ("from defunct AT&T" would sound like it's missing a word). Epicgenius (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • " in comparison to" maybe substitute "given"?
  • " regarded the changes as akin to a television commercial in exchange for a public benefit." I'm not sure what's being said here.
    • It was worded awkwardly. The visitor said, "my impression is that it's like commercials on television. If Sony wants to maintain the space, they're using the commercials to pay for it." This seems to me like commercial sponsorship, so I've changed it accordingly. Epicgenius (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:58, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Thanks for the review Wehwalt. I have now addressed all of these issues. Epicgenius (talk) 19:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Support Wehwalt (talk) 19:59, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Treat Myself

Nominator(s): NØ 14:48, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about Meghan Trainor's third album, Treat Myself. Before she made us look again, there was this commercial disaster. Trainor's label delayed it several times, spanning over a year, and can probably write a book about what not to do when promoting an album. She has stated in interviews that it is her best work. And if you ask me, track 1 on this album is the best song she has released! Thanks a lot to everyone who will take the time to give their feedback here.--NØ 14:48, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Media review (pass)

The images are licensed appropriately and have alt text (suggest including one for the alternative cover). The audio sample has an appropriate FUR and meets WP:SAMPLE. Pseud 14 (talk) 20:18, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • She conducted the first session - not sure if this is just a music industry term, but I (a classical musician) am reading this as she literally conducted the song; perhaps "ran" or "held" would be better
  • This is a great point and I would have never realized this unless you raised it.
  • She said it was "fun, dance-y stuff with a little funk" and had an '80s and '90s feel" - missing quotation mark before '80s?
  • Dani Blum of Pitchfork described Treat Myself as a combination of several ballads, funk, and "garish shudders of EDM" and wrote - using and in "and wrote" shortly after using and for "and 'Garish...'" is a bit confusing; I think it'd be better as "Dani Blum of Pitchfork described Treat Myself as a combination of several ballads, funk, and "garish shudders of EDM", writing..."
  • Lyrically, it discusses - replace it with "the album" or just the album's name
  • Wl Evil twin in on which Trainor blames her bad decisions during a night out on her "evil twin"
  • Mike Nied of the same website, Lucy Mapstone of The Irish News, and Lauren Alvarez of Forbes thought the album was "worth the wait" - did all three say those exact words? If not, attribute the quote, and abridge the other two to just "critics" or "reviewers"
  • I was surprised too but they did, indeed, all use those words!

MaranoFan, all done, great work as always! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:10, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you so much for the swift review, MyCatIsAChonk. Very helpful and all done I think.--NØ 06:50, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Support - if you get any time, I have an open FAC and two open FLCs that I'd appreciate comments at- thanks! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:01, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Nevermind, I didn't see your comments at season 3 until just now- thank you so much! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:04, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Meghan Trainor was placed...." - re-introduce her in the body as "American singer-songwriter Meghan Trainor"
  • "Nied opined Trainor successfully" => "Nied opined that Trainor successfully"
  • That's it, I think - great work as ever!! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:17, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done--NØ 15:31, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Came here from PR! As usual, I've put invisible comments to divide my comments based on sections. GeraldWL 08:58, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Per img reviewer's cmts, there should be alt text for alt cover
  • I'm not sure what 2020 Trainor pic serves other than decoration. Even with that said, we already see her face twice in the infobox, with a good headshot in the alt cover, so there's not much value for another pic.
  • This would probably be the TFA image so I would prefer to keep it in. I would also disagree that it is decorative. An image of the article subject from the month of album release seems like a natural fit for inclusion.
  • Refs 69-82 are unarchived, why so?
  • They don't since they are automatically produced by the Album chart template. I believe archives are considered redundant here since the database cited directly is an archive itself.
  • "Trainor worked with producers including Mike Sabath, Tyler Johnson, Ojivolta, and Andrew Wells." Is there a reason the other producers aren't included?
  • Nine producer names would be a bit much for the lead and unlikely to interest the average reader. I have limited it to producers who contributed to multiple tracks.
  • "and others commented" --> "while others commented"
  • "for the second time in December 2016"-- I think adding briefly on when was the first time, would make "for the second time" more sense.
  • By vocal cord surgery, you mean Thyroplasty?
  • No sources use this word so no.
  • "and she wanted to bring Spears, NSYNC and Backstreet Boys-inspired pop songs "back to radio"." Not sure what "back to radio" means? Was she saying she wanted this album to have similar vibes with the songs of these artists?
  • She wanted songs influenced by these artists to be played on the radio again.
  • Link Valentines
  • "Scherzinger's appearance is credited to the Pussycat Dolls"-- should link The Pussycat Dolls and explain what it is in relation to Scher.
  • "the same girl gang hoots and hollers and fluffernutter hooks"-- I'm sure it's not really referring to the peanut butter but there should probably be clarification on the slangs.
  • I introduced a link for girl group and removed fluffernutter altogether since there does not seem to be any obvious way to paraphrase this.
  • The Hear to stay lyrics should prob have a space before the "/"
  • Why does that lyrics separate each line with / but for "Opinion" it's written like a usual sentence?
  • Good catch and should be consistent now.
  • Release looks all good!
  • Since there are only four critics used in Meta, I think it'd be interesting to list who only is considered in their aggregation. Also interesting since you use all the critics in this section.
  • Why not italicize Idolator?
  • The citation style I follow typically sticks to the publications' respective articles when it comes to italicization. The one for Idolator never italicized it.
Thanks for the very insightful review, Gerald Waldo Luis. I hope everything has been addressed.--NØ 15:31, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Appalachian Spring

Nominator(s): MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 19:48, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Martha Graham's ballet technique was one of the first American styles of dance, and it was beautifully executed in Appalachian Spring, a ballet commissioned for Graham and the composer Aaron Copland. Graham's unique choreography and the suites created from Copland's serene score remain essential in the American repertoire. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 19:48, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Mirokado

One of my favourites. First impression is: a well-written article.

  • §Background: last para: "bizarre scenes" (or whatever phrase is used in the source) should be quoted so it is not in Wikipedia's voice.
  • §Commission and composition
    • is "composing on the music" American usage? It seems incorrect to this British reader, I would expect "composing the music".
    • "and the rest of the community attends a revival meeting": perhaps American usage again? I would expect "the rest ... attend ...".
    • "Despite a new December deadline": It would be clearer to say "December 1943 deadline" here, since presumably "fall 1944" is meant after "spring of 1944" in the previous sentence.

More later. -- Mirokado (talk) 21:59, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

All fixed- no, those aren't AmE spellings, just typos on my part, thanks for catching them! Clarified everything else MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:42, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • §Commission and composition: "The original scenario...": I'm familiar with the music but not the ballet, so it was a bit confusing that the main characters first mentioned in the content are not those mentioned in the lead. This is clarified later, but an extra clue here would be helpful. The shortest way of doing this would be to say "... used characters (later changed) based on..." or similar.
  • §Production:
    • Perhaps "collaborator with" is better than "collaborator of".
    • Quote "Fear of the Night" and any other references to episodes.
  • §Premiere and reception: "Copland himself took a modest opinion...": "had a modest opinion", we have an opinion but take a stance or position.
  • §Later performances: "Lynn Garafola compared Copland and Graham's collaborations to that of Stravinsky and Diaghilev": should be "... collaboration to that of ...". (I have verified that the reference provided supports this content).
  • Referencing: multiple-page ranges need the |pp= param in sfn.

More later. -- Mirokado (talk) 21:59, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

All fixed, added an efn for the first comment instead of parentheses- many thanks again! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 15:05, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • §Later performances: have there been any notable performances of the ballet outside the U.S that we can mention? The current para has only U.S. performances.
  • §Themes: "Crist describes this as an embodiment of the link between wars among generations: as World War II was linked to the Civil War, the Bride brings together the life on the homefront in the 19th and 20th centuries." I'm not at all sure what is meant by "World War II was linked to the Civil War". Unless there is a causal link I am unaware of, I think we should rephrase this sentence to reflect similarity of circumstance and experience rather than any direct link. (I have verified that the reference provided supports this content, so I am also disagreeing with how Crist has made her point).
  • §Instrumentation: the layout of the columns is weird (on my system using Chrome on linux with a largish monitor): the columns in the first group are widely spaced and in the second group, the first column is wide and the second and third are narrower but seem to start where the second column of the first group ended. I don't see anything obviously wrong with the source, so some investigation is needed.
    Thanks. I have tweaked further so that both first columns are 38% wide and the final column takes the remaining space. The columns line up and the total specified width does not exceeed 100%. -- Mirokado (talk) 10:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

More later. -- Mirokado (talk) 21:59, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Reworded the themes issue, and I think I got the columns thing fixed, let me know if it's still displaying wrong on your end. For the foreign performances: I can find very little info about performances. Most of the info I did get about performances was, as you noticed, from US newspapers. I can't find anything about a European or Asian premiere; I did find this 1946 article about a London performance of the suite, but it doesn't explicitly state that it's the European premiere. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 00:13, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not much we can add about performances without sources. This section would need to be updated if more information becomes available. -- Mirokado (talk) 10:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • §Prologue: the description moves from present tense to past tense. I think it needs to stay in the present tense apart from "The four Followers join the Revivalist, who has observed the land with the Pioneer Woman." which is correct so.
  • §Eden Valley:
    • "Halfway, the music calms down...": "Half way through, ..." would I think read better.
    • "... cued by a short phrase by a woodwind.": "... cued by a short phrase from a woodwind." would avoid repetition of "by".
  • §Wedding day:
    • "The music becomes heavier for and the jagged rhythms return ...": "The music becomes heavier for a while and ..."?
    • 'The second part of "Wedding Day" depicted the "old fashion charivari" mentioned in the scripts.' Is this referring to something which was later removed? If so we need to clarify, for example "Originally, the second part..." and perhaps say what replaced it. Otherwise, "depicts" should be in the present.
  • §Interlude: present tense tweaks needed here too.

More later. -- Mirokado (talk) 10:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Fixed all - the tense should be all good, and the charivari thing was supposed to be present tense, thanks for spotting that! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:13, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I have just checked with some other articles about musical works, and generally the present tense is used, so I think a few more tweaks may be needed. If it seems too complicated to describe the changes, I may make a few (more) copyedits and you are welcome to change further, discuss here or whatever. -- Mirokado (talk) 21:22, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • §Commission and composition: "old fashion charivari" needs some context here. We could wl Charivari#North America which says "In some communities the ritual served as a gentle spoof of the newlyweds, intended to disrupt for a while any sexual activities that might be under way." Since that is half way through the section, I suggest an efn as well as the wikilink.
  • §Interlude:
    • "greatly connected": I think "strongly connected" would be better.
    • "..., the Followers following along.": well of course they are, it's their job! Can we rephrase, perhaps "..., accompanied by the Followers."?
  • §Fear in the Night, ...:
    • "... he warns the couple of their love." The problem is presumably the impending separation, or whatever, not their love itself. Is it possible to rephrase this?
    • "His agonized, frenzied dance was informed by the experiences of Peter Sparling, a dancer in the company who would dance the role in later productions." What experiences – the linked article does not give any clues? The article says he danced with Graham from 1973–1987, so was he really involved with her in 1944 or thereabouts? If he influenced later productions, we could say "has been informed" rather than "was informed".

More later. -- Mirokado (talk) 21:22, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Fixed all- I just linked the charivari because I couldn't find a citation for an efn. I clarified the Sparling fact, but that may be dangerously OR-y, since the article uses rather vague language. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 23:33, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks. Your changes are often better than my suggestions. -- Mirokado (talk) 23:55, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I appreciate it; I'm impressed by the fine details you're catching. Still working on my encyclopedic tone! Also, I think I;ve fixed the past/present tense issue- details about the music/dance are present tense, and details about Copland's composition of it are in past tense- let me know if I missed any. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:00, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from ZKang123

I will take a look at this. I had studied the composition before in my A levels days, and I might have some understanding of the ballet.--ZKang123 (talk) 02:04, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "Appalachian Spring is a ballet and orchestral work by the American composer Aaron Copland and the choreographer Martha Graham."
    • From my understanding, Aaron Copland composed the music while Graham did the ballet choreography. This article talks about both the music and the ballet. The way its ordered at the moment seems to imply the choreographer was involved in composing.
    • I will rewrite to "Appalachian Spring is a ballet and orchestral work by American composer Aaron Copland, with the original choreography by Martha Graham."
      • I implemented this with a small change to phrasing; technically, both Graham and Copland devised the scenario, so I kept them together with "created" MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "It was composed for Graham upon a commission by Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge" – "Commissioned by Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge, Copland composed the ballet for Graham"
  • "The work was very successful after its 1944 premiere, winning Copland the Pulitzer Prize for Music the following year." – "The music saw its success in the 1944 premiere, earning Aaron Copland the Pulitzer Prize for Music in the subsequent year."
  • Wikilink Great Depression
  • "Copland's political ideals began shifting further left" – "Copland's political ideals aligned towards the left"
    • Also wikilinke "left"
  • Remove the semi-colon with a comma.
  • "as a result, he had the idea to create ordinary music for the public, music that was easy and accessible enough for the general citizen to understand."
    • "As a result, he began composing ordinary music that were easy and accessible enough for the general citizen."
  • "He used this idea" – "He incorporated this concept"
  • ", and the final result drew from a number of the revisions." – I find this clause irrelevant after you mentioned of various revisions before

Background and commission:

  • I have to admit you included a bit too much of Copland's backstory into this article. I would simplify further to focus more on his compositional tutelage and cut away stuff about his family (which I can read further in the composer's biography).
    • E.g. "The Copland family lived above their Brooklyn department store, which his parents spent much of their time managing; as a result, Copland was entrusted to the care of his older siblings." – this could be removed and skip over to him being close to his sister
    • "Exposed him" – "introduced him"
  • "consisted of" – remove of
  • "Copland wrote much of the composition on the West Coast" – I'm curious, why was he on the West Coast? If I recall he's from New York
    • Not stated in the sources. Franko says he was just in Hollywood, and Graham says he was "far" from her New York location MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • Might then say he was also working at Hollywood. Was also checking with Oxford Music Library (Grove Music) on his biography by Neil Lerner which stated "Dividing his time between East and West Coasts, Copland continued to score Hollywood films throughout the 1940s." --ZKang123 (talk) 01:40, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "an Indian girl to represent the land" – would clarify Native American instead of Indian. Also might wikilink Native American
    • Used "American Indian" instead, since it more closely aligns with the sources. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • I'd rather if you use "Native American", unless it's a country jargon (ex: Indian Reserve or statute Indian in Canada).--ZKang123 (talk) 02:10, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "contained an extra episode" – "included an extra episode"
  • "the premiere was pushed to the fall." – I guess of 1944?

More to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 02:07, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

All have been implemented; I replied above if I didn't implement the comment in its full form. Thank you! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Production, reception:

  • "the Daughter, now the Bride", "the Citizen, now the Husbandman" – would rather write "the Daughter to the Bride; the Citizen to the Husbandman" etc
  • "Four Followers of the Revivalist were added to the cast for a total of nine dancers." – So there are nine dancers in total overall? Or 13?
  • For the last two paragraphs of the production subsection, as it's more about the commentary and comments by critics, why is it in this section instead of the reception section? I will keep the parts of the intentions, then shift the actors' performances to the reception section.
  • Wikilink "The New York Times critic". Also John Martin

More to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:24, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

All fixed! On point three: these sentences are supposed to describe the choreography. I had a hard time deciding what counted as a review and what was effectively describing the dance, so I've cut some things. Let me know what you think- thanks! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:04, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Also fixed native american and added the west coast fact- thanks for finding that source! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:20, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Before I go on, may I know why the music and plot sections combined? I don't see as such for The Rite of Spring and The Firebird, though also for Petrushka (ballet).--ZKang123 (talk) 10:11, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@ZKang123, there is no particular reason to divide the two sections. The story and the music are closely connected, and explaining them at the same time is intuitive and helpful. Philip 2018 explains the plot and music the same way (though, with less detail). MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:02, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Also, I tried modeling much of this article and The Firebird after The Rite's article, since The Rite is a FA. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:21, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Alright thanks for the above explanation. And yes, I can see the parallels made, though bear in mind they are slightly older FAs. Continuing.

Music and plot:

  • "Suddenly, an energetic melody" – "A sudden energetic melody". Or just remove suddenly and write "burst forth" instead of "come forth"
  • "Swing-like" – further elaborate how the melody is "swing-like". Like, is it the rhythm, or the intervals?
  • Might also show an example of "jagged rhythms". Like, is it a dotted quaver - semiquaver?
    • The sources don't really elaborate on this. Pollack also describes the rhythms as "mov[ing] jaggedly"; based on my knowledge of the score, I can say that "jagged" is describing the 3/4, 2/4, to 5/8 metre change, but I can't find a source that reflects this; and, IMO, adding another musical excerpt would be a bit extensive, but if you think it's needed, I'm not vehemently opposed MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "caring melody" – "soothing melody"?
  • You mention of a duet (Eden Valley). You didn't mention what instrument was playing the energetic opening of this movement. Further elaborate. Or is this duet referring more to the ballet than the music? If so, then duo
    • The energetic opening was played by the upper strings and piano, so mentioning an instrument is sort of a moot point since it's half the orchestra. Otherwise, I've clarified that it refers to the dance MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "this time with louder and more forceful strings" – "this time accompanied by louder and more forceful strings"
  • "Copland achieves this by relating the music to American folk themes" – might further elaborate on other inspirations and folk elements incoporated
    • I can't find much other than the fiddling mentioned after and the relation to County Fairs mentioned before that sentence MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "such as the harmony or which instruments are playing" – "such as the harmony and the instrumentation."
  • "The music of "Fear of the Night" jolts and twitches, similar to the "Gun Battle" in Billy the Kid." – Jolts and twitches... I guess in mode (angry, sad etc)?
  • "becomes rushing and agitated" – "becomes rushed and agitated"
  • I might also note the slower tempo and harmonies (is it tonal and/or dissonant?) in "The Lord's Day" subsection
  • I recall in my American music studies about the "openness" of the ballet to reflect the "prairie" of the American countryside, with the wider range of notes and notably also illustrated through the longer-held notes for the slower sections. I'm not sure of the source, but I think you can relook into your sources. Optional if you can't find it.
    • I can find a good bit of information regarding the association of the prairie with Billy the Kid, but nothing about Appalachian Spring. There's certainly some level of association between Copland's Americana music and the idea of the Wild West, but the writings I found talked about Billy the Kid instead. Certainly a good point though- thanks for bringing it up! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • No other prose problems in the suites and recordings section.

That's all for me.--ZKang123 (talk) 09:43, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • ZKang123, thank you very much for your review- I've replied to some above, but I addressed them all! Many of the ones about expanding upon the description of the music or themes could not be implemented since I couldn't find any sources. That was one difficulty in rewriting this article- many sources talk about the history of it and the general idea of the plot, but few actually go in depth into the music or the themes (it's a miracle I was even able to have a themes section, you probably noticed it only uses four sources). Thank you for the review! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • You might want to refer to Aaron Copland's Appalachian Spring By Annegret Fauser, from page 39 onwards. If you can, try to dig up this article from The American Music Teacher. There are also doctoral dissertations on the music you can refer to, but I might urge caution given WP:PRIMARY. Tonal Coherence in Copland's Music of the 1940s (Kleppinger, Stanley V.), Copland and Stravinsky on the parallels between "APPALACHIAN SPRING" AND "APOLLON MUSAGETE", and Tonality and harmonic motion in Copland's "Appalachian Spring" (Rober, Russell Todd). I will hold off giving my support until more is elaborated on the music.--ZKang123 (talk) 14:05, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • What's the copyright status of the music itself?
    • As a music student, as far as I'm aware this piece was composed in the 40s, and I doubt the copyright has expired.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:53, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Coolidge_Auditorium_under_construction.jpg: where is this believed to have been published in 1925?
  • File:Pulitzer_Prizes_(medal).png is tagged as a 2D work, but medals are generally considered to be 3D. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:18, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria, I'm not sure what you mean by 2D tagged- can you clarify? The LOC website for the Coolidge Auditorium photo says it was published in 1925, and it was very likely published in the US since it was taken by a capitol architect. The music is under copyright internationally, but I believe the use is minimal, as in other FAs about copyrighted works like Short Symphony and Symphony No. 3 (Górecki). MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 12:17, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
PD-scan is based on mechanical reproduction of a 2D work - it can't be used for 3D works.
The LOC website says "published/created" - we don't know whether that means published and created, or just created, without more information.
Brief quotations from non-free works are allowed, but inline citation is required. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:39, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria: for the pulitzer medal, I added PD-coin, because I can't find anything else that would fit it. If this isn't proper, please let me know what is needed to verify that it's PD.
Coolidge auditorium: I am having an extremely difficult time finding information about this photo's provenance. The LOC listing says its found in a published guide called "Washingtonia Photographs". The (thankfully public domain) guide can be found online, but the page that mentions this photograph doesn't actually display the photo (see LOT 4021). Though it mentions a name on the back, I cannot find any information about a "John Crane", so the death date is unknown too. PD-US-unpublished won't work, since anonymous works must be created over 120 years ago to be PD, but I also can't prove its publication. Does the mention in "Washingtonia Photographs" qualify?
Added citations for the musical quotations. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 16:16, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
A simple mention without the image doesn't qualify, no - have you found any publication of the actual image? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:58, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria, no, I have not. The only place I can find it is in the LOC exhibit linked under sources. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 00:16, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Okay. You've stated that it was taken by a capitol architect - is that certain? I see "probably secured from" at the given source. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:23, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria: I didn't think "probably secured from" was sufficient- do you think it's enough to say it's PD since it's taken by a US gov't employee? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 00:26, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No - unfortunately without more information I don't think we can use it. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:29, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria Cut MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 01:36, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hey there! As an appreciation for the plethora of comments you put on my PR, I thought perhaps this would be a fun little QPQ. I've put invisible comments to divide my comments based on sections. GeraldWL 07:33, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Shortdescs must be as brief as possible, with the majority of articles having 40 or less characters. I think here, "music" can be dropped since the music is part of the ballet.
  • Trim some of the alt texts; per accessibility guidelines they must be brief enough for blind readers to get the gist of it. For example, photographic elements like B&W, sepia, chromolitograph, unless they are contextually important, can be dropped.
  • Infobox: Should "Coolidge Auditorium" be in brackets?
  • Pennsyl should be linked like the lead does.
    • The first occurrence of Pennsylvania outside the lead is already linked? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:39, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • I was referring to the infobox, sorry for not being clear. GeraldWL 04:41, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • For consistency the ref publishers should be linked: ref 19, 59, 87, 94, 121-124, 157. Also those in Sources.
  • Aaron Copland (121-124, 157) fits better as pub than web
  • Locations should be placed out of the ExLinks, e.g. "Aaron Copland Collection at the Library of Congress"
  • Since Portal bar has a white background, putting it above the navboxes would make it less awkward.
  • I think there should be a repeat of "Appalachian Spring" replacing "the ballet" in "The ballet follows the Bride" and "The ballet features eight episodes".
  • Shouldn't it be "in the United States"?
  • Link ragtime
  • "his left-wing political stances strengthened"-- Left-wing political stances, no need for pipe
  • "This "ordinary music" idea is certainly present"-- certainly sounds pretty subjective and essayistic, I think it can be replaced by other words, but removing it doesn't really change the intended message.
  • "about Medea" --> "about the Greek mythology figure Medea"
  • "Graham's east-coast-based work"-- the article doesn't hyphenate and decapitalize east coast
  • If my point on Medea was to be done, then Greek mythology in "drew from Greek mythology and French poetry" should be unlinked
    • I chose to not link Greek mythology beside Medea's name, since it's a passing mention; a link is more important here MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • There's a more specific Slavery during the American Civil War
  • Just wanna say, I love these meta footnotes, it gives the article a specific touch!
    • Thank you! I tried including information in efns in this article, rather than putting them in parenthesis or the like; the use of efns on Mahler, Debussy, etc is excellent and I strive to achieve the quality of those articles MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • If you were to list all eight episodes with individual refs, I don't think ref 44 is needed in "The final scenario featured eight episodes".
  • You start off number 1, 3, and 4 with the title, but then repeat it, e.g. "Prologue: Graham did not want "Prologue" to be long". It can be resolved with "Prologue: Graham did not want this chapter to be long".
  • "spring of 1944 [...] fall of 1944." "Avoid the use of seasons [...] as such uses are ambiguous".
    • I have no choice, the cited sources say use that time frame, and saying "the later months" is (IMO) more vague. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • I think spring and fall is easily interpretable as early and late 1944. The later months is definitely ambiguous but so are seasons. GeraldWL 05:08, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "a Japanese-American sculptor"-- I don't think Jap-Am is needed, like how you don't state Copland is Lithuanian-American.
  • "combined with Copland winning"
  • If you linked Pennsyl, then Hawaii, Tennessee, Indiana, and Florida should also be linked.
  • Link Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky.
  • "Throughout the "Prologue""-- chapter names shouldn't probably begin with "the"
    • Crist refers to the Prologue and Interlude with articles (see p176 and p169); so does Pollack. Because these are common musical terms, but should still be in quotes, the article is used MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Consonance and disonance should prob be linked in Backg rather than here, or link in both occassions
  • "Halfway through"
    • Not done- this is how it used to be, but was changed per a comment by Mirokado above
  • Link County fair
  • "Its great success made the (then on-tour)"-- not sure what the brackets serve, I think we can assume that the shows have ended.
    • "Then on-tour" shows that the ballet was still showing in theatres when the suite debuted; this in turn made the ballet more popular, and it was likely seen more as a result (but I don't have a source for that last point) MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Instead of making a footnote J, the prose can be tweaked to: "exist as created by Copland; in chronological order:"
  • Video recording or film? They're two really different stuff
  • "there over" --> "there have been over"
    I disagree that US states other than Pennsylvania, the setting of the ballet, should be linked; MOS:OVERLINK. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:51, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Perhaps, yeah. MyCatIsAChonk, feel free to ignore that cmt. GeraldWL 07:54, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Gerald Waldo Luis: I think I've gotten everything; if I didn't respond to a comment, I implemented/fixed it without question. Thank you so much for the thorough read-through! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Your welcome! I've responded to two comments, you can notice them by my signature. GeraldWL 04:41, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Gerald Waldo Luis Fixed both MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:27, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Adamson Tannehill

Nominator(s): TfhentzTfhentz (talk) 15:43, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about... Biography of Adamson Tannehill (1750-1820), military officer, politician, civic leader, and farmer. Tannehill had a significant role in the American Revolution as captain and commander of the longest serving rifle regiment of the war. He was an early leading citizen of Pittsburgh and a distinguished Pennsylvania politician who held several local, state, and national appointed and elected offices, notably including one term as a Democratic-Republican in the U.S. House of Representatives from 1813 to 1815 and president of the Pittsburgh branch of the Bank of the United States. He also served on the founding boards of civic and state organizations. He was active in the Pennsylvania state militia, eventually rising to the rank of major general in 1811. Moreover, Tannehill served as brigadier general of United States Volunteers in the War of 1812.Tfhentz (talk) 15:43, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • File:Tannehill_1776_commission.tif is mistagged
  • File:Fort_Pitt_in_1776.jpg: source link is dead, missing a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:38, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Corrected; both image files should be good to go now.Tfhentz (talk) 11:45, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

1912–13 Gillingham F.C. season

Nominator(s): ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:18, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

With 25 successful FAC nominations to date for seasons in the history of my favourite football club, and one looking like it's bearing down on goal with only the keeper to beat, here's number 27. This was technically the very first Gillingham F.C. season, as it was the first under that name, but like most of the seasons in the club's history up to this point it didn't produce much in the way of success. Feedback as ever will be most gratefully received and swiftly acted upon -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:18, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

  • "Gillingham also competed in the FA Cup; after holding Barnsley, the previous season's winners of the competition, to a draw at home in the first round, Gillingham were defeated in a replay at Barnsley's ground." I might divide the sentence after "Cup". Also, should Oakwell be piped?
  • "The name change would not be formally approved by the shareholders until the following summer but nonetheless the team played under the new name in the 1912–13 season.[6]" Perhaps rather than "but nonetheless", substitute a semicolon for "but"?
  • "The team ended a six-match winless run by defeating Coventry City 2–1 away from home on 16 November" Do we need "from home"?
That's all I have.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:23, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Wehwalt: - many thanks for your review, all should be done now! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:00, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Support. Looks good.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:04, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Pseud 14

  • and began October with two away games, losing 2–1 to Reading and winning 2–0 away to Bristol Rovers -- perhaps you can take out the second instance of "away" as it is preceded by a mention that these two are the away games in October.
  • On Christmas Day -- might be worth linking for context that it happened December 25th
  • That's all I got. As usual, another well-written work out of your Gillingham series. Pseud 14 (talk) 18:58, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support. Pseud 14 (talk) 21:58, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Source review

Impressive prose as usual- don't seem to be issues there, so I'll do a source review. No spotcheck. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:23, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Add Template:Use British English or otherwise appropriate
  • Ref 3 needs author (look at bottom of webpage)
  • It looks like most (if not all) of the citations are to clippings. Anyone can view these clippings, so the lock icon isn't needed. If it linked to the paper itself, it would require login, but viewing just the clippings is not exclusive

ChrisTheDude, I got nothing else, nice job! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:23, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@MyCatIsAChonk: - thanks for your review, all done! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:27, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Support - wow, impressively fast, I appreciate that! BTW, if you get extra time, I'd appreciate any comments at this FAC- thank you! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:29, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@MyCatIsAChonk: - sure, I will do my best to take a look over the weekend. BTW, can you clarify if you are both supporting on prose and passing the source review? Thanks!! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:45, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for reminding me, you think I'd know to clarify by now... support on prose and pass source review MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:46, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by NØ

  • Dick Goffin is linked twice somewhat closely in the September-December section.
  • I believe this sentence should not have a comma: "Gillingham began the season in poor form, and did not score a single goal in their first six home matches."
  • "Two days later, two goals from Lee secured a 2–0 win away to Stoke, whom the reporter for The Western Times said were "lamentably weak" - Are you sure this should be "whom"? Unless I'm wrong, if it's referring to the goals it should be "which" and if it's referring to Lee or Stoke it should be "who"(?)

Great work and a fun read. If you fancy reviewing one of mine, I have nominated another Meghan Trainor album above.--NØ 17:57, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@MaranoFan: - thanks for your review. I fixed the first two. In the third instance, "whom" is correct, because Stoke is the object of the verb. See here, where it says "How can you tell when your pronoun is the object of a verb or preposition? Try substituting the subjective-case pronoun he, she, or they for who or whom And then try substituting the objective-case pronoun him, her, or them. If he, she, or they fits, you should use the subjective option: who. If him, her, or them fits, you should use the objective option: whom. Keep in mind that you may have to temporarily rearrange the sentence a bit while you test it." If you rearranged the sentence and replaced Stoke with a pronoun, it would be "the reporter described them as...." not "the reporter described they as....", so per the above, "whom" is correct. Anyway, thanks again for the review, and I definitely plan to take a look at your latest Meghan Trainor FAC quite soon (was intending to do it last night but got dragged to Ikea - fun fun fun!!) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:28, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support--NØ 07:53, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

October 1 (film)

Nominator: voorts (talk/contributions) 21:54, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

October 1 is a Nigerian thriller film, directed by Nollywood veteran Kunle Afolayan, about a detective investigating a series of murders on the eve of Nigerian independence. The film was critically praised in Nigeria and received over a dozen awards. Following a thorough GA review from Daniel Case and a helpful peer review from TechnoSquirrel69, I feel that this is ready for FAC. I look forward to your comments. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:54, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@WP:FAC coordinators: Given that my previous FAC was not promoted and a spot check was never done, I assume this will need one to pass, but I wanted to check. Thanks, voorts (talk/contributions) 16:17, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
yes. You need a successful / passed FAC to be exempt from that requirement. (t · c) buidhe 16:37, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@WP:FAC coordinators: Okay to list this in the image/source check requests? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:17, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:36, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks! voorts (talk/contributions) 23:37, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • Done.
  • File:Morris_minor_october_1_(cropped).jpg: has evidence of permission been forwarded to VRT? If so, suggest adding the ticket to the image description page. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:26, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • It's on the page for the image that this is cropped from. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:14, 14 September 2023 (UTC) (belatedly signed)Reply[reply]
  • Ah, okay, thanks. I do think it would be worth repeating. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:34, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Do you know if there's a template for a derivative work? Technically the cropped version wasn't the photo reviewed by VRT, so it would be inaccurate to copy/paste the template there IMO. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:35, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There's not a specific template AFAIK, but {{VRT info}} would work. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:40, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done using the {{VRT info}} template. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:17, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • Why does the article use dmy dates if the title of the movie itself uses mdy? May be a very minor discrepancy, but the date bot isn't going to work in thr articles current format
  • I used DMY because my understanding is that Nigerian English uses DMY, but I can change it if you think it's a major issue.
  • Done
  • The plot uses "Kill" or "Killer" too many times, IMO; use some other words (murderer, menace, etc)
  • Done
  • ...older audiences: "For the older generation, especially those who were part of independence, they will be able to see themselves in this film. For the younger generation it's a platform for many of them who don't know the story of Nigeria". - period can go inside quotes because of semicolon before
  • Done
  • Done
  • Done
  • Much of the content under "Themes" feels like it would be better under "Reception", since they're all reviews; also, many of these quotes could easily be paraphrased, and would be better that way

More soon MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:08, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • I've paraphrased some of the quotes. Regarding your suggestion, I struggled with this in rewriting the article; which parts do you think should be in the "Reception" section?
    • Voorts, I should've clarified, sorry- the quotes can be cut entirely and just replaced with statements about the movie's themes. For example, Filmmaker Onyeka Nwelue described the film as "sharpen[ing] the veracity of a society torn apart by its tribalism".[18] Wilfred Okiche of YNaija linked the film's political and psychological themes, noting that the film was both a character study of psychological abuse and a "a metaphor for the big lumbering mess that Nigeria has become, tracing the origin of the pathology to the white man’s selfish logic of forcing a diverse group of people into a union that has proved mostly unproductive" can easily be distilled into "Critics noted that the psychological themes in the movie connected to political division of the time." Don't use that exact phrasing, since "psychological themes" is vague in my rewriting and in the prose as it stands- make sure to clarify that too MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 21:43, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • Done (mostly). I like this quote too much to cut it: "sharpen[ing] the veracity of a society torn apart by its tribalism". I also kept a couple of other quotes because I don't think there's a good way to paraphrase the language and fully capture the meaning. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:55, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In September, Golden Effects unveiled a set of character posters - what's golden effects?
  • Changed to "the filmmakers".
  • Critical reception: I think some of this can use a good pruning; cut repetitive quotes a paraphrase the rest
  • Done.
@MyCatIsAChonk: I've addressed your suggestions and have a question RE your suggestion on the "Themes" section. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:30, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Responded above. One more thing- in the "Accolades" table, add a column with the header Ref. and put the reference there MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 21:45, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done voorts (talk/contributions) 21:58, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Support - much better, very nice work! Also, if you get some time, I'd appreciate any comments at this FAC- thanks! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:27, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks! voorts (talk/contributions) 21:33, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

CommentsSupport from Tim O'Doherty

Claiming a ticket. Review coming tomorrow at the latest. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:38, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Read the full thing last night, and skimmed it again today to catch anything I'd missed yesterday. I'd suggest running a few of the shorter paragraphs in "Production" and "Release" together, as well as removed "2014 in film" from "See also"; already subcategorised a bit in List of Nigerian films of 2014, but I'm not going to withdraw support over trivial matters like that. Support based on prose: I haven't done a source or comprehensiveness review, but I trust voorts's judgement here. This is a short article, and I've not caught any major flaws. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:54, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Addressed your concerns. Thanks for the support! voorts (talk/contributions) 21:30, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from TechnoSquirrel69

Glad to see this article's made it to FAC! I'll be back for another review sometime later today. TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 14:28, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Alright, here come the comments!

  • The most important concern: a quick Google search brings up a few scholarly sources that have not been referenced in the article. There's this paper on the thematic motifs, this chapter analyzing the film through the lens of human rights, and this paper going over the film's use of sets and costumes. There might be more. Being unfamiliar with this topic, I'm unsure if these sources will add anything new to the article, but they should at least be scanned to make sure the article meets criterion 1c (comprehensiveness).
  • Reviewing now.
  • "...who was eventually hired to write the screenplay, originally titled Dust." I'd recommend moving the part about "Dust" into a new sentence, as the current phrasing is a bit confusing. Also, I'd put the WIP title in quotes.
  • Done
  • "...and had a particular 1960s 'look' " might be better quoted as " 'a look that is particular to that period' " or " 'a look that is particular to [the 1960s]' ".
  • Done
  • Perhaps change "Afolayan cast Sagoe" to "Afolayan cast Deola Sagoe" since it's the first time they're being mentioned outside the cast list. Similarly with other cast members mentioned later in the prose.
  • Done
  • "...consolidating several tribal groups in one nation. In The Nation..." might be better as "...consolidating several tribal groups in one country. In The Nation...".
  • Done
  • " is your country now'"." should use {{'"}}.
  • Done
  • "In March, Golden Effects said..." same issue brought up by MyCatIsAChonk earlier.
  • Done
  • Citation 4 repeats in consecutive sentences in § Release.
    • I'm not seeing it. Where?
    It's a small fix, so I just went ahead and did it. TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 05:00, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Have to cut it short at the moment for an IRL obligation; I'll most likely come back for some more tomorrow. Let me know what you think so far, Voorts. TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 01:17, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@TechnoSquirrel69: I've addressed most of your comments. For scholarly sources, I looked through Google Scholar, JSTOR, Project Muse, and ProQuest. There wasn't much in the way of sustained discussion of the film, and for what there was, some of the journals seemed kind of sketchy and some of the articles were poorly written or inadequately sourced. I avoided citing to those journals/articles because I'm not sure how reliable they are. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:16, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's understandable; I also excluded some papers from the list I gave you because they looked highly unreliable. These ones look okay, but I have no idea whether the journals they've been published in are reputable or not. I'll trust your judgment on that end — I mostly made the point to start a process to make sure the article is fairly representing the information available in reliable sources. Let me know if you find anything useful with the links I've sent or in other places. TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 04:21, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I added the first two articles you cited to the "Themes" section, as well as one other article. I also added an academic review to the "Critical reception" section. The third article on mise-en-place that you cited had no citations and didn't seem paritcularly scholarly; I also am not sure about the quality of that journal. The rest of the sources I found seemed a little sketchy: [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], and [10], [11] (published in Comic Sans; enough said).
Unrelated, but I added a couple of sentences on how the film was pirated to the "Release" section. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:02, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've also conducted searches of Taylor & Francis, SpringerLink, Sage, and Oxford Academic; nothing new turned up. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:12, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks very much for doing that! I just saw your edits and the added content looks pretty good on first glance. Like I said earlier, I'll trust your judgment on the reliability of the sources; they'll get another look during the source review anyways. More comments on their way tomorrow! (Also, they published in Comic Sans? Really?! XD) TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 05:53, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Note: You should change the {{xt}} and {{!xt}} templates to {{green}} and {{red}} per the guidelines at FAC. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:52, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for the note — good to know for my first FAC review. I suppose that means I can't use {{font}} in my comment on Comic Sans either, what a tragedy! Ah well, changing them over now. TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 05:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Another round of comments:

  • The brackets inside brackets in multiple places in § Release look really awkward and probably go against MOS:BRACKET. I'd recommend you lose the {{To USD}} templates and just format the text manually.
  • Done
  • In a similar vein, some currency figures have dollars followed by naira in brackets, but others are the reverse. The article should stick to one for consistency.
  • It's like that because the sources for the film's budget state the amount in USD, whereas the revenue sources state the revenue in Naira.
  • It's pretty standard for review aggregator scores to be mentioned in reception sections for films. I see in § External links that the film has a page on Rotten Tomatoes — I'd add that to the prose, along with other relevant aggregate scores, if they exist.
    • The RT link only has audience score, which would be unworthy of inclusion. GeraldWL 05:27, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      @Gerald Waldo Luis: Gotcha, thanks for checking that! Voorts, feel free to disregard this point. TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 06:19, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Disregarded.
  • I'd recommend a pass for formatting in the references. Among other things, the references have inconsistent italicization and use of quotation marks for the film's title. I'd change them all to italicized without quotes across the board. I just did a pass of the prose and corrected any MOS:CURLY and MOS:DASH issues I could find, but keep an eye out for any more in case they slipped by me.
  • Fixed the italics issues. Good catch. I think the caps are consistent, as are the publication titles. I don't see any other issues.
  • Optionally, I'd love to see a copyedit of § Reception so it's more in line with the suggestions laid out in the Wikipedia:Copyediting reception sections essay. I'll admit that the reviews seem to be suspicious in a similar way to the scholarly sources we were discussing earlier, but even so, I feel that boiling down an entire review to a single sentence or quote is not representative of the source's arguments.
  • Done. RE sourcing, the reviews in § Reception are all legit.

And I think that's it from me! Thanks for your timely work implementing my suggestions so far, and good luck with the rest of this FAC! TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 04:07, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@TechnoSquirrel69: Done. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:56, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Really nice work, Voorts; this one's a well-earned support from me! TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 15:29, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks! voorts (talk/contributions) 15:38, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hey there! This overall seems pretty solid, but I have plenty of comments. Hopefully they are useful! I've put invisible comments to divide my comments based on sections. GeraldWL 09:57, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Gerald Waldo Luis: Replied to everything. I have a couple of questions below. voorts (talk/contributions) 16:13, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Voorts, I did last tweaks to the table to adhere to accessibility guidelines. Overall I think with all that there is to the subject matter, it should make a good FA. I did however, find this scholarly source, which should fit in the themes section. Lemme know what you think-- after that it should be an easy support. GeraldWL 05:00, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Gerald Waldo Luis: I saw that source and didn't cite it because I'm not sure how reliable that journal is. The article reads like an undergrad paper, IMO. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:14, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Gerald Waldo Luis: I also just dug into it a bit more, and it actually plagiarizes the "Critical reception" section of this article from before I started working on it: see this diff. I knew parts of the article looked familiar. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:17, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Also, the first sentence of the article plagiarizes the opening sentence of the Wikipedia article on Film. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:20, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I see. Then this is an easy support. Good work! GeraldWL 03:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you! voorts (talk/contributions) 04:22, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Resolved comments from GeraldWL 05:00, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
* The alt text is kind of overly lengthy, but they should be as brief as possible, enough so that blind readers can understand the gist of it. I'd remove the first sentence as it repeats the caption. I'd change it to "The main character in the foreground of the left side, with minor characters in smaller proportion to his side, and an old church under dark skies at the right."
  • Done
  • Similar to the second image, I'd remove the "Morris" mention, but instead describe the car's shape, like round, boxed, etc.
  • Done
  • I recommend using Ghostarchive for ref 14 since IA won't save the video
  • Done
  • YouTube should be in publisher, to not be italicized
  • Changed cites with youtube to Cite AV media and made it "via" YouTube with the channel name as publisher since they're press outlets.
  • Remove the url in ref 21, 22, since it's already served in the DOI parameter
  • I didn't include URLs for those. Something is either broken with the cite journal template or there's been an update where DOI automatically files the URL. Here's the current source for one of those cites: {{Cite journal |last=Ezepue |first=Ezinne Michaelia |last2=Nwafor |first2=Chidera G. |date=July-September 2023 |title=October 1: Metaphorizing Nigeria’s Collective Trauma of Colonization |journal=[[SAGE Open]] |doi=10.1177/21582440231197271 |doi-access=free}}
  • Ah I see! Yeah, it's probably Cite journal doing its job. GeraldWL 05:39, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Ref 41 is easily replacable by ref 62
  • Good catch.
  • For ref 49 you can remove the doi since it redirects to MUSE itself
  • Done
  • Ref 61-63, change website to publisher
  • Done
  • The official website is now used by some Wordpress guy, should probably change to an archive
  • Done
  • I really think you can expand on the release sentence: when and where it premiered, and the box office bomb
  • Done
  • Done
  • Generally I would avoid meta language like "Following an opening sequence", "the film begins", or "the film shifts", in favor of a more natural story, unless doing so would not do the article service. I'll try detail it in the points below.
  • Done
  • "Following an opening sequence depicting a young woman being raped by an unknown man"-- the sentence after this describes a rape investigation, which would be enough for readers to understand that the film concerns such cases, so this can be dropped.
  • Done
  • "In a flashback, Waziri narrates the story of his investigation in a voiceover."-- Another meta language. I think that combining "Upon his arrival in Akote" with the paragraph would make it more natural and direct: this guy is tasked to investigate, so he goes to the village.
  • Done
  • The third paragraph can also be combined since they concern the same day
  • Done
  • "After leaving a celebration of the investigation's closure, Waziri hears whistling and is assaulted by the killer; however, he is too drunk to identify him. Afonja sees Waziri lying on the road and takes him home. During his recovery, Waziri remembers the face of the killer." --> "After leaving a celebration of the investigation's closure, Waziri hears whistling and is assaulted by the killer. Although he is too drunk to identify him, he would slowly remember the face as he recovers."
  • Done
  • Remove the cast paranthesis. Also why is it Reverend in the Cast and not Father?
  • Should have been Reverend in the plot summary.
  • "who reveals that Father Dowling"-- the "Father" here can prob be dropped
  • Done
  • "The film then shifts back to Waziri presenting his account of the investigation to a group of British officers. They instruct Waziri to withhold the Aderopo's identity; he reluctantly agrees to do so for the sake of a peaceful independence." --> "Waziri later presents his account of the investigation to a group of British officers, who instruct Waziri to withhold the Aderopo's identity; he reluctantly agrees to do so for the sake of a peaceful independence." Can also merge with above paragraph.
  • Done
  • "the screenplay. The screenplay that he produced was originally titled Dust" -- repetition of "the screenplay" --> "the screenplay, originally titled Dust"
  • Done
  • "he wanted to produce a "national film with a universal appeal". In an interview, Afolayan said he wanted the film to appeal to younger and older audiences" --> "he wanted to produce a "national film with a universal appeal", with a focus on younger and older audiences"
  • Edited
  • I think it would be relevant to have a naira conversion of the budget, fixed in the time of production (2013)
  • Done
  • "particular to the 1960s, which is the film's time setting."
  • Changed to something else
  • "as Funmilayo Ransome-Kuti"-- should probably detail a bit about this person, shortdesc-style.
  • Done
  • "October 1 featured a soundtrack"-- or score?
  • Done
  • Should prob cite ref 9 in the caption since it isn't explcitly stated in prose
  • Done
  • "Nigeria's unification and independence" linked here but not in lead
  • Done
  • "Critics noted that October 1 ... Critics generally noted that October 1" repetition --> "Critics noted that October 1 ... Many observed that the film"
  • Done
  • Done
  • "those criticisms and the Boko Haram insurgency's criticism" --> "those and the Boko Haram insurgency's criticisms"
  • Done
  • Don't think NewswireNGR should be italicized-- it's a newsroom
  • Done. Also changed to Agency instead of Website parameter in cite.
  • "the film's "rhetoric of return", positing that the film relies on the "motif of return"" --> "the film's "rhetoric of return", positing that the film relies on it"-- motif is the same as rhetoric
  • Changed
  • "Afolayan described the "take-away" of the"-- take-away can be easily paraphrased to moral or message
  • Done
  • Why the "[,]"? I think it's still correct without it, no?
  • Removed
  • "2014; the film" --> "2014, where the film"
  • Done
  • Done
  • "New York University in New York City"-- isn't it obvious that it's in NYC? I think "the United States" would be a better replacement for NYC
  • Removed in NYC. I don't think adding in the US is needed.
  • "The film premiered in the United Kingdom on 3 November 2014 at the 2014 Film Africa Festival in London" -- misleading "premiere", 2014 repetition --> "The film's European premiere was in London on 3 November 2014 at the Film Africa Festival"
  • Done
  • Done
  • Unlink Nollywood in last paragraph
  • Done
  • DStv dup link
  • Where?
  • "Africa Magic channel"
  • Done
  • I think these two sections can be merged into "Reception"
  • Done
  • "status as a "Neo-Nollywood" director" --> "status as a director of the New Nigerian Cinema"
  • Done
  • "cinematography, costume, production design and acting"-- why in quotes? This is a relatively generic sentence
  • Removed quotes
  • "October 1 was nominated for the most awards at the 2014 Africa International Film Festival"-- I... don't think so, 3 versus 12 with the Africa Magic Viewers.
  • Removed
  • See MOS:DTT on accessibility for tables.
  • Added a caption; any other accessibility issues?
  • I'll take a look at that and a last skim thru the article tomorrow :) GeraldWL 05:41, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Electron backscatter diffraction

Nominator(s): FuzzyMagma (talk) 10:10, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about a scanning electron microscopy (SEM) technique used to study the crystallographic structure of materials.EBSD is a versatile and powerful technique that can provide valuable insights into the microstructure and properties of a wide range of materials. Hence, it is widely used in materials science and engineering, geology, and biological research. It is a key tool for developing new materials and understanding their behaviour under different conditions. FuzzyMagma (talk) 10:10, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

First-time nomination

  • Hi FuzzyMagma, and welcome to FAC. Just noting that as a first time nominator at FAC, this article will need to pass a source to text integrity spot check and a review for over-close paraphrasing to be considered for promotion. Good luck with the nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:19, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Very impressive. Some minor points to prove I read it (fixed one minor one myself):

  • "Typically they can not be easily used in modern SEMs with multiple designated uses" Comma after "typically"; "can not" -> "cannot"
  • MOS:STATEABBR: "In references and bibliographies, 2-letter United States Postal Service state abbreviations should not be used"
  • fn 29: Page number?

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:20, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for the kind words. I amended as requested, although point 2, I am not sure if you mean changing NY to New York or something more? FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:37, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I would change it to "New York". There is no pressing need to save a few bits. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:05, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I did it earlier. Was just checking if you were pointing to something more. FuzzyMagma (talk) 21:32, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

Didn't check the captions. I think that File:Overview of EBSD indexing procedure.jpg while freely licenced is a derivative work of another file here which is under a non-free licence. File:Indent Si.tif is from an arXiv - is it a reliable source for the file content? None of the images seems to have ALT text. The "Depth resolution" section may have some WP:SANDWICH issues. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:30, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • The authors are the same, Ben Britton and Angus Wilkinson, so I am not sure what rules apply here since the image is free from one source and not from the other one, under different journals but the same 1st and last authors
  • The Arxiv image is typical, you can compare it to the one from here (same link you posted previously)
  • Added ALT text, although mostly from the caption but replaced symbols and equations with words where needed
  • Removed one of the images from the "Depth resolution" section
let me know what you think FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:52, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think ALT text works better when it shows what the image looks like, rather than saying what it represents. I've sent the file to the Commons deletion process; if they keep it, it will automatically stay. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:24, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


I read through the section called Pattern formation and collection.

I wasn’t able to follow the logical flow of the contents of this section, since the topic sentences for each paragraph don’t tell a story. Unfamilar terms are introduced (recall the trarget audience of WP is the general reader) without explanation.

For example, here are the topic sentences from the first subsection:

Setup geometry and pattern formation
"For electron backscattering diffraction microscopy, a flat polished crystalline specimen is usually placed inside the microscope chamber, tilted ~70° from Scanning electron microscope (SEM) original specimen positioning and 110° to the diffraction camera."

Grammatically, this sentence doesn’t make sense. And what does "original specimen positioning" mean?

"The phosphor screen is located within the specimen chamber of the SEM at an angle of approximately 90° to the pole piece."

Suddenly, the concept of a phosphor screen is introduced without any connection to the topic sentence of the previous paragraph.

"The systematically arranged Kikuchi bands, which have a range of intensity along their width, intersect around the centre of the regions of interest (ROI), describing the probed volume crystallography."

Ditto, re Kikuchi bands.

"If the system geometry is well described, it is possible to relate the bands present in the diffraction pattern to the underlying crystal and orientation of the material within the electron interaction volume."

This one introduces “system geometry”. Where does that come from?

"While this 'geometric' description related to the kinematic solution (using the Bragg condition) is very powerful and useful for orientation and texture analysis, it only describes the geometry of the crystalline lattice."

What is the kinematic solution? What is the Bragg condition? What is "orientation and texture analysis"?

The rest of the section appears to suffer from the same problems. Sandbh (talk) 07:39, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • "For electron backscattering diffraction microscopy, a: fixed by separating to two sentences and replace "original" by "flat"
  • "The phosphor screen is located ..: fixed by introducing the concept first and change the wording to "EBSD detector"
  • "The systematically arranged Kikuchi bands..", Ditto, re Kikuchi bands.: this described in the sentence above it as it reads "The backscattered electrons form Kikuchi lines – having different intensities – on an electron-sensitive flat film/screen (commonly phosphor), gathered to form a Kikuchi band." no change
  • {{tq|"If the system geometry is well described,": changed "system" to "setup"
  • What is the kinematic solution? What is the Bragg condition? What is "orientation and texture analysis"?:
    • "What is the kinematic solution?": the whole sentence is moved to the "Pattern indexing" section. Wikilinked the word kinematic solution vs. the word dynamic later in the paragraph
    • "Bragg condition" is described and wikilinked earlier at "In this configuration, as these backscattered electrons leave the sample, they interact with the crystal's periodic atomic lattice planes and diffract according to Bragg's law at a range of scattering angles (θhkl)."
    • "orientation and texture analysis": that was descried in the sentence above it at "it is possible to relate the bands present in the diffraction pattern to the underlying crystal and crystallographic orientation". The word texture is wikilinked too
Commed and copyedited until the section of "strain measurement". FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:57, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I intend to give the next part of this article a look, likely towards the end of this week or over the weekend. Sandbh (talk) 08:21, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from RoySmith

  • I agree with Jo-Jo Eumerus about the alt texts. I've taken a shot a writing one that I think is more descriptive. I hope I have accurately represented how this is supposed to work; I'm particularly unsure if "disk of diffraction cones in which the specimen is embedded" is correct, so please double-check that. Also T346835 :-(
    • PS, I confess I chose this image because it was the easiest to write a coherent alt text for. Most of the others will be more difficult to describe in this fashion.
      • thanks for doing that, now I know how to do it and will fix other figures in due course
  • Setup geometry and pattern formation
    • I (mostly) get why tilting the sample gives you more scattered electrons, but when I see "70 degrees", I want to know what's so special about that angle. Why did they pick 70 and not, for example, 45? It would be good to explain this.
      • The next sentence explains the logic of tilting, and there is a reference with detailed explanation and simulation of this at page 17 (the book is available for free). Also in the external links there is a link for software to simulate patterns while using different configuration. But the configuration that I used is vert typical and if you randomly open any of the paper that I have cited or any to be honest, they will use similar configuration as it reduce uncertainties when comparing results between different maps.
    • Likewise, why 20kV? I'm guessing it's some compromise between better resolution and blasting the sample to smithereens, but worth explaining.
      • see above. I will add that the text states that "The spatial resolution varies with angular width, interaction volume, etc".
    • The screen is coupled to a compact lens... It might be worth saying "compact optical lens" to differentiate it from what I assume are magnetic lenses which focus the electron beam. Or maybe handle that by saying "visible-light image" instead of just "image" later in the sentence?
    • removed the word "compact" as it indicate fibrous structure that is not there for CMOS cameras. I am not really not sure if the image is "visible-light image" or not. if you are confident, then please change it. As far as my experience with X-ray detectors, visible light has a different photon energy. The phosphor screen here is excited by the backscattered electrons.
  • image caption: I assume gnomically projected refers to Gnomonic projection. If so, link it.
    • yes wikilinked
  • EBSD detectors
    • Commercially available EBSD systems typically come with I would imagine this is rapidly developing technology, so {{as of}} would help here.
      • done
    • Link "binned" to Data binning? Oh, I see you link to pixel binning further down; maybe link to that instead, the first place it's used.
      • fixed
    • This enables very rapid and rich... Perhaps my personal hang-up, but delete "very"
      • done
  • Sample preparation
    • or 2 hours (50 rpm speed and 5N force) and using 7.5 keV dual beam energy for 15 min, with a gun angle of 8° good for a method paper, but perhaps an excessive level of detail for this kind of article? I'm assuming the ion beam polishing is done with a Ion milling machine; if so, link to that.
  • Depth resolution
    • Besides, even for a given definition drop "besides"
      • removed
    • Most reports on depth values do not mention a definition or present any rationale for the definition of depth resolution I'm not sure I get the point of this section. Who said "most reports"? Is there some survey paper which has evaluated the poor quality of the literature in not giving this data, or are you extrapolating (i.e. WP:OR) from the two reports you cite that "most" omit this data? In any case, how does it enhance the reader's understanding of Electron backscatter diffraction to know that the literature is deficient in reporting these things?
      • paraphrased, changed to "A recent comparison between reports on EBSD depth resolution, Koko et al indicated that ...". The Depth resolution is critical to know what exactly are mapping, as you are not mapping the immediate surface.
  • Pattern indexing
    • File:Overview of EBSD indexing procedure.jpg is up for deletion, but even if it wasn't, the text in the image is barely readable on my large desktop monitor. I would imagine it's totally illegible on a small screen. I know image quality isn't a WP:FACR, but if you can't read the text, it's hard to see how it meets MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE. Not to mention MOS:TEXTASIMAGES.
      • I agree, removed
    • then four (four choose three) votes will be cast, I assume we're talking about Combination, so link to that. My understanding is that while this is often pronounced "n choose k", it's not usually written that way, so consider writing it as C(4,3) or some other standard way (and still link to Combination).
  • As a FA newbie, I think I've gone as far as I can with this. This is clearly a highly technical subject. Looking at WP:TECHNICAL#Audience, I would put myself in the "knowledgeable reader" class. I have a good grounding in physics and understand the basics of crystallography, but to be honest, I'm having trouble getting through the article. Maybe that's unavoidable for a topic like this.
    • Thanks for your comments. Please let me know if my reply was adequate. I am still working on the alt description only 3 lefts. FuzzyMagma (talk) 19:02, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Glad I could add some value. Us newbies need to stick together :-) RoySmith (talk) 20:51, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Philadelphia Athletics 18, Cleveland Indians 17 (1932)

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 17:54, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about... one of the most peculiar but exciting games in Major League Baseball history. You'd expect a pitcher who gave up 14 runs and 29 hits to lose the game, or at least not be the winning pitcher wouldn't you? But on the afternoon of July 10, 1932, Eddie Rommel did win that game, coming in as a relief pitcher and pitching 17 innings, and thereby lies a tale ...Wehwalt (talk) 17:54, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:55, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Eddie_Rommel,_Philadelphia_AL_(baseball)_LCCN2014716263.tif: when and where was this first published?
I've removed the copyright not renewed tag. The Bain tag does not rely on when it was published.
  • File:Connie-mack-cover.jpg: source link is dead, tagged as lacking author info.
I've replaced the source link. I looked through the April 11, 1927 issue and it doesn't say who the photographer is, nor does the Time site or an internet search, so I've changed it to "not known". The copyright is expired in any case. Thank you for the image review.--Wehwalt (talk)
Drive-by comment
  • I'll do a full review later, but one opening thought. The first sentence says "On Sunday, July 10, 1932, the Philadelphia Athletics defeated the Cleveland Indians 18–17 in eighteen innings." Nowhere in that first sentence does it say what sport they were playing. Yes, Major League Baseball is mentioned right at the end of the second sentence, but I think it really needs to be stated that this was a baseball game in the very first sentence. I wouldn't write an article on this football match and have an opening sentence that simply said "On 12 November 2022, Liverpool beat Southampton 3–1" because it doesn't give sufficient introductory context to the reader.......... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:53, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    I've moved "Major League Baseball" into the opening sentence, albeit at the end. Wehwalt (talk) 10:08, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
More comments
  • "The Cleveland Indians, despite not having won a World Series since 1920,[3] were under new ownership" - I can't see any obvious reason why their not having won the World Series for 12 years would make it unlikely for them to be under new ownership, so "despite" doesn't seem appropriate here
  • "Another reason for giving rest of the pitching staff" => "Another reason for giving the rest of the pitching staff"
  • "When play resumed, Glenn Myatt walked to put runners on first and second,[16] Bill Cissell attempted a sacrifice bunt, but popped the ball into the air towards Rommel." => "When play resumed, Glenn Myatt walked to put runners on first and second;[16] Bill Cissell then attempted a sacrifice bunt, but popped the ball into the air towards Rommel."
  • That's all I got on a first pass. There's more commas than I would personally use, but I think based on past reviews that's probably a UK/US difference..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:14, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Thanks, ChrisTheDude I've done those things. I split the sentence rather than add "then" in your final comment. Wehwalt (talk) 16:42, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Nice one - support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:07, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Therapyisgood

  • The Cleveland Indians had not won a World Series since 1920. you never actually link World Series anywhere to the term itself, just the years. At a minimum a link should be established to give readers an understanding of what this is.
Linked by splitting the 1930 World Series link.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:37, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The Cleveland Indians had not won a World Series since 1920.[3] By the late 1920s, they were under new ownership, who were determined to spend freely to acquire talent, and after a seventh-place finish in 1928, finished in the top half of the league standings the next seven years. we never actually said which league (ie AL or NL) the Indians were in.
Clarified.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:37, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Lead: Sunday baseball was still illegal in Philadelphia, article: Sunday baseball was illegal in Pennsylvania. was it illegal in the whole state or only in the city?
The whole state. The voters of Allegheny County legalized it in 1933, the same time Philadelphia County did. The idea of phrasing it this way is to focus on Philadelphia.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:53, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • There was no scoring in the second inning, which ended with the Indians leading, 3–2, but in the top of the third, Brown gave up a solo home run to slugger Jimmie Foxx, his 31st of the season, to tie the score. too many commas, perhaps break into two sentences.
OK.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:53, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Rommel walked with two outs in the top of the fourth inning, you need to wikilink walks here and not later in the paragraph.
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:53, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • disagreeing with the choice of Hudlin. can you clarify this means as a pitcher, as that's what I'm implying but it's not said outright.
  • What makes BallNine a reliable reference?
This site makes it clear they have ample subject-matter experts and an editorial structure, sufficient in my view to qualify per WP:RS.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:33, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • they would never again be so close that season, right? Or all-time?
Clarified.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:53, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

All I have. Therapyisgood (talk) 21:09, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

All done. Thank you for the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:53, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support Therapyisgood (talk) 15:28, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments Support from Usernameunique


  • The first and last paragraphs each list a variety of records; it's unclear why they're split up the way they are.
I think you've got to lead an article with your strength, and you tell the reader right off the bat why this game was exceptional in the lead paragraph, especially in the era of Google previews. You tell them immediately that this game set records. But there's no need to shoot off all your ammunition in the first paragraph, especially as you have to give baseball information. Thus, the end of the lead can hold some of the records, and of course there are more mentioned later.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:39, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • lost considerably — A bit vague, and I think the grammar is off (verb/adverb, not verb/noun)
Expanded.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:39, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • At the time of the July 10, 1932 game, it was within three weeks of opening. — Better off in the second paragraph?
Not really. We're just trying to give a thumbnail sketch of background on the two teams in the first paragraph.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:39, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Cleveland manager Roger Peckinpaugh was nearly as bad off for pitching as was Mack. — Meaning their bullpen was spent? Can you give more details, in the way that you gave details for the A's?
I've added the info that they left a half-dozen (so says source) players behind them in Washington. The July 10 Plain Dealer says that Peckinpaugh was talked into starting Sarge Connally in the second game on Saturday against his better judgment and he did pretty badly but the article doesn't connect all the dots. I think the info on the players left behind and the knowledge Cleveland had played five games in three days is enough. It's the A's shortage of pitchers that's a major theme of this article anyway, no source says (or discusses) that Cleveland was out of pitchers.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:34, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

First through sixth innings

  • Mack relieved Krausse and sent Rommel to the mound for the second inning — Seems like a pretty odd decision. Is there any word on his thinking?
I think a lot of baseball historians would like to know his reasoning. He takes only two pitchers to Cleveland and then promptly locks Rommel in the game? Regrettably, there's nothing beyond speculation. The "He Won?" source has someone who speculates Krausse might have been injured but I find that dubious because he pitched in the second game the next day. Mack's biographer doesn't say, he didn't put a reason in his Sunday column on the 17th and he doesn't seem to have given any interviews about it, hardly surprising given their likely rush to get out of Cleveland, but there's nothing in any newspaper or the Cleveland papers I have access to from another database.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:55, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Seventh through ninth innings

  • Foxx hit a two-run home run — Note that it was his second of the game?
Fair enough.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:38, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Mack called time — What does this mean? A mound visit, or some arcane rule?
You have to call time to replace a player. That's been the rule since King Kelly tried to declare himself in the game as a ball flew towards him in foul territory.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:48, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • He had planned what to do in that situation for years — How do we know this/what's the statement attributed to? Was it his error, or the second baseman's? What about the infield fly rule?
The infield fly rule does not apply to attempted bunts. That Rommel had planned what to do appears with minor variations in multiple sources. It was his throwing error, and that appears in the Retrosheet box score.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:48, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Did Rommel state in interviews that he had planned it? If so, maybe worth adding. When an article talks about what someone thought/intended/planned, a logical question becomes "how do we know that?" --Usernameunique (talk) 03:41, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • the fans cheered Peckinpaugh for several minutes — What does the source say?
"But when the Indians came back, as if to vindicate Peck, and scored six times themselves, the fans tendered Roger several minutes of applause, as second-guessers sometimes will."--Wehwalt (talk) 14:32, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Extra innings

Nine innings, in a 25-4 win over the Browns.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:32, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • he hit his third home run of the game — How many on the season? Any word on the number of pitches/the count, or is that lost to history?
Counts and pitches are lost to history unless mentioned by the press. I'll mention it was his 33rd.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:32, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • took an unexpected bounce over Vosmik's head — What does this mean? What does the source say?
" Eric McNair then hit a ball into left field that took a crazy bounce over Vosmik’s head. This allowed Foxx to score the go-ahead run. McNair was thrown out trying to stretch the hit into a triple."
  • The game had lasted four hours and five minutes. Had neither team scored, the game would have continued until nightfall put an end to it. — What time was it when it ended? How close to nightfall?
The article says this was a three pm game and says the game lasted 4:05. The reader can compute the time the game ended. None of the sources gives the time of sunset in Cleveland on July 10, 1932. I could find it, but there's an extent to which that would be unwarranted OR since the condition of the lighting (and, to some extent, the breaks in the innings) would dictate when the game was called.
  • he probably threw more than that — Why?
Per source. If he threw three per batter, he threw 261 pitches "and likely threw more".

Records set

  • No other player has had more than seven hits in a game — Who else has hit seven? Worth a footnote?
  • A total of five players, per here. Since all of these take a back seat to Burnette, I don't see the point of a footnote.
  • he won all of them — Footnote with some details, e.g., the scores and number of innings of those games?
The source doesn't mention it and I don't think the mention is with the digging. It's just a "wow" statistic, worth the inclusion but not worth listing all of them.
  • the MLB record of 1813 innings — Specify what the category of record is—presumably total number of innings pitched in a game.
Clarified.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:38, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • won't be seen once in a blue moon — Is this a correct quotation? I get what it means, but as written, it's close to a double negative (unless he's trying to say its rarer than once in a blue moon).
It's what it says.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • probably the only one that Burnett will ever make — The only what? Record?
Yes, that's what it means. Technically there are two records, one for hits and one for singles but it's worth quoting.


  • the games on Tuesday and Wednesday — I would mention somewhere that these were also against the A's?
It is mentioned in the "Background" section, but I restored the language and clarified it was against the Athletics..
  • On September 2, 1932, Krausse started — Was that his next appearance?
No, as I mentioned he pitched the next day. He only pitched one inning on July 10, it's not terribly necessary to track his appearances. This is more in line of this is what happened to the major figures in this drama.
  • he said neither pitcher was ever the same — Neither pitcher in which game? This one, or the 26-inning one? Also, Brooklyn Dodgers 1, Boston Braves 1 (26 innings) says that "There were stories told that the lengthy pitching appearance ruined the arms of Oeschger and Cadore; this was not the case as both pitched several more years in the major league and Oeschger won twenty games in 1921."
As the article on the 26 inning game says , there was a myth that Cadore and Oeschger shut their arms out, and this is an example of that. It's good as a lead-in to the fact that Rommel in fact never pitched effectively again
It might be worth noting that the claim as applied to the 26-inning game is a myth. As you say, there's a worthy point to be made in noting Robinson's comment, but it currently reads as unrebutted fact. --Usernameunique (talk) 03:49, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • his arm was finished — For good? Or as in "boy, that was a long day; I'm spent"?
I think the text makes it pretty clear it was for good. That's what he said in retrospect, anyway.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:10, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • Nicely done, Wehwalt. A few nits above, but nothing major. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:03, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Many thanks. I think I've answered or respond to all.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:10, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Added two comments above, but am adding my support. Very nice article. --Usernameunique (talk) 03:50, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Raffles Place MRT station

Nominator(s): ZKang123 (talk) 06:59, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

After City Hall MRT station got promoted to FA, I shall also take this chance to nominate its brother station Raffles Place. All aboard! ZKang123 (talk) 06:59, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Congrats on CH's FA! Am reserving a spot here, will get through tomorrow. GeraldWL 10:38, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

And incoming comments! I've put invisible comments to divide my comments based on sections. GeraldWL 09:48, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Resolved comments from GeraldWL 08:39, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
* "the centre of Singapore's financial district"-- Central Area, Singapore?
    • Central Area quite encompasses the entirety of the Central Business District (including Orchard, Tanglin, Boon Keng...) So no, it isn't accurate to link to the general area.
  • Probably good courtesy to link OCBC
    • Done.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Cross-platform transfers between the NSL and EWL"-- I know I didn't catch this in the CH article, but I think you could mention how it shares the same cross-platform feature with CH?
    • Done.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Link Aw Hee Tong
    • Done.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Why isn't there alt on the lead img?
    • ...I overlooked that while adding alt to the other images. Done.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "would be called Raffles Place"-- "would be called as such" for less repetition
    • Done.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "and the Central Area"-- since you elaborated on the lead that it's SG's financial district, it's probably better if you also include it here.
    • As said, I'm not too sure to elaborate as such given it's not stated in source.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In footnote a, perhaps link Marina Bay?
    • Done.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I didn't see any mention in the newspaper that it's "In September 2000"? I only saw the years 1999 and 2005.
    • I removed this. A side effect from copying from another article...--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "During the diversion of utilities at the site, the contractors used the utilities departments' records to determine the location of utilities"-- repetition of utilities --> "During the diversion of utilities at the site, the contractors used the utilities departments' records to determine their location"
    • Done.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Construction of the station began on 28 May 1984. The station was built right in the city centre." --> "Construction of the station specifically began on 28 May 1984, right in the city centre." I feel like with the repetition of "May 1984", "specifially" is warranted.
    • I just said 28 May and drop the year.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "supplemented by using a "down-the-hole" (DTH) percussion machine." Well I don't know about you, but I just thought of percussion instrument.
    • Some engineering terms can be weird.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • Found this, could use this perhaps? GeraldWL 04:17, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
        • Fixed.--ZKang123 (talk) 07:58, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "they were brittle and easily broken." I thought brittle itself means easily broken?
    • Kept "easily broken".--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Suggest enlarging the image using upright-- also link Aw Hee
    • Done.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "contract included the construction of the adjacent Tanjong Pagar station." If it was still called Maxwell that time (which was why you put TanjPag in brackets), it should probably be called Maxwell too in this part.
    • I see. I thought I must use the present name to avoid confusion.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "from Empress Place" --> "from the Empress Place Building"
  • "Building site of Empress Place" --> "Building site of the Empress Place". Not sure why I didn't catch these two too from the CH FAC.
    • Done for both above.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The multi-imgs here could also use abit more size
    • Done.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Now that I think of it, it would be beneficial if you mention the line of specific platforms. Something like "Platforms A and B (upper platform level) of the station serve the EWL and NSL, respectively."
    • There isn't an official source for this, I'm afraid. Which is why I withheld doing this.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • Isn't it visible on the image though? If you zoom in you could clearly see the signs saying "EW" and "NS". GeraldWL 04:17, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
        • Oh so like in the caption
          • Yepp! :)
            • That has been done.--ZKang123 (talk) 08:24, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Link through service
    • Done.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Per my cmt on the lead, could probably link OCBC and Prudential
    • Done.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Link Mercantile Bank of India, London and China, could also expand the words to not confuse it with the other "Mercantile" bank.
    • Done.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support -- good work once again, and goodluck for Chonk's comments and other comments henceforth! GeraldWL 08:39, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Will review, but don't want to reiterate GWL's points- let me know when you've addressed theirs and I'll continue with mine MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:06, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • City Hall station is linked twice in the lead
  • While the boulders were hard, they were easily broken. - IMO, not necessary to include
    • Ok removed.--ZKang123 (talk) 11:54, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Ground treatment of the soil began on 28 May 1984 and completed by April the following year - "was" completed the following year...
  • These murals on vitreous enamel panels depicts scenes of Singapore's history - might be reading this wrong, but I don't think depicts should be plural
  • The "Information portfolio" source in the Bibliography has no sfns pointing to it
    • It's actually for another piece of info I forgot to include, or accidentally deleted. Just added in.--ZKang123 (talk)

ZKang123, that's it, nice job! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:40, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support - lovely work! Also, if you get time, I'd appreciate any comments at this FAC. Thanks! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 19:49, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


I'll have a review written within the next few days. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:56, 24 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Irere (Alexander McQueen collection)

Nominator(s): ♠PMC(talk) 07:13, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

For Spring/Summer 2003, Alexander McQueen surprised the fashion world with a mature, romantic collection bursting with soft lace and tropical colors. Irere channeled film, Shakespeare, and Amazonian influences into a three-phase show of pirates, conquistadors, and tropical plumage, set against a film backdrop that reflected the show's narrative. It was a smash hit best remembered for the oyster dress, one of the most recognizable garments of the 21st century, and the skull scarf, which became a brand signature. ♠PMC(talk) 07:13, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hi! Just want to note that I added nine archives to the references, feel free to adjust or remove if any of them don't work or aren't supposed to have archives! See invisible cmts to see my cmts divided by sections. GeraldWL 09:04, 9 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Resolved comments from GeraldWL 05:26, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Found some duplicate links:
  • Paragraph 2, Concept: "pirates, menacing conquistadors"
  • Paragraph 3, Concept: "Elizabethan fashion elements"
  • Paragraph 1, Significant: "design by John Galliano", "sewn to a bias-cut"
  • Paragraph 2, Reception: "Hoyer of Sydney's Sunday Telegraph"
  • Paragraph 1, Other media: "appeared in Vogue"
  • Paragraph 1, Ownership: ""by Philip Treacy, jewellery by Shaun Leane"
  • Paragraph 2, Recurring: then-assistant Sarah Burton"
    • Handled, I think; I did leave Galliano's second link in there since it's directly relevant to the section and far enough away from the background that I think it's not worth making the reader scroll back up.

Found some duplicate refs:

  • Paragraph 3, Concept: ref 6
  • Paragraph 2, Show: there's [30][8], then [30][8][35]
  • Paragraph 2, Significant: refs 51, 62
  • Paragraph 1, Reception: there's [65][66], then [65]
  • Paragraph 3, Reception: ref 43
  • Paragraph 3, Ownership: ref 78
    • Yeah, these are generally deliberate. Some reviewers get shirty/confused by sentences without refs, even when they're supported by the ref that follows the next sentence. Also, I often reorganize things during the editing process and it's easier for me if each sentence has its refs rather me having to worry about which ref in the next 3 sentences goes with the one I just moved.

Now onto prose.

  • "eponymous fashion house"-- shouldn't eponymous be part of the link too? Ditto with Concept section
  • Done
  • "Its title is claimed to be an Indigenous Amazonian"-- in Concept section you added a link, but not here
  • Done
  • "the size of a basketball court"-- not sure what it's called, but I'm not sure using objects to compare size is effective. Standards of basketball court sizes vary by associations. If no sources mention the specific size perhaps say that it's "said to be the size of..."? Also perhaps this is overlink as well. Ditto for the Staging subsection.
  • It's the comparison given in the source, without defining a specific size (I don't think anyone got out to measure) so I'd prefer to stick with it as-is.
  • I'd say it's much better if it's "said to be", since the comparison with a basketball court itself is ambiguous. Just like how it's not ideal to say, "my arm is the size of two water bottles." GeraldWL 07:49, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Sure, fair, changed
  • Done
  • "McQueen retrospective Alexander McQueen: Savage Beauty"-- McQueen repetition here, maybe remove the first McQueen.
  • Yep, done
  • "his work featured a degree of craftsmanship that verged on haute couture"-- maybe add "the high-end" before "haute" just so it doesn't need clicking on the link to understand what haute couture is.
  • That would be redundant. Couture is definitionally the highest end of fashion.
  • Ah I didn't notice that!
  • Link runway shows since you also linked this in lead
    • Already linked in the first sentence
  • Link Givenchy
    • Oop, casualty of revisions, fixed
  • "a Spanish Jesuit tries to protect a Paraguayan indigenous tribe"-- more specifically, Guaraní people
    • Yes but a) iirc that's not in the sources I'm using and b) I don't think the detail is necessary to understand the concept (and I'd have to go and give the context of the Guarani being a Paraguayan indigenous tribe anyway)
  • "Amerindian" is a legit word meaning "American Indian" so I'm not sure you need to quote that. Maybe change to the synonymous Native American if you feel that's needed to warrant removing quotes.
    • Mm, I've left as-as and removed the quotes
  • "although Judith Watt claims"-- found a source for ya :)
  • Yeah but that says the word is Portuguese; her claim is that it's Amerindian, which isn't supported by that
  • Fair enough, though I think the Portuguese thing is also worthy of inclusion, perhaps in a footnote. GeraldWL 07:49, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I'm not sure it's super relevant, I don't really want to get into the weeds of whether it's a loan word to or from Portuguese or what
  • Maybe link politically correct
    • Done
  • "Author Judith Watt interpreted"-- we already knew who Watt is four paragraphs ago.
    • Yep
  • "it retailed for $15,000"-- should it be US$? For all we know so far these are British-made designs, so the $ is kinda ambiguous. But if you insist, this shouldn't be a problem too, I know people would just default their thinking to US.
    • It's USD, the source is WWD; I've clarified
  • Should heels and butterflies be linked? I think it's over.
    • Lost heels but kept butterflies
  • "A short film by John Maybury"-- is there a duration mentioned that'd be a better descriptor than short?
    • No. I'd link short film but it'd be nearly a sea of blue
      • Not sure that's called a sea of blue, if it has an unlinked word between ("by"). GeraldWL 07:49, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
        • I did say nearly :P
  • "as the "shipwreck dress" swims to a tropical shore after a shipwreck"-- why not link at the first mention of shipwreck?
    • Because it looks silly to link it in the name of the dress when I can just link it half a dozen words later
  • ""acting as co-director and art director""-- same case with the Amerindian thing. Co-director and art director is an official attribution in film credits. Maybe can change acting as to "assuming the roles of"
    • I don't actually have access to the credits to see what McQueen was officially credited as, so I'm going to leave that as a quote
      • I found this source, which states in the Irere column, "McQueen, as well as being a fashion designer, art-directed many photoshoots, he art-directed many films, and this film formed the backdrop to the collection Irere..." So I think it is safe to say it is an official credit; it also isn't an ambiguous credit like "camera guy" (could mean DoP or cameraman), which would make sense to quote. GeraldWL 07:49, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
        • I'm not sure we can make that assumption here
  • Adding em or endash to the quotebox author part would make reading it much clearer
    • I don't see that it makes much difference
  • Per its own article, the "A" in "Ancient Greece" shouldn't be caps
    • Tweaked
  • Link NYT
    • Done
  • "the death of Isadora Duncan"-- maybe add "dancer" before "Isadora"
    • Done
  • "WWD said"-- you should provide an abbreviation parantheses in the first mention of WWD. Also later you wrote "The staff writer at Women's Wear Daily"-- whether the abbr or full is used must be consistent
    • Yep, casualty of reordering things
  • Link Technicolor
  • "confirm[ed] the gothic Cockney kid's unique point of view"-- should probably clarify what "gothic Cockney kid" means by either paraphrasing or links
    • Revised a bit
  • "of The New York Times"-- rm this link per my NYT cmt above
    • Swapped
  • Museum overlink
    • I think it's fine
  • "She described two examples in Irere. Shark teeth, used in Irere"-- change the second Irere to avoid repetition
    • Done
  • Since Other media para. 2 is just one statement in two sentences, maybe it'd be better if it's merged in the first para.
    • Yes, done
  • "The Metropolitan Museum of Art (The Met)"-- decaps second "the"
    • Done
  • Perhaps use the full title and link Savage Beauty in fn A since it hasn't been referred to in the body, thus far.
    • Is it not... right there? "in both stagings of the retrospective exhibition Alexander McQueen: Savage Beauty"?
      • I was referring to footnote A, which is located two sentences away from "in both stagings".
        • Ah sorry, fixed
  • "of the retrospective exhibition"-- add 2011 before "retrospective"
    • No, because it was staged twice, 2011 and 2015, and I've referred to both
      • I see-- I only looked at the preview and thought it was a 2011 show, sorry!
  • "purchased from Los Angeles"-- LA's link but not NYC in paragraph 1?
    • Linked NYC
  • "to an Oscars"-- using the official name sounds better
    • Done
  • "Cultural history" and "wedding dress" overlink
    • I think both are pertinent
  • First exlink has archive but not second and third?
    • First is a deadlink that requires an archive, the other two are videos and afair IA doesn't archive YouTube/Vimeo clips
      • I normally use Ghostarchive for YT and Vimeos below 15 mins, and Conifer for longer ones. I did it here and here, though you might wanna check the Vimeo one since I'm using a computer without VPN. GeraldWL 07:49, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
        • Works for me
  • I don't think exlink needs accessdate
    • Removed

Gerald Waldo Luis sorry for the delay, and thank you for the review! All responded to/fixed, let me know your thoughts. ♠PMC(talk) 23:23, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No worries! I made a couple of replies which I signed so you can find it easier-- also just wanna note I didn't see the Technicolor cmt replied. GeraldWL 07:49, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Gerald Waldo Luis, sorry again for the delay in responding, I have not had the brain juice all week. I've responded to the last few and made the Technicolor tweak I missed the first time. Thanks much for doing the video links :) ♠PMC(talk) 14:42, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No worries about the delay; there is no delay after all :) I did a last read through the article and it seems all good for me now, so I'm supporting! A nice work about a nice work. GeraldWL 05:26, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks kindly for your review, cheers! ♠PMC(talk) 08:04, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Marking a header. I expect not to have too much to say, though -- at a glance it's in strong shape. Vaticidalprophet 07:39, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Extended content
  • Although he worked in ready-to-wear – clothing produced for retail sale – Does this need to be offset by dashes? It's a definition, yes, but the definition can be given in a non-offset sentence while sounding a little less jarring.
    • I tried it in commas and in brackets and it feels awkward both ways. How would you suggest doing it?
  • For the images in "Concept and creative process", can we fit in an image of a jerkin (maybe swapping something else out?). It's not a familiar article of clothing to most readers.
    • Hmm. Swapped the bird out for a jerkin.
  • If I've ever seen the case for {{non-free no reduce}}, it's on "images of extremely detailed articles of clothing that turn into inscrutable blobs at 'resolution some guys thought sounded good when most people had 640x480 displays'". (This is true across a lot of the McQueen suite, but it really stands out here because the oyster dress is the lead image and the focus of a huge chunk of the article, and I cannot see any of the things the sources talk about.)
    • I dunno, I can see the ruffles fine, and that's really the part that matters. I know we disagree about NFCC to some extent, but I kind of think not being able to zoom right in and see the full detail here is the incentive for users to go to the original article I borrowed the image from and give them clicks
  • Judith Watt argued that McQueen's use of colours for Irere was distinct from what others were doing because it was part of a narrative that explored concepts that were significant to him personally -- unsold on the prose/structure of this sentence.
    • Honestly... yeah. It's kind of an annoying argument that she's making, almost a "not like other girls" thing. Like McQueen is somehow the only one using colors for Artistic reasons. It's hard to phrase in a non-pretentious way, but see what you think.
  • I'm sure you know...wrt "only two copies of the oyster dress are believed to exist", should 'believed as' be understood as meaning this is at all hedged or disputed? I recall the DYK ran with a more certain statement. "Known to exist" might be better if we don't want to give the impression anyone thinks there are more.
    • I am absolutely hedging here, and - ah. Part of it is to do with the article split. The oyster dress article mentions McQueen talking about 20 orders coming in for oyster dresses, but the Harper's ref says only two were ever produced, so I hedged the wording. It's not clear in any source what happened to those orders, although there are several possibilities. McQueen could have been inventing orders; the orders were real but got cancelled; multiple dresses were completed but then destroyed in accidents leaving only two (ie Harper's is mistaking "2 dresses still exist" for "2 dresses were ever made"); or there could be some number of privately-owned oyster dresses that Harper's just doesn't know about. It's hard to say.
      There's also the question of whether the McQueen Archive retains one. Per footnote a, "The catalogue produced for the original 2011 staging of Alexander McQueen: Savage Beauty says that all garments were lent by the Alexander McQueen archive unless otherwise noted. The oyster dress is not so noted, although The Met has owned their copy since 2003." Other garments owned by the Met that appeared in SB were noted as such in the catalogue. In my mind, this indicates some ambiguity as to whether this is a simple error or an indication that the Archive has another oyster dress which they lent to the Met for SB for some reason.
      I've messaged McQueen_vault asking about whether the Archive owns an oyster dress, hopefully he knows and isn't too sick of me to answer. ♠PMC(talk) 16:09, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Left on read; speculation is the best I'm going to get. ♠PMC(talk) 22:41, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Keep in mind DUPLINK lets you link by section these days (so Gerald's comments might have been wrong, but I don't know exactly what he checked). This mostly stood out to me with regards to the possibility of duplinking the oyster dress in the last section.
    • Good point, added. ♠PMC(talk) 16:09, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That should be all, I think? Not much to say here. Vaticidalprophet 12:01, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

At long last, a response. Thanks for the patience while I got my shit together :) ♠PMC(talk) 16:09, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Looking back over, I'm willing to support here. My thoughts on "clothing produced for retail sale" is that it doesn't necessarily need to be offset at all -- it's a definition, but sort of an "explanatory" definition rather than one that needs to be excluded from the flow of text, if you get what I mean. But I don't see holdups here. Vaticidalprophet 01:56, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The usual nice piece of work. Just a few niggly bits here

  • Is there a reason "Indigenous" is capitalised? (ditto on the other uses throughout the article)
    • Yes, generally the same line of thinking as capitalizing Black when it refers to Black people. MOS:RACECAPS and WP:NCET get into the logic of it a bit more.
  • "It was inspired by imagery from the Age of Discovery: explorers, pirates, conquistadors, as well as imagery drawn from the Amazon rainforest: the culture and garb of the Indigenous peoples of the Amazon, and the colourful plumage of tropical birds like the macaws.": this is a bit of a monster, and I'm not convinced by the use of two colons in there – it could probably be reworked into two sentences.
    • I forgot how much I hate this sentence. Given your comment below about duplication, I've reworked those two paragraphs entirely.
  • The word 'irere': per MOS:WORDSASWORDS, I think I'm right in saying irere should be italicised
    • Normally yes, but it also says that where confusion may result, quotation marks can be used instead. Given the title of the collection is the word on its own and italicized already, I opted for quotation marks to differentiate. (I've swapped them for double quotes now instead of single though, as that was the result of something that's now been altered)
  • The first sentence of the second para ("The collection comprised three distinct concepts presented as a narrative sequence: shipwrecked pirates, menacing conquistadors, and tropical birds") is almost a copy of the second sentence of the first para.
  • See above
  • "One look reportedly used "26 colors and took almost five months to perfect";": is there any need for this to be in a quote? It seems to be an uncontroversial statement of fact that could be paraphrased
    • I'm always a little bit wary of taking McQueen at his word, because he was a bit of a bullshitter, but I suppose this isn't too over-the-top
  • "for a backdrop.[34][35][42][43]" There's a bit of WP:CITEKILL going on there – any chance of combining a couple of the refs to reduce the impact?
    • Wound up pitching Gleason, I think she was an artifact from a previous revision of the sentence. Is 3 okay?
  • Any reason why "56 looks" but "twenty outfits" and "eighteen outfits"
    • Nope, fixed
  • "who famously died": strike "famously"
    • Done

Done to the start of Reception – more to follow. – SchroCat (talk) 15:57, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Done and/or responded to. Thanks for your comments Schro! Always appreciate seeing you at my FACs :) ♠PMC(talk) 23:40, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "brightly-coloured" shouldn't be hyphenated, according to MOS:HYPHEN
  • Lisa Skogh: who?
  • "In 2020, Kardashian wore": you can just use "she" here
  • As the skull-print scarf became a "brand signature", it may be worth thinking about including an image? I won't press the point and it's not going to affect my final decision

That's my lot – another very interesting piece. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 07:46, 25 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Liz Truss

Nominator(s): Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:00, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about Liz Truss, the shortest-serving prime minister of the United Kingdom so far, beginning her premiership exactly one year ago today. The article went through an immensely helpful peer review which closed yesterday, after I'd rewritten it from scratch in August. This is my first FAC, so apologies if anything has been done wrong; that's on me. BLP writing is tricky, and I think I've struck a decent balance between brevity and comprehensibility, but I look forward to all your comments pointing out the contrary. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:00, 6 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@WP:FAC coordinators: - Am I clear to add this to the image and source review requests page? Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 13:08, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I've added it there for you - SchroCat (talk) 13:44, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Cheers. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 13:52, 22 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments Support from Tim riley

When the nominator mentioned this overhaul, the much respected Johnbod expressed reservations about putting the article up so soon after the event. I take the point, but here we are and I think I must comment. I commented at PR and will have one last look before returning here in the next few days. Tim riley talk 21:38, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

After a last perusal – and it certainly will be a last perusal, as I have no wish to be reminded of this person ever again – I am happy to support the elevation of the article. I could do with fewer mugshots of Truss, but that's just my view. If the article is promoted it will need more vigilance than most in the months and years ahead, I think, to make sure it continues to reflect current developments and sources, but for now I am satisfied that it meets the FA criteria. – Tim riley talk 16:28, 9 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks Tim, for comments both here and at PR. As new sources are created and Truss's life progresses, I'll make sure that the article adequately reflects both. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:31, 9 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments Support from Hawkeye7

I know very little about British politics, so bear with me...

  • "In 1996, she joined the Conservative Party." This isn't in the body, so is unsourced.
Last line of "Early life and education".
  • "in the aftermath of the 2017 general election, was demoted to chief secretary to the Treasury." Subject missing. Consider splitting long sentence in two.
Done with a semicolon, let me know if this is still an issue.
  • " Johnson, who had resigned in an earlier government crisis" In the crisis, or because of it? Just checking...
Because of it. Amended.
  • " Her government then announced large-scale borrowing and tax cuts, which were widely criticised and largely reversed after financial instability; facing mounting criticism and loss of confidence in her leadership, Truss announced her resignation as leader of the Conservative Party." Consider splitting long sentence in two at the semicolon.
  • "Sunak was elected unopposed as her successor, and succeeded her as prime minister." Drop the comma.
Early life and education
  • Truss was known by her middle name Elizabeth Why the italics?
It's the done thing, is it not? WP:WORDSASWORDS, I think, is the relevant authority on this. Not exactly sure if this applies to names though.
  • "the family moved to Paisley, Renfrewshire when Truss was four years old," Parenthetical comma after Renfrewshire
  • "Truss praised the Canadian curriculum and the attitude that it was "really good to be top of the class", which she contrasted to her education at Roundhay." Can we be a bit more explicit about this? Roundhay did not value excellence? And was Truss near the top of her class?
I think Truss was slagging off Roundhay (aka lying to prove a point), and I think that, like all schools, it would have valued excellence. I'm on the fence about this one, but if you insist I could add something, although I don't know what it could be.
  • "During her time as a Lib Dem, Truss supported the legalisation of cannabis and the abolition of the monarchy,[27][28] and campaigned against the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994." You haven't defined the abbreviation Lib Dem, although it is fairly obvious; suggest not using it. And did Truss change her opinions on these matters?
Fixed re Lib Dem. Not sure about Truss's opinion on either in later life: if I were to speculate, I'd say that she would support the legalisation of cannabis because of her small-state credentials, but I've no idea. With the monarchy, who knows.
Professional career
  • "From 1996 to 2000, Truss worked for Shell plc," She worked for Royal Dutch Shell plc; it changed its name in 2022. Do we really need the "plc"? And do we know what kind of work she did for them?
    Shell fixed. Source doesn't say what she did; quoting the source, it says: "Truss took her accountancy qualifications and moved into the spare room of a fellow Shell graduate". I guess that she was an accountant, but hard to be sure.
  • "She co-authored The Value of Mathematics,[35] Fit for Purpose,[36] A New Level,[35] Back To Black,[37][38] and other reports." Citation required.
  • " having been introduced to the branch by her friend and future MP, Jackie Doyle-Price.[39][30] During this time, Truss met her future husband Hugh O'Leary at a reception at the Greenwich Conservative Association,[30] with whom she has two children: Frances (born 2006) and Liberty (born 2008)." Do we have to use "future" twice in as many sentences? And her children were with Hugh, not the Greenwich Conservative Association, right? And do we know the sex of her children?
  • "In January 2005, Sue Catling, the parliamentary candidate for the Calder Valley constituency, was forced to resign by the local Conservative Association after an affair with the association's chairman;[49] Catling claimed that the members of the party that had opposed her were sexist, saying that she was "accused of everything except murder and paedophilia"." Did the affair have anything to do with her resignation?
    Yes. Changed "and" to "because of".
  • "Beginning in 2004, Truss embarked on an 18-month-long affair with the Conservative MP Mark Field" I take it that we are contrasting Sue with Liz here. Did Truss have any other affairs of note?
    No. The fact that Catling and Truss both had affairs is a coincidence, although the book does emphasis the ironic value of the two.
    I'm not familiar with British politics, but in Australia we had a politician called Gladys Berejiklian who had an affair with a another politician widely suspected to be a crook. She was a canny politician and realised that the media were far more interested in her sexual peccadillos than her ethical ones, so she went on shock-jock radio with salacious details. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:56, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • 'some in the association asking for a local candidate and saying that she had been "parachuted in"" Was she? Did the national organisation impose Truss on the local body?
    Not really. MPs in the UK are selected by members of the constituency (local) branch of the party from a shortlist of candidates which are drawn up, also by, I assume, the local branch (although not the members). The Taliban weren't the sharpest tools in the shed.
    In Australia it is not uncommon for parties to impose a candidate on the local branch ("parachuting in"). Our preferential voting system means that it is more important for a candidate to appeal to the electorate than the party faithful. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:05, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Truss was elected as an MP in the 2010 general election, amongst other Conservatives;" There usually are more than one elected at each election I hear. (Where's EEng?)
  • Awkward wording fixed. There may not be more that one Tory elected at the next election, the way they're handling the RAAC crisis.
  • " the FEG" Define the abbrevoiation before you use it. Yes, I know. Do it anyway. MOS:ACRO1STUSE: "Unless specified in the "Exceptions" section below, an acronym should be written out in full the first time it is used on a page"
  • "the top rate of tax to 40 pence" I think you mean 40 pence in the quid?
    Yes, that's a UK-ism that we often do: say "45p" or "20p" for tax thresholds. Fixed.
  • Link carbon tax
  • "Truss soon became well known amongst members of parliament in Norfolk for her frequent photo ops,[71] but was well-respected amongst Conservative MPs, who recognised her as dedicated and hard-working;[72] one of her staff members said that Truss's "attention to the local stuff was just superb". Since it is a staff member and not an MP, this is a non-sequitur. Start a new sentence instead of the semicolon.
    Done. More soon.
Ministerial career
  • "Truss wrote a white paper—More Great Childcare[82]—which would increase the maximum number of children childminders could look after at a time, from three to four," It think that the paper would not do this, but the policy.
  • he told Truss "this is my phone number" Colon after Truss
  • Suggest splitting "the first paragraph of Environment secretary (2014–2016) at "During her two years in the department"
  • "Truss made a speech in which she said "we import two-thirds of our cheese. That. Is. A. Dis-grace" Strange formatting here.
Hard to get across how she said it, which was the main reason she was mocked. The Times used "That. Is. A. Dis. grace" which would've looked even weirder. You can watch her say it here.
  • " "in December, I'll be in Beijing, opening up new pork markets". Um, China is the world's biggest producer of pork.
Take it up with The Truss.
  • "in Australia she made unscripted comments on their free trade negotiations with the UK, both events to the dismay of Downing Street officials." The unscripted remarks or the free trade negotiations with Australia?
The remarks. Not sure if I can express that in the sentence though, I'd thought it was clear.
  • " the NFU" Another abbreviation.
  • "Downing Street expected her resignation, but Truss later privately decided against it." How is that even possible?
In the UK, Downing Street sometimes puts people on "resignation watch" if they're known to be disloyal or against a certain policy.
  • "including Partygate, which resulted in he and the chancellor Rishi Sunak" "him"
  • "DUP" this time you have to look under the link. (Doesn't mean a thing to me tho')
Premiership (September–October 2022)
  • " and began to appoint her cabinet that day" Aren't ministers appointed by the King?
    Technically, but "recommended that the King appoint her cabinet" is a bit too literal.
    I would suggest "selected" instead of "appointed". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:57, 9 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @Hawkeye7 - done. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 19:01, 9 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "and prompted a response from the Bank of England." Any idea what that was. (My guess: put their fingers in their ears and went ting-a-ling-a-loo.)
    Yes, quite a bit actually; didn't want to be unequal by picking and choosing their measures, so I've added a link.
  • "Truss has supported Taiwan in the context of deteriorating cross-strait relations" I have no idea what this means
    Me neither. A third editor left this for you and I to figure out. Maybe the readers can crack that nut. Added a link.
  • "condemned the Chinese government's treatment of the Uyghur people as "genocide"." Hahaha. Takes the cake for lack of self-awareness.
  • "she called Saudi Arabia an ally but said she was not "condoning" the country's policies." Any idea what policies? (Allying with the UK I presume.)
    Added, after looking at the source.

If you are trying to make her sound vacuous and guileless you have succeeded. (Nice touch: the images of her first and last speeches still wearing the same outfit.) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:38, 9 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for the comments @Hawkeye7. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 10:53, 9 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Moved to support. One final note: Elgot, Jessica; O'Carroll, Lisa (10 May 2022) is not used in the article. Suggest deleting from the references. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:05, 9 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Dammit. It should be; must have missed it. Will fix. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 19:06, 9 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    One additional suggestion: "the list of her resignation honours, which are yet to be approved" Suggest the judicious use of the {{as of}} template. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:47, 10 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Didn't use the template as it requires the year, and putting "2023" twice in the same sentence would have destroyed the readability; put "as of September" instead. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 10:11, 10 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sammi Brie

More of a copyedit that should be easy to handle. The phrase "an idiot, full of sound and fury / Signifying nothing" comes to mind, but reliable sources (especially the book kind) seem to generally take a pretty dim view of the subject. Ping me when done. Sammi Brie (she/her • tc) 01:22, 10 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Truss was the parliamentary under-secretary of state for childcare and education from 2012 to 2014, before Cameron appointed her secretary of state for the environment, food and rural affairs in a cabinet reshuffle. The comma after "2014" is unneeded.
Early life
  • She applied for Merton College, but was instead listed as a candidate for the all-women's St Hilda's College User:Sammi Brie/Commas in sentences: the comma here is unneeded.
  • During her time as a Liberal Democrat, Truss supported the legalisation of cannabis and the abolition of the monarchy, and campaigned against the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994. The second comma here is unneeded. (The part after the ", and" is not a standalone sentence.
Political career
  • During this time, Truss met her future husband Hugh O'Leary at a reception at the Greenwich Conservative Association, with whom she has two daughters: Frances (born 2006) and Liberty (born 2008). Did Liz have two daughters with the Greenwich Conservative Association? Restructure this sentence so the "with" clause comes directly after "Hugh O'Leary".
  • Another book, Britannia Unchained was published in September 2012. Complete the appositive with a comma after "Unchained"
  • Truss soon became well known amongst members of parliament in Norfolk for her frequent photo ops, but was well-respected amongst Conservative MPs, who recognised her as dedicated and hard-working. The comma after "ops" is unneeded.
Ministerial career
  • In September 2012, Truss was appointed as parliamentary under-secretary of state for education, and stepped back from the leadership of the FEG, with Kwarteng taking her place. Remove comma
    Done (I'm assuming you mean the second).
  • the deputy prime minister Nick Clegg held a meeting with Truss, who told her that "some of this is fine", but the maximum childminder increase went "much too far", and advised her to revise the proposal
    • Reverse the order of Clegg and Truss before the first comma so that Truss isn't telling Truss something.
    • The last two commas need to go
    Done both.
  • Truss also announced proposals to reform A-levels by concentrating exams at the end of two-year courses, and said that the UK should attempt to "out-educate" countries in Asia. Remove comma
  • Originally, Truss was to be made a minister of state, before Cameron changed his mind on the morning of the reshuffle Before comma
  • May's decision to appoint her was criticised by the minister of state for justice Edward Faulks who resigned from the government Add a comma after Faulks
  • she ruled herself out the day after May announced her resignation, and subsequently endorsed the former foreign secretary Boris Johnson Remove comma
  • it was thought she might have been appointed chancellor or business secretary, but was instead promoted to the position of secretary of state for international trade and president of the Board of Trade add "she" after "but" to keep the comma
  • On her first trip to the US, Truss met with her American counterpart Robert Lighthizer, where she gave a speech comma after counterpart, and is Lighthizer a place? ;)
  • Instead, she had focussed on joining the CPTPP Maybe split this long sentence after "and New Zealand"?
  • Truss became the second woman to occupy the office, and kept the post of equalities minister Remove comma
  • Reportedly a difficult meeting, Lavrov described communicating with Truss as "like talking to a deaf person". Maybe The meeting was reportedly difficult; Lavrov described communicating with Truss as "like talking to a deaf person".
    Done, I didn't like that sentence either.
  • the plan was criticised by the European Commission, but was received well by the European Research Group and the Northern Irish Democratic Unionist Party Remove comma
  • he decided against it, and instead selected Nadhim Zahawi as Sunak's replacement Remove comma
  • Johnson's premiership proved untenable however and, on 7 July, he announced try Johnson's premiership proved untenable, however, and on 7 July, he announced
  • She pledged to cut taxes if elected, and said she would "fight the election as a Conservative and govern as a Conservative", and that she would also take "immediate action to help people deal with the cost of living" Remove both commas and maybe change "and that she would also take" to just "and take"
  • 6 September 2022, and began to select her cabinet ministers no need for this comma
  • the package was to be funded by borrowing, and was intended to stimulate growth Remove comma
  • replacing him with Jeremy Hunt on 14 October, who reversed many of the remaining policies announced in the mini-budget, leading to further instability; because of Truss's perceived weakness, Hunt was described as the de facto prime minister. Did 14 October reverse many of the policies or Jeremy Hunt? Consider changing "October, who" to "October. Hunt"
  • She was succeeded by Sunak as leader of the Conservative Party on 24 October, and advised the King to appoint him as the new prime minister on 25 October Remove the comma
  • Sunak went on to further reverse many of the economic measures she had made as prime minister, but retained Hunt as chancellor. Remove comma
  • Truss, who remains in the Commons as a backbencher, submitted the list of her resignation honours in 2023, which are yet to be approved Maybe Truss, who remains in the Commons as a backbencher, submitted in 2023, the list of her resignation honours, which are yet to be approved
Political positions
  • She has also suggested that the UK should not ignore the history of the British Empire, but should embrace the country's history "warts and all" Remove comma
  • She voted for gay marriage and has never voted against LGBT rights, but has moved to limit transgender rights Remove comma
  • Truss has supported Taiwan in the context of deteriorating cross-strait relations, but, citing precedent, said that she would not visit the island as prime minister, and condemned the Chinese government's treatment of the Uyghur people as "genocide". Remove the commas after "relations" and "minister"

@Sammi Brie - Done. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 07:33, 10 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Sammi Brie - Anything else? Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:59, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I will support. The copy has been cleaned up. (Note: Claiming for WikiCup points.) Sammi Brie (she/her • tc) 20:47, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from UndercoverClassicist

Much admiration for taking on a big, visible and no doubt high-maintenance article, though I'm not sure I'll thank you for digging up the memories of its subject. I'm afraid there's quite a lot here, partly because of the nature of the article: it's important that we get this sort of thing right and are seen to do so, particularly from an NPOV... PoV. Please do not take that as any sort of judgement on the quality of the article or your work: there's most definitely a path to Support for me here and I'm happy to work with you on the points below. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:41, 10 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Tim comment (separated for readability)
Christ, this is a lot. I'll do some tonight, some tomorrow. Watch this space. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:48, 10 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@UndercoverClassicist - At long last, I think I'm done with your comments. I've not responded to each one individually, so this is a catch-all reply to acknowledge that I've seen and actioned them. Have a look to see if there's anything I've missed or anything you're not satisfied with. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:33, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@UndercoverClassicist? - Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:30, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Resolved matters
  • demoted to chief secretary to the Treasury: given how little about the various cabinet etc ranks is codified, are we absolutely sure that demoted is a matter of verifiable fact?
    It's what the news sources and Out of the Blue says, so I don't see why not.
  • After May resigned in 2019: I'd give a month; otherwise, it's awkward to have year-less references to July and September immediately afterwards.
  • And now I understand... but I still think the double-May is clearest and so best. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • she subsequently took on the additional role of minister for women and equalities in September: elegant variation, but sandwiched between two "Johnson appointed..." or similar, this reads as if she somehow did it behind Johnson's back.
    Done, albeit with a bit of a split infinitive: "was subsequently given".
  • Not that split infinitives are a problem anyway, but this isn't one: nice fix. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • large-scale borrowing and tax cuts: not quite clear if cuts to both borrowing and taxes, or additional borrowing to pay for tax cuts.
  • their first son, named Matthew, had died: any reason not to cut named?
  • was known by her middle name Elizabeth since: as she only has one, this would normally be bracketed with commas: her middle name, Elizabeth, since...
  • Per MOS:OVERLINK, we don't generally link current national capitals (Warsaw).
  • Consider specifying that Renfrewshire is in Scotland: perhaps "Paisley in the Scottish Borders"?
    Tacked on "in Scotland".
  • she later said in 2022 that at the school "I saw kids ... being let down",: awkward grammatically with the I: suggest simply starting the quote a word later: she later said in 2022 that, at the school, she "saw..."
    Yeah, why not. Done.
  • she contrasted to her education at Roundhay: contrasted to reads wrongly to me: I'd prefer contrasted with (as would Google Ngrams, but I'm not particularly sure.
  • She applied for Merton College: you apply to a college.
    D'oh! Fixed.
  • she was accepted for Merton: accepted by is, I think, best.
    Done. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 23:21, 10 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Lib Dems: not sure the abbreviated form is quite encyclopaedic. As it's only the once, I'd spell this out in full; if we're going to keep the abbreviation, we should really gloss it earlier.
  • By 1996, Truss was involved in Conservative Party politics: covers a multitude of sins: can we be any more specific?
    My elegant variation has failed to charm; rephrased.
  • as a Chartered Management Accountant (ACMA): isn't ACMA the professional body, rather than the job itself?
  • Why Cable & Wireless plc here but Cable & Wireless in the lead?
    Sloppiness. Fixed.
  • Suggest explaining that George Robertson is more than just a C&W colleague (somewhat per MOS:NOFORCELINK).
    I had thought about that, but had no idea if I should have introduced his as defence sec or Lab peer or whatever; I've gone for the latter.
    Yes, he'd had quite a career (and had fairly recently left as SecGen of NATO): as this article is about Truss rather than Robertson, I think you've done a good job. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Despite initially supporting single-sex services being restricted on the basis of biological sex, she later said in February 2022 that the government was not interested in enacting such a measure: the source seems to be talking specifically about toilets; does it expand that to enough breadth for the phrasing we have here?
  • to reduce economic dependency on China and Russia: reduce its economic dependency?
  • In response to the cost of living and energy supply crises: suggest a rephrase to be a) more comprehensible to non-British readers for whom "the cost of living crisis" may not mean much, and b) more durable in a future time when, we hope, the phrase will have faded from the collective consciousness (compare "the war", which needs a qualifier now in a way that it didn't in 1946).
  • Now response to the rising cost of living and energy supply crises: a bit awkward with the plural crises: I think there was only one energy price crisis. Suggest "the rising cost of living and increased energy prices"? UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Done.
  • households, businesses and public-sector organisations: does this actually exclude anyone? If not, would cut.
    Very good point, although I worry that the readers would ask who it affected and if it excluded anybody.
  • I'm not sure they would: we would be fine writing "to cut taxes", and not being specific implies that it affected more-or-less everyone. Certainly, in the lead, brevity is a virtue to a much greater extent than in the body: this is quite a lot of words that seem to add little to the meaning. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Done.
  • which were widely criticised and largely reversed after financial instability: similarly: were they criticised before or only after the financial instability?
    Err ... fixed, I hope.
  • It's still a bit unclear, though I think justifiable as long as both the criticism and the reversal followed the instability. If not, suggest something like "which led to financial instability and were largely reversed after widespread criticism". UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Trimmed.
  • Facing mounting criticism and loss of confidence in her leadership, Truss announced her resignation as leader of the Conservative Party: suggest giving a date in the lead, as this is a vitally important event.
  • Could do with a year, as we haven't actually given a 2022 date yet. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Done at the start of the paragraph.
  • action to tackle the UK's "falling competitiveness": as this is a very partisan description, I think we need "what she/Reform/the lunatic fringe called the UK's 'falling competitiveness'" or similar.
    Source isn't of any help here, it just says "urgent action to deal with Britain's falling competitiveness". Whether this is Cole and Heale talking, I don't know. Sorry about that (thanks for "lunatic fringe" by the way, that gave me a laugh. I'm in two minds about putting it in the article itself).
  • Could rephrase or could attribute: this seems like one of those cases where we have a source that doesn't have to follow WP:NPOV: sadly, that doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to do so, but does mean that we have to be a little cautious in using that source's material. Otherwise, has another (less supportive) source looked at her time at Reform? UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Pffffffft... I really don't know. Added "what Reform perceived as". I know. Not great. But the best there is.
  • with whom she has two daughters: Frances (born 2006) and Liberty (born 2008).: we don't currently have a Personal Life section, but adding one would fix the chronological and subject-matter awkwardness with this: a similar issue arises with her parents' divorce, which could be similarly solved.
I really don't want to, I'm sorry. "Personal life" sections are trivia magnets. Other similar bios, like Benjamin Disraeli and Neville Chamberlain don't have one either.
That's reasonable; I don't think there's enough here or elsewhere to really upset the chronology. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Truss unsuccessfully stood for election twice in Greenwich London Borough Council for Vanbrugh ward in 1998 and Blackheath Westcombe in 2002.: colon after Greenwich: she only stood once in 1998.
  • recalled in 2022 that "she said: suggest "[Truss] said...", or simply that Truss said "....
  • 3.2 per cent swing to Conservative: to the Conservatives, although to Labour would have been fine.
  • she was selected for the constituency of South West Norfolk by members of the local Conservative Association: don't local CAs select (at least finally) all candidates? If so, suggest cutting.
You're right, but kept only because it's mentioned further down.
Reasonable enough, particularly in light of "misled". UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Why King's Lynn, Norfolk but simply Thetford? A slight rephrase to the beginning of this long sentence could clarify that all of these things were constituency matters.
Removed "Norfolk" and clarified that these things relate to her constituency.
  • On which, suggest rephrasing the title "Parliamentary career" to "First backbench period" or similar: it's currently not mutually exclusive with the subsequent "Ministerial career", but really needs to be.
Just changed to "backbencher"; I don't think there's any risk of confusion with her current era.
Agreed. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Would give a date for After the Coalition: previously is a little confusing here.
Any reason not to swap the order of the two, so that she authors the book with these people, then they join the FEG?
  • a grouping of over 30 Conservative MPs: any reason not to be more precise? More generally, I'd expect some statement of what the group was here, rather than simply how big it was.
Added "Thatcherite", which is in the source (sort of) and is even in the Free Enterprise Group's article itself.
Done both.
  • Another book, Britannia Unchained, was published in September 2: by the same authors?
Yes. Fixed.
  • well known amongst members of parliament in Norfolk for her frequent photo ops but was well-respected: the first approach to hyphenation is correct: cut it in well respected.
Done. (by the way, that wasn't me.)
  • expressing concern about an overreliance on calculators: the noun phrase is a bit clunky; who was over-relying on them, and was that a fact or Truss's opinion?
  • golden generation: explain where this epithet comes from.
  • some becoming ministers: reads as a little redundant (some became PM!).
  • Cameron becoming the prime minister: more natural without the the
  • a reference to activists living mostly in rural areas: is this quite accurate (that is, were the Mail specifically aware that urban Norfolkites had no problem with Truss?) or are we giving the Mail too much credit: perhaps more a reference to Norfolk's association with (mostly sugar beet) farming?
I don't think the Mail was trying to imply anything about the urban pop or Norfolk's farming contributions or anything like that; you might be reading a bit too much into it ;). I think they were just mocking the mostly rural county.
Yes, I agree: in which case, a reference to activists living mostly in rural areas needs to become something like "a reference to stereotypes about Norfolk being a county of farmers.". UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • after an active Conservative campaign: what exactly does this mean, and contrast with? Do we normally expect the Tories to make passive campaigns?
Source says she was "a hardworking Conservative ... Truss certainly was an active candidate ... in public there was only praise for Truss's campaigning skills". I note that the source also mentions that the Yorkshire Post described her campaign as "Blitzkreig", which I hope is good enough.
Now that we've got that second quote, I'd cut active for brevity and to put the weight of the sentence on its Schwerpunkt (sorry). UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • following an hour-and-a-half wait: I'd lean towards cutting this as well, though that's in ignorance of what wait means here: do we mean ninety minutes of debate, or of awkward silence while... something?... happened?
Again, not sure about this one. I think ripping it out bleeding would fatally wound the rest of the sentence.
I'd cut to something like On 16 November, the motion was put to the association: following a debate which included an "impassioned" speech from Truss, it was defeated by 132 votes to 37. Certainly, I'm not sure about the current framing, which is clear that we have speech -> ninety minute wait -> result: does the source exclude that the speech was part of a ninety-minute debate/discussion? UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Your phrasing looks fine to me, so I've replaced it with that, but replaced "debate" with "making their arguments".
  • in which an influx of other Conservatives became MPs: at present, a bit banal (this happens every election, whether or not the Tories actually win), but could rephrase to give a sense of the number of new Tory MPs.
OK, done.
Why "over 90"? We know the exact number (148 first-time Tory MPs, see here, p215), and it's quite a lot bigger than 90. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Was basing it on Cameron's majority, which was 96. Now fixed.
  • time, at a reception at the Greenwich Conservative Association Truss: comma after Association.
I can't see it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Nope, because I forgot. Now done.
  • which was considered "impressive".: crying out for a [by whom?].
  • Truss was pleased with the appointment: her own, or Kwarteng's?
  • In January 2013, Truss wrote a white paper—More Great Childcare—which proposed increasing the maximum number of children childminders could look after at a time, from three to four, which was intended to reduce the cost of childcare: this is a bit of a run-on sentence; I would try to compress and split it.
  • with The Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee : I'm not a fan of false titles: either the Guardian columnist... or Polly Toynbee, a columnist for The Guardian....
Missed that one. Changed.
  • attempt to "out-educate" countries in Asia: a big place; was she any more specific?
She wasn't, no. Knowing Liz, she probably thought it was just one country.
  • In July, during the 2014 cabinet reshuffle, Truss: better as In July 2014, during a cabinet reshuffle, Truss...
  • Originally, Truss was to be made a minister of state before Cameron changed his mind on the morning of the reshuffle: not quite grammatically: should be Truss was originally to be made a minister of state, but (before is workable in that situation but, grammatically at least, leaves open the reading that the original plan was for Cameron to change his mind).
This sentence really has been through the wars. Reverted back to its almost exact prior phrasing.
  • ; nevertheless, he told Truss: "this is my phone number. Ring me any time you want help": better as a paraphrase, perhaps: "he gave her his phone number and offered his support"?
  • Perhaps worth explaining about TB; at the moment, both Patterson and Owen look a bit like swivel-eyed badger haters.
  • cut taxpayer subsidies: simply subsidies? Taxpayer in this context is slightly non-neutral: it has nice fuzzy connotations of saving people money, vs. for example government subsidies or state support.
Just put "subsidies".
  • introduce plain packaging for cigarettes: introduce isn't quite the point: suggest something more like mandate.
  • As the elected leader of the Conservative Party: cut elected, as unelected leaders (like Sunak) of majority parties are appointed PM too.
  • held positions in the Great Offices of State.: simply held any of the Great Offices of State? I'm not sure what a "position in" those offices is, as distinct from the office itself.
  • Truss ordered black clothes from Greenwich in the event of her death: should clarify to the Queen's death, but in the event is almost certainly not correct (it means "at the time that X happened"). Do we mean "in anticipation of"? Not sure what the significance of Greenwich is here?
Done, fixed, clarified (divorced, beheaded, survived).
  • A witness said that "[Truss] knew it would be that day but she had to go to the Commons to pretend everything was normal".: this sentence sits a bit oddly and doesn't seem to say a whole lot: would suggest cutting.
  • The quote from Truss's speech about HMQ is both slightly long and yet very much not the whole story. Is there a particular reason to choose that quote, or to quote at all?
I know this isn't what you've said, but I've lengthened the quote and put it into a block. Should justify its existence a bit more that way, and tell the story a bit more too.
Yes, I like this one. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • a two-year cap on the price of domestic energy supplies —the Energy Price Guarantee— which was planned to cap average household energy bills at £2,500 per year: briefer as "a two-year cap of £2,500..."?}}
  • the basic rate of income tax and stamp duty: I think this is a) the basic rate of income tax and b) stamp duty, in which case I'd reverse them ("cutting stamp duty and the basic rate of...") to be clear that there's no basic rate of stamp duty.
Yep, done.
  • rises in national insurance: NI has previously been capitalised; why not here? Similarly, why LC on Income Tax, Stamp Duty and Corporation Tax, which seem to follow the same rule, whatever we decide that to be?
Capitalised. Given that National Insurance is all caps in its article, whilst income and corporation tax isn't, should probably be like that here too.
  • She has also suggested that the UK should not ignore the history of the British Empire: this is a bit loaded; it's a phrase that doesn't quite mean what it says on the tin. Suggest reworking to contextualise the "warts and all" comment alongside the ongoing debate on Rhodes, Colston etc.
    Can't find it in the cited source, but added context for the speech.
  • I'm still a bit uncomfortable with parroting her phrasing: to her "we shouldn't forget the British Empire" means "we should generally be proud of the British Empire and stop going on about all those genocides". In particular, the line "It’s time to dump the baggage holding us back" makes this rather clear. I'm not sure I have a great answer here but I do think that finding another source as to the conversation she was joining here would be helpful. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:06, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I'll admit I don't see the relevance of Truss's views on the empire. This seems more trouble than it's worth, and I've removed it.
  • This is the first time we've introduced Labour, although about their third mention.
Cut "the opposition".
  • Truss instructed Kwarteng to reverse the abolition of the 45 per cent income tax additional rate on 3 October: slightly ambiguous: did she instruct him on 3 October or instruct him (on 1 October?) to do it on the 3rd?
  • The box quote in the "Government crisis" shifts the left margin, which isn't ideal from an accessibility point of view.
  • by the leader of the opposition Keir Starmer: comma after opposition.
  • Given that this is a summary article, I think WP:NOFULLTEXT applies to Truss's statement: it makes up about a third of the section summarising our article on the entire government crisis.
I really don't know about this one. I see similar examples on Neville Chamberlain, and given that this is really the only good place to have the full text, I lean towards keeping it. We're used as a reference work, and we should probably keep the full version for completeness. NOFULLTEXT says "If out of copyright, shorter texts ... are usually included in their article". I get this article isn't Resignation speech of Liz Truss, but it is the appropriate venue. It doesn't risk the article being overlong and people can skip it if they'd like.
Very reasonable. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:28, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • advised the King to appoint him as the new prime minister on 25 October: see earlier comment on instructing Kwarteng.
  • Truss campaigned for issues including the retention of the Tornado GR4 fleet at RAF Marham in her constituency; the replacement of the old aircraft with around 150 new F-35 strike fighters: do I read this correctly that she first campaigned for the Tornados to be kept, then for them to be replaced?
I think she wanted the keep the airbase but replace the old fighters. Clarified.
Two thoughts: one, is that clear in the source, and two, if we want to keep the airbase but not the fighters, we can't say that we're keeping a Tornado airbase: need something like the retention of the RAF Marham airbase in her constituency and the replacement of its Tornado GR4 aircraft with around 150 new F-35 strike fighters. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Suggest rephrasing dualling to a more transparent and more international alternative (MOS:COMMONALITY)
I've no idea what that is; I hope the link's enough. Feel free to have a stab yourself.
Stabbed, but please feel free to unstab. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not at all. Your phrasing looks nice and slick to me. Was worried you'd shoehorn in an Americanism, which you avoided.
  • the energy cap and tax plan announcements: we haven't actually said that Truss raised taxes (she could have borrowed the money).
? "tax plan announcements" meaning the mini-budget.
Ah! I hadn't understood, as we haven't actually mentioned the mini-budget yet. Might be worth a look. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hopefully resolved by adding "the", which makes a distinction between the EPG and the mini-budget.
Looking at this with slightly fresher eyes, I think the problem is that we've talked about the tax plan announcements as if the reader should know that these existed. I assume you've taken as implied or obvious that the EPG would require some sort of tax plan in order to pay for it, but that isn't spelled out and so leads to some confusion. Otherwise, are we suggesting that Truss already had the mini-budget "in the gun" on 8 September, but chose to delay its announcement to put the focus on the EPG? If so, I'd suggest starting this whole section with a few sentences setting out that Truss's planned response to the cost of living crisis had two components: firstly, the energy price guarantee, and secondly, the mini-budget, which consisted of tax cuts funded by borrowing, and that she decided to announce the guarantee first. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:11, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • 45 per cent: I like this phrasing, but we previously used the more awkward if perhaps intuitive "forty pence in the pound" (or similar): suggest picking one?
Dunno. I enjoy consistency probably more than the next man, but I think we should be good if we've already established what "45 per cent" means. I won't object if you ask again, though.
I don't think this is really a problem, as such. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:11, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Other key appointments: who says that these ones were key (and that the others weren't)?
Not yet. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Another case of me typing here first and fixing the article second. Done now.
  • On 10 September...: commas, rather than semicolons, needed in this sentence. Could also be cut in two for the two different days.
Yep, done.
We're inconsistent, particularly here, on whether to follow a fronted date like that with a comma (we do for 10 September but not for 19 September). Suggest picking a lane: I'd use one but I know that User:Tim riley would dissent. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yeah, I saw one of Tim's edits castigating the "AmE-style comma". Picked most of them out now; retained the ones that are helpful, like "proved untenable, however, and on 7 July, he announced [...]".
Yes, where the comma'd-out bit is in the middle of a sentence ("periphrastic"), that's a different thing: most varieties of English would insist on both commas around however in that and similar contexts. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:01, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • If not including: excluding?
  • Capitalisation in source titles is a little inconsistent: most books use title case and most other sources use sentence, but Bogdanor uses title case except for the a, Diamond et al is very variable, as is Worthy and a few of the web sources.
  • It was received badly by financial markets because of its inclusion of temporary spending measures whilst tax rates were permanently cut, blamed for the pound falling to its lowest ever rate against the US dollar, (US$1.033) and prompted a response from the Bank of England: a difficult run-on sentence: in particular, the last part needs a work, as was is governing the whole thing, leaving us with the implies and was prompted a response. Suggest while rather than whilst when using in the sense of although.
Would now amend It was received badly to The mini-budget was received badly..., as we've had a long sentence and somewhat lost that grammatical subject. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:28, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yeah, done.
  • The short length of her premiership was the subject of much ridicule: it isn't clear here, but should be clarified, that the livestream started (quite a while) before her resignation.
including a livestream of a head of lettuce comparing the shelf-life of the vegetable to her remaining tenure which had been started the week prior: was it the livestream or the tenure that started a week prior? We could have a livestream, started the week before..., but I wonder whether we've buried the key detail here: that the organisers wanted to see if Truss would be able to remain in office before the lettuce went off. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:28, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
How about something like "which recorded a head of lettuce and invited viewers to speculate if Truss would remain in office long enough for it to go off?" I must admit I'm struggling to find a good non-BrE-specific way of saying "go off" ("go bad" is AmerE). UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:11, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Tweaked - try "wilted".
That's perfect. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:18, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • a claim which was heavily criticised by former Roundhay pupils: not sure about the word heavily here: is it more journalistic than encyclopaedic? What (verifiable) factual information is it conveying that wouldn't be communicated with was criticised by former Roundhay pupils?
    When you look at the sources, it become evident that it was indeed "heavy" criticism. One of her classmates even publicly called her "a lying bitch who told lies about our school". Obviously I did not want to put that in the article, but you get the picture.
    I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm questioning whether it's verifiable in our sense. Understand the desire to keep that rather vicious line out of a BLP article, but would suggest cutting the adverb. Perhaps "criticised as inaccurate" to clarify what their problem was? UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • the chancellor of the Exchequer Philip Hammond for £104 million: commas around Philip Hammond. Are we sure on the reluctantly which follows?
Done. Source says "Hammond folded" and that he "never knowingly opened his purse".
Happy with that. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:13, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In November 2016, Truss was again criticised: why again? She hasn't been criticised, in this article at least, for a while; again (!) my inclination would be to cut the editorialising and let the facts speak for themselves.
Done, although I reject that it is editorialising; she was criticised just four sentences ago.
  • was later remarked to have "[torn] the place up", turning it into an "economic department", working "in a very dispassionate, calm way": this doesn't strike me as a particularly neutral assessment: whose is it? More broadly, what is an economic department in this context?
An aide said it; clarified.
I'm still not clear on what exactly an "economic" department is. Appreciate that someone said it, but I'm not sure we can echo it unless we can make it comprehensible. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Link and spell out EU on first body mention (an EU ban on...).
  • "we import two-thirds of our cheese. That. Is. A. Dis-grace" : this is punctuated as for speech, which transfers awkwardly into encyclopaedic prose. Two thirds should almost certainly be unhyphenated, but I'd suggest rephrasing to something like "labelled it a 'disgrace' that Britain imported two thirds of its cheese".
Done the first, but the quote is arguably too famous to bastardise.
It's a famous quote, but I'm really not comfortable using non-standard orthography to effectively mimic someone's style of speaking. It's analogous to echoing an accent in speech ("a spokesman for the Turnip Taleban said 'oi'm not very 'appy with 'er!'"), which is somewhere between unclear and offensive. MOS:CONFORM would have us turn this into standard orthography without comment: we've already added the useful context that her delivery was felt to be enthusiastic, and could add something to the effect that it was also seen as stilted. At minimum, we need the grammatically standard That is a disgrace. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done: still think it should be punctuated, which is how respectable publications like Britannica and The Times do it.
  • thousand–year: an endash; should be a hyphen.
  • the minister of state for justice Edward Faulks: fine if there's more than one; if not, comma after justice.
  • have the clout to be able to stand up to the prime minister when necessary, on behalf of the judges: a minefield for punctuation: is the comma placed there in a printed source?
  • Other Conservative members of Parliament also criticised Truss's appointment owing to her lack of legal experience: cut the also, given that Faulks didn't (here) mention her lack of legal experience.
  • Truss's supporters accused one of the MPs, Bob Neill, of "thinly veiled misogyny": do we know who actually gave that quote?
No, it was "a source close to Truss".
Which often means Truss herself, at least eventually, but you've said what we can from the source. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:52, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • 18-month-long affair: simply 18-month?
  • Catling claimed that the members of the party that had opposed her were sexist, saying that she was "accused of everything except murder and paedophilia: it's a great quote, but is it really WP:DUEWEIGHT in this place? I can see that Truss's selection somewhat undercuts it (are we suggesting that they chose a woman purely to rebut this accusation?). Separately, I think we need an and before "saying", as the quoted material doesn't explicitly talk about sexism.
Done the last bit; as this is probably the only time Catling will ever get to be immortalised on the 'pedia, I'm reluctant to banish her to "article history". If you insist though, I'll axe her.
Hm: do we have enough in the source for had, out of sexism, "accused [her] of everything except murder and paedophilia"? I can see the argument that the similarities/contrasts between Catling and Truss are important to this bit of the story, and it's useful to foreshadow how vicious constituency Tory parties could be to women accused of affairs, as Truss is about to be on the sharp end of that. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Would like to, but frustratingly neither sources quite make the connexion.
  • Suggest very briefly explaining what it meant to trigger Article 50.
  • Truss was enraged and called the demotion "incredibly unfair" and was "seething for a good couple of days": I've made this point a few times, but whose quote is the second one?
  • using it "like her own personal think tank" : you can probably guess this one...
  • the defence secretary Gavin Williamson: comma before Gavin.
  • which included blackmailing Truss: I'm very uncomfortable about the word blackmailing in this (BLP) context, particularly given that blackmail is a crime and this would not be described by that crime.
Fixed, understand the BLP concern.
  • using it "like her own personal think tank" : you can probably guess this one...
  • The speech, which also mocked Michael Gove: Truss's speech or Williamson's?
Truss's, fixed.
  • Comma off Sajid Javid and Jeremy Hunt.
  • Truss had sought opinion amongst colleagues on whether she could plausibly stand: "plausibly" isn't quite the right word here: that implies that she was asking them if there was a reasonable probability of it happening, where she was asking them if it was a good idea. Suggest "credibly"?
  • Before May's resignation announcement...: a very long sentence. Suggest a cut after courted media attention.
  • maths classes: a mix of EngVar: maths lessons in BrE, but strongly suggest mathematics in encyclopaedic writing.
Would still strongly advise lessons instead of classes in a British English article: are you particularly attached to the current phrasing? UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Nope, now done.
  • her father, a professor of pure mathematics at the University of Leeds, calling her such: I'm not sure that calling her such is quite right. Presumably, he called her "Elizabeth", but we've just said that everyone did, so that shouldn't be a surprise. On the other, we could be saying that he called her "Elizabeth" (in the sense of giving her the name), but as it was already her (middle) name, we'd expect that of her parents. It sounds to me like we're saying that her father started calling her "Elizabeth" rather than "Mary", and then everyone else followed suit, but I think a small rephrase is in order to really get that across.
  • Same problem, I'm afraid (if we're saying that she was known as "Elizabeth", we're saying that most people used that name on a regular basis). Perhaps "her father , a professor..., called her by her middle name "Elizabeth", which became her preferred name in early childhood"? UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Alright, think it's fixed now. Used "Liz" rather than "Truss" to avoid confusion with John Truss. Also semicoloned the following sentence with that one, as they are related.
I know it's her common name, but "Liz" reads as informal: I think she would be equally unambiguous and perhaps strike a better tone. Not a major issue. UndercoverClassicist T·C 05:52, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Truss instead elected to go to Oxford in a "bout of teenage rebellion": this quote really needs attribution: I presume it's Truss? "what she later called..."?
    Her biographers, actually. Her bio isn't mentioned above, so might be confusing for readers, but it's up to you.
    I think that one definitely needs attribution: presumably, her biographers didn't ask her at the time, so either this is retrospect in an interview or, more likely, they're guessing. One assumes she had other reasons to apply to Oxford: it would have been much more rebellious to join the circus. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Attributed. Using surnames seems to be the standard way of attribution in articles, even if the authors are never mentioned themselves.
Normally, we do that on second mention: it's customary to introduce them first ("her biographers, Cole and Heale"). Some writers would use their full names on first mention, but that's a matter of style. UndercoverClassicist T·C 05:54, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • a net gain of just one seat: just is slightly editorialising: would cut. Given Hague's resignation, presumably this was viewed as a disappointment: can we say and cite as much?
Done the first; book doesn't say, really, and can't turn up many sources via Google.
See here p. 230: a nice quote "the 2001 election was disappointing for Conservatives almost everywhere, and particularly so in Wales." Less explicitly here p63 and 64, but a useful comment that Hague made a major hash of things and that Tories agreed as much. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
We should always be able to tell in the text who gave a certain quotation: it isn't clear, at least to me, who called the result "disappointing". This is a phrasing issue more than a substantive one: just needs a slight rework to clarify. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:59, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Removed, adding more to that sentence would make it way too long. I know "Bennie" wouldn't do, and "Following the election, which saw the Conservatives make a net gain of one seat and the resignation of the party leader William Hague after the result which, as the political scientist Lynn G Bennie explains, was "disappointing" for the Conservatives, Truss supported the former defence secretary Michael Portillo's unsuccessful leadership campaign" obviously isn't good either.
Happy with that: the other option is to split into something like The Conservatives made a net gain of one seat, which was considered a disappointment:(cite Bennie) their leader, William Hague, resigned. Truss supported the unsuccessful campaign of the former defence secretary Michael Portillo to succeed him. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:53, 16 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Considered a disappointment by whom, UC? Jokes aside, now fixed.
  • Suggest briefly explaining what the A-List is (most readers will assume that it only means the general, metaphorical sense of being an "A-lister") per NOFORCELINK.
The list had practical/institutional significance as well as simply being a list of names, but I can understand the appeal of brevity here. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Does this still need to be fixed? Ask only as it's not in the "Resolved matters" box.
If you're aware of the trade-off being made and happy that the article currently strikes the correct balance, I'm happy to consider this one resolved. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:59, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The press was widely hostile to the plan, including The Daily Telegraph and The Times; the former claimed that prices would not fall: better as The press, including ..., was widely.... Is it worth clarifying for non-UK readers that those papers, particularly the Telegraph, would generally be expected to support Conservative policies?
Done both.
Now a false title: suggest Conservative-leaning papers like... UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Truss ignored Clegg and pushed ahead with the plan, angering Clegg and causing him to block the proposals: this reads as if Clegg blocked the plan out of spite at being ignored, whereas he made it fairly clear that he was never going to allow them through.
I think we still have the same implication. Do we really need "angering Clegg"? Was our source really in a position to know whether Clegg (who is a generally mild-mannered chap) was angry, peeved, frustrated, or indeed emotional at all? UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think he was: the source has "enrage[d]" and "apoplectic". The Beeb says "Mr Clegg's spokesman said he 'remains to be persuaded' that changing the ratios, as originally envisaged by Tory education minister Liz Truss, was a good idea"; bit weaselly, but still implies that Clegg was not happy.
Those are indeed strong terms: seems reasonable to gesture towards them. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:52, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • recent horse meat scandal: recent is ambiguous (recent then or recent now?): suggest "2013 horse meat scandal".
Changed to "then-recent".
Not a major problem as such, but why not simply use the date? Then-recent is both more verbose and less precise. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Explain briefly what Flood Re is.
I'm afraid I still had to look up what a "levy and pool system" is (and whether it was somewhere to go in your chevvy to drink whiskey and wine). Isn't it fundamentally a scheme to provide flood insurance to high-risk homes? That would seem like the lead that we've somewhat buried here. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sorry to keep picking at this one, but insurance doesn't protect anything; it insures it so that its destruction is made good to its owner. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:59, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • successive deep cuts under the coalition government, affecting prisons and blamed for their rising rates of violence owing to a drop in the number of prison officers: deep cuts is a bit of a MOS:IDIOM and perhaps editorialising (as a little way above, what is the verifiable information distinguishing cuts from deep cuts?). This sentence could do with a rephrase for clarity: something like "cuts under the coalition government, which had been blamed for a drop in the number of prison officers and for rising rates of violence in prisons".
Source says the cuts were deep too.
Right, but the source doesn't have to follow MOS:IDIOM and we do; they're also not bound by WP:VERIFY, and we are. An encyclopaedia is inevitably going to have to make some content and stylistic decisions differently from the publications that we reference when writing it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:52, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done, reluctantly. I still think we need to reflect the fact that Osborne's cuts were extensive: see this, this and this.
Extensive is better than deep from an idiom (and cliché-avoidance) perspective. I'd note that the Guardian makes no secret of being an anti-Tory paper and that the Law Gazette is published by the Law Society, which had a lot of skin in the game in relation to the cuts to the MoJ: I'm not averse to finding a source to say that these cuts were or are considered extensive, but neither of those would really pass the bar of neutrality required to do so. We'd really want something a bit more academic and dispassionate than a newspaper. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:13, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The Guardian, simply giving facts and figures as they do in that article with remarkably restrained partisan spin: "Having sliced around £800m a year – about 10% overall – off the annual MoJ budget during the last parliament [...]": is not really at risk of being deemed a non-neutral source. I wouldn't cite anything stronger than that to any known to be left-leaning paper. If The Guardian said "Liz Truss is the worst prime minister since Eden", I wouldn't put in the article "Truss is regarded to be the worst prime minister since 1957", which would obviously be non-neutral.
  • nevertheless, he and Truss were reported to have a good relationship: is he Hammond or Kwarteng?
  • only seven per cent recognising her in March 2019: can we be clear on whether this is e.g. recognising her name, or being able to recognise a photograph, or saying hello to her in Thetford?
Source only says "only 7 per cent or one in every fourteen people would recognise her on the street".
  • Truss gave a speech criticising regulations that got in the way of people's lives: not NPOV phrasing: the characterisation as regulations that [get] in the way of people's lives is ideological (and Truss's). Phrases like "what she called" are our friends here.
Perhaps more encyclopaedic as something like "criticising the amount of regulation in British [whatever it was - industry, life, poultry farming]"? UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:59, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Noting that this has been done rather differently, but now superseded by another comment. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • blocked your pay: grammatically, fits better as "blocked [their] pay".
Fixed some of the others, but maintain that "your" gives more of the threatening effect Williamson was hoping for.
It might, but it isn't grammatical: we've integrated the quotation into the sentence, so it needs to integrate into the sentence syntactically as well. Perhaps threatening to write "Liz Truss blocked your pay" to everyone in the British Armed Forces? Essentially, we need to turn it into a quotation that stands alone grammatically. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:59, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • an "incendiary" speech: the usual. It sounds from what follows that this means "offensive" rather than "energising", but that's not clear at this point.
Clarified, but you're right: it was a bit of both, and by the looks of things really annoyed Downing Street. If you've ever seen The Thick of It, Truss got a very Malcolm Tucker-like response.
  • their free trade negotiations: I would hyphenate free-trade (it's the trade that was free, not the negotiations).
  • Truss continued her documentation of trips through her social media: is this notable? It would be surprising if a cabinet minister didn't post their official trips on Twitter.
The bio and Britannica point it out: "as trade secretary, Truss met with international business and political leaders, traveling widely and exhaustively documenting those trips on Instagram", and until she became PM, it was probably what Truss was best known for.
  • Truss's pursuit of a trade deal with the US concerned the National Farmers' Union (NFU), which worried about an influx of lower-quality food products if passed; the NFU, along with The Mail on Sunday, campaigned against such a deal that spring: can we phrase this more neutrally and verifiably (did our source ask all the farmers how they had felt?) via what the NFU leadership said in public and when?
  • The COVID-19 lockdowns eliminated international travel, with Truss attending virtual meetings; as a result, she became closer to her family: the with clause doesn't quite read as grammatical. Needs a bit of a rework: I'd also question whether she became closer to her family is really encyclopaedic or verifiable (who said?). Another part of me wonders whether we'd include the same in an article about a male politician.
Tweaked. Not sure what you're implying with regards to the "male politician" bit; I can add it to O'Leary's article too, if you like.
  • The link on "early 2021" breaks the principle of least astonishment for me: if we're saying that Biden's election is the important factor here, we should say so in the text.
  • The Australia deal, finalised in December was described: comma after December. Who described it?
Done both.
  • she had started to ingratiate herself with the parliamentary party in the event of a leadership election: not the right phrasing: she had done it whether or not an election happened. In anticipation of?
  • an National Insurance increase: a National Insurance increase. Capitalisation on NI is inconsistent in this article.
Resolved a few days ago.
  • but Truss later privately decided against it: I'd cut privately; by not resigning, she decided publicly too.
  • Any reason not to put a full stop after "Fall of Kabul"?
Sure, why not.
  • negotiating the release of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe at the UN General Assembly: perhaps worth a slight rephrase to clarify that she wasn't released at the UN General Assembly.
  • Truss became preoccupied with: another of these very psychoanalytical phrases, and perhaps an implicit criticism.
  • the first minister to do so: the first British minister?
Nice catch.
  • Before and during the immediate aftermath of the invasion: not quite grammatical: suggest before the invasion and during its immediate aftermath.
  • she stated that they would end: the sanctions, not the leaders, so sanctions would end is slightly better.
  • and on 7 July, he announced: either comma after and or delete the comma after July.
  • She pledged to cut taxes if elected: could cut if elected.
  • Suggest cutting the first "and" (currently after if elected).
  • she appreciated that winning over the membership required not detailed policy proposals but the creation of a mood": I'd replace she with [Truss] for clarity.
Done, why not.
  • She voted for gay marriage and has never voted against LGBT rights but has moved to limit transgender rights: does LGBT include the T in this sentence? If so, is that statement simply a reflection that she's never had the chance to vote against transgender rights?
  • On this page, I can't see that she's ever been called upon to vote on transgender rights, or indeed much on LGBT issues: the only relevant vote is that she voted in favour of equal marriage in NI. I think "has never voted against LGBT rights" is therefore a bit weaselly and too strong to hang on that single vote: would replace with a straightforward statement of what she voted for. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:06, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I don't think I can cite They Work for You, though. It is a primary source after all. Simply put "she has voted for gay marriage but ...".
    Did she actually vote for gay marriage per se, or only to extend it to Northern Ireland? UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Source says voted for gay marriage. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:35, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    As does Auntie (albeit with awful formatting). I think "voted to legalise same-sex marriage" would be a touch more formal and encyclopaedic, perhaps with a link to the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013? If desired, you could add that she also voted to legalise same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland in 2019, perhaps linking to Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:17, 13 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Now that she's presumably not going to be PM again, can we strengthen said that she would not visit... to refused to visit... or similar? Current phrasing leaves open the possibility that she went back on her word. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:28, 12 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I'm always a little circumspect about Further Reading sections in FA: do either of those books have anything useful to say about Truss? If so, shouldn't it be in the article; if not, shouldn't they be elsewhere?
I don't own the books, unlike Out of the Blue (and Into the Red) and The Fall of Boris Johnson; they might be useful for some people, but I won't protest if they're removed.
That's exactly what this section should be used for, in my view: is there any way to access them via e.g. Google Books, Amazon previews or the Resource Exchange? UndercoverClassicist T·C 05:50, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Google Books turns up dry for After Brexit, but does have Johnson at 10. From a skim, I see Truss is only mentioned in the second last page of the preview, regarding the NI Protocol. Doesn't even have the page number either. Not worth the faff, IMO. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:30, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@UndercoverClassicist - Regarding Johnson at 10, just managed to pick up a copy. Will put in some refs shortly. Also, the penultimate paragraph of the entire books reads: "To all the anonymous and meticulous writers of Wikipedia, thank you. We guess that more authors rely on your work than is acknowledged." Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:49, 23 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Scott 2021 is now uncited.
  • Restate "Truss" rather than "she" at the beginning of a new section.
This is the fault of an edit-warring user (will not say who but is easy to find by looking at the recent article history). Fixed, again.
  • which as of September 2023 are: commas: which, as of September 2023, are...
  • Explain what the Institute for Government is.
  • Despite her reduced confidence from the demotion, she bounced back and began to contribute to the department: this is getting a bit too far into Truss's head for an encyclopaedia: bounced back in particular is a phrase that needs to bounce its way back into a newspaper article or stump speech.
Didn't like "bounced back" either, but was struggling to think of a good alternative. Now replaced.
Cliché is resolved but I'm still concerned about the extensive attempts to retrace Truss's inner mental state. Frankly, I'm not sure that anything in Despite her reduced confidence from the demotion, Truss rebounded and began to contribute to the department is truly encyclopaedic (the first part is unknowable, the second is fairly trivial). I'm not sure much would be lost if we simply started that sentence at "According to a Treasury worker...".
From the source: "demoted and demoralised, Truss took up her post on Monday morning, licking her wounds", "Truss was convinced by Baroness Shephard to dust herself down", "she wanted to be a team player ... she wanted to contribute as a minister", "the move [to chief secretary] shook Truss's confidence in her abilities", "she has a bounce back factor like Tigger" and "her confidence had been knocked a lot and she didn't really have anything to do". Important for comprehensiveness that we reflect this. I've rephrased it a bit, though.
It's important for comprehensiveness if we think the source had some insight here: otherwise, we're just repeating guesswork or fanciful reconstruction. At least officially, Truss had no involvement in Cole and Heale's book, and it's difficult to see how anyone else could have any authority at all to make such detailed psychological pronouncements. There's also an element of WP:NOT here: Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia and so needs to be written like one, not like whatever its sources are (e.g., when our sources are newspapers, we don't adopt the stylistic and content choices that newspapers do). UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Truss was interviewed by C&H for the book. Don't care enough—in fact, don't have the energy left—to die on this hill. Attributed and, hopefully, resolved.
  • Before Truss's arrival, the Ministry of Justice's budget had been subjected to successive cuts under the coalition government. This affected prisons and was blamed for their rising rates of violence owing to a drop in the number of prison officers.: a few things here. Firstly, this affected prisons reads as stating the obvious if you know what the MoJ did (and affected is a bit weaselly: affected how?) I'd suggest a slight reemphasis to The budget of the Ministry of Justice, among whose responsibilities was the administration of prisons, had been subjected... This was blamed for the rising rate of prison violence. However, there are four steps in this argument: 1) The MoJ budget was cut, 2) This meant cuts to the prison budget, 3) This caused a decline in the number of prison officers, 4) This made prisons more violent. It's not clear from the current phrasing how many of those are a matter of unquestionable fact (I'd suggest 1 and 2) and how many are a matter of popular or journalistic opinion (almost certainly 3 and 4). More generally, I'm very uneasy about a "was regarded" statement which is cited to a single primary and partisan source: if you try hard enough, you can find a newspaper arguing just about anything, regardless of whether the idea has any real traction outside its pages.
After carefully re-reading this, I believe everything to be addressed, and have included a rock-solid secondary source.
Happy here, assuming good faith on the source (unusually, Google Books doesn't even search this part of the text). Thank you for your patience with it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 05:57, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Truss lobbied the chancellor of the Exchequer Philip Hammond for £104 million: comma off Philip Hammond; we only had one.
  • was instead listed as a candidate for the all-women's St Hilda's College: are we talking about the pool system (only really explained in our Cambridge article, but Oxford does a similar thing) here? If so, I'd explain a bit: as we've currently written it, this sounds like something usual or some kind of mistake, but is in fact an eminently normal part of the process.
    Not sure; sadly I was never accepted into Oxford nor Cambridge, probably because I didn't apply. Contextualised a bit.
  • My issue is with "instead listed as a candidate": that sounds like a mistake (and probably isn't accurate: pooled candidates aren't listed as candidates for anywhere, but picked up by the college that wants them). Do we have the phrasing from the source? UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I see a change to "was chosen as a candidate": the same concern stands, and I'd really like to know how the source put it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Probably going to end up leaking the whole book soon:
    "Summoned before the intimidating ‘five don grill’, in an interview process that ended up lasting days, Truss faced a barrage of eclectic political, philosophical and economic questions from the quintet of Oxford tutors. One of her challenges included writing an essay about Greek philosophy, about which she knew nothing. To her dismay, she was then pooled to the all-women St Hilda’s to be interviewed – a sign that the dons thought Truss wasn’t good enough for Merton."
    Tim O'Doherty (talk) 06:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Perfect (I'm sure Truss would approve of the leaking) - pooled is the technical term for this process, so use that ("she was instead pooled to St Hilda's"), and link to the redirect Winter Pool. If you want, you could include a footnote to summarise the pool system (something like "Under the pool system, colleges can nominate unsuccessful applicants for consideration by others; these these candidates may then be accepted by, or "pooled to", a college other than the one to which they applied."). The second interview is a normal part of the process and happens whether you're pooled or not. It's not ideal that the redirect is currently Cambridge-only, but the systems are similar enough and it's quite possible that someone will write the proper article at some point. UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:26, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Done. By the way, this FAC (159K bytes) is now longer than the article itself (153K). Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:56, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I bet the audio version will be longer than her premiership, too. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:42, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Briefly introduce Ed Vaizey: presumably, lots of other people had opinions about this speech: why name-check him?
Described by Cole as "ultra-Govite"; know by now you won't let that fly, so described him as a "Gove ally".
Slightly journalistic in phrasing: suggest Ed Vaizey, an ally of Gove's; and Gove himself. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:59, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • the blunders she had made on her previous international trips: blunders seems a very strong word for how we've described these so far.
"Mistakes" is a matter of opinion: we should surely assume that she meant to say what she said, even if from her bosses' point of view it was unwelcome. Perhaps "feared she would be dismissed because of her unpopular comments on..."?
  • During her time at the department: we've moved around Whitehall a bit, so I'd restate which department.
I don't think "the international trade department" is really a term that exists; would use the name, especially as it's practically identical. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Instead, she had focussed: the had makes the chronology awkward here. Had she already been doing this during 2020?
Not really, more of a 2021 thing.
OK, so had should be cut, as it implies that the focus predated early 2021. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Spell out United Nations on first use (UN General Assembly).
  • a visit to Estonia where, like Margaret Thatcher, she was photographed in a tank, generating both praise and mockery.: two points of ambiguity here: was Thatcher photographed in Estonia, and was Thatcher both praised and mocked?
It still sounds as if Thatcher was photographed in Estonia; the Thatcher photo was taken in (West) Germany. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • to "catch the Kremlin off guard": you guessed it...
Annoyingly, Cole and Heale do they same: quote it without any real attribution.
We can't do that, unfortunately (another case where they don't have to follow the MOS and we do): on the other hand, it's a pretty common idiom and, given that we can't say who said it, little is lost by simply rephrasing it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Truss strongly advocated: I'd cut strongly as ambiguous ("with conviction" or "with competence"?) and editorialising.
Have to disagree here: Truss did indeed strongly advocate for them.
How do we WP:VERIFY whether she advocated strongly or only ordinarily - what's the empirical, factual difference that could be objectively proved to someone who disagrees? Without getting too philosophical, there are plenty of true statements that are not encyclopaedic. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done.* liberate goods produced in Great Britain from the "unnecessary bureaucracy" entering Northern Ireland: another one that needs attribution for a real political edge: there were good reasons why the bureaucracy was necessary, at least from the EU's point of view. "Liberate" is similarly too loaded a word for us to use here in Wikipedia's voice.
Fixed. Removed "the" so that it implies only some of the bureaucracy was unnecessary.
Still not attributed: "what she called..."? Reads almost as scare quotes at the moment. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Digging a bit deeper, I assume they got the quote from her speech here "The bill will put in place the necessary measures to lessen the burden on east–west trade and to ensure the people of Northern Ireland are able to access the same benefits as the people of Great Britain. The bill will ensure that goods moving and staying within the UK are freed of unnecessary bureaucracy through our new 'green channel'." Fixed.
Great work. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:53, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Truss received 50 votes on the first of Conservative MPs' five ballots: MOS:FIGURES would like consistency here: '5 ballots, given what follows.
OK, although I was under the impression 1-9 are words and 10+ are not.
What's important here is that the MOS doesn't want us to move between words and figures in the same chunk of text. As we have with Truss receiving 113 votes to Sunak's 137 a moment later, and phrasing those in words would be hideous, all numbers in that section should be in figures. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done per the MoS, but that looks, in my opinion, even worse.
  • Her cabinet was notably composed almost entirely of those who had supported her during the leadership contest: cut notably: if it were not notable, we wouldn't be saying it.
  • wrote that "Trussonomics" was effectively dead: we can quote "effectively dead" if Islam wrote it (and tut at the BBC's standards of prose), but otherwise, we should act on MOS:CLICHE and rephrase.
Done. On an unrelated point, wonder why Trussonomics is used way more than Johnsonomics or Sunakomics.
  • She called Saudi Arabia an ally: of her, or of Britain?
  • Truss was tipped for promotion: adjust per MOS:CLICHE.
It's not that bad, is it? "Tipped for promotion" IMO isn't an idiom, just slightly more descriptive language, like "scotch rumours" or "culled ministers". Nothing wrong with that.
All of those are idioms; as you say, it's not that bad if no good alternative can be found (though I'd strongly argue against culled ministers as likely to badly mislead a non-native speaker). What do you think of "widely expected to be promoted"? UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:53, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Still prefer "tipped for promotion" but I won't fight you on this. Changed.
  • Suggest clarifying who the ERG are, as the name implies that they have some connection with the EU (MOS:NOFORCELINK).
Still not really clarified, I'm afraid, and now an unhappy double bluelink. Suggest slowing the prose, breaking up some sentences and adding a brief explanatory clause. We could similarly do with introducing the DUP by where they're from and where they sit politically. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Almost there, but I do think it's parliamentary Conservative party rather than Conservative parliamentary party (it's the parliamentary bit of the Conservative party, not the Conservative bit of the non-existent parliamentary party). UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:53, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I'm a little uncomfortable with the way that quoteboxes have been used in this article. Strictly speaking (per the template page), their use at all in articles is discouraged; granted, there are plenty of FAs that ignore that advice, but they give huge prominence to a relatively small amount of text and therefore there are substantial WP:NPOV concerns around what we choose to give that prominence to. As a whole, they come across as slightly sardonic in hindsight, particularly the "be good at maths" pullout, perhaps the Shephard quotation and certainly the rather faint praise from Cameron and Kwarteng. The Walker quote is highly non-NPOV and I think would need a very strong justification of prominence in HQRS on Truss to stand where it is.
    Walker quote slashed; it was emphasised in her biography, which was why it's there, plus I think we need to capture the zeitgeist of the Truss weeks. Maths quote incorporated into the text. I'd like to keep Truss's closer colleagues' quotes, if that's alright, as I really do think they provide some valuable insight.
  • They certainly do; I just think we need to be confident that they provide sufficiently greater insight than any other possible pullout quote to justify the non-NPOV effect. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Right. Going through each of them:
  • Glover quote: Seems justified to me, decent insight and also pulled out at the start of the bio.
  • Cameron quote: Yeah, think it's fair, given that it would stick out a bit if put into prose.
  • Shephard quote: Am not overly attached to this one: gone.
  • Kwarteng quote: Given that they were quite close friends for over ten years, Kwarteng will have a unique insight; think this one is also fair.
  • Walker quote: like I said, I do think it's important we capture the chaos of Truss's very rapid collapse, and this is the go-to quote for that.
Early life and education
  • Would delete to her dismay: it's unnecessarily psychoanalytical for an encyclopaedia, and it's better to show that she was unhappy with this through her complaint than to tell the reader that it was so. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:33, 14 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • During a previous unsuccessful bid for the LDYS executive, the party's leader, Paddy Ashdown, said Truss was "a good debater and is utterly fearless: could do with a slight rephrase to be clear that Ashdown wasn't standing for the LDYS. Was he endorsing her at the time?
  • Do we know when that bid was? If so, would put this quotation there. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No, source neglects to mention. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:16, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
OK. Another point, but comma off unsuccessful: she only had one unsuccessful bid. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Professional career

I'm not sure about the political/professional division here. Politics is a profession and she is certainly a professional politician; conversely, her time at Reform is hard to describe as totally outside her political activity. Suggest renaming to "career", rolling the two sections together and moving the second into the appropriate chronological place.

  • Suggest explaining the key arguments of at least some of her Reform publications.
    Will get back to you on this once I have a source that tells me.

That's all for tonight @UndercoverClassicist. Thanks for the comprehensive—and, from looking at 29,000 bytes added to my watchlist—stomach-churning review. Will address the rest tomorrow. Much appreciated, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 23:41, 10 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nice work: mostly simply resolved, a few replies. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Political career
  • the motion was put to the association, with both sides making their case in front of the members, : suggest cutting the second clause: this section is already pretty long for something that ultimately had little consequence, and we can generally take as read that people discuss motions before voting on them.
On the fence about this one, might look back later if you want to push it.
Happy to circle back. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ministerial career
  • criticising regulations which she believed affected British people's lifestyles: this still needs a bit of work, I'm afraid: the issue clearly wasn't that they affected people's lives for the better. Nor did she, I suspect, say that regulation should not affect people's lives. Perhaps "arguing for reduced regulation in... [whatever it was]"?
Re "whatever it was": source doesn't say, merely that they are regulations which affect people's lives. That's it. Directly use Truss's quote, as, as ever with her, she cannot give a coherent speech to save her life and I cannot make sense of it without bordering on OR.
Hm - do we have the quotation in context? Could always go for "arguing for reduced regulation in the British economy" or similar, or "British life" if we think she's talking about smoking bans as well as food standards. I sympathise with the problem! UndercoverClassicist T·C 05:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
She's inconsistent about what it is she's attacking, but her main target looks like measures tackling obesity. Added another portion of her speech; not exactly jumping with joy at adding another quote though.
  • Consider a rephrase of "came under attack" per MOS:IDIOM (the Daily Mail didn't, as far as we know, send round people to shoot at them). UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:59, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What do you propose? "Attacked" seems worse.
I'd always err on the side of the literal (as would the MoS): were criticised. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:53, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hm. "Criticised" twice in fifteen words is a bit repetitive: any good synonyms?
How about changing the first one to was accused of failing to support..., which is also slightly more neutral: current phrasing says that it's a fact that she "failed". UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:43, 23 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • On another note in the same section: quoting anonymous sources is a little dangerous, especially in a BLP context. Do we have anything other than the unnamed Treasury worker behind this idea - put another way, can we be sure that we're not simply repeating workplace bloviating or gossip?
That quote seems fine, as he (or she)'s just describing how Truss went about things. Shows really that Truss just could not understand she wasn't able to treat everything like student politics, which really came back to bite her last year.
It does, if it's legitimate: however, since it's anonymous, there's no guarantee that it really shows anything, as we have no way to verify that the source had any knowledge or indeed was anything more than a figment of Cole or Heale's imagination. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:53, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Err... I don't think Cole and Heale were fabricating a quote, or the person saying the quote, or lying about the position of the quotee-in-question for almost no reason. I believe it's genuine.
I've no reason to doubt their integrity either, but AGF doesn't really go too far where BLP is concerned (it wouldn't in a responsible newspaper, either): we need something a bit more like "trust, but verify". This isn't a deal-breaking point for me at the moment, but I'm going to leave it here and chew on it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:43, 23 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • as Hammond was "quite a closed, centrally controlling chancellor": this really needs attribution and an extremely strong justification, as it's BLP in a very prominent article.
I'm still not quite happy here, I'm afraid. Firstly, the sentence no longer quite works grammatically: she wasn't left out because Kwarteng thought Hammond was centralising. Secondly, the framing still takes as fact that Hammond was centralising, and then undercuts itself by acknowledging that this is only a very partisan opinion. Do Cole and Heale say that she was left out of decisions, or is that Kwarteng too? UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:59, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, they do. I tried switching around the "according to Kwarteng" but the sentence doesn't work that way.
Sadly, it doesn't work as it is, either. Suggest something like "was largely left out of decisions by Hammond, who was described by Kwarteng as..." UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Needs the comma before who, but sorted for all intents and purposes. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:53, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Dominic Cummings, Johnson's chief adviser, saying that Truss was "the only minister I shouted at in Number 10": I'm a bit uncomfortable taking Dominic 'Just Testing My Eyes' Cummings so uncritically at his word: he very much had an agenda in making this comment.
Changed it so Cummings' comment isn't treated as gospel.
This now takes us into Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch: we've gone too far the other way. Perhaps "later wrote that"? More generally, you could contextualise (perhaps citing this article? that Cummings was an opponent of Truss's later leadership campaign and made these comments during it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done re "claiming". Not sure about the latter: bit synth-y, is it not?
Yes, a bit, but any time we do anything other than blindly follow a single source, we're doing something synth-y. The question is whether we're making a conclusion that's not supported by the sources. Understand the concern here and I think your solution is a perfectly good one. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:53, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
May be a bit of a tangent. Happy to concede, should you ask again.
  • that spring: per MOS:SEASONS, best to find another way of saying this.
Knew I'd get pulled up on this sooner or later. Source says spring too, doesn't give a specific month. MOS:SEASONS IMO makes very little sense; its rationale is "the seasons are six months apart in the northern and southern hemispheres", which falls apart when you consider that as this unambiguously takes place in the UK, saying "spring" is no different to saying "March", "April", "May" or "June" 2020. "[...] campaigned against such a deal in the northern spring" is absolute rubbish, pedantic, useless prose.
It would be. Sometimes, we can't avoid it, though there are other problems (when exactly does summer start, for example? If you ask a schoolteacher, the Summer Term is April-June...). I think we might be in the best place we can be: "during the first months of her tenure" might work, but is very slightly OR. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:53, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Still prefer "spring": a Norfolk paper seems to pin the timeline at May 2020: see this, this, this, and most explicitly this.
If there's evidence for "May", I'd go with that, as long as you're happy that the evidence holds up. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:43, 23 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • becoming the first British minister to do so since the 2018 Salisbury poisonings: does do so mean to meet Lavrov or to meet Lavrov in Moscow? Presumably the former, in which case I would change it to "meet him".
Actually the latter: expecting a copyright strike soon, but: "In early February Truss travelled to Moscow to meet her counterpart Sergey Lavrov: the first time a British minister had travelled there since the Salisbury attacks in 2018".
  • OK, so we've buried the key point: it's not that she was the first to meet Lavrov in Moscow; she was the first to meet anyone in Moscow. That seems like much bigger news. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:53, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Amid mounting pressure on Johnson in lieu of the Chris Pincher scandal: in lieu of means instead of: we mean in the wake of, but MOS:IDIOM would prefer following. Mounting pressure is a bit of a cliché and a bit journalistic, I think.
Fixed first, think the second is OK.
It's not a hard rule, but MOS:CLICHE has Clichés and idioms are generally to be avoided in favor of direct, literal expressions. There's also Orwell's well-trodden dictum to never write a figure of speech that you are used to seeing in print. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The pressure was mounting on Johnson, and there's no shame on Wikipedia for expressing that. Calling a spade a spade more often than not is a wise thing to do.
Well, in a literal sense, it wasn't: it remained approximately 1 atm almost wherever he went. The problem isn't with saying that Johnson was under increasing pressure, or that Johnson's approval rating was falling and he was losing the loyalty of his colleagues: it's with finding a direct way of saying so. However, with that said, it's a common phrase and not a make-or-break issue on its own. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:53, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • on 5 July Sunak and Javid resigned within minutes of each other, with Johnson again considering giving Truss the chancellorship; he decided against it and instead selected Nadhim Zahawi as Sunak's replacement: This blurs the chronology. Would split after other and then write another main clause: Johnson considered... but decided against it...
  • said she would "fight the election as a Conservative and govern as a Conservative" and take "immediate action to help people deal with the cost of living".: given the long quote, reads much better as and would take
  • Suggest briefly explaining the connection between the 1922 committee and the leadership election.
Not really, I'm afraid: we now have an uncited footnote which doesn't really make clear to anyone who doesn't already know that the 1922 committee was in charge of the leadership election. This book (p202) gives you a citation for the 1922 committee as "the parliamentary party's governing body", this one (p86) gives you "[the committee] has an eighteen-strong executive committee charged with overseeing the election of new leaders". Would suggest taking, rephrasing as needed, and citing the key bits from both. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • With the appointment of Kwarteng as chancellor of the Exchequer: caps on both words, and on the preceding (Prime Minister) and following posts: they are titles, not descriptions (see MOS:JOB.
  • it was a "matter of hours, not days": I'm not going to press for attribution here, as it's not important and probably not even a direct quote, but the it was is very much a MOS:IDIOM. Perhaps she was likely to survive "a matter of..."?
  • was blamed for the pound falling to its lowest ever rate against the US dollar, (US$1.033): the comma is out of place here (should be after the brackets).
  • The mini-budget was received badly by financial markets because of its inclusion of temporary spending measures whilst permanently cutting tax rates: we need this sentence to balance: we start with a noun phrase (its inclusion) and then go on to a participle one (permanently cutting...). Suggest "because it included [only?] temporary spending measures but permanently cut tax rates". Would then make a full stop and start a fresh sentence.
  • Spell out IMF.
  • senior politicians Michael Gove and Grant Shapps: fix false title.
  • the 45 per cent rate of tax : this is specifically income tax, isn't it?
  • with her personal approval rating recorded as nine per cent: this links directly to one survey, and surveys are notorious for having a) a range and b) outliers. We should contextualise this statement more so that we're not putting more weight on the source than it can support.
  • Caps on "Prime Minister" (MOS:JOB).
Isn't it the opposite? "Offices, titles, and positions such as president, king, emperor, grand duke, lord mayor, pope, bishop, abbot, prime minister, leader of the opposition, chief financial officer, and executive director are common nouns and therefore should be in lower case when used generically [...]).
This is the wonderfully-worded exception: When a formal title for a specific entity (or conventional translation thereof) is addressed as a title or position in and of itself, is not plural, is not preceded by a modifier (including a definite or indefinite article), and is not a reworded description. Essentially, when you're talking about kings, presidents or popes in the abstract, it's lower-case, but when you're talking about a specific person or the title itself, it's capitalised. The table below is probably the most helpful thing: we're in the territory of Theresa May became Prime Minister of the United Kingdom in 2016, not Theresa May was the prime minister of the United Kingdom (notice the the). UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:04, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yeah, I know: "Queen" not "queen" when talking about Elizabeth II, etc. Still think that "Prime Minister" looks really strange. The MoS, as a whole, is a really strange diktat. However, I won't protest should you change it yourself. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 21:14, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm afraid there's quite a lot of these in the article: suggest giving it a good look through with that table in mind. The MoS may be a strange master but it is one of the FA criteria: I'm sympathetic to a WP:IAR argument to break it if a specific situation dictates, but I'm not sure there's one here. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:45, 19 September 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]