Wikipedia:Featured article candidates

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This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page.

Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ.

Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time.

The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, Buidhe and Hog Farm—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators:

  • actionable objections have not been resolved;
  • consensus for promotion has not been reached;
  • insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met; or
  • a nomination is unprepared, after at least one reviewer has suggested it be withdrawn.

It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support.

Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as  Done and  Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, used to hide offtopic discussions, and templates such as {{green}} that apply colours to text and are used to highlight examples without altering fonts. Other templates such as {{done}}, {{not done}}, {{tq}}, {{tq2}}, and {{xt}}, may be removed.

An editor is allowed to be the sole nominator of only one article at a time, but two nominations may be allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback.

Nominations in urgent need of review are listed here. To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere.

A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the {{FAC}} template should remain on the talk page until the bot updates {{Article history}}.

Table of ContentsThis page: Purge cache

  • WP:FAC

Featured content:

Featured article candidates (FAC)

Featured article review (FAR)

Today's featured article (TFA):

Featured article tools:


How to nominate an article

Nomination procedure

  • Analysis
  1. Before nominating an article, ensure that it meets all of the FA criteria and that peer reviews are closed and archived. The featured article toolbox (at right) can help you check some of the criteria.
  2. Place {{subst:FAC}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article and save the page.
  3. From the FAC template, click on the red "initiate the nomination" link or the blue "leave comments" link. You will see pre-loaded information; leave that text. If you are unsure how to complete a nomination, please post to the FAC talk page for assistance.
  4. Below the preloaded title, complete the nomination page, sign with ~~~~, and save the page.
  5. Copy this text: {{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/name of nominated article/archiveNumber}} (substituting Number), and edit this page (i.e., the page you are reading at the moment), pasting the template at the top of the list of candidates. Replace "name of ..." with the name of your nomination. This will transclude the nomination into this page. In the event that the title of the nomination page differs from this format, use the page's title instead.

Commenting, etc

Commenting, supporting and opposing

Supporting and opposing

  • To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see the review FAQ for an overview of the review process.
  • To support a nomination, write *'''Support''', followed by your reason(s), which should be based on a full reading of the text. If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this. A reviewer who specializes in certain areas of the FA criteria should indicate whether the support is applicable to all of the criteria.
  • To oppose a nomination, write *'''Object''' or *'''Oppose''', followed by your reason(s). Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the objection, a coordinator may disregard it. References on style and grammar do not always agree; if a contributor cites support for a certain style in a standard reference work or other authoritative source, reviewers should consider accepting it. Reviewers who object are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their objection has been addressed. To withdraw the objection, strike it out (with <s> ... </s>) rather than removing it. Alternatively, reviewers may transfer lengthy, resolved commentary to the FAC archive talk page, leaving a link in a note on the FAC archive.
  • To provide constructive input on a nomination without specifically supporting or objecting, write *'''Comment''' followed by your advice.
  • For ease of editing, a reviewer who enters lengthy commentary may create a neutral fourth-level subsection, named either ==== Review by EditorX ==== or ==== Comments by EditorX ==== (do not use third-level or higher section headers). Please do not create subsections for short statements of support or opposition—for these a simple *'''Support''',*'''Oppose''', or *'''Comment''' followed by your statement of opinion, is sufficient. Please do not use a semicolon to bold a subheading; this creates accessibility problems.
  • If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so, either after the reviewer's signature, or by interspersing their responses in the list provided by the reviewer. Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, or add graphics to comments from other editors. If a nominator finds that an opposing reviewer is not returning to the nomination page to revisit improvements, this should be noted on the nomination page, with a diff to the reviewer's talk page showing the request to reconsider.



Markham's storm petrel

Nominator(s): Therapyisgood (talk) 03:05, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about Markham's storm petrel, described as "one of the least known seabirds in the world". This passed GA in 2020 with a review by Dunkleosteus77 (talk · contribs). A peer review by Z1720 (talk · contribs) in 2021. Thus, I bring to you this article for FAC consideration. Thank you in advance for all those who review. I have asked for a co-nom at Wikipedia:WikiProject Birds, that is still open if you're familiar with the topic. Therapyisgood (talk) 03:05, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Death of Kevin Gately

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 17:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Kevin Gately was a student on his first anti-racism rally; he died that day, but no-one witnessed exactly how that happened. The tragedy of his death an interesting piece of London history and sits in counterpoint to the death of Blair Peach. Any comments are welcome. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 17:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:Kevin-Gately-in-Red-Lion-Square-1974.jpg is missing a fair-use tag. This is described as a press photo - any idea which organization or agency?
  • File:Map_of_Red_Lion_Square_disorders,_showing_key_points_of_interest.png: see MOS:COLOUR
  • File:Leslie_Scarman.jpg: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks Nikki – you’re always so quick on picking these up, and it’s greatly appreciated.
  • Alt text added
  • Gatley: I’ll have to do some digging on this
  • I think the map is probably OK (although if you see any problems, please let me know), so is the caption the only issue you see?
  • Caption is the main problem, although if the route label for the counterprotest were moved to the top right I think that would be clearer. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Replaced the link with the current one.
  • This link doesn't include the given licensing? Nikkimaria (talk) 21:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Their digital collections are CC4 (the details from here have been added to the image. - SchroCat (talk) 22:46, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Source and citation review by Dugan Murphy

Will do in a bit. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:03, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • The publication year for "News Reports" is formatted differently that its neighbors in the sources list. I think that is because it is lacking an author parameter.
  • Same for "South Place Ethical Society".
  • Same for "500 students march as Kevin Gately is buried".
  • Same for "Meeting Room 2 renamed 'The Kevin Gately Room'"
  • Same for "Kevin Gately"
  • Fairhall uses "1974a" instead of "1974". Is that necessary?
  • Wikilink Canadian Journal of History?
  • Wikilink Intercontinental Press?
  • Wikilink The Times?
  • Wikilink The Observer?
  • Wikilink The Guardian?
  • I notice you use the sfnref "'Kevin Gately'. Ancestry", but the source listing doesn't mention, which I'm assuming the use of that word is referring to. If that's how you accessed the death records, I think you should add that to the source listing.

The listed books are all held at academic libraries, which tells me they're reliable. The journals all seem legit. Websites look reliable. The Hansard transcripts certainly are. The death index also looks legit. Aside from the date issues I brought up in my first 6 comments, this list of sources is formatted consistently. So neat and tidy! The inline citations also seem appropriately and consistently formatted. Overall, well done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 00:28, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Burhanuddin Harahap

Nominator(s): Juxlos (talk) 04:28, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Burhanuddin Harahap was Indonesia's 9th (probably, depending on when you start counting) Prime Minister, serving for seven months or thereabouts, including during Indonesia's first election in 1955. Until Abdurrahman Wahid in 2001, no Indonesian head of government would come from an Islamic Party after Harahap. Mostly known to Indonesians through a sentence or two in history textbooks. Article was promoted to GA in August 2022, and was featured in "On this day" the following month. Previous nomination was made before I became aware that I can only make 1 FAC at a time - can someone close it, by the way? Juxlos (talk) 04:28, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

John Manners (cricketer)

Nominator(s): StickyWicket (talk) 12:47, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I got this article to GA class in April 2020 and decided, with some time on my hands in the next few months, to see if it could reach FA status. I have previously listed this for a peer review, but had no input, but I did list it on the cricket project talk page for feedback, which was received and actioned. John Manners was a Royal Navy officer and first-class cricketer, most notable for being the oldest living first-class cricketer ever, until his death in 2020 aged 105. All told, his life was a fascinating one! Looking forward to hearing what comments people have. StickyWicket (talk) 12:47, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Coordinator note

Hi StickyWicket, just noting that as a first time nominator at FAC, this article will need to pass a source to text integrity spot check to be considered for promotion. Good luck with the nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:01, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Don't use fixed px size
    • Fixed - I have removed the px size in the infobox StickyWicket (talk) 09:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Suggest adding alt text
    • Added alt text to the three pictures in the main body of text StickyWicket (talk) 09:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Lt_Cdr_John_Errol_Manners.png needs a more expansive FUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:13, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • I have expanded the FUR for this image StickyWicket (talk) 09:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "With his first-class career further interrupted by the war, Manners returned to first-class cricket in 1947" - maybe just say "With his career further interrupted by the war, Manners returned to first-class cricket in 1947" to avoid repetition?
    • Done. First mention of "first-class" in that sentence removed. StickyWicket (talk) 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "after securing a shore based position" => "after securing a shore-based position"
  • "thus narrowly falling short of becoming the first Hampshire batsman to make a century on their first-class debut" - was the miss really "narrow"? It's not like he scored 98 or 99.....
    • Done. I've removed "narrow". StickyWicket (talk) 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Prior to the United Kingdom's declaration of war on Germany in September 1939, Manners had been saving his leave in order to have a full summer playing county cricket in 1940, but the subsequent declaration would mean it would be more than ten years before he played first-class cricket again" - this contradicts the lead, which says he played first class cricket in 1947, only eight years after war broke out.
    • Fixed. I have clarified that Manners last played first-class cricket prior to the war in 1936, with his next first-class appearance coming in 1947. StickyWicket (talk) 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Manners was recalled back to Britain" => "Manners was recalled to Britain"
  • "Six months later, with Eglinton based at Harwich, Manner's and his wife" - shouldn't have an apostrophe in his name
    • Fixed, well spotted! StickyWicket (talk) 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "although unscathed, four other occupants of the house were killed" => "although they were unscathed, four other occupants of the house were killed" (existing wording indicated that the four people killed were also unscathed)
    • Fixed, thanks for pointing that out, definitely does read that way looking at it again! StickyWicket (talk) 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "a third depth-charge set to “deep”, which caused a prolonged explosion and brought more oil to the surface" - first part has no verb. Maybe reword to "a third depth-charge set to “deep” caused a prolonged explosion and brought more oil to the surface"
    • Done, I have reworded per your suggestion. StickyWicket (talk) 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "where he received the German surrender there" => "where he received the German surrender" ("there" was redundant to "where")
  • "Manners entertained himself by playing in cricket matches against Sydney's leading public schools" - do we know who he played for? Currently it almost reads like he was playing "1 vs 11 matches"......
    • I've had a trawl through Trove and couldn't find any coverage of his cricket while stationed in Sydney, there's normally basic scorecard coverage from club matches around that time, but nothing. Seems the matches were not covered by the local press. So just his Daily Telegraph obituary and memoirs by Yardley-Latham to go by there. StickyWicket (talk) 22:36, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • How about "Manners entertained himself by playing in cricket matches involving Sydney's leading public schools"? Removes the slight implication that he took on an entire school XI by himself..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:35, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
        • Done. Flows better as well. StickyWicket (talk) 09:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "in a first-class match apiece for each" => "in a first-class match apiece" (again "for each" is redundant to "apiece", which means the same thing)
  • "who Manners would visit each Christmas" => "whom Manners would visit each Christmas"
    • Done. 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
  • That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:50, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Marriage License

Nominator(s): Guerillero Parlez Moi

Marriage License is a painting that pushes on the standard assumptions about the limits of art and who it is for. You are more likely to see it on the walls of a midwestern grandmother's house rather than at MOMA. The man or woman on the street would call this painting art without skipping a beat, but art historians and philosophers of art would be more likely to disagree. To add a curve ball, MAD Magazine, yes that MAD Magazine, published a parody of the painting in 2004 that accurately predicted how the winds would shift on LGBTQ rights in American Culture.

Thank you to Ceoil, Premeditated Chaos and P-Makoto for your reviews. I think that the article now meets the standards to be an FA. --In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 07:43, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "using residents form the town" - there's a typo in there
  • "reference photos taken of Stockbridge, Massachusetts native Joan Lahart, her fiancé Francis Mahoney, a retired NBA player, and local shopkeeper Jason Braman" - this could be interpreted as referring to four different people, is there a way to re-word?
    • I reversed the order to make this work --Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:06, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Since its appearance on the The Saturday Evening Post" - repeated "the"
  • "It has been compared to the works of Johannes Vermeer due to Rockwell's use of light and dark by commentators" => "It has been compared by commentators to the works of Johannes Vermeer due to Rockwell's use of light and dark"
  • "After some prodding, Moe agreed to pose for Rockwell" => "After some prodding, Mahoney agreed to pose for Rockwell" (per MOS:SURNAME)
  • "Rockwell drew on both Johannes Vermeer c. 1657–58 The Little Street" - this is a bit weird. I think "Rockwell drew on both The Little Street, painted by Johannes Vermeer c. 1657–58," would work better
  • "The older man in a bowtie sits behind the desk sits looking bored" => "An older man in a bowtie sits behind the desk sits looking bored"
  • "with cat on the floor" => "with a cat on the floor"
  • "one of Rockwell's "most successful canvases,"" - comma should be outside the quote marks (unless this is an American usage with which I am not familiar)
  • "have compared Marriage License and the painting" - huh? Marriage License is the painting.....?
  • "In 2004, as a response to the Goodridge v. Department of Public Health" - add a few words to clarify what this actually is/was
  • "The yellow dress of the woman in the original painting was paralleled" - as previous sentence used present tense I think this one should too
  • "in deciding which marriages as valid" => "in deciding which marriages are valid"
  • External links section is completely empty so can be removed -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:57, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:50, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Reserving a spot. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Dibsing. ♠PMC(talk) 01:15, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Red-throated wryneck

Nominator(s): Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:19, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Father Christmas bought me The Wryneck for Christmas, which inspired me to return here after a long absence. Wrynecks are two species of Old World woodpeckers that don't act much like woodpeckers, spending most of their time eating ants. I've picked the African version to submit here. Thanks to Aa77zz and Doc Taxon for help with a couple of other sources Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:19, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


I made a few minor MOS tweaks here you should probably check to make sure I haven't done anything you disagree with – feel free to change anything you wish.

Is there no picture of a J. r. aequatorialis, for comparison with the other two??

  • "by the IUCN". As this is a little-known organisation, I think full naming in the lead would best.
  • Link "coverts" for those of us who don't know all the nomenclature?
  • Again I think it's best to full name the IUCN

That's the lot – very little to pick up on here. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:42, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • SchroCat thanks for looking. Changes made as suggested. Although there are more than 40 images on commons, all but the solitary Ethiopian bird are from South Africa, no J. r. pulchricollisJimfbleak - talk to me? 07:41, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support. All good from me. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:04, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


The article looks in good shape and I can't find much to quibble about. I don't have Gorman 2014 or Gorman 2022 (or Birds of Africa Vol 3). Here are some comments.

  • Consider citing Wagler 1830 when his description is first mentioned.


  • "as a displacement activity" – true to source but this strikes me as very odd way to describe the behaviour of a bird.


  • "They measure 22 mm × 20 mm (0.87 in × 0.79 in) and weigh about 3.4 g (0.12 oz)." This is incorrect – the eggs are certainly more elongated than this. The cited source, BOW, has: "size 20·5–23·5 mm × 15·5–17·5 mm, mass 3 (7)–3·5 g (6)". Taking the mid points of the ranges gives 22 x 16.5 mm with a weight of 3.25g. (There is a published formula to calculate the weight of an egg in grams (0.51 x L x B^2) where L and B are in cms. This gives 3.05 g ) I notice that Tarboton (p 107) describes the eggs as cream coloured rather than white (but pale cream and white are very similar). The eggs of J. torquilla are described as white in BWP (They are slight smaller at 21 x 15mm).
  • Not sure what happened there, I've changed and stuck with the mean rather than the formula. As a bit of OR, I think even the Eurasian eggs are more cream/ivory than chalky white, so I've changed to the catch-all "creamy white" Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:25, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'll continue looking and may post more comments later. - Aa77zz (talk) 14:23, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • The article claims that both the nominate race and pulchricollis are found in "southern Sudan". From the range map I think this should be South Sudan (since 2011). It is unlikely that there are two subspecies in South Sudan (they cannot be sympatric) and from the text of Cornell BOW it appears that only pulchricollis occurs there. - Aa77zz (talk) 15:15, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Aa77zz thanks for reading and comments so far Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:24, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The typical generation length is 3.5 years.[1]" – where [1] is the IUCN. The IUCN doesn't provide a source for this number or explain how it was calculated – it would presumably require a long-term study – which are rare for African birds. The IUCN is not a suitable source for this type of information. (I notice that the IUCN also gives 3.5 years as the "Generation length" of the Eurasian wryneck).
  • "Fossil wrynecks are known from Europe in the Pleistocene, between 2.6 million and 11,700 years ago.[3]". Fossils are problematic and I usually steer clear of them. They are usually very fragmentary and there is often considerable uncertainty in their age and in how they relate to extant species. Nevertheless, you might consider mentioning the fossil described in De Pietri et al 2011 or perhaps just the date. A comprehensive phylogeny of the woodpecker family by Shakya et al. 2017 used the date of 22.5Mya for the split of Jynx from the rest of the Picidae to calibrate their phylogeny (p. 185): "We also applied two other calibration points: 22.5 Ma from the fossil Piculoides saulcetensis representing the split between Jynx from the rest of the Picidae (De Pietri et al., 2011);.." The De Pietri fossil consists only of "the distal end of a tarsometatarsus". The references are (I think both are open access):
    Shakya, S.B.; Fuchs, J.; Pons, J.-M.; Sheldon, F.H. (2017). "Tapping the woodpecker tree for evolutionary insight". Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution. 116: 182–191. doi:10.1016/j.ympev.2017.09.005.
    De Pietri, V.L.; Manegold, A.; Costeur, L.; Mayr, G. (2011). "A new species of woodpecker (Aves; Picidae) from the early Miocene of Saulcet (Allier, France)". Swiss Journal of Palaeontology. 130 (2): 307–314. doi:10.1007/s13358-011-0021-8..

- Aa77zz (talk) 12:32, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Aa77zz I've incorporated those refs, for which thanks. I'm not completely convinced that what I've written makes sense though Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Consider mentioning alternate common names in the Taxonomy and etymology section so that you can remove the cite from the lead. I've just looked at the use of common names. The HBW book article and BOW use "rufous-necked wryneck", the Helm guides (East and West Africa) both use "red-throated wryneck". BOW haven't implemented redirects - "red-throated wryneck" is not found. Note that articles in HBW usually list alternate common names.

Support – another excellent article from Jim. - Aa77zz (talk) 10:50, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Aa77zz Thanks for your help and support, I've moved the ref as suggested. I couldn't find any other common variations beyond those used by Gorman 2014. The original article had another variation that wasn't actually listed in its source (the Gorman book with another publisher} Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:14, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Frilled lizard

Nominator(s): LittleJerry (talk) 00:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about arguably the most recognizable lizard in the world. I used a fair amount of scientific peer reviewed articles that cover nearly all the most important facts about the species. It has gone through a good article review which included a spotcheck and image review. I think we're almost there. LittleJerry (talk) 00:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • Don't use fixed px size
I have to for the cladogram. Otherwise the images will be giant. LittleJerry (talk) 13:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Chlamydosaurus_kingii_engraving_by_Mr._Curtis_1827.jpg needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:22, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 13:08, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Jim

  • Its distinctive appearance has been used in media —perhaps depicted?
  • The specific name, kingii, is a Latinised form of King's last name. —perhaps The specific name, kingii, is a Latinised form of King?
  • Grey’s cartilages —not linked or explained
  • The frill displays a variation of colours from west to east —perhaps add across its range. I wondered momentarily why the colour depended on the lizard's orientation
  • soil draining — soil drainage?
  • do so while feeding or to escape from predatorsHunting, rather than feeding
  • The species has been featured on some coins. —bit vague, no indication even of which nation's currency
  • I fixed a couple of obvious typos too Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:46, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Fixed all. LittleJerry (talk) 22:27, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support I can't see any other obvious problems Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "which is when spends" - missing word
  • "The species is cleared to be" - is "cleared" the right word there?
  • "analysis of the species across its range using" - using what? There seems to be at least one word missing here
  • Which variant of English is this article written in? I can see "center" (American) but also "behaviour" (British) (but also "behavior" as well)
  • "The colours of the frill varies" - the subject (colours) is plural, so the verb should be too
    • It now says "the colours of the frills varies", which is still incorrect..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:24, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:18, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Consumption of ants drops after early dry season fires but raises" => "Consumption of ants drops after early dry season fires but rises"
  • "it watches for potential prey from a tree and upon finding it, climbs down" => "it watches for potential prey from a tree and, upon finding it, climbs down"
  • "many "captive bred" lizard" => "many "captive bred" lizards"
  • "Frilled lizard may also" => "Frilled lizards may also"
  • "portrayed with a similar looking neck frill that raised when attacking" => "portrayed with a similar looking neck frill that rose when attacking"
  • Last image caption is not a complete sentence so it doesn't need a full stop -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:32, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Fixed all. LittleJerry (talk) 19:48, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support - nice one -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ayn Rand

Nominator(s): RL0919 (talk) 21:03, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It has been a few years since my last FAC, so I decided to return with a bang. This is a level-4 vital article about one of the most controversial authors of the 20th century. Rand wrote Broadway plays, Hollywood screenplays, and bestselling novels, but she is most commonly discussed today because of the ideas she championed in her later novels and nonfiction essays. She is sometimes considered a key figure in "libertarianism" or "neoliberalism" – labels she rejected or never heard of (respectively). This longtime GA article has been updated with recent scholarship about her background, impact, and academic reception, to make it ready for FAC feedback. RL0919 (talk) 21:03, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Vanamonde

I'd quite like to review this in depth, but I'm not sure I'll have the time: I'm scrambling in RL. So I'm leaving two drive-by comments, in the hope that I will revisit this later. First, I was pleasantly surprised by the extent to which scholarly work is represented in the source material; for such a contentious figure, I would have assumed that media sources would have crept in over time. On a quick read through, however, I get the impression that in many places the text mentions the existence of reviews or critique rather than summarizing their substance. I'm also a little hesitant about the structure, in particular the distribution of critical material across five sub-sections. Thanks for bringing an article this important to FAC! Vanamonde (Talk) 21:36, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for your interest, Vanamonde. Any actionable feedback to improve the article is welcomed, even if you aren't able to provide a full review. --RL0919 (talk) 23:44, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • File:Ayn_Rand_signature_1949.svg: source link is dead
  • File:Aristotle_Altemps_Inv8575.jpg needs a tag for the original work
  • File:Immanuel_Kant_(painted_portrait).jpg needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:20, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for the quick review, Nikkimaria. I made the following changes:
  • For the signature, archive link added.
  • For the photo of the Aristotle bust, added "PD-art-70-3d" license tag.
  • For the photo of the Kant painting, changed license tag to "PD-art-old-100-expired", which includes US status.
Let me know if you spot anything further that is needed. --RL0919 (talk) 03:33, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

1998 Tour de France

Nominator(s): Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:18, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about the 85th running of the Tour de France, the most famous bicycle race in the world. It was in FA review 3 years ago and received two supports, but lack of more engagement led to the nomination stalling and being closed. I am hoping to have more success this time around. Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:18, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

John C. Young (college president)

Nominator(s): PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 05:52, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

John C. Young, the fourth president of Centre College in Danville, Kentucky, was instrumental in saving the "struggling" college; Centre's graduating class size went from two students in his first year to 43 in his last. He served as president for 27 years, longer than any other in Centre's history, before he died in office and was buried in Danville. During his life he was also a minister; he was licensed to preach in 1827 and took the pastorate of Danville's Presbyterian Church four years after coming to Centre. The popularity of his preaching led him to open a new church in Danville in 1852; he was also elected moderator of the Presbyterian Church General Assembly the next year. In addition, he is the namesake of an academic building on campus and was the father of a future Centre president.

This is my second FAC; the first, 2020 US Open (tennis), was archived after I wisely nominated it right before finals week and did not respond to several comments. I was mentored for this nomination by Hog Farm - many thanks go to him for his willingness to assist me. Details can be seen on the article talk page. I look forward to any and all feedback that reviewers can provide! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 05:52, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • File:John_C._Young_by_John_Sartain_(cropped).jpg needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:20, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria I have added a tag to the Commons page detailing US copyright status. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 00:29, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
When and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:30, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria The source website says that it was published in the mid-19th century, though it doesn't list a specific date or a location. I can keep looking but I'm not sure what I'll be able to find. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 00:39, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The source website gives the "date" as the mid-19th century, but doesn't specify whether that date was publication or only creation. What is the earliest publication that can be confirmed? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:41, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria I have changed the Commons licensing tag to a broader one that doesn't rely solely on publication date; I will do some more digging but at this moment I don't have an exact date or location for creation or publishing. I can reach out to Centre for more info or potentially for a different image if this one isn't suitable for these reasons. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 00:52, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That would be helpful - it isn't clear at this point that this would be PD, if publication is uncertain. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:54, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria Not sure why I hadn't seen this yet - according to Centre's digital archives, the engraving was published in 1890 in the General Catalogue of the Centre College of Kentucky. Location of publication is listed as Danville. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 01:29, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sorry, do you have a link to where it says that? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:33, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Right, I’m sorry about that. Here’s the page I found. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 01:50, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Logan (novel)

Nominator(s): Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An 1822 novel of sex and violence on the colonial American frontier so incoherent "it is like the raving of a bedlamite" and so emotionally intense that "You are fagged and fretted to death, long and long before you foresee the termination." Yet studded with pearls of genius that meaningfully foreshadowed successors Poe, Whitman, and Hawthorne. Just read the plot summary ... if you dare, for it makes no. Damn. Sense. Awesome, right? This nomination, if successful, will be my 7th FAC/FLC of an article I produced from scratch – the 3rd about a John Neal (writer) novel. Having applied what I've learned from past nomination reviews, I'm confident about this article's quality. I'm nevertheless looking forward to hearing what comments people have, given that these articles always improve considerably with critique. Thank you in advance for your time! Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

  • Colonial Virginia frontier" I'm not quite sure what this is supposed to convey to the reader in terms of location.
Reworded. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Can some of the repeated mentions of sex and violence in the first PP be consolidated?
Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Logan is Neal's second novel," Consider "was"
Sure. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "provided considerable influence to future American writers" maybe "influenced later American writers"?
Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The novel is considered important to scholars studying the roles of Gothic literature" Should "to" be "by"?
Yes. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "stupefies" How?
Removed. The plot summary was too long anyway. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In real life it would be the Governor of Virginia, not Jamestown (and I believe the capital was Williamsburg by then). Is it different in the book?
Reworded to remove Jamestown. Jamestown is mentioned a little after this scene, but I realize that's not connected to this. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "royal family history" Was George Clarence royal then? This isn't made clear.
Changed to British nobility, which seems more appropriate. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Harold's father, George of Salisbury, left children in England to live as Logan among the Indigenous Mingo tribe in America." This sentence is difficult to understand.
Reworded. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Or it may be that Neal meant for this mass death scene at the novel's conclusion to symbolize the American Revolution's function of renewing this agglomeration of colonial-era American nations into US nationhood.[19]" I might simplify and simply state that the revolution helped combine the separate states into a single American nation".
Reworded. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "but then channels into a war he leads the Mingos into against the English." The double use of "into" especially when juxtaposed with "against" is a bit awkward.
Reworded. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • " can be read as a breakdown of literary constraints," possibly "disregard" for "breakdown". More generally, what I read you as saying in this passage, was that just as the American colonists had to throw off British rule to form a distinctly American government, American writers had to throw off British literary conventions to form a distinctly American literature. You could say it better than you do.
Reworded. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • " but more recently" maybe "but most recently"?
Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "and had worked for years on refining his theory or poetry to the point that he came to see the novel as the highest form of literature, able to communicate a poetic prose superior to formal poetry." Maybe theory of poetry was meant?
Precisely! Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "His next (also anonymously-published) novel after that, Randolph, includes this criticism of Logan from the protagonist: "Nobody can read it through, deliberately, as novels are to be read. You are fagged and fretted to death, long and long before you foresee the termination."[85] Two years after that," A timeframe would be good.
Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's it for now. Interesting article.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:28, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you for taking the time to read it through and write out some comments. I believe they are all addressed. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Support Wehwalt (talk) 21:14, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest scaling up the Sons of Liberty illustration
I downloaded the image, cropped the border, and updated the image using "Upload a new version of this file". That went through, but the image still displays with the border. Then I tried uploading the cropped image as Boston_Tea_Party_Currier_colored_crop.jpeg, but the Upload Wizard tells me it is a duplicate of Boston Tea Party Currier colored.jpg. Do you have advice on how to proceed? Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Nevermind. Figured it out. Dugan Murphy (talk) 18:51, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Statue_of_Chief_Logan_the_Orator_(Logan,_West_Virginia).jpg: what's the copyright status of the statue?
I ended up swapping it out for File:Logan finding his murdered family LCCN2005683513.jpg. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Boston_Tea_Party_Currier_colored.jpg needs a US tag. Ditto File:The_Pioneers_illustration_by_Darley.jpg
Both changed. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:John_Neal_by_Sarah_Miriam_Peale,_c._1823,_oil_on_canvas_-_Portland_Museum_of_Art_-_Portland,_Maine_-_DSC04059.jpg: when is the first known publication of this image? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Funny you should ask. When we had this conversation precisely one year ago, I said that the earliest I could find it on public display is 2013. We then decided to switch the copyright tag to PD-US-unpublished. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for reviewing the images! I believe these issues are all addressed, except scaling the Tea Party image. I'd appreciate your advice on that. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Third-party comment: It looks like you successfully cropped out the border on the image. If you are still seeing it, it is probably a caching issue in your browser. --RL0919 (talk) 14:41, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you! You are correct. It seems that all of the image review comments are addressed. Dugan Murphy (talk) 18:51, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "Logan is Neal's second novel," => "Logan was Neal's second novel,"
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:34, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • That's all I got on the lead. Apologies, I need to drop off now, but I will endeavour to look at the rest later today or tomorrow -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:26, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I look forward to more comments. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:34, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Harold learns his father left behind" => "Harold learns that his father left behind"
Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 18:41, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "when your nation was a collossus" - is that how that last word is spelt in the book? If so, I would suggest adding [sic] given that it isn't the correct spelling
That's a typo. Fixed! Dugan Murphy (talk) 18:41, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The Logan of real life is an Indigenous leader of the Mingo people" => "The Logan of real life was an Indigenous leader of the Mingo people"
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Or it may be that Neal" - starting a sentence with "Or" does not read well, suggest changing it to "Alternatively,"
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Logan is Neal's second novel, but his first of notable success" => "Logan was Neal's second novel, but his first of notable success"
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "astonishment that the still life of the Pioneers," - title should be in italics
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "noting that Logan, along with Neal's subsequent novels Seventy-Six and Brother Jonathan are" => "noting that Logan and Neal's subsequent novels Seventy-Six and Brother Jonathan are" -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:54, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you very much for the comments! I believe they are all addressed. Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Albert Levitt

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 15:47, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about... A must unusual but undoubtedly talented individual (though, perhaps, a bit unhinged) about whom I started this article 14 years ago as part of my research on Nixon's early elections. One can focus on the religious obsessions of his later years, or his being a perennial fringe candidate in multiple states, but still, he got a trio of degrees from Ivy League universities, married a feminist and then a wealthy widow, and got a significant Supreme Court decision named after him without either going to jail or being involved in a lengthy lawsuit. Enjoy.Wehwalt (talk) 15:47, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

SupportComments by Dugan Murphy

I'll write some out in a bit. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:38, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • "as a young man,": you probably want a period instead of a comma.
  • Seems worthwhile to Wikilink Unitarianism in the lead and first section of the body.
  • "1,600 miles (2,600 km) trip" should be "1,600-mile (2,600 km) trip" or another wording.
  • "Chapel, in Brooklyn": comma doesn't seem necessary.
  • Is AFS Intercultural Programs and appropriate article to Wikilink when referring to Levitt's WWI service?
  • "the war in 1917": what war? I know you mean WWI, but the article doesn't make that clear.
  • "its army": French or US?
I was trying to avoid a repetition of United States or a variant and I think the sentence is clear but I've made it explicit.
  • I recommend Wikilinking Elsie Hill from the photo caption.
  • I recommend Wikilinking ROTC.
  • I recommend Wikilinking LL.B.
  • "women's activist" is a poor phrase, I think. Maybe "women's rights activist" or "women's suffragist" instead?
  • "seeking to draft": change to "drafting" or leave as-is?
  • The sentence that starts "He also consulted with future" is too cumbersome, I think. It would likely work better as two sentences.
  • If you're going to use "NWP", then you should include it in parentheses earlier, like you do for ERA.
  • Same for "PUC" later on.
  • "claimed that they had approved": I stumbled reading this, thinking "they" were the activists, but it seems "they" are Pound and Frankfurter. I recommend rephrasing to make that more clear.
  • "not now" seems awkward. Perhaps "no longer"?
  • "friends of associates": should that be "friends and associates"?
  • Wikilink Juris Doctor for J.D.?
  • ", unconventional": I'm thinking the comma would do better as a colon.
I'm inclined to leave it as is.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:30, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "at Brussels,": should be a period instead of a comma.
  • "it was suggested": who suggested it? I recommend avoiding passive voice here if you can.
It's just a paraphrase of the source. "in accordance with the suggestion made at that time that a tentative code be prepared by each delegate."
  • "state House": should both or neither words be capitalized? I'm thinking neither.
I fear there would be ambiguity, so I've deleted it. It should be clear he was filing as an independent inn the race he just lost.
  • "state Supreme Court": similar to above, I'm thinking no capitalization needed, unless using the organization's actual name.
I don't see that the article is terribly applicable or helpful to the reader.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:50, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The sentence that starts "Governor Cross refused to debate" is another cumbersome one. I recommend breaking it up.
  • "The Courant noted,": Given that the quote that follows is two complete sentences, I believe a colon would be more appropriate than a comma.
  • When referring to congressional districts, sometimes they're capitalized, sometimes not. I think they should not be. Sometimes the numbers are spelled out and sometimes they are not. You should make that consistent in either form.
  • "Federal employees": no need to capitalize. Same with "Federal judges".
Done except for one direct quote.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:50, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Citation 55's formatting is messed up.
What's wrong with it?--Wehwalt (talk) 15:50, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Looks like it was fixed with this edit. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:37, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Never heard "Interior Department" before. I've always seen "Department of the Interior". I recommend switching.
  • The sentence that starts "When Cramer was nominated" is way too much. I recommend splitting it up.
  • "Cummings'" should be "Cummings's" per MOS:'S
  • "Black had been elected for a six-year term beginning in 1933": it took me a while of wondering how he was elected to the supreme court before I realized this refers to his senate seat. I recommend rewording.
  • "as Van Devanter, as a retired justice": seems like too many ases.
  • The sentence that starts "That day, while the court sat" is way too long and has way too many commas. I recommend splitting it up and removing the need for so many commas.
  • Seems appropriate to Wikilink Union Party (United States).
  • I'm confused by the sentence that starts "Although Levitt was defeated". How is the Union Party's choice of a gubernatorial candidate connected to Levitt's loss in the probate judge race? I'm also unclear on the vote count math that in Cross's loss. I recommend rewording.
I've rephrased. Baldwin was on the ballot twice, as a Republican and as a Unionist. The combined total elected him, but he needed the Union Party votes to outpoll Cross. Levitt had successfully sued to get the Union Party on the ballot. I can't say with certainty that Levitt's lawsuit elected Baldwin, because those who voted for him on the Union Party ticket might have voted for him anyway but there was certainly the appearance of being a kingmaker.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:26, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The references to Great Britain should be changed to the UK. Great Britain is the island and UK is the country.
I've changed to Britain. Will that do?--Wehwalt (talk) 16:26, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done down to here.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:04, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I recommend adding a word here: "with the others in the Republican primary [being] cross-filing Democrats"
  • "Anti-Communist" is capitalized, but "communist" is not. I think both should not be capitalized.
  • I recommend changing "per cent" to "percent" given the article's use of American English.
  • "Army" is capitalized in the lead, but I think it shouldn't be, unless spelled out as "US Army" or something like that.
  • Infobox: doesn't list French ambulance service. Should it?
While the ambulance service was under the command of the French Army, I don't believe he had formally enlisted in military service. We do not list military service in the infobox for Ernest Hemingway, who served in Italy under similar circumstances.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The number of citations to primary (albeit WP:INDEPENDENT) source newspaper articles looked alarming to me when I first skimmed the article. Reading through it, I didn't find any use of those primary sources that clearly conflicts with WP:PRIMARY. As far as comprehensiveness is concerned, do you think there is any scholarship you're missing here that could add some analysis to this article? There is plenty of factual detail about the doings of his life, but given the reliance on primary sources, little analysis about the impact he had or his place in history. I'm also tempted to say that there's WP:EXCESSDETAIL in this article, which plays out in a lot of play-by-play of events in Levitt's life. Do you see opportunities for summarizing more? I think the lead is an appropriate summary of the article, but to me is really wanting of some analysis, which the body doesn't have, unfortunately.

Regarding the amount of detail, the article goes into greater detail in a few portions: The description of Levitt's involvement with the ERA, something that is mentioned by multiple secondary sources on the ERA. The Connecticut battles of the early 1930s, which is where he seems to have made his mark during his lifetime as it was mentioned in most versions of his obituaries that were longer than a paragraph. The judgeship: there was more of a battle over his appointment than I spend time. African-Americans wanted one of their own, given the racial makeup of the VIrgin Islands. There's a JSTOR article I have that says John Nance Garner, the VPOTUS, wanted a Texan and thought Levitt was African-American, which he didn't want. I didn't want to spend the time on it, especially as it wasn't clear why the choice fell on Levitt.
The other area where I dwell a bit is the 1950 Senate campaign. In my view, that's worth spending time on, both because the intersection with a future president, Nixon, makes it noteworthy, and because it adds to Wikipedia's existing quality writing on the 1950 Senate election, which is a FA.
The scholarship on Levitt is minimal. As I said, there's some on the ERA. There's some on his Virgin Islands judgeship, both the source I mentioned above and the ones we use in the article. There's law review commentary on Ex parte Levitt, which is a significant case in the law of standing, but it doesn't get into him as a person. It's a fair question. I like to write an assessment section to round off an article. But here, the material to work with just isn't there.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:58, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This is a nice, straightforward article in an appropriately encyclopedic voice that is mostly clear and understandable. And what a figure! Dugan Murphy (talk) 06:34, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Many thanks. I think I've gotten to or responded to everything.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I approve your responses to all the issues I raised, including the items you kept the same. I am inclined to agree with your defense of the article's level of detail. Such is the fate of biographies of really busy people with long lives, especially when they're involved in events that require explanation for the average reader to understand. It's really too bad there isn't more scholarship on this interesting and impactful life, so we'll live with the lack of analysis. FYI: I just noticed inconsistent use of US/U.S., so I changed instances of the former to match the latter. Having done that myself, I am inclined to support this nomination on all the FA criteria but the images and sources, neither of which I looked at, though at a glance, the sources look fine. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:37, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:Miss_Elsie_M._Hill,_152005v.jpg needs a US tag, and what is the author's date of death?
Replaced with another image and the tag does not go to date of death.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Levitt_for_Congress_1958.jpeg is tagged as lacking description. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:25, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've fixed that image description. Thank you for the image review.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Putting down a marker... - SchroCat (talk) 20:37, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've heard of 'never the bridesmaid, never the bride', but this guy takes the prize on it!

  • A brief aside, but I'm trying out the new Vector skin for a bit – without the TOC between lead and first section, it does push infoboxes quite far down the articles. This one reaches to part way through the Harvard and the ERA section on my screen (although that will vary on a myriad of grounds for others). There's nothing to do about it, but its lucky the photo of Elsie Hill is not pushed out of her section altogether.
  • "minister, attorney, and government official" uses a serial comma, "Connecticut, California and New Hampshire" doesn't. Whichever you choose should be consistent
Harvard and the ERA
  • "Dean Pound was willing": Just "Pound", rather than the title?
Roving professor
  • "receiving his J.D.": I had to use the blue link to find out what a JD was – maybe a couple of words to help?
I've made it clear he was going to law school.
Judge (1935–1936)
  • "President Roosevelt": Just "Roosevelt"?
1950 Senate primary
  • Nixon "had in fact been responsible for aiding the Communist Party": while I presume there was little or no basis for this, I think you may need to give a detail or two on exactly why Levitt thought that?
The source spares us his reasoning. However, it seems consistent with his other bêtes noires, such as his commentary on McCarthy, that in attacking the communists, they were in fact aiding them.
Perennial candidate
  • "Albert Levitt gave an address": just "Levitt"?
Well, now you have two Levitts and Lilla said she was from Frederick, Maryland.
  • You don't link "vice president" (nor "president", above): I presume this is deliberate, but I'll raise the question in case it's an oversight
Yes, seems to me a low probability click, that in looking at what is certainly not a basic-level article on American law and politics, that a link to those offices would be necessary for the reader.
  • "He continued to warn against the "subversive" political activities of the Catholic Church."[125]" There's an extra quote mark here

That's the lot from me; he seems an eccentric sort, forever tilting at windmills! Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 12:14, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Indeed. Levitt is, quite possibly, an epitome of misguided talent. Thanks for the comments.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:23, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Support All good - either in your edits, or your reasons for not picking up on the suggestions. Nice piece on someone I'd never heard of before. (Caveat: I have no knowledge on the subject, so this is a review only of the prose, and not of the completeness or reliability of the sources used.) Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 16:32, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Could Levitt's political party affiliation be inserted in the infobox? Seeming that he ran multiple times for Congress, and that he was both a Democrat and Republican, it seems important enough to be included to me. -- Politicsfan4 (talk) 04:06, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Alexis Soyer

Nominator(s): Tim riley talk 18:19, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Having been party (with SchroCat) to getting the English food writers Elizabeth David and Jane Grigson to FA, I now present for scrutiny a French chef, who made his career in London. He was an adventurous fellow, and eventually died, young, having picked up at least one horrible disease when helping Florence Nightingale improve the conditions of British troops in the Crimean War. Before that, he revolutionised kitchen design, transforming smoky hell-holes into healthier working spaces. He also did his bit to alleviate the Irish potato famine. Quite a lad! I hope I have done him justice. I'm grateful to Chiswick Chap for a most helpful review at GAN, and I offer the article for consideration here. Tim riley talk 18:19, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Unlimitedlead

Hey, Tim. I'll begin this review over the next few days. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:39, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • The Manual of Style (WP:OVERLINK section) tells us not to link countries, capital cities, or everyday words and phrases. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Many of the aforementioned missing links likewise do not appear in the article either.
  • Please briefly mention Florence Nightingale in the lead before name-dropping her. Sadly, the only reason I even know who that is is the American sitcom Austin & Ally.
  • I've added "the nursing pioneer" Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Emery Soyer and his wife, who are thought to have been Protestants..." Though by whom? Historians?
  • As far I know, by everyone who has written about the subject. Some state it unequivocally; other less so, and I have drafted in the light of that. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • OK. Done. I think it's all right to do so under WP:OVERLINK. Not everyone will have seen the word before. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • She is introduced seven words earlier: "Later biographers ..." Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "...his association with the fallen Bourbon elite made him..." The House of Bourbon was a royal house, so maybe "elite" isn't the most appropriate word to use here.
  • Being king or one of his ministers seems pretty élite to me. Happy to replace it with a better alternative if you can suggest one Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It just occurred to me: maybe aristocracy?
That is fine, and now adopted. Tim riley talk 20:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The Early years section says that "[Soyer's] career in Paris was halted by the July Revolution in 1830", but the London section goes on to say "By the time of the 1830 revolution in France, Philippe Soyer had been living and working in London for several years". I don't know if it's just me, but these sentences sound like they contradict each other. How can Soyer's career in Paris be influenced by the 1830 revolution if he had been living in London for years before 1830?
  • The article is about Alexis Soyer. It was, as we state, Philippe Soyer − whom we have met two paragraphs earlier − who was living in London in 1830. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The paragraph beginning with "The kitchen used a variety of fuels: coal, charcoal, and gas..." could use a lot of hyperlinks.
  • WP:OVERLINK applies here. I can't believe any reader will need to be told what coal or gas is. I've linked charcoal, just in case the word is unfamiliar to any reader of the article. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Afterthought: your raising the point prompted me to look elsewhere in the article, and I have added links to three culinary terms with which some may be unfamiliar: whitebait, lark and truffle. Thank you for raising the point in general. Tim riley talk 18:44, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Probably OK and not a violation of WP:OVERLINK − so done. Perhaps other reviewers would be kind enough to give a view on this, though. 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
  • The phrase "and to give up alcohol, of which he had long been a devotee" sounds awkward. Perhaps "devotee" is not the best word to use here.
  • I struggled with this when drafting, and will happily substitute a better wording if you can suggest one. From the sources, he clearly liked a glass or two, but to what extent is not clear. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Maybe "partaker"? This won't affect my decision to support, however. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:32, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Unlimitedlead (talk) 14:25, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you for your comments. Much appreciated. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly, Tim; I enjoyed this light read. I'll go ahead and support this nomination. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:34, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you for your review and now for your support. I enjoyed writing the article and I'm delighted you enjoyed reading it. Tim riley talk 19:49, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • File:Alexis-Soyer-by-Emma-Soyer.png: how can this be dated to 1847 when the author died in 1842?
  • Good question. I can't recall where I got the April 1847 date from (I think it might be when the Reform Club acquired the picture.) Adjusted. Tim riley talk 10:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Emma-Soyer-self-portrait.png: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:Reform-Club-kitchens.png, File:Fanny-Cerrito-1842.png
  • Emma Soyer: No information about first publication. As both artist and engraver died more than 100 years ago I thought the "PD:old" tag would cover it. Tim riley talk 10:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Reform-Club-kitchens: Published as a print in 1842 in London. But again, I thought the PD:old tag was appropriate. Tim riley talk 10:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Fanny Cerito: No information about when and where it was first published. The artist died in 1876, and again, I took it that the life+100-year rule applied. Tim riley talk 10:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Soyer's-soup-kitchen.jpg: suggest using the tagging from File:Pacha-iln-banquet.jpg instead
  • File:Soyer_Stove.png needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:52, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Serves me right for using anything from Commons! Replaced with tagged image. Tim riley talk 10:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • Support I did a review offline for this pre-GAN, and the article has only strengthened since then. - SchroCat (talk) 13:54, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Thank you, SC: I have much appreciated your off-line reviews (and your rummaging for sources) for me during your Wiki-break, and am chuffed to have you back with us. − Tim riley talk 17:14, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Gog the Mild

Recusing to review.

  • "He left the Reform in 1850", Optional: give Reform Club in full.
  • Once it has been given in full it seems unidiomatic not to refer it just as the Reform, rather as having referred to, say, the Savoy Theatre, one would then just call it the Savoy, and ditto the Ritz Hotel and subsequently just the Ritz. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • " In the Crimea, Soyer was seriously ill, and never fully recovered his health." I know I am a comma minimalist, but are you sure about those two? Or at least the first.
  • I too am a comma grudger, but "In the Crimea Soyer" looks odd to me. I could lose the second comma without missing it, though. What think you? Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • On reflection I've turned the second comma into a semicolon. Tim riley talk 19:52, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "persona non grata". I do not believe that this needs italics, but if it does it needs a language template.
  • I see what you mean, but our WP article italicises the term in its title and in its text, without labelling it a foreign phrase. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
WP is not a RS, and certainly not a HQ one. In my personal opinion this is not a foreign phrase, and so does not need italics. The MoS is clear: if foreign it needs a lang template; if not, it doesn't need italics.
Italics removed. The OED is clearly wrong. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The duke died in July". Upper case D?
  • I would prefer one, but the MoS is agin it, as far as I can work out. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "London's reigning celebrity chef." Optional: reigning is not encyclopedic; perhaps "London's most celebrated chef"?
  • You have a point. Redrawn. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "the recently-founded Reform Club". Perhaps a brief explanation of what this was/did?
  • Good idea. I'll add a footnote. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Not a footnote, in the end, but a brief phrase in the body of the text. Tim riley talk 18:05, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Link entrée.
  • Really? All right. Done. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "During the Irish potato famine". Is it known when this took place?
  • Our article on the famine says from 1845 to 1852. I think the blue link suffices in the Soyer article, but will add the dates in brackets if you insist. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You will have me quoting MOS:NOFORCELINK at you.
I don't see how it could be thought to apply here, but to appease you I have added the starting date of the famine. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Books: Langley seems out of alphabetical order.
  • I'm only seventy-one: you can't expect me to have learned a firm grasp of alphabetical order yet. Rejigged. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "passed an Act authorising". Lower-case a.
  • Are you sure? I suppose 39 years as a civil servant and then a Crown employee have coloured my usage. I'd write "an act of treachery" but "an Act of Parliament". If the MoS says otherwise I'll comply, natch. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm sure. Every specialist, in whatever area, things that their important phrases should have leading italics. (Let us not speak of Military Persons' views.) Even if you were correct, a bare "the Act" would still be incorrect.
OK. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:41, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I look forward to it, and thanks for the comments so far. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "pro bono publico". A language template please.
  • the OED says it's an English phrase, and doesn't italicise it (unlike persona non grata) so I've removed the italics. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Soyer decided that each regiment". Now, "regiment" can mean two things in the UK, and a third, different, thing in the US. That being so, when your sources say "regiment", do they mean 'battalion'? (And yes, a (British) battalion would have a "regimental" cook. Don't ask.)
  • I'm quoting the sources, rather than interpreting them in a WP:OR way. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "He was then asked to design new kitchens at Wellington Barracks, which were opened in July 1858." To me "new kitchens" implies replacement kitchens, while "which were opened" suggests they weren't. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • They were new kitchens for an existing barracks, and were opened in 1858. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • And now made specific. Tim riley talk 21:26, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • IMHO the quantity of quotations falls the wrong side of MOS:QUOTE. ("While quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Using too many quotes is incompatible with an encyclopedic writing style ... It is generally recommended that content be written in Wikipedia editors' own words. Consider paraphrasing quotations into plain and concise text when appropriate".) Consider some judicious trimming and/or rephrasing in your own inimitable words. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • There are very few quotations other than from press reports, which must obviously, I think, be given verbatim. "The Daily Thing said it was frightfully good" doesn't seem to me very helpful to our readers. Which of the quotes would you rewrite, and how? Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Music of Mesopotamia

Nominator(s): GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 06:33, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This is my first time at FAC. I’ll be responsive to making changes during the process, and I'll also ping @Aza24 and @Furius. Thank you! GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 06:33, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Coordinator comments

  • As the nominator is a first time FACer, the article will require a spot check for source to text fidelity.
  • Hi GuineaPigC77, can I ask if you were/are being mentored per the FAC instructions? "Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination."

Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:12, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi @Gog the Mild, I don't have a formal mentor; it seems I made a mistake. I did read that statement (including the bold part), but took away from this conversation that it was appropriate to proceed without further involvement. I benefited from a lot of mentorship from Aza24 and Furius during the preparation of the article, but it seems my mistake is that the mentorship is supposed to be both formal and also FAC-specific. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 21:41, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's not obligatory, just strongly advised. Let's see how the nomination goes. Mentoring can definitely be informal, and does not need to be ongoing. Were they aware that you were aiming this article at FAC when they were advising you? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:50, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
We were discussing a GA goal at that time (summer / fall 2022). Since then, I haven't heard from them except for for this message. I followed Aza24's advice to proceed with the GA nomination and have pinged them a few times, but neither has participated on the talk page since mid-October. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 22:18, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Fair enough. Not a problem. FAC can be unexpectedly tough on first timers, and it helps to have a "native guide". But as I said above, let's see how it goes. In the end it's all about the article. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:43, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@GuineaPigC77: That's on me, I didn't think to check that it was your first FAC (which honestly should have occurred to me based on your questions). Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:50, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It would have been better if I had said so outright. I generally try to be upfront about my inexperience, but this is a case where I definitely should have highlighted it. I will do my best here. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 21:37, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@GuineaPigC77: Happy to recuse myself as a reviewer here to assist as mentor, and however else I can. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:09, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That would be wonderful, @Iazyges. I accept! Thanks so much for offering. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 00:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Driveby comment

Thank you for working so extensively on a top-level article about an ancient culture. I know all too well how difficult that is. This looks like a promising FA candidate, but I think its organization needs adjustment. "Background" is a normal section title in articles about events, but not on broad topics such as this, and well-developed articles shouldn't need "overview" sections, as the lead of the article is supposed to serve as its overview. I think each of the subsections of "overview" ("uses of music", "music education", and "musicians") can be broken out into a top-level section of its own. "Background" is more of a puzzle. The latter two subsections ("surviving works" and "surviving instruments") probably belong in a section titled "evidence", but I don't know what to do with the first section ("context"). Much of it is general information about Mesopotamian civilization that is unnecessary here, while most of the rest seems like it is summarizing information that is found later in the article, in which case it should probably be moved to the lead. A. Parrot (talk) 07:04, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks A. Parrot for your comments. Airship's mockup makes sense to me and seems to address some of your concerns. Regarding the context section, perhaps we keep the last 4 sentences of the current Context section (beginning with Much of what researchers know...) and incorporate it into the lead. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 17:02, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Phlsph7

I agree with A. Parrot that it looks promising and that something needs to be done about the sections "Background" and "Overview". For "Background", I don't think that we need the subsection "Context" since the reader can look up these details in the corresponding articles. Or keep only the details that are directly relevant to the music. The remaining section could be titled "Historical evidence" or "Surviving artifacts" and should probably be moved somewhere to the bottom of the article. The section "Overview" seems to discuss mostly the role of music in Mesopotamia society. What about renaming it to "Role in society" or something similar?

Would it make sense to have a comparison of the different Mesopotamian civilizations somewhere? For example, concerning the musical differences between Sumerian, Assyrian, Akkadian, and Babylonian civilizations? You are probably more knowledgeable about whether there are important general differences worth discussing.

I've spotted various minor issues with the prose:

  • The Mesopotamians had an elaborate system of music theory, and some level of music education.: remove comma after "theory"
  • later known known as Babylonia—where several large cities emerged: remove one "known"
  • Religion and writing help set the stage for a music culture in this region: use past tense for "help"
  • ancient city of Ugarit, modern day Syria, dating: add hyphen "modern-day"
  • divided into songs of varying length separated: use plural: "lengths"
  • but also because there was “no sweet-sounding musical instruments: replace "was" with "were"
  • The bull was then singed: is "singed" supposed to be "signed" or "sung"?
  • dance can be distinguished on wall reliefs, cylinder seals, and painted pottery, and depictions of musical instruments accompany them: remove "and" before "painted pottery". Or maybe reformulate the sentence: there are too many commas and "ands"
  • musicians in temples survive, and reveal that a large number: remove comma before "and"
  • necked instrument sitting at the back of boat in a musician's posture: add "a" before "boat"
  • they are instructions which tell a musician how he or she can change a sammû instrument's: replace "which" with "that"
  • A corpus of thousands of surviving clay tablets provide additional details about : replace "provide" with "provides"
  • time as similar instrument in Egypt, the nefer.: add "a" before "similar"
  • The text jumps between English variants. If you want to default to American English, you should change:
    • pictographic and ideographic stylisations would: "stylizations"
    • contains a catalogue of song titles organized: "catalog"
  • Most of the text uses Oxford commas but they are still missing at several locations (see WP:Oxford comma):
    • which includes artifacts, artistic depictions and written records
    • use in secular occasions included festivals, warfare and funerals
    • Nimrud, Khorsabad and Nineveh
    • Major cities of Sumer included Ur, Uruk, Larsa and Lagash
    • reading, writing, religion, the sciences, law and medicine
    • rattles, sistra, cymbals, bells and drums

Other observations:

  • WP:EARWIG shows no copyright violations
  • User:Headbomb/unreliable shows no unreliable sources
  • User:Evad37/duplinks-alt.js shows no duplicate wikilinks
  • There are no unreferenced paragraphs.
  • Some cases of WP:OVERCITE:
    • The "Hymn to Nikkal" (pictured) is considered to be the oldest surviving substantially complete written music in the world.[1][2][3][4]
    • is considered to be the oldest surviving substantially complete written music in the world.[1][2][3][4]
Thanks for your comments, Phlsph7. As for the bullet points first, I've implemented your suggested changes. The only difference: I used "singed" from the source. An alternative could be "superficially burned" or "seared". More replies coming. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 16:06, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Regarding WP:OVERCITE, I used extra citations here given that it's a hefty claim. But we could scale it back to the first two. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 17:13, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for fast response. The "singed" makes sense to me now. You can avoid WP:OVERCITE by bundling the citations, for example, using Template:Multiref2. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:18, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Regarding a comparison of civilizations. While the source articles sometimes have a narrower scope, many of the sources speak broadly about Mesopotamian music. It could be possible to separate them by piecing together the examples offered, but I would be concerned about OR here? Another concern is that there are so many peoples mentioned here that each section would be sparse. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 17:31, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'd be very hesitant about adding a comparison of civilizations if the sources don't do it. Given how much the different groups overlapped and how limited our evidence is, I'm not sure that it makes sense to separate them off as separate traditions to be compared. Furius (talk) 23:04, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've bundled the refs; feel free to revert, however. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:13, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My main reason for bringing up the idea was that these categories play a role in the general history of Mesopotamia. But there is no point in comparing them in the article if they play no important role in the academic literature on the music. Phlsph7 (talk) 06:42, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Phlsph7: Do you have any further concerns about the article? Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 06:23, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ah, I see the contents were reorganized in the meantime. It looks better like this. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Short source review

I made a short source review, see below. At two points, there were minor issues with the page numbers but otherwise it looks fine.

  • The song's words are written above the double line and the music notation is below.[2]: supported by Burkholder, Grout & Palisca 2014: "The words are written above the double line, the music below". This is page 8, not page 10.
  • In some depictions of religious festivals, musicians were accompanied by dancers, jugglers, and acrobats.[5]: supported by Collon 2003, p. 99.: "Musicians, dancers, jugglers and acrobats often accompanied religious festivals. An Old Babylonian terracotta disc..."
  • Enheduanna was simultaneously a princess, priestess, and poetess who wrote a cycle of hymns to the temples of Sumer and Akkad, including devotional hymns for the gods Sin and Inanna, the texts for which survive.[24]: supported by Burkholder, Grout & Palisca 2014, p. 7.: "The earliest composer known to us by name is Enheduanna (fl. ca. 2300 b.c.e.), an Akkadian high priestess at Ur, who composed hymns (songs to a god) to the moon god Nanna and moon goddess Inanna; their texts, but not her music, survive on cuneiform tablets."
  • She authored nin-me-sar-ra, a short (153 line) poem in which she may allude to her own songwriting at a critical moment in the work.[57]: supported by Hallo & van Dijk 1968, pp. 51–52.
  • While much is known about Mesopotamian instruments, musicologist Carl Engel points out that because the main depictions of musical instruments come from bas reliefs celebrating royal and religious events, it is likely that there are many instruments, perhaps popular ones, that scholars are unaware of.[61]: supported by Engel 1864, p. 28.:"MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS OF THE ASSYRIANS...The Assyrian bas-reliefs chiefly represent historical events, religions ceremonies, and royal entertain- ments. It is therefore very probable that the Assy- rians possessed several popular musical instruments which are not represented on these bas-reliefs..."
  • This was especially true of an instrument known as a balag, whose identity is disputed[68]
  • inform the reader whether the object in question is, for example, made of wood (𒄑, giš), is a person (𒇽, lú), or is a building (𒂍, é).[65]: supported by Bowen 2019, pp. 28–32. The reference only mentiones 28-9 but I think the additional pages are needed.
  • Strings may have been made with catgut, as was done by the Egyptians, or with silk.[105]: Engel 1864, p. 30.: "The strings were perhaps made of silk, like those which the Burmese use at the present time on their harps, or they may have been catgut, which was used by the ancient Egyptians, one of whose harps thus strung, as I have already mentioned, has been ex- humed."
  • Two surviving tablets give instructions for tuning string instruments. According to Sam Mirelman, these tablets are better thought of in terms of re-tuning rather than tuning:[115] (and the following quote): supported by Mirelman & Krispijn 2009, p. 43. Should our text mention Krispijn as well since both are the authors of this paper?
    Although in the source it appears the summation comes from O. R. Gurney; I've attributed it to him and cited it to his work. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:53, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • well as drums, sistra, and cymbals.[128]: supported by Aruz & Wallenfels 2003, p. 33.

Phlsph7 (talk) 15:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Phlsph7: Believe I have addressed all issues. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:53, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
These references look good now. There is currently a cite error message displayed at the bottom of the page. It was probably introduced somewhere in the process of fixing the references.
Fixed, needed a notelist for an added note. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 10:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I had a look at some of the publishers. The article cites a great variety of sources and many of them are by high-quality publishers, like Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, Yale University Press, and Brill Publishers. However, I spotted two publishers associated with self-publishing: Trafford Publishing (Dumbrill, Richard J. (2005). The archaeomusicology of the Ancient Near East) and Vantage Press (Polin, Claire C.J. (1954). Music of the Ancient Near East). Phlsph7 (talk) 10:03, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Phlsph7: Polin, Claire C.J. (1954) was "picked up" by academic presses later (presumably after the author realized Vantage was screwing them over); so I've adjusted the date and publisher; page numbers appear the same between versions. @GuineaPigC77: Dumbrill 2005 will need to be extricated from the article, and replaced as possible; they were never carried by a reliable press later on, unfortunately. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 10:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done. We lost a quote and some minor phrases, but I salvaged the Hurrian hymn composers and scribes names. Thanks for catching this. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 21:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Phlsph7: Sourcing should be good to go now. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 05:40, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The issues pointed out have been solved. I would tend to support the nomination but with two caveats. On the one hand, it needs to pass a more thorough source spot check. This one only had a look at 10 references. On the other hand, I'm not qualified to assess whether the treatment of the topic is comprehensive. So another reviewer would have to check whether this criterion is fulfilled. If someone could ping me when these points are fulfilled then I would take a final look. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by a455bcd9

Hi, two comments:

  • What's the period covered in the article? Should it be renamed "Music of Mesopotamia (period)" or "Music of Ancient Mesopotamia"? Because today's music of Mesopotamia includes modern music of Iraq (also known as the music of Mesopotamia).
  • There's no source (and legend) for File:N-Mesopotamia and Syria english.svg.

a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 10:41, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for your comments, a455bcd9.
GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 16:35, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Airship

First impressions look good. Agree with (a.) parrot above on the section organisation; I've mocked up something in my sandbox about how I would go about it. If I were implementing it, I would trim the context section, to try to keep it music-focused; remove the top-level background and overview sections, as they don't really convey anything, and merge the surviving instruments section into the general instruments section, just for simplicity. The rest is fairly self explanatory. Greatly looking forward to your response! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:24, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you, Airship, for your comments and mockup. It sounds like overall organization is definitely an issue, so if people like your mockup I can go ahead and restructure the article based on it. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 15:18, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm not sure that we need the section "Context" but the rest of the mock layout looks fine. I assume the content of the subsection "Surviving works" goes into the new section "Works of music". Phlsph7 (talk) 17:25, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think that it would be worth keeping "surviving instruments" as a separate sub-category of "instruments" (probably the final sub-category), because the vast majority of them come from the same cemetery. I also think that "surviving works" and "music theory" should be separate sections at the same level, since neither is obviously a sub-type of the other (but it makes sense for both of them to go after "instruments"). I agree about moving the final sentences of the "context" section, which deal specifically with music to the lead, and getting rid of the rest of the context section (actually, I think that material should be added to the lead of the History of Mesopotamia article, which is extraordinarily short). Furius (talk) 23:27, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I tweaked @AirshipJungleman29's outline based on these comments. I also moved the last 4 sentences from the Context section into the lead, and then removed Background and Context altogether. It is in my sandbox. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 10:06, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Your sandbox looks good. I'll leave you to deal with the current maelstrom, and come back with more comments later. Good luck. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:53, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Agreed. This is a better way to organize the contents and to focus on the essential information. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:05, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Okay great, I will make this change. I will address some of the other concerns first, in case others want to adjust the outline before I implement it. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 18:08, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I did the big picture shuffling of sections. I think this is more what people have in mind? Feel free to revert. Note that this edit removed the map, as it appeared in the background and context sections. If we still want to include the map, perhaps it could go in the influence section? GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 09:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Furius

I commented a little bit on this article at an earlier stage, but it's come a very long way since then and I think it is a really good piece of work now. I do have some comments, however, which I'll arrange by section. Mostly, they are very minor matters.

  • Surviving works:
  • We're missing an explicit statement about musical notation (aside from a brief comment in the caption up at the top of the article), which would build on the quotation from Dumbrill. How, broadly speaking does the system work? (this overlaps with the "musical theory" section, so would be a reason for the "surviving works" section to appear immediately before the "musical theory" section.
  • "an Akkadian language tablet" - does it have a name/number? If so it would be useful to include this (in main text or in the note).
  • This is only a suggestion: I think it would be better for the image of the Hurrian songs' tablet to appear in this section. That would open up the issue of what image should go at the top of the article, but I think either an artistic depiction of musicians or another angle of one of the Lyres of Ur could fill that gap.
  • Surviving instruments:
  • The text and image could match up better - the text emphasises the "Golden Lyre of Ur" & the "Bull Headed Lyre", while the image is of the "Great Golden Lyre / Queen's golden lyre" (can you doublecheck the name? If I'm understanding Lyres of Ur correctly, this image actually is of the Golden Lyre and the Queen's lyre is a separate object in the BM). Commons says that the image is partially a replica - it would be better to have an image of an actual artefact, but if that's not practical (I admit, this photo gives a really good idea of the shape of the thing), then the fact that it is a partial replica should be stated in the caption.
  • I don't think it is necessary to describe the "Bull Headed Lyre" as "well-known".
  • Uses of Music: Religion:
  • "Old Babylonian period" - good to give a date range (yes, user can click through, but they shouldn't have to break their flow like that).
  • "balag and shem" - should these words be italicised?
  • No one is playing Ninigizibara, correct? Might it be possible to state that a little more explicitly, if so?
  • Singed bull: I agree with the earlier comment that this is a bit confusing in context. Is the bull alive for this?
  • The second paragraph somewhat gives the impression that all religious songs were laments. Is that right? Elsewhere in the article "hymns" are mentioned.
  • Uses of Music: Secular
  • The seal in the Louvre needs a citation. Ideally that citation would include its inv. number and a link, if it is included in the Louvre's online catalogue. It is a pity that we don't have an image.
  • Were "festivals" a secular context?
  • "they both use Emesal" is confusing because a number of pairs have been mentioned in preceding sentence. Clarify, e.g. "both laments and love songs use"
  • Elam-Anían should be linked.
  • I wonder whether a bit more could be said on the use of music in the army - what was their role exactly? If the section said a little more on this topic, it would also be possible to use File:Bas_relief_Ninive_musiciens_AO_19908.jpg or File:Exhibition_I_am_Ashurbanipal_king_of_the_world,_king_of_Assyria,_British_Museum_(45973108151).jpg as an image for this section.
  • Music education
  • "Professional musicians were first... and then became eligible..."
  • Unlink "numerous settings" - not helpful.
  • " indicate that choral training occurred by 3000 BCE" -> " indicate that by 3000 BCE choral training was occurring". Perhaps too many "which"s in this sentence
  • "Some religious practices were highly specific in teaching music." - is it possible to be more specific? How does a practice teach?
  • "With Ancient Egypt" --> "Along with".
  • Need to be consistent between "edubas" & "edubbas"
  • Is there a date for the school in Mari?
  • Musicians
  • "Gala" is lower case in this section, but was capitalised in the "uses of Music" section. It is a bit awkward that information on the Gala is split between these two sections and I'd suggest moving the material on the instruments played by Gala, at least, to here.
  • "regarded highly" --> "highly regarded"
  • Repetition of "the king kept" is a little awkward. Add links for "Nineveh" "Gilgamesh" and "Assyrian army" (piped, to Military history of the Neo-Assyrian Empire). "sometimes accompanied the king to his grave" - I'd be more explicit about this. Gabbay ought to have a first name.
  • Link Enheduanna in image caption as well as main text. "Ur III" is perhaps confusing and it might be better to stick with "Third Dynasty of Ur".
  • "gala (or gala-mah)" - this is the same as the gala from the previous section? Should gala-mah be mentioned there? "He and his family-owned" remove hyphen?
  • " nin-me-sar-ra": What is this? Do we have any information on whether Enheduanna wrote the music as well as the lyrics for her hymns? If not, that might be worth stating.

Throughout, I think the article could be a little more explicit about whether terms are in Sumerian or Akkadian (e.g. "Gala" is Sumerian, but the article never actually says this; "Eduba" is Sumerian, etc). Obviously, one can't do this for every list of instruments, but for key terms, it seems worth doing. The night is no longer young, so I will stop here for now and look at the rest of the text later (possibly not for a few days, sorry!) 00:55, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments, Furius. As I implement them, I'll leave a few notes. Starting with Uses of Music: Religion.

  • Dates added
  • Instrument names italicized per source
  • Ninigizibara. I'm cautious about making any statement about who played the instrument. Bowen states that the balag "was used by the Gala-priest in the performance of Emesal prayers", but later says "the Gala-priest would recite or sing the prayer, often accompanied by instruments and other singers." The issue is further complicated by their religious belief that it played itself. (Since it is the proper name of an instrument-god, I removed the "the" in front of it, and did the same in the lead.)
  • Singed bull. I changed the sentence to “Various parts of the bull were burned with a torch during the ritual.” The source says “...More offerings were made and perfumes burnt. A torch was lighted and the bull was singed. Twelve linen cloths...” and, at the end of a lengthier description, it says, “The bull was then slain, its heart burnt, and the body skinned, wrapped in a red cloth.”
  • Hymns and laments. I generally see these words used interchangeably in this context. Bowen says "The intercessions of the Gala-priest generally took the shape of sung laments..." He also refers to Emesal prayers as "hymnic liturgies".

More replies coming. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 07:13, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Surviving works:
  • How the notation works. I think the best answer is we don’t know. West (1994) says “On many important points there is a consensus. But on others, including the interpretation of the notation, widely divergent positions have been taken up.” And goes on to say “At present we have four rival decipherments of the notation, each yielding entirely different results.” The closest our article gets to explaining any notation is under Music theory where it says “a tablet from Ugarit lists musical interval names along with two numbers, presumably referring to the two strings plucked”, sourced to Güterbock 1970.
  • I added the tablet number per Kilmer 1971
GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 07:58, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • To clarify on this point, I mean simply: how is it written? Do the Hurrian songs use cuneiform characters, separate symbols, or something else? Did they write these symbols in line with the lyrics or in a separate section? Agreed that this overlaps with music theory and could go there, but that section seems much more, well, theoretical. Furius (talk) 12:27, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Thanks for clarifying. I added some material to the discussion of the Hurrian Hymns that addresses these questions, does that work better? GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 08:30, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Music education
  • I implemented these changes. I re-phrased a few things in the first paragraph, and removed the awkward sentence in which a practice teaches, which seems unnecessary.
  • Working on a date for Mari.
GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 11:17, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Implemented the re-phrases and wiki links
  • I removed "gala-mah". The source seems to imply that the gala-mah was in charge of other galas, but does not say so explicitly; later it says they may be synonyms.
  • nin-me-sar-ra. I added that it is a short poem written by Enheduanna, and also added a topical detail that she may have referred to her own songwriting or lyrics. I have yet to see anyone say that Enheduanna wrote the music, just the text for the hymns. For example, Hallo and van Dijk don't mention any melodies in their chapter on her "Life and Work".
GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 08:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Surviving instruments
  • Regarding the lyre names. That appears to be correct. According to Woolley 1934, it is called the “gold lyre”. It is a partial reconstruction and is the subject of the looting quote in the body. I adjusted the text and caption. There is much variation in the literature with respect to the names of these lyres, so to be safe I think it makes sense to use the name Woolley gave to it? I think the Lyres of Ur article is misleading in that it jumps between different names from the various sources. I agree that this image shows the shape of it well, and I’d favor it over an image of the original, which is difficult to make out.
  • removed “well-known”
GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 12:33, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The festivals Collon refers to are in a religious context; I moved it up
  • I re-worked the ambiguous phrase
  • Military. I added a paragraph. It includes a long quote from Marten 1925, which I think illustrates the main idea nicely, does this fit? The images you suggest look great, especially the first one, which has fine details and shows the musicians “squaring off”. If that image is usable I think it would fit well.
GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 03:36, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
They don't write scholarship like that any more! I'm pretty sure that the File:Bas_relief_Ninive_musiciens_AO_19908.jpg is fine to use, but Nikkimaria seems more knowledgeable than I am on this. Furius (talk) 19:06, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Furius: It appears uploader legitimately took the picture, so their copyright is fine, I've added the copyright for the relief itself. It will be fine for use. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:12, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Further comments

As in the first half, the standard is generally very high and most of the comments below are pedantic little issues. I'm sure I'm wrong on some points, too.

Instruments: Divinity
  • "Clear evidence for the divination" -> "Clear evidence for the divinity"
  • "The use of determinatives" --> "Determinatives" & I'd switch the semicolon for a period at the end of the sentence.
  • "intended recipients" feels a little jargonish to me. I think the point of the phrase is that the offerings given were intended for the instrument itself (and not for some god or something), but one might take it to mean "intended but not actualised"...
  • italicise "balag"?
  • Gudea: it is odd that the two sentences on Gudea have become separated and that it is the second of these sentences that explains who/when/where Gudea was.
  • "Several balags are known to have been minor gods to the sun-god Utu" - something a little off here. "associated with" or "connected to"?
  • "suggesting that each instrument was" -> "... these instruments were" (seems strange to assume every instrument had this role, rather than just those with the king's name in them)
  • Add a gloss for "Ninigizibara", e.g. "[i.e. a named musical instrument]"
  • This sub-section sits somewhat awkwardly in the "Instruments" section, which is otherwise about types of instrument. I'm not sure if there is an easy solution to that - and "awkwardness" is subjective, anyway. I had thought about moving it to the "uses of music: religion" section, but it's not exactly about "use", either. Maybe, if this sub-section came at the end of the "instruments" section?
Instruments: Voice
  • "will never be known" seems a little too strong. But maybe so.
  • "contemporary" is ambiguous - does it mean contemporary with the ancient Mesopotamians, with van der Merwe, or with the reader?
  • Link for "dynamic changes"? I'm not sure why "shake" is used instead of "trill" and it comes as a bit of a surprise to click on "graces" and be delivered to tempo, which doesn't mention that term. (perhaps a wiktionary link would be better?)
  • muse --> goddess ? (since "muse" has Greek mythological baggage)
Instruments: Percussive
  • "to produce the rattling sound when shook" -> "that produced the rattling sound when shaken" (this might be a dialectal difference...)
  • "Cymbals were small and massive" --> "Cymbals could be small or massive"
  • "4 types" --> "four types"
  • "rather than sticks" --> "rather than with sticks"
  • The Santur instrument mentioned in the picture is not discussed in text (is it a percussion instrument or a stringed instrument?)
Instruments: Wind
  • Link "Hittites"
  • "although some" --> "and some"; "The silver pipes represent" --> "These silver pipes are"; "500" --> "five hundred"; "flutist" --> "flautist" or "flute-player"
  • The word "flute" - here it would probably be good to include the Sumerian word. The reference to tablet viii perhaps goes into a footnote?
  • Link "cylinder seal" and "Nimrud"
Instruments: String
  • Link "catgut" (and "silk"?); perhaps "mother of pearl" (and "lapis lazuli" at first mention in the Surviving instruments section?)
  • "a bull-headed lyre is in the bass register" --> "... would be in..." (and for the rest of the sentence).
  • "Hittites" and "cylinder seal" are linked here for the first time, although they have already been mentioned. It's probably best to wait until the order of sections has been fully arranged and then do a thorough check on terms like these.
  • If any of these depictions of lyre-players are on the museums' online catalogues, it might be nice to link to them.
  • Gloss "sammû" (or mention and define the term somewhere in the preceding discussion).
  • I think most of the discussion of tuning here would go better in the next section. The names of the strings could stay here, but even that fits better with the discussion of cyclic musical theory in the next section.
Music theory
  • Is a link possible for "diatonic" and "tritone"?
  • Is a bit more explanation of "cyclic theory of music" possible?
  • "would later be called Pythagorean" - I think it would be good to have a link here and a phrasing that makes clearer who called it that and when. It should be obvious that something called Pythagorean is Greek, but actually readers of this article might be primarily musicians or interested in Near Eastern history, so we shouldn't presume familiarity with Greek history if we can help it.
  • italicise the names of the scales and link the Greek names (e.g. Dorian mode).
  • The statement in paragraph 3 that the Mesopotamians used a Lydian scale (implicitly: and only that) and the statement in paragraph 4 that they had a number of scales fit together awkwardly.
  • Give Duchesne-Guillemin's first name / initial. Perhaps it is unavoidable, since this is a technical subject, but I have no idea what these four rules mean. Anything that can be done to spell them out further, or to provide links to other places in WP where the concepts are discussed more thoroughly, would be good.
  • In the "Influence" section the article refers to numerology mysticism in relation to the Greeks, but there is no reference in the article as it stands to the role of numerology in Mesopotamia itself. I think that probably belongs in this section - this would also help counteract the impression currently given in this section that Mesopotamian musical theory was rational and mathematical in exactly the same way as modern music theory.
  • Bahrain - include a link to Dilmun; I don't think it makes sense to include a link to ancient history at this point.
  • The term sinnitu should appear in the Instruments section, not (at least not just) here.
  • It would be good to double-check whether "nefer" actually is Egyptian for "lute". My understanding was that this was an outdated interpretation of the hieroglyph "nefer" (beautiful), now considered to be a depiction of a trachea, not a musical instrument.
  • Is it right to say that the sinnitu has parallels with the Sumerian pan-tur? Shouldn't they be the same thing? "Pandoura" is probably the same thing, also: and is a Roman-period term that appears first in Near Eastern sources, so saying "the Greek pandoura" is a bit like saying "the English gamelan". I guess what these comments are getting at is that this sentence compresses a very wide range of influences over a very broad swathe of time.
  • Why is the image of the lute-player here?
  • Reference to Pythagoras perhaps belongs in the Greek sub-section (and I feel nervous about attributing interest specifically to Pythagoras rather than the Pythagoreans, given how heavily what we are told about him is shaped by later periods).
  • Greek sub-section: I'm not sure the reference to sacrifices to instruments is germane here; it's not a typical feature of Greek religion. In general, I'm nervous about how heavily this rests on Franklin but this seems to be a feature of the current scholarly landscape - there is an article on the Mesopotamian influence on Greek music in the new A Companion to Ancient Greek and Roman Music (2020), edited by Tosca A. C. Lynch & Eleonora Rocconi... also by Franklin (Nevertheless, worth a look and a citation, since things may have changed in 5 years).
  • Persia sub-section: I'd cut the first sentence, which isn't really relevant. "they're" --> "Mesopotamia and Persia were."
  • I'd switch the order of the Persia and Greece sub-sections (since the connection with Persia is closer and starts earlier) and add {{main|Ancient Greek music}} and {{main|Music_of_Iran#Earliest_records}}.
  • Three bigger thoughts: (1) It surprises me a bit that there's not enough scholarship for a sub-section on the relationship with Egyptian music, as the other major neighbour; (2) This section is very focussed on the influence of Mesopotamian music on other cultures - is there really no evidence for the influence of these (and other cultures) on Mesopotamian music? (3) Is it possible to say anything about the influence of Mesopotamian music on Arab music? In asking this question, I am thinking both of any direct influence (e.g., instruments that are still played today) and of attempts by modern Arabs/Iraqis to draw on Mesopotamian musical traditions (i.e. the sort of thing that classicists call reception studies). With these issues, it may be that these reflect real gaps in scholarship, in which case nothing can be done, of course.
End Matter: This looks fine. Maybe add a "see also" section with links to e.g. Parthian music, History of Mesopotamia, Ancient Mesopotamian religion. Furius (talk) 23:40, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you Furius for your additional comments.
  • I agree that the discussion of tuning is better suited in the Music theory section. I moved it there and also adjusting the surrounding text a bit.
GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 05:10, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Most re-phrases and additional wiki links are done. I plan to do a thorough review of the links.
  • Location of the Divinity of instruments section. I think moving it lower in the Instruments section would work, either immediately before or after the Surviving instruments section? No strong opinion.
  • Heptatonic, diatonic, Lydian scale. I think we could lose the Lydian - it was only mentioned because it points to the example in the accompanying image. In the caption, we can say that Lydian is an example of a heptatonic scale. We can also improve the image by including audio, as is done in the Lydian scale depicted in Heptatonic scale.
  • Pythagorean tuning. I added a wiki link perhaps that works? I'm hesitant to state that Duchesne-Guillemin 1984 "called it" that because it doesn't seem to be that author's original idea, but I could be wrong.
GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 22:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well done. I really like the idea of including audio - I always forget that that's a possibility.
Pythagorean: I meant something like "this is the tuning procedure known to the Greeks as Pythagorean" or whatever. My point is that the current phrasing ("this tuning procedure would later be called Pythagorean, although the Babylonians had worked out the heptatonic system many centuries before Greece") expects the reader to make the link between "later" and "before Greece". It's not the hardest logical leap in the world, but the music theory section is the most technically complicated in the article, so wherever it is possible to clearly spell things out, it would be good to do so. Furius (talk) 11:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest scaling up the sheet music and trade routes
  • Suggest adding alt text
  • Captions need editing for style
  • File:Hurrian_Hymn.jpg: what's the copyright status of the photo?
    @GuineaPigC77: Unfortunately I don't think this one is actually PD for the image itself; the credit is to "RS15.30. Photographs by Françoise Ernst-Pradal, French Archaeological Mission to Ras Shamra-Ugarit"; which appears to be published (for the first time?) in 2017. There is a website that claims courtesy was extended, so I'll see if I can't reach out to her and ask for permission to use it on Wikipedia via OTRS. If not, I think we would struggle to justify a non-free image being used, as although it's a good example, there are free equivalents. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    I've tracked down an email and attempted to contact her, hopefully, she will grant permission. If not, we will have to remove it (and indeed delete it from Commons), I believe. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:38, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Thanks so much, @Iazyges. It would be too bad, but Furius prefers a different lead image, and I do think others could work well there. Thanks for reaching out to her. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 04:14, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:N-Mesopotamia_and_Syria_english.svg is tagged as lacking datasource
    Can perhaps be replaced by a map from SVG near east map series by dates, based on whichever date is most preferable. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 02:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @GuineaPigC77: for the map replacement, we have options from 2600 BC to 100 BC (interval of 100 years between), do you have a particular preference? Most of the older maps are sourceless or otherwise poor quality, and about an hour of digging didn't find better options unless we want to try our luck getting one commissioned. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 13:06, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @Iazyges Thank you. Some of our best examples come from the Ur III period and the OB period. What about 2100 BCE. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 18:38, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @GuineaPigC77: Done; are there any prose issues that I should be involved in? It appears you have them well in hand. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @Iazyges Thank you. So far so good. The trickiest concern to address from Furius has been regarding the names and images of the lyres. The Lyres of Ur article is problematic and probably misleading. I'll comment more above, but I see this as the thorniest item at the moment. But overall yes, all the concerns appear doable, so I'm just chugging through. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 22:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Once the context section is cut back as advised by other editors above, I'm not convinced that a map of Mesopotamia will be required. File:Ancient_Near_East_2100BC.svg is well-cited, but isn't really focussed on Mesopotamia and (in my subjective opinion) is not terribly attractive. Furius (talk) 01:03, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Hurrian_Hymn_6_interpreted_by_Raoul_Vitale.png needs a tag for the original work, and what is the basis of this interpretation?
  • File:The_Queen's_gold_lyre_from_the_Royal_Cemetery_at_Ur._C._2500_BCE._Iraq_Museum.jpg needs a US tag. Ditto File:God_Ea,_also_Enki,_holding_a_cup_with_overflowing_water._From_Iraq._Pergamon_Museum.jpg, File:Plaque_with_male_musician_playing_a_harp,_Ischali,_baked_clay_-_Oriental_Institute_Museum,_University_of_Chicago_-_DSC07334.JPG, File:Ishtar_goddess.jpg
  • File:LIstofMusicIms2340.jpg: source link is dead. Ditto File:Santur_babylon2.jpg
  • File:Bull's_head_ornament_for_a_lyre_MET_DP260070_(cropped).jpg needs a tag for the original work. Ditto File:Plaque_with_musician_playing_a_lute,_Ischali,_Isin-Larsa_period,_2000-1600_BC,_baked_clay_-_Oriental_Institute_Museum,_University_of_Chicago_-_DSC07344.JPG, File:Ishtar_Gate.gif, File:Chaldean_flag.svg. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:47, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

William D. Mullins

Nominator(s): Curbon7 (talk) 20:09, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

My first FAC. This article is about a minor league baseball pitcher-turned-state legislator who rose to prominence as an honest person in a legislature historically known for its corruption. Big advocate for Western Massachusetts. This subject came to my attention as he is the namesake of the Mullins Center. Curbon7 (talk) 20:09, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Coordinator comments

  • As the nominator is a first time FACer, the article will require a spot check for source to text fidelity.
  • Hi Curbon7, can I ask if you were/are being mentored per the FAC instructions? "Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination."

Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:02, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I was not mentored. In retrospect, I would've benefited from discussing the image copyrights with Nikkimaria prior. Curbon7 (talk) 12:49, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • Use of 's after a word ending in s seems inconsistent, but I am not sure what is standard in US English for a singular noun which ends in s. You have "one of Western Massachusetts' most" but later you have "Mullins's" and "the Senators's" (the last of which is definitely wrong BTW - with a plural noun ending in s it is always s' and never s's)
See below.
  • "Mullin's professional debut" should be either "Mullins's professional debut" or "Mullins' professional debut" depending on the resolution of the above point but definitely not what is there at the moment
  • "Originally run out of rented room" should be either "Originally run out of rented rooms" or "Originally run out of a rented room" depending how many rooms were involved
  • "without parent consent" => "without parental consent"
  • "with the courthouse serving as way to" => "with the courthouse serving as a way to"
  • "Mullins was a lifelong smoker, having smoked from the age of 17 until quitting in 1984" - not really lifelong, if he didn't start till he was 17 and stopped two years before he died. Maybe just say "a longtime smoker"
  • That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:56, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    For the apostrophes, I was following MOS:POSS for singular nouns, which states that "including proper names and words ending in s, add 's". Regardless, I re-jigged some sentences and pronoun-ed out to remove most instances of "Mullins's" as it was quite awkward in most instances, per that last sentence in "Singular nouns". I appreciate the review :)! Curbon7 (talk) 23:08, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support on prose -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:03, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:William_D._Mullins.png: the given fair-use tag is not appropriate for the proposed use of this image here. Normally I'd suggest {{non-free biog-pic}}, but in this case we do have a free image of the person so I'm not sure that is justified either. Have you verified that the publication included a copyright notice and whether the copyright was renewed?
  • File:Pierce_Mullins_DeFilippi_political_cartoon.png also has the incorrect fair-use tag, and if it's to be included the FUR will need to be strengthened

In passing I'd also note that the article would benefit from a thorough edit for MOS compliance - I fixed a few issues but more work is needed. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:49, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Nikkimaria, Alt text has been added. For File:William_D._Mullins.png, I looked into the copyright databases and found no initial notice or renewal (following [1]); I would also figure this one meets NFCC#8 as the only image to show him as an athlete with no free alternative. I've gone ahead and removed and G7'd File:Pierce_Mullins_DeFilippi_political_cartoon.png, as it was definitely pushing the limit and it isn't really necessary. Curbon7 (talk) 13:38, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • On the athlete image, my question was more, are we sure this is non-free? Can we confirm the original publication had no notice included? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:15, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Ok got it, sorry for the delay. There does appear to have been a notice included in the original, but it was not renewed. Curbon7 (talk) 12:38, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Nikkimaria, After checking once more to be sure, yes the license was not renewed, so {{PD-US-not renewed}} does apply here. I have moved the image over to Commons with the proper licensing now. Thank you for your help! Face-smile.svg Curbon7 (talk) 20:58, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

1920–21 Gillingham F.C. season

Nominator(s): ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:32, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

For my 20th nomination of a season in the history of my beloved Gillingham F.C. I've gone for the one that started in '20. Seemed apt :-) Comments as ever will be most gratefully received and swiftly acted upon! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:32, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

Recusing to review.

  • "he accepted another job before the season had started." Suggest deleting "had".
  • " Gillingham's results in their first season". Maybe "in" → 'during'?
  • Infobox: the MoS, footnote a, says "Wikipedia uses sentence case for ... entries in infoboxes ...". So maybe an A for "approx"?
  • " had played in the Southern League since the competition's formation". Is a league a competition?
  • "Annual General Meeting". Why the upper case initials?
  • "AGM". Should be in brackets after the first mention of the full term.
  • ' "pro tem"'. Why the quote marks? Why the italics? Why the, mostly, US English phrase. Maybe just 'temporarily'?
  • "per week and was assisted by Jim Kennedy as trainer." Suggest "and" → 'who'.
    • I don't believe that "He was replaced by John McMillan, who was paid a wage of £7 per week who was assisted by Jim Kennedy as trainer." would be grammatically correct..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:51, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:06, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Gog the Mild: - thanks. All the above addressed other than where noted -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:51, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "signed a large number of new players". Is the actual number known?
  • "largest recorded attendance of the entire season". Is "entire" necessary?
    • That's to make it clear that it was not merely the largest of the season up to that point -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:12, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "the Dispatch's reporter noting"; "the correspondent for the Daily Telegraph stated". Could the tense be standardised?
  • "both Branfield and Robertson were missing from the team for the only time during the season." The only time they were both missing?
  • " he was dropped again. Gillingham again played". Perhaps avoid "again" twice in three words?

Gog the Mild (talk) 14:04, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Gog the Mild: - thanks. All the above addressed other than where noted -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:12, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Early skyscrapers

Nominator(s): – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 20:26, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about skyscrapers built before World War II, and especially before the Great Depression. These were primarily focused in New York and Chicago, but by the interwar period had spread to many other cities and countries. Although tall structures have existed since the 3rd millennium BC (c.f. the Great Pyramid of Giza), skyscrapers as we know them were not technically feasible prior to the late 19th century, and what better places than the major cities of America to experiment with new architectural forms?

For full disclosure, I did not write the large portion of this article; that honor goes to Hchc2009, who is regrettably no longer active on Wikipedia but who gave his blessing to this FAC. Since Hchc wrote almost 90 percent of this article, I do not intend to claim WikiCup points from this nom, nor do I think anyone else should. I did, however, make some minor cleanups to this article (duplink removal, consistency in AmEng, etc.), and I believe this article passes the criteria on prose (pending minor copyediting, which can be done as seen fit rather than clog up the review). I am also pinging Epicgenius, who I am quite surprised also did not write (much of) this article but to whom this should be of great interest. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 20:26, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Don't use fixed px size
    • Fixed
  • Suggest adding alt text
    • Done
  • File:Terminal_Tower_ceiling.jpg: what is the copyright status of the interior design?
    • Irrelevant, as the US has freedom of panorama for lobbies, especially in pre-1990 buildings.
      • The description identifies the design as a mural - is that not correct? Murals are not 3D. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:09, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
        • If it is referring to the murals in the window arches (which I believe it is), those qualify as de minimis IMO, since the focus is on the ceiling (which is 3D/building/FoP) and I needed to expressly look at the arches to see where these "murals", which are in any event angled and out of focus, were. However, even without such protection, they were installed before 1978 and don't appear to have a copyright notice attached to them, so they should be fine. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 03:22, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Old_timer_structural_worker2.jpg: why is this believed to be a US government work?
    • It is in the records of the Works Projects Administration, and in government archives.
  • File:Home_Insurance_Building.JPG: when was this first published? Ditto File:Newspaper_Row,_1906.JPG
    • For the Home Insurance Building, it appears that it wasn't published until 1931; I've removed the image for now, and referred the matter to Commons. For Newspaper Row, the site says that the NYT published it in 1906, but clicking on the link given gives me a dead link and the Internet Archive is of no help, so I have no choice but to take it at its word.
      • What site says it was published in 1906, as opposed to created? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:09, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
        • Looking through NYT archives from 1905 to 1908 I can't see it published, so for now I've replaced it with a surer picture of the Potter Building in the area. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 03:22, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Chicago_Masonic_Temple_Building.jpg: if the author is known, how do we know they died over 70 years ago? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:53, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • It was said to be a 1909 postcard of the MTB; taking that at its word, the tag has been updated. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 03:04, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nom pinging

Perhaps due to the length and scope breadth of this article, this hasn't attracted an especial lot of attention. I'll ping some FAC buddies/WikiProject Skyscrapers contributors/WikiCup participants here: @FrB.TG, Wehwalt, Trainsandotherthings, Steelkamp, Kusma, Lee Vilenski, SounderBruce, MelbourneStar, and CookieMonster755:, in addition to repinging @Epicgenius:. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 02:35, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I can't make any promises, but I will keep this on my radar. It depends on how busy I am the next few weeks. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 02:44, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I will review this after finishing a review of 8th Missouri Infantry Regiment (Confederate). Steelkamp (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I will review this soon. FrB.TG (talk) 12:15, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My time's short due to travel but I'll see if I can get in a review.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:08, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for the ping. I also have very little time over the next few weeks due to real-life commitments. However, I can also leave some comments. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:11, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


OK, I'll do some non-expert reviewing. I'll look in detail later, just first impression:

  • There may be a structural/comprehensiveness issue in the body: we seem to get dropped right in the middle of 19th century New York. Shouldn't we first discuss what the term "skyscraper" means and what "early" means in the context? Which tall buildings are skyscrapers? See also Skyscraper#Definition. You do discuss the term later, but that is after more than a screenful of extensive use. This could also help with clarifying which European tall buildings (if any) should be discussed in the context (why are the 10+ storey buildings in Edinburgh Old Town not "skyscrapers"? What about Queen Anne's Mansions or the Royal Liver Building?).
  • In a similar direction, it would be good to state again at the beginning of the body that this is very much a New York and Chicago topic.
  • Is the definition of "early"="before the end of World War II" universally accepted? (The Early Chicago Skyscrapers are all from the 19th century)
  • Commercial and social drivers: I'm wondering whether this isn't a bit long (perhaps because I'm waiting for the article to get to the point and start building skyscrapers).
  • "Most buildings adopted the Italian Renaissance inspired palazzo-style of architecture popular in England, and rose no more than five or six stories." perhaps this would read better with less active buildings.
  • Technological developments: "French engineers experimented" as I read the source, this is Hippolyte Fontaine (fr:Hippolyte Fontaine also mentions his engineering works on the Docks de Saint-Ouen [fr]). What are the "engineering journals"? (A cursory glance suggests the titles cited are books, but I could be wrong).
  • "Augustin-Jean Fresnel" source says it was his brother Léonor.
  • Fireproofing: Who are the "French engineers"? Peter B. Wight seems to be mentioned in this context on p. 27 of the source, not p. 24

More later! —Kusma (talk) 23:01, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • @Kusma: As said earlier, someone else wrote this article, so I don't have the deepest expertise on the subject matter or sourcing that I would for one of "my own" FACs. That said, I have added a section on pre-19th century tall structures and how the "skyscrapers" of the 19th century fit into them, and I'll address your other concerns in the coming weeks. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 00:49, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • That helps. For the history of the word, the source just refers to the OED, which would IMO be better to (also) cite directly. Do you have a citation for "Where the "skyscraper" fits into this history is somewhat nebulous."?
    • I do not, I just thought it would be a good-sounding transition. I've decided that it's not necessary, though. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 00:10, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • (Further down, but I don't want to forget to mention this): The Seven Sisters are seven buildings, not one. The main building of Moscow State University reminded me of the Cathedral of Learning, which used to be the world's tallest educational building and fits into the time covered by the article. I'm not an expert, though, so I have no idea what examples should be included.

And again, more later. —Kusma (talk) 22:36, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • More sourcing issues. "The Home Insurance Building in Chicago, opened in 1885, is, however, most often labeled the first skyscraper because of its innovative use of structural steel in a metal frame design" snippet says something like this is on Schleier 1986 p. 5, but what is the relevance of Condit p. 115?
  • Why is the Witte Huis a skyscraper? The whole "foreign skyscrapers" bit is lacking citations.
  • "The design won critical acclaim within the American architectural profession." citation seems off by a page?
  • "Architect Cass Gilbert designs included" grammar.
  • Throughout the article, "the war" and similar expressions sometimes mean WW1, sometimes WW2.
  • "Lewis Hine, employed to record the building of the Empire State Building, portrayed the skyscraper construction teams as courageous heroes, creating a genre of photography that continued up until 1941" do you mean "until the US entered WW2" or is there something else about 1941 here? Is there a name for the genre?
  • "Skyscraper development paused during the years of World War II. Once development began again in the 1950s and 1960s, the skyscraper entered a different phase of development, usually called the international or modern period." source?
  • "Critical discussion of early skyscrapers began from the 1880s onwards in the architectural community and continued across a growing cultural and academic community in the inter-war period. " Is this in the source cited? And does it say very much other than that discussion of skyscrapers is as old as skyscrapers?

Overall an interesting article, but I am unsure whether I can properly judge it for comprehensiveness. We see in-depth discussion of Chicago and New York (at various times in history) while the rest of the world comes up only as examples that are not discussed in much detail; it is hard for me to tell whether this is appropriate. I am also worried by the often somewhat imprecise citations (and some uncited bits) and would recommend checking the sourcing thoroughly. I may comment more but I will leave the article to others for the moment. —Kusma (talk) 23:22, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Nominator(s): Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 20:10, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about the largest marsupial ever, and the first Australian fossil mammal ever described, an elephantine wombat which lumbered across the continent until 40,000 years ago. This would be only the 3rd marsupial FA, after Tasmanian tiger and Tasmanian devil, and the 1st prehistoric marsupial Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 20:10, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Tammar wallaby and Koala are also FAs. LittleJerry (talk) 20:39, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:Evolution_in_the_past_(Plate_55)_BHL21155651.jpg: what is the author's date of death?
1951 Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 17:02, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Suggest adding full name and dates to description. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:26, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
done Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 01:56, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Diprotodon_optatum_(2).jpg: what sources support this illustration?
it was reviewed at WP:PALEOART Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 17:02, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Link? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:26, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hm, looks like it hasn't, I've added it now and I'll remove the image from the article in the meantime Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 20:16, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Diprotodon_molars.jpg: what is the author's date of death? Ditto File:Diprotodon_femur_interior.jpg, File:Diprotodon_femur_exterior.jpg
1892 Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 17:02, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Suggest adding dates to description. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:26, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
done Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 01:56, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Extinct_monsters_and_creatures_of_other_days_(cropped).jpg: where is that licensing coming from?
It's the cropped version of File:Extinct monsters and creatures of other days (6288822378).jpg Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 17:02, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That version has conflicting information. To what does the CC license apply, versus the PD status? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:26, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
it looks like it first came to Commons via Flickr (hence the CC) but the image itself comes from a publication which has entered PD Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 01:49, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Fire-stick-_Lycett.webp: when and where was this first published?
Australia, 1820, in an album Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 17:02, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Was the album legally published? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:26, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Would PD-1996 work better? Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 01:49, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Bunyip_1890_(cropped).jpg: which of the Australian rationales is believed to apply, and what is the status of this work in the US? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:44, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"the creator [J. Mcfarlane] died before 1 January 1955" according to he died in 1936; added pd-US-expired Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 17:02, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Badge Man

Nominator(s): ~ HAL333 20:19, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Of the myriad figures spotted in Dealey Plaza during the assassination of John F. Kennedy —the Babushka Lady, the black dog man, the three tramps, and the umbrella man (we almost had Captain Kirk and Spock as well)—the Badge Man may be the least bizarre. With the 60th anniversary of the JFK assassination coming later this year, this could be the first of a small series of relevant articles. Cheers, ~ HAL333 20:19, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "with the Badge Man often firing the fatal head shot from the grassy knoll" - if he did exist and fire a fatal shot, he only did it once, so maybe "with the Badge Man often said to have fired the fatal head shot from the grassy knoll" would be better.....?
  • "which feature's White's work" - first comma should not be there
  • "Bugliosi also emphasized that Mack has stated the he" => "Bugliosi also emphasized that Mack has stated that he"
  • That's all I got :-) Thanks for an interesting read. As a Brit I didn't know about any of this (although I obviously knew that there are conspiracy theories about the assassination, I didn't know anything about all the various mystery people in the area.....) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:06, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
All addressed. Yeah, the Kennedy assassination is absolutely tantalizing. ~ HAL333 22:18, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Ian

Recusing coord duties to review... As it happens I saw The Men Who Killed Kennedy on its Australian premiere, so quite familiar with this "character". I look forward to going over this in due course... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:30, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Copyedited so let me know if you feel I've misunderstood or -- as would be entirely appropriate in the JFK assassination area -- misrepresented anything.
  • Not really anything else to add re. prose aside from the tweak SC proposes below with which I've added my concurrence.
  • Seems appropriate detail for this alleged individual; despite its brevity I don't think it neglects any major facts but you could perhaps slightly expand on one point: In 1988, White also claimed that a person wearing a white shirt is visible behind the Badge Man -- in The Men Who Killed Kennedy our investigators posited a fellow wearing a hardhat behind/beside Badge Man; since you mention Arnold, also discussed in that show and also somewhat peripheral to the Badge Man claim, perhaps you could add a tiny bit on "Hardhat Man" or whatever they call him...

Nice work. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:21, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I expanded on the "Back Up Man" a bit. ~ HAL333 19:28, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Just a note that as the article has been stable for a while now I'm pretty well ready to support but will hold off till after the source review (I could do it but as I've done a fair bit of research into the assassination myself and have my opinions I'd prefer to see someone else take it). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 17:13, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Some images are missing alt text
  • File:Moorman_photo_of_JFK_assassination.jpg: the text says this was seen "in world media" - where was it first published? Was the copyright held by UPI or retained by Moorman?
  • File:Badgeman.jpg: where and when was this first published? Ditto File:Badgeman_coloured.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:02, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've added all missing alt text. Regarding the copyright of the Moorman photograph, I could find no mention of Moorman or the UPI registering for copyright anywhere. For instance, the National Gallery of Art makes no mention of copyright registry. Furthermore, according to the Library of Congress, prior to 1964, UPI rarely ever renewed copyright, let alone even registered for it in the first place. And since the other two images are simply derivatives of the first, I'm assuming that they don't have their own copyright registry, right?... ~ HAL333 04:03, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
A separate registry, no; a separate copyright, potentially, if the changes meet the threshold of originality. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:20, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I doubt the black and white image meets the threshold — it's just zoomed in and brightened. But I have no idea if the colored image is copyrighted... If you think it is, I think we can probably use it under a fair use license. ~ HAL333 05:41, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Location

  • This article has been on my Watchlist and I've noticed your edits, but I haven't taken time to thoroughly review the article. My first action was to scan the sources and the only one that strikes me as possibly objectionable is the citation to Oliver Stone. As Stone has plunged head first into JFK conspiracy theories, I am hesitant to accept him as a source on anything related to the JFK assassination even when he happens to be correct on some fact. (I will also ping Canada Jack because he might have some feedback on this subject.) - Location (talk) 03:59, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's a fair point. And especially since Stone sources that material from Jim Marrs, I'll find a replacement. ~ HAL333 04:12, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I sourced it to Lane, who isn't ideal but is preferable to Marrs. I also attributed it to him and I think his claim (whether right or wrong) is of historical pertinence. ~ HAL333 18:26, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The article currently states: "The Warren Commission did not include the Moorman photograph in the volumes of its 1964 report. Mark Lane noted this in his 1966 work Rush to Judgment and claimed that the photo had been "suppressed"." I think Myers[2] is a reliable source for stating that Moorman did not testify before the WC and that her photograph did not appear in the WC report, however, Lane's claim of suppression fails WP:REDFLAG and should be removed unless we have a reliable secondary source reiterating his claim. We certain don't want to go with what Lane claimed without addressing what Moorman herself said: "The Warren Commission subpoenaed me, but I had my ankle turned and I couldn’t come. And they never called me again".[3] Larry Sabato is another reliable source who indicated that Moorman told him that she was invited to testify but asked for a postponement after the ankle injury.[4] (BTW: Here is Moorman's 2011 interview in which she said she turned her angle after being contacted by the WC, but she clarified that she was not actually subpoenaed. [See 11:05.]) Sabato also indicated that Moorman didn't see anything out of the ordinary behind the fence and that she was not convinced there is a second shooter in the photograph. As the person who captured the photo, her opinion is noteworthy and should be considered for inclusion. - Location (talk) 20:23, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Solid points. Give me a few days to tinker with it and see if I can dredge up some more RS. ~ HAL333 22:34, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Regarding material discussing Mack, should there be a change in tense since he is deceased? - Location (talk) 06:41, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I didn't realize that. Fixed. ~ HAL333 17:25, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Eh, I'm indifferent. But I can remove it if you want. ~ HAL333 17:29, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Unless someone else has some insight on how to handle this, I guess I would just leave it in. - Location (talk) 06:33, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • This article in The Irish Times states "A detailed reconstruction of the photograph confirmed that, while 'Badge Man' would have had a clear shot on Kennedy, the figure would have measured 2.88ft (88cm) in height." I don't see that in the article nor do I see it in HSCA Appendix IV or the snippet of Bugliosi I can see, so I'm not sure if it is usable or if it can be backed up by another source. - Location (talk) 07:00, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yeah, I don't know where they're getting that from. It sounds like something from Dale Myers, but I couldn't find him saying that. Also, it just doesn't make any sense: the fence itself is five feet tall. ~ HAL333 17:29, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Myers has a page on this [5] which mentions the original 1982 claim by Mack and subsequent research which shows that the figure, to be of human size, needed to be well back of the fence and hovering over the ground. The specific height from The Irish Times isn't mentioned, but might be worth searching for the research Geoffrey Crawley did on this - as mentioned in Myers' article - as that may be where the height claim comes from. Canada Jack (talk) 19:26, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That Myers page is already cited in the article. I tried finding the original Crawley material, but to no avail.... ~ HAL333 20:37, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think it might be worth adding that Turner/Mack/White said Crawley's findings confirmed theirs, but that he later said that they did not... and that he said that he thought Turner was ignoring what he actually reported. Crawley's obituary touches on Turner's documentary here. From GBooks there is likely more about this on page 4 of the 1988 issue of The British Journal of Photography, but it wouldn't be worth the $18 on Amazon to me. - Location (talk) 01:29, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I added it as a footnote, if that's all right. The Guardian obit presents Crawley as indifferent on the subject, which I don't think is accurate. And I unfortunately have the same stance on the BJP article (I really wish all journals were open-source). ~ HAL333 05:11, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In the larger photo, is there any chance of getting a circle around or arrow pointing to the area of speculation? This version of Moorman's polaroid photo actually has better detail for this. - Location (talk) 20:30, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree -- I tried adding a red circle to the current image but it kept turning to greyscale when I tried to export it. I just made a request to the Graphics Lab. I've also actually thought about using that image. It is higher resolution, but holistically I think it's inferior. ~ HAL333 02:46, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My understanding from reading the link to Dale Myers is that the one with the thumbprint is the original, but it was photographed before the thumbprint began to show and before the image faded. Apparently all of the images without the thumbprint are reproductions of the photographed photo, which explains the decrease in sharpness. Is it worth putting both with a note in the caption? - Location (talk) 06:33, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I was under the same impression. I tinkered with having both versions of the Moorman photograph but it didn't work: it was too crowded and there were sandwiching issues. However, the degraded original polaroid has grown on me and I have added it in place of the UPI version. I ended up putting the details from Myers in another footnote, if that works. ~ HAL333 20:15, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Related to this, consider adding a note under the full photo that its actual size is 2.125 x 2.875 inches and that the head of the Badge Man measures only about 1/69 of an inch wide. - Location (talk) 07:22, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done. ~ HAL333 07:46, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The skepticism voiced seems to only address the evaluation of the photograph, however, I think eyewitness accounts related to this should also be mentioned (e.g. see John C. McAdams here and Michel Jacques Gagné here) especially since the opening sentence does not really make clear that this is a fringe claim. - Location (talk) 20:30, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I already included that no shooter was found on the grassy knoll when the crowd rushed there, and that Lee Bowers (the best grassy knoll witness) did not see the Badge Man. However, I added a bit more and also mentioned the lack of any witnesses in the lead. I didn't mention any more names as I think Bowers is by far the most notable and don't want to get bogged down in too much detail. ~ HAL333 06:30, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I would consider adding Abraham Zapruder, too, as he easily has more name recognition that Bowers. This article in Commentary states: "Well, if 'badge man' is an assassin, he fired from a spot right next to, at most fifteen feet below and to the right of, Zapruder and Sitzman. Again, they did not notice." The article also states: "Was Gordon Arnold there? He does not appear in photos, though some find him in the Moorman photo right next to 'badge man.' (Apparently Arnold did not notice the 'badge man' shooting the President.)" This only serves to show that Arnold was fabricating his story, so I'm not sure it would need to be worked into the article. - Location (talk) 17:13, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Zapruder has been added. ~ HAL333 20:22, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The lede currently states: "Badge Man is a name given to an unknown figure that is purportedly visible within the Mary Moorman photograph of the assassination of United States President John F. Kennedy in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963. Conspiracy theorists have suggested that this figure is a sniper firing a weapon at the President from the grassy knoll." There is something that strikes me a bit odd about the wording of the first part of the first sentence. If "purportedly" means "allegedly", is it the presence of a figure that is alleged or is its visibility alleged? - Location (talk) 21:36, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm not sure there's really a semantical difference... But I'm open to changes. Should I change it to "purportedly present" or something else? ~ HAL333 02:20, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think we should drop "a name give to". For example, we say "Red Rover is team game..." We don't say "Red Rover is the name of a team game..." Here are a couple ideas:
"Badge Man is a figure/a shooter/a sniper/an assassin purportedly present within Mary Moorman's photograph of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963."
"Badge Man is a figure/a shooter/a sniper/an assassin purported/claimed by some conspiracy theorists to be present within Mary Moorman's photograph of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963."
FWIW, Lisa Grunwald in the December 1991 issue of LIFE described the Badge Man this way: "One of the purported grassy knoll assailants. In a blowup of a tiny section of a Polaroid photograph, some researchers see the image of a man with a badge on one shoulder and a flash of light before him." UPI said Badge Man is "the name given to an image that some theorists say is a second shooter that can be seen in blowups of the photos".[6] - Location (talk) 07:48, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Fair point. I've reworded it mostly along the lines of your first suggestion. I went with figure in the very small chance that it may just be Arnold with a camera. ~ HAL333 20:19, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sorry to come back to this. For those who think Badge Man is a person, AFAIK all of them think he is a shooter/sniper/assassin and none of them think it is Arnold. I think some CTs think Arnold was next to Badge Man, per this unreliable source. - Location (talk) 08:49, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No problem at all! I appreciate these thorough comments and hope you do this for the rest of my JFK assassination candidates (John F. Kennedy autopsy is in the pipeline). According to the Dallas Morning News, Mack's first theory about the Badge Man was that he was Arnold (i.e. the police uniform is an army uniform and the muzzle flare is a glinting metal camera). Even ignoring that, I just prefer "figure". Is there any chance I could stick with it? ~ HAL333 17:07, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I see your rational. Ironically it looks like I had added that bit to the article with this edit in May 2013, but it was eventually removed by another editor with this edit in November 2017 stating that it was not in the citation given. It looks like I had added a hidden note that a citation was needed for the date, so that may have prompted the removal. - Location (talk) 19:35, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Consider including something regarding alleged identity of the alleged assassin: "Some conspiracy theorists believe/speculate that J. D. Tippit, the Dallas Police Department office shot and killed by Oswald 45 minutes after the assassination of Kennedy, is the Badge Man."[7][8] According to Bugliosi, The Men Who Killed Kennedy suggest Lucien Sarti is Badge Man.[9] Of course there are a million people named as a grassy knoll shooter, but most reliable sources don't link them in name to Badge Man. - Location (talk) 07:48, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • Butting in, well done Location, if any RSs mention Tippett as a possible Badge Man it'd certainly be worth adding -- makes perfect sense of course, he wouldn't even have had to disguise himself...! OTOH I think the way Sarti is mentioned in the article already is fine, don't think "According to Bugliosi" is really needed... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:01, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • Ooops. I didn't even see that Sarti had already been noted! (FWIW: here and here are two UPI articles reporting that The Men Who Killed Kennedy claims Sarti was disguised as a police officer when he fired a fatal rifle shot. The article doesn't explicitly mention Badge Man, but it does refer to the photo.) - Location (talk) 16:47, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I've added the Tippit claim -- that's a great point and had never occured to me. Although the J.D. Tippit website linked above is a little rickety (I actually sort of miss the times when all websites looked like that.), I think it's an RS as it was put out by Myers. ~ HAL333 20:35, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Moorman photograph
  • "where some witnesses believed the shots had originated": I'm not sure about AmEng, but in BrEng it should be "from where": I leave it to your judgement
  • No, that's how we say it stateside as well. Fixed. ~ HAL333 19:12, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "which concluded that there was a second assassin on the grassy knoll based on discredited acoustic evidence": I think this is a bit garbled and/or unclear. Maybe it would work better as "which concluded that there was a second assassin on the grassy knoll based on what is now discredited acoustic evidence" (or "based on what was later discredited")?
    • Butting in, I was thinking the same; obviously not discredited at the time but it certainly was later... Cheers Ian Rose (talk) 14:30, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Gary Mack
  • " In the mid-1980s, White put": "he put"
  • "It has been proposed": are there any names that can be put to this – it's a bit weasely other wise – even if it is along the lines of "Bugliosi states ..."

That's it. A short and nicely put together article. – SchroCat (talk) 13:34, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

All fixed. I appreciate the comments. ~ HAL333 19:12, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Good work - Support from me. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 19:17, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

Recusing to review.

  • "The Badge Man is an unknown figure that is purportedly present". That reads oddly. Should it not be 'The Badge Man is an unknown figure who is purportedly present'? If you don't want to personalise it, then I think "unknown" needs to either go or be changed.
  • Image caption: "Enlargement of the Badge Man". From the original or the higher quality photograph?
  • "whether or not the Badge Man is a genuine human figure." Why use the word "genuine"? Is there such a thing as a non-genuine human figure? Similarly in the main article.
  • "the figure is actually an optical distortion from a Coca-Cola bottle or simply different background elements." To mean what I think you want it to, I suggest a comma after "bottle".

Nice. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:30, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

'Preciate the comments. All addressed. ~ HAL333 00:19, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

La Salute è in voi

Nominator(s): czar 20:07, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • 25¢
  • "An indispensable pamphlet for those comrades who love self-instruction"
  • "Mere possession of this wicked treatise would suggest that the owner was up to no good."
  • "The great unmentioned fact" of the Sacco-Vanzetti case
  • "If any of the bombers used La Salute as their textbook (and there is no evidence that they did), it proved inadequate ... None of the [their] bombs ever reached their intended targets ... They injured only bystanders or themselves."

Probably the first bomb-making handbook at FAC, this little article is a complete treatment of the subject and its weaponization from all of its major sources. After a review by @Asilvering last year, I haven't found any further improvements to make. I believe it meets the criteria. Looking forward to your consideration, czar 20:07, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:55, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "It also includes safety procedure" => "It also includes safety procedures"
  • "The handbook treated its measurements like a farmer's almanac by giving potential household uses for chemicals" - is it really the "measurements" that were treated like an almanac? I don't get this sentence......
  • "but otherwise lacking occupational access to dynamite and the practical experience in bomb-making" => "but otherwise lacking occupational access to dynamite and practical experience in bomb-making"
  • "La Salute è in voi did not contain complex formula" => "La Salute è in voi did not contain complex formulae"
  • refs after "if not the full book" are not in order
  • same with refs after "printed by the newspaper on its back page"
  • "depicting Ravachol" - could you give context to who he was? Just saying "depicting French anarchist Ravachol" would suffice
  • There's no reason to have brackets round the whole sentence beginning "(Though during". Lose the brackets and change the first word to "although"
  • "After Sacco and Vanzetti were denied appeal" - again, give context as to who these men were
  • Also no need to wikilink their names twice in the paragraph
  • "to avoid appearance that" => "to avoid the appearance that"
  • That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:26, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Thanks, @ChrisTheDude. Appreciate the review and I believe I've addressed your bullets. The refs out of order are intentional so as to list the most relevant ref first. czar 09:55, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Hmmm, I have always understood that multiple refs placed together should always be in numerical order, but try as I might, I can't find any MOS page that actually says that. So maybe it's actually no big deal. Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:29, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • Comment: I verified all the refs when I did the GA review. No major changes since then. -- asilvering (talk) 04:29, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • Link anarchist? (Or is that considered overlinking?)
  • For some translated titles—such as Cronaca Sovversiva (Subversion Chronicle)—you italicise both original and translation; for others—such as Guerra all’oppressore (War Against Oppressors)—you don't. I'm not sure of the MOS stance on this, but consistency either way would be best.
  • "defendents'": " defendants'"?
  • There's a couple of hidden notes you should probably remove at some point too.

Hope these help. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:22, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks @SchroCat. Addressed those. The italics is tricky because it depends whether the handbook is a creative work. I'm going to err on the side that it is, per its source. czar 06:15, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • A final suggestion from me (your call on it either way): you can link both Ettore Molinari and Luigi Galleani in the image caption should you want to.
    Support from me – interesting article. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Ian

Recusing coord duties to review... All WP needs is a Featured Article on a bomb-making handbook but let's live dangerously... ;-)

  • Completed my habitual copyedit so let me know if you think I messed up anything -- no outstanding queries re. the prose.
  • Content-wise, seems succinct yet comprehensive, and neutral in tone.
  • I'll take Nikki's image review as read.

Source review

  • Nothing leaps out re. reliability.
  • Formatting-wise:
    • If you're going to link one publisher (i.e. Princeton University Press) you may as well link all you can (or none at all).
    • I don't think there's any need to include OCLC when you have ISBN, and it's not done consistently anyway.

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 20:53, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks, @Ian Rose. Appreciate the edits, which look good, and addressed the rest. czar 05:06, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Tks, happy to support. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:05, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Frye Fire

Nominator(s): –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 09:46, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Continuing (or I guess beginning) my series on contemporary wildfires in the state of Arizona, I would like to present for consideration for Featured-dom this, the Frye Fire of 2017. This was a fire that scarred almost 48,000 acres of the Coronado National Forest that hadn't burned for more than 10 years. It also almost became an extinction event for an endemic and very threatened species of squirrel and has had lasting environmental consequences for the people of Graham County, Arizona. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 09:46, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "and allocated another $200,000 ($221,097, adjusted for inflation) for containing the wildfires." What does "another" mean? Was there money allocated previously to containing the fire?
  • This is complicated. The answer is yes, because wildfires are fought with state and federal budgets. As I understand, however, there was some concern that the fiscal year in which the fire was burning couldn't cover its costs, so Governor Ducey declared a state of emergency to ensure that there was some money to keep throwing at it . –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 02:12, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Recreational areas began reopening on July 13." Recreational areas where?
  • "firefighting officials decided on June 16 to quarantine personnel showing strep throat symptoms, began regular testing for strep throat, and mandated regular disinfection of equipment." Should that be "begin" instead of "began"?
  • I'm surprised that this eluded me. Link added. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 02:12, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "the environmental and civic risks posed by Frye Fire's burn scar." Should a "the" be added in front of "Frye Fire's" there?
  • Should "denuded" be linked? It's not really a common term.
  • I've rephrased this sentence. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 02:12, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "On July 19 those monsoon rains had arrived". Should that be "On July 19 those monsoon rains arrived", or maybe "By July 19 those monsoon rains had arrived".
  • Went with something akin to the latter. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 02:12, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "and the closure on July 31 on Arizona State Route 366 (SR 366) after it was damaged by runoff." How about "and the closure on July 31 of Arizona State Route 366 (SR 366) after it was damaged by runoff."
  • Shouldn't BAER be stated after Burned Area Response Team? I didn't do this myself because there is already a comment within the page's source code for this and I'm unsure what that's about.
  • Yes; I had it commented it out in case I needed it, and forgot to uncomment it. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 02:12, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "57,000 lb (26,000 kg) of sterile barley seeds were dropped over this area by August 10." It would be better if this sentence didn't begin with a number.
  • "was demolished to remove that blockage". What blockage?
  • "Arizona Department of Forestry and Fire Management". Is a red link applicable here? Surely this should become an article one day.
  • "Effect on Mount Graham red squirrel". Should that be changed to "Effect on the Mount Graham red squirrel"?

That's all for now. Steelkamp (talk) 12:10, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support. Steelkamp (talk) 16:37, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • File:Frye_Fire_432_11highlight_pan_crop_15_(34948002573).jpg: see WP:WATERMARK. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:12, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Image removed. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 06:28, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I am now looking into replacing this image with this one from the Bureau of Land Management. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 06:34, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Epicgenius

I hope to leave some comments soon. – Epicgenius (talk) 14:55, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi Epicgenius, did you still want to review? No pressure, we have a reasonable amount of commentary now, but don't want to deprive you of the opportunity if you're still interested... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:10, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Ian Rose, no problem. I was busy for the past week, but I can take a look soon. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:33, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from PMC

Also staking out a claim. ♠PMC(talk) 01:59, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • I think Harry's suggestion for a small background section is a wise one. I've found them very helpful in establishing context for my articles.
    • Done? What do you think? –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 07:24, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • Looks good
  • Noticing some passive voice in the lead
    • "No fatalities resulted from the fire" - passive voice. you could also simplify to "there were no fatalities", the fire is implied from context
    • "Three structures were destroyed by" - passive voice
    • Lead activated. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 06:59, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • 😂 ♠PMC(talk) 01:03, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "in which the Frye Fire was burning" - this clause feels awkward. Can we introduce the national forest earlier, maybe in the first sentence?
  • Did the Coronado Forest begin suppression efforts or did the forest service? I guess it means the organization that manages the forest, but it reads a bit oddly.
  • I feel like your sentences are sometimes overstuffed/knotted up with clauses. I tweaked one here, if that helps show what I mean.
  • "The burned area..." - here we go from area, to # of firefighters, back to area. Can we separate the firefighters here? It reads confusingly.
  • I have removed the clause about the firefighters. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 06:59, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I think you can separate the sentences about the fire's size on June 20 and the smoke reaching Tucson. I also think it would be helpful to include the approximate distance to Tucson. IMO this is not OR as it's a routine calculation.
    • Removed the mention of smoke entirely. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 06:59, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • I don't understand why, I think it's relevant. I just think the distance helps the reader understand the significance better - like, if the smoke is reaching a major city one mile away that's a lot less crazy than if it's hitting like, 100 miles away. (I'm not gonna oppose over the removal I just don't think I understand it). ♠PMC(talk) 01:03, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • There's a discrepancy between the lead, which says 69 were quarantined, and the body, which says 62
  • As it turns out, both those numbers were wrong! 63 people were quarantined. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 06:59, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Although 300 people..." - I'm not sure the "although" works here. "Although" introduces a thing that happens in spite of something else, in the vein of "although I don't like pie, this one was good". In this case, the fact that the plague ended June 16 doesn't necessarily follow as happening in spite of the number of people exposed and quarantined.
  • "The Ash Creek flooding threatened, on August 11," - This doesn't need to be a clause offset by comments, it's cleaner to start the sentence with it and lose the commas
  • Why did they drop sterile barley seeds if they're trying to regrow the area?

Actually, turns out that's the remainder of my commentary. Another piece of solid work from you, Vami :) ♠PMC(talk) 05:36, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Everything looks good to me, so I'm pleased to support. ♠PMC(talk) 01:05, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Harry

  • The date should be in the first sentence to assist with identification of the subject. Suggest mostly flipping the order of the first two sentences.
  • I've moved the dates around and cut and modified some sentences. How does it look now? –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 00:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • posed an existential threat suggest just "threatened" the threat was obviously existential so the extra words don't convey any more meaning
  • Condensed per suggestion. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 00:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Over 800 firefighters worked to contain and then extinguish the Frye Fire at a cost of $26,000,000 Reads like each firefighter was purchased for $32,500. Is that the total cost of the firefighting effort, the cost of the damage caused, the firefighters' wages, or something else?
  • That was the total cost of fighting the fire; I have rearranged this sentence to convey this. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 00:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The Frye Fire had immediate and lasting environmental consequences. Redundant. Those are essentially the only types of consequence
  • A paragraph of background might be useful. I was hoping to find about something about the area, how common fires are in that part of the world, whether they're natural phenomena or human-exacerbated, whether any mitigation measures were in place, perhaps whether they're getting more frequent with climate change (if there are sources to that effect). Placing the subject in context (1b).
  • In brief, wildfires are a common and natural part of the ecosystem of Arizona, but they have been exacerbated by climate change and overzealous firefighting over the past century. Where possible, I do like to include notes on local conditions prior to the fire (see Sawmill Fire (2017), an FA, and Tinder Fire, a work in progress) for context. Often times, though, RS don't discuss these things; I can only make note of those conditions for the Tinder Fire because the Coconino National Forest (which it burned through) has a page on it. I have in the past tried to track down things like National Weather Service advisories, but was unsuccessful; what I can do is very much decided by whether or not someone has written about something related to the fire beyond its size and containment (figures lifted from InciWeb statements, which often don't get archived), and/or whether or not someone has archived that material. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 00:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Now, regarding frequency and external factors, I think that would be a better fit on the dedicated "season in review" article; in this case, 2017 Arizona wildfires, which has not been written yet. I am collecting material now for 2017 Arizona wildfires and 2018 Arizona wildfires. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 00:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    My issue is that from reading this article the reader doesn't know that fires are a common and natural occurrence in Arizona, nor that there were multiple similar fires in 2017 and more in 2018. I get that there might not be sources for all the details we'd like but a little bit of context is necessary and helpful. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:18, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    I'll see what I can do. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 06:59, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @HJ Mitchell: I have provided a background section. What do you think? –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 07:24, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • airborne particulates reached Tucson roughly how far away is Tuscon?
  • I do not know. RS did not make a note of this, I suspect because they are based in Arizona. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 00:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • From June 27 to July 12, when firefighters achieved 88% containment of the Frye Fire's spread, it grew in size from 38,395 acres (15,538 ha) to 48,443 acres (19,604 ha) That's quite a complicated sentence and puts the containment in front of the spread. Suggest re-casting as two sentences. Also, spell out "percent" per MOS:%.
  • in response to the 2017 Arizona wildfires It hasn't previously been mentioned that this is part of a larger series of fires so this is quite surprising to the reader; something else that could be covered with a well-thought-out background section.
  • I'll see what I can do. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 00:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • and allocated another $200,000 in addition to what? This is the first mention of money in the body.
  • firefighting officials decided on June 16 to quarantine Do we have a better description than "firefighting officials", which is very journalistic? If not, the use of passive voice might be worth considering (something I normally advocate against in FACs).
  • No, not really. The document is written for firefighters, so it's pretty jargon-y, and I don't know which organization those officials were a part of. I have reworded this sentence, too. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 00:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "decided to quarantine" → quarantined. Tighter prose and the quarantine should be the subject of the sentence, rather than the decision (which can be inferred to have been taken).
  • officials issued warnings same concern about "officials" as above; if possible, name the agency the warnings came from
  • began sending surface runoff → sent for concision, though I'd prefer a better verb (not sure rainwater "sends" anything)
  • Replaced with "washed". –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 00:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • because of this decimation, loss of habitat, predation This takes the reader by surprise as you haven't specified what the effect of the fire was. You then have a list of four threats, two of which don't seem to be related to the fire. Are you saying that that the near-extinction was because of squirrels dying in the fire, or because of habitat destruction? If so, you should state this explicitly.
  • No plausible links for a "see also"? Like a list of fires or articles on similar fires?
  • They're contained in the navbox at the bottom of the article. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 00:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:20, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Hi Harry, have you reviewed all responses/actions? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:11, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Source review from Guerillero

  • Pyne 2006 has the ISBN wonky
  • Why is New Mexico In Depth a high quality RS?
  • It's a small-time online paper pertaining to New Mexico, publishing journalists with work in bigger papers like The New York Times (Ted Alcorn). Not very controversial. They appear to have a single editor, though. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:31, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Not my favorite, but I can live with it being in an FA. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Why is Wildland Fire Lessons Learned a high quality RS?
  • WFLL is a federally-funded research database. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:31, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Sure I will accept it --Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Why is International Fire Fighter a high quality RS?
  • I had never heard of IFF or it's publisher before writing this article, but I had heard of its author; Bill Gabbert is a former firefighter who runs two websites that I only refrain from citing because they're SPS. He's got very good coverage of fires and, as a former firefighter, covers them well. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:31, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Update: Guerillero and I discovered that Gabbert has been quoted by CNN, ABC, Colorado Public Radio, and Oregon Public Broadcast, among other online publications. He's also quoted in a buncha local newspapers covering fires (examples found by Guerillero on 1, 2, 3, 4). –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:42, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
(edit conflict) After talking with you about this, I have come to the conclusion that Bill Gabbert is a SME about wildfires. See quotes in Knoxville News-Sentinel Rapid City Journal Rapid City Journal Ravalli Republic Arizona Republic Montana Standard over the past decade. -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:45, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

--Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:17, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support based on my source review. The online paper isn't a make or break issue. -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 21:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

8th Missouri Infantry Regiment (Confederate)

Nominator(s): Hog Farm Talk 22:19, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I worked on this one all the way back in 2020, but was just recently able to find sources to resolve a snag that came up in the ACR. It's been since August of '21 that I've taken a unit article to FAC, so the background may need fiddled with a bit. I hope this one isn't showing 2+ years of being left alone too badly. Hog Farm Talk 22:19, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "the American Civil War. The American Civil War". The end and start of those sentences is repetitive.
    • Rephrased
  • First mention of Arkansas in the lead can be linked, as it is with Louisiana and Missouri.
    • Done
  • "On July 23, the unit..." You should add the year here because it's in a new paragraph.
    • Done
  • "where it pursued a retreating Union column..." What's a column?
    • Rephrased to avoid the jargon

I will have more comments later. Steelkamp (talk) 05:22, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

Recusing to review.

  • "but was soon reclassified as infantry." Is no more precise date known?
    • Added to the lead
  • "was reclassified as a battalion and named ..." Again, any dates?
    • Added to the lead
  • "By the time of the 1860 United States Presidential Election ... Eventually, many southerners ... especially after Abraham Lincoln was elected president in 1860." is a little clunky. Perhaps 'By the time of the 1860 United States Presidential Election, slavery had become one of the defining features of southern culture, with the ideology of states' rights being used to defend the institution. After Abraham Lincoln was elected president in 1860, many southerners decided that secession was the only way to preserve slavery.'?
  • The next sentence goes on to say the same sort of thing. Do we really need this level of detail on an election which took place 20 months before the unit the article is about even came into existence?
  • Ditto the lengthy narrative about Fort Sumner - and its mention in the lead. Did the 8th Missouri ever get within 700 miles of Charleston?
  • The whole Background section could do with a rigorous copy edit IMHO. I mean, the detail "The ensuing Battle of Wilson's Creek was envisioned as a pincer attack, but Lyon was killed and his men routed; the Union troops retreated all the way to Rolla after the defeat." is relevant to a unit which didn't even start recruiting until more than a year later in what way?
  • And could we have a year at the first mention of a date in each paragraph? Thanks.

I'm going to pause here to allow the nominator to have a think. I'll be back. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:44, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

    • Gonna take a hatchet to the background after work - will try to at least halve the pre-Pea Ridge material. Hog Farm Talk 14:15, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • Down from 788 words in the background to 509. If more needs to go, Lexington and Camp Jackson will probably be next. Hog Farm Talk 16:00, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

First quick thoughts, suggest:

  • Replace "On the morning of April 12, the Confederates fired on Fort Sumter in Charleston Harbor, beginning the American Civil War.[3] In the following weeks, more states seceded and joined the Confederacy.[4] Meanwhile," with 'on April 12 the American Civil War began and more states seceded and joined the Confederacy.'
    • I've left in a brief name-drop of Fort Sumter, but have trimmed the rest as suggested
  • "Lyon pursued the secessionists, and a clash between Union troops and combined elements of the Missouri State Guard and the Confederate States Army at the Battle of Wilson's Creek on August 10, 1861, led to a Union defeat and Lyon's death.[6] Sterling Price, the commander of the Missouri State Guard, followed up the victory at Wilson's Creek by driving north towards the Missouri River, and in September won another victory at the siege of Lexington. Union pressure soon led Price to withdraw back to southwestern Missouri.[7] " Delete!
    • I've summarized this all down to "The Missouri State Guard won several victories in the latter part of 1861, but by the end of the year were restricted to the southwestern part of the state." Hog Farm Talk 16:48, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:25, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ok, let me get back to you on the rest. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:54, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • "Beginning in May, events in the state of Missouri led to an expansion of the war into that state." You what? How about 'From May the war started effecting events in the state of Missouri' or similar?
    • Done
  • "necessitating the consolidation of the regiment into six companies". Is it known how many companies it had before?
    • McGhee doesn't say directly. Probably 10 based on the use of the word "regiment", since CSA regulations usually required a unit to have at least 10 companies to be considered a regiment, but that's just guesswork on my part
  • "known as Mitchell's Missouri Infantry during the battle". Why? I mean, I understand that all Arkansas Confederates had several screws loose, but ...
    • Ugh. Revised significantly here and in the lead
I love "Ugh" as a response to a reviewer comment. Do you think we could popularise it?
  • "1862": the paragraphing seems a bit odd. Any reason why the fighting at Prairie Grove is split between 2 paragraphs, each containing other stuff?
    • For paragraph length reasons. I've re-arranged more topically
  • "elements of Frazier's Missouri Infantry Battalion were amalgamated together to form a tenth company; with ten companies, the unit could again be called a regiment." Is 'and attached to the battalion' missing from the middle of that? Or have I missed something?
    • Yes, that needs added. Done
  • "to a point known as White's Bluff, via steamboat." Maybe swap these clauses to keep them in chronological order?
    • Done.
  • "leveraging". What does this mean?
    • I think I may have been attempting to use "levering". Replaced with "maneuvering".
It sounded like something from Wall Street.
  • "On June 23, Confederate Brigadier General Stand Watie surrendered, becoming the last Confederate general officer to surrender his command." Is that relevant?
    • Removed
  • "Over the course of its combat career". Suggest "career" → 'existence'. And did it have a non-combat career?
    • Reworded

Gog the Mild (talk) 21:46, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Thanks for reviewing! I've actioned all of the comments to date. Hog Farm Talk 04:11, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Encyclopedia of Arkansas is a work title and should be italicized
  • Be consistent in how you format publication locations - why include state for Knoxville but not Chapel Hill? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:59, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • Thanks for the source review! I've fixed the formatting on the E of A cite, and have included the state for Chapel Hill - based on my reading of MOS:USPLACE, it's not required for Boston or New York per the AP style guide. Hog Farm Talk 23:52, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Pendright

  • will start soon - Pendright (talk) 04:36, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • @Hog Farm: The previous general review did much to improve the article, but it appears that there is still much to do. To produce the best results here, I believe, a more unorthodox method of review should be empoloyed. So, I started with the Background section and hope to resolve any issues arisng therefrom before moving on and then repeating the process section by section. The lead will be reviewed last. Ping me anytime! Pendright (talk) 22:36, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Background & formation:

  • By the time of the 1860 United States Presidential Election, slavery had become one of the defining features of southern culture, with the ideology of states' rights being used to defend the institution.
  • Wasn't slavery well embedded in the southern coulture long before the 1860 electiion?
  • Suggest this for the last clause: and using the ideology of states' rights to defend the institution.
  • I've rewritten several parts of this sentence, which hopefully resolves the issues. Hog Farm Talk 15:44, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
<>Issues resolved! Pendright (talk) 18:54, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • After Abraham Lincoln was elected president in 1860, many [southern states] southerners decided that secession [from the United States] was the only way to preserve slavery.
  • Suggest the above changes
  • How "many" is many?
  • I think I prefer the current phrasing - the idea is to highlight that the support for secession grew with the southern populace, which is what led to secession in these states. Hog Farm Talk 15:44, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • <>The southern population (southerns) influnced secession from the United States but they did not effect it - their individual state governemt representatives did.
  • <>"Many, defined, is a large number of - "large", defined, is of considerable or relatively great size; the actual number after South Carolina was six. If words have meaning, then many is incorrect.
  • I've significantly reworded this sentence to avoid any reference to many - it seems odd to me to give an exact number of states for discussing the order of secession here. Hog Farm Talk 02:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Original text w/ suggestions:
After Abraham Lincoln was elected president in 1860, many [southern states] southerners decided that secession [from the United States] was the only way to preserve slavery.
Rephrased text:
After Abraham Lincoln was elected president in 1860, a movement towards secession as the only way to preserve slavery formed.
An excerpt from the American Civil War says this, "Decades of political controversy over slavery were brought to a head by the victory in the 1860 U.S. presidential election of Abraham Lincoln... Pendright (talk) 03:17, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • On December 20, the state of South Carolina seceded and several others followed suit in early 1861, forming the Confederate States of America on February 4.
  • The word suit seems unneeded
  • Removed. Hog Farm Talk 15:44, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "thus" forming
  • Added Hog Farm Talk 15:44, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • How "many" is several
  • I've added this, although it required a footnote due to TX being a bit squirrelly. Hog Farm Talk 02:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Add "1861" after February 4
  • Done
  • On April 12, the American Civil War began with the Battle of Fort Sumter,[3] and more states soon seceded and joined the Confederacy.[4]
  • How many is "more states"?
  • Added
  • At this point, tell readers how many states were then confederate states?
  • Added
  • After pro-Confederate militia threatening the St. Louis Arsenal were dispersed in May in the Camp Jackson affair, the pro-Confederate Missouri State Guard was formed.
  • Brigadier General Nathaniel Lyon of the Union Army ejected Jackson and the pro-secession elements of the state legislature from the state capital on June 15, and the Missouri State Guard withdrew to southwestern Missouri.[5]
These two sequential sentences do not seem to square well with the Camp Jackson affair link?
@Pendright: - I've made a change here to fix one part - switching the Jefferson City bit to " Brigadier General Nathaniel Lyon of the Union Army occupied the state capital on June 15, " after consulting a second source, I determined the prior wording was a bit of an overstatement, and have also clarified that the MSG was a new militia unit. Is there a specific part that you're still concerned about? The Camp Jackson article is not in great shape, but the general chronology goes Camp Jackson > MSG > Lyon occupies Jeff City > Battle of Booneville > retreat to SW MO. Hog Farm Talk 02:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The Missouri State Guard won several victories in the latter part of 1861, but by the end of the year were restricted to the southwestern part of the state.[6]
  • but by the end of the year [they] were restricted to the southwestern part of the state.[6]
  • Done
  • What victories?
  • Gog the Mild actually asked me to remove this as excess detail during his review. Hog Farm Talk 03:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Why were they restricted to the sothwestern part of the state?
  • Added
  • Thus far, in this section, readers have have been exposed to such terms as

the "pro-Confederate militia", the "pro-Confederate Missouri State Guard" and the "Missouri state guard".

Explain how these units fit into the scheme of things, or are some just a varation of the same unit? Why is the fighting in 1861 discussed here?
As to why it's discussed here, I've been consistently asked to provide some level of background detail for these units at FAC and A-class. Hopefully some phrasing changes I've made clarifies the relationship between the MSG and the prior militia by indicating that the MSG was a new, separate pro-Confederate force. Hog Farm Talk 03:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • On November 3, Jackson and the pro-secession elements of the state legislature voted to secede and join the Confederate States of America as a government-in-exile; the anti-secession elements of the legislature had previously voted against secession, leading to the state having two nominal governments.[7]
  • November 3,186?
  • Added
  • Could tell readers that the goverment in exile was not a member of the confederacy, but it had esentially the same rights as a member.
  • The Confederacy actually admitted it as a member, along with the Confederate government of Kentucky. It just wasn't able to make a serious claim because of the lack of Confederate control in the state. I don't know that much detail on the exact nature of this government is warranted on an article on this specific unit. Hog Farm Talk 03:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • nominal would seem to apply only to the governemt in exile - see excert from State of Missouri: "With the elected governor absent from the capital and the legislators largely dispersed, the state convention was reassembled with most of its members present, save twenty who fled south with Jackson's forces. The convention declared all offices vacant and installed Hamilton Gamble as the new governor of Missouri. President Lincoln's administration immediately recognized Gamble's government as the legal Missouri government."
  • I've rephrased this clause significantly. Hog Farm Talk 03:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In February 1862, a Union advance led Price to abandon Missouri for Arkansas, where his men and another Confederate force were defeated at the Battle of Pea Ridge on March 7 and 8.
  • Price has not yet been introduced to readers in this section?
  • I've introduced Price earlier in the paragraph now. Hog Farm Talk 01:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Why is this not part of the "Service history 1862" section?
  • I'm keeping the service history to be the unit's service history, while this is more generally background material. Is there something I need to do to clarify that? Hog Farm Talk 01:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The battle gave the Union control of Missouri..[8]
  • the "victory" gave
  • Why is this not a part of the Service history section?
  • The service history is for the service history of the unit, while this predates the unit. Should I make this clearer somehow? Hog Farm Talk 01:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • <>Yes, and keeping in mind some of the following might help:
  • When was the militia formed and why?
  • When did the militia become pro-confedrate?
  • Was the militia later conveted into the state gaurd?
  • Was the state guare pro-confedertate from its begining?
  • Did Price leave with the entire state guard in tact?
  • Price and the state guard fought union forces on behalf of the comnedercy during the year 1861.
  • Was the formation of 7th and 8th formed to fill the Price void? Pendright (talk) 22:30, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

*On August 7, former veterans of the Missouri State Guard began forming a cavalry unit in Oregon County, Missouri. The unit officially entered Confederate service on September 2, while it was stationed at Evening Shade, Arkansas.

  • Despite entering service as a cavalry unit, Major General Theophilus Holmes, the commander of the Trans-Mississippi Department, ordered that the unit be converted to infantry on September 12.[10] That same month, the regiment was presented with a war flag of the first Confederate national flag pattern. However, the regiment lost many men due to transfers to other units, necessitating the consolidation of the regiment into six companies and a reclassification as a battalion on October 19.[11] Lieutenant Colonel[12] Charles S. Mitchell commanded the unit.[13]
The sequence of events that encompass some of this section are a bit untidy - the above is a case in point.
The above begins the Service history - 1962 - section that was inadvertantly included with the Background section; it will be reviewed later. Sorry! - Pendright (talk) 05:06, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Background and formation section:

  • "The background" part seems relative, but the "formation" part lacks relative substance and organizaton. Pendright (talk) 22:36, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • I've hopefully resolved this a bit by taking the formation material and moving it into the service history, so the background is now more distinct from the service history. Hog Farm Talk 02:40, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
<>Is the section heading still "Background and formation? Pendright (talk)
No - it's been renamed to just "Background". Hog Farm Talk 00:49, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Pendright: - I'm busy at work right now but will work on chipping away it this. It just might take a few days to get through all of these, but I will work through them. Hog Farm Talk 02:38, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Eileen Collins

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (discuss) 17:58, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have recently completed a series on the first six NASA women astronauts. All though were mission specialists - scientists, doctors and engineers who worked with the Space Shuttle payloads. But who was the first woman to actually fly the Space Shuttle and go on to command a mission? Well, we have an article on her too. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 17:58, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Happy to review another astronaut soon. —Kusma (talk) 22:08, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Referring to the missions just as STS-63 etc. is jargon that should better be explained. (at least use "the STS-63 Space Shuttle mission" at first use); I would also prefer to see "mission" or so added to the section titles, but I won't insist on that
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Her ancestors came to America in the mid-1800s, settling in Pennsylvania and Elmira, New York." It is a bit odd that you omit her proudly proclaimed Irish heritage.
    Added "She was proud of her Irish heritage." Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    It is much better now that you included it in the previous sentence (I think I didn't state my point well).
  • God Is My Co-Pilot what is that book? Fate Is the Hunter could also benefit from an explanation, but at least we have a link there
    God is My Co-Pilot is a 1943 novel by Robert Lee Scott Jr. about his exploits in World War II with the Flying Tigers and the United States Army Air Forces in China and Burma. We don't have an article on it, but it is red-linked elsewhere on Wikipedia. We do have an article on the 1945 film though. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Yes, but could you add glosses like "the aviator's memoir"?
    Yes, but that required a couple of additional references. Sourced the gloss to the New York Timesbook reviews. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:31, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "a trainer is not considered an operational aircraft." according to whom? And is this still true today?
    As far as I know. Added a bit about what is considered a major weapons systems. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The sections about the missions could have {{main}} introducing them; this is especially necessary for STS-93 and STS-114 where the link isn't in the first sentence.
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Her husband was trained as a pilot, but worked for the Air Force Academy as golf instructor, but then became a commercial pilot? This sounds odd. Or was the golf instructing just a side gig?
    He was assigned to the USAF Academy's Athletics department as the golf coach. It's a tough job, but someone's got to do it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Well, it is fine if he was no longer serving as a pilot.
    What?! That's not right. Where did that idea come from? He retained his pilot rating and military flight pay, which is worth up to $35,000 a year. He flew the required number of hours to retain it. One annoyance was that after he got married he couldn't fly with Eileen any more, due to a USAF regulation prohibiting spouses flying together (so that their children won't be orphans if they crash). Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:31, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    From the article, I understood he was working only as a golf instructor. —Kusma (talk) 20:30, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    That is correct. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:07, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Collins's selection as one of the twenty-three astronaut candidates (ASCANs) in NASA Astronaut Group 13." garbled
    Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "This was another routine assignment that astronauts did that help familiarise them with the Space Shuttle's systems and procedure" garbled
    Corrected spelling. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Had this occurred, the engines would have had to be replaced" what is "this"?
    Engine startup. Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Probably more later! —Kusma (talk) 09:48, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Overall the article seems to be in excellent shape. Happy to support on prose (but I share the concerns about potential over-reliance on her autobiography). —Kusma (talk) 10:09, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • Why is "bachelor of Arts" have a lowercase "b" but "Master of Science" have an uppercase "M"?
    Typo. The MOS says that the B should be capitalised. Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:44, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Why does the article use DMY dates? I always thought that American articles were meant to have MDY dates.
    MOS:DATETIES: articles on the modern US military, including biographical articles related to the modern US military, should use day-before-month, in accordance with US military usage. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:44, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    TIL. Steelkamp (talk) 16:49, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I will have more comments later. Steelkamp (talk) 05:09, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Space Shuttle orbiter should be linked the first time that orbiter is mentioned.
    Linked on first use. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:47, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "and she attended the El-Ne-Ho summer camp." Is this really that important? There isn't much information about this camp on Google.
    It is related to her mother's work at Elmira, but the connection is not as obvious nor the camp not as well known as I thought it would be. Removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:47, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "But most single-pilot aircraft were combat aircraft..." Could this changed so the sentence doesn't begin with "but". How about: "Most single-pilot aircraft were combat aircraft though, ..."
    Already done. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:47, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "But women were still not permitted to fly combat aircraft, ..." Same as above.
    In this case the two sentences have been joined. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:47, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Pilot Instructor Training (PIT)". Is this acronym necessary, considering it is not used later in the article?
    Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:47, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "and only woman flight instructor at Vance..." Should this be "and the only woman flight instructor at Vance..."?
    Sure. Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:47, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "... Clark Air Force Base in the Philippines, and then to back to Clark, to Diego Garcia again, ..." This is written confusingly.
    Tried to make it clearer. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:47, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • What is a golf instructor? Does it have to do with the sport of gold? I'm confused because it later says Youngs was a commercial pilot.
    Someone who teaches you how to play golf. Linked. The article seems clear enough to me: Youngs was also posted to the Air Force Academy, as a golf instructor. They were married on 1 August 1987. Youngs eventually left the USAF to fly as a commercial pilot for Delta Air Lines, thereby giving himself the flexibility to follow Collins as her career progressed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:47, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Just making sure it wasn't some military thing I hadn't heard of. I was kinda confused how one goes from golf instructor to pilot lol. Steelkamp (talk) 11:11, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Steelkamp (talk) 16:49, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • United States Air Force Academy can be linked in the body.
    Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "which also included Carolyn Huntoon, the Director of Life Sciences; Joseph Atkinson, the Chief of Equal Opportunity Programs". Does this conform with MOS:JOBTITLES?
    I think so. When writing "minister of foreign affairs" or "minister of national defence", the portfolio should be lower cased as it is not a proper noun on its own (i.e. write minister of foreign affairs or, as a proper noun, Minister of Foreign Affairs; do not write minister of Foreign Affairs). What could be clearer? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • There's an inconsistency in the capitalisation of "Orbiter".
    Lowercased. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Some, like one of the other leaking thrusters, could be shut off, but one, R1U, was required for rendezvous." What does "some" mean in this context. This sentence is confusing.
    Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The Mir EO-23 mission commander". Should Mir be italicised here?
    "Italicised. The software should be modified to handle this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Steelkamp (talk) 11:11, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • "was made by the First Lady, Hillary Rodham Clinton". This seems to also go against MOS:JOBTITLES. It should either be "was made by the first lady, Hillary Rodham Clinton" or "was made by First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton".
    The second form is called a false title. De-capitalised. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Should The Tonight Show with Jay Leno be linked?
    There's an article on that? Wow. Linked then. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Although Discovery was not damaged, video of the launch revealed that the problem with debris striking the Space Shuttle had not been resolved.[96] Ten pieces of foam had broken off the external tank during lift off, including a 92-by-279-by-17-centimeter (36.3 in × 110 in × 6.7 in) piece that was the largest ever recorded." This is referring to the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster right? I think you should make that clearer for those who might not know about the circumstances of that disaster.
    Add some editorialising. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The three spacewalks and the transfer of supplies was carried out without problems." Change "was" to "were".
    Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That's it from me. Steelkamp (talk) 08:30, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support. Steelkamp (talk) 12:56, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Ian

Recusing coord duties to review...

  • Copyedited as usual, hopefully I didn't misunderstand anything. The lede read very well. Outstanding points re. prose/content:
    • No reason she shouldn't be proud of her Irish heritage but not sure we need in the article unless it motivated her activities in some way. Can we drop and just say her ancestors came from Ireland in the previous sentence?
      Always seems like an American thing to me. Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:58, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • Don't think sibling names are necessary unless notable, can we just mention sexes and places in the brood relative to Eileen?
      Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:58, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • a logical assignment for a mathematics major -- maybe the source says this but it still reads like editorialising; maybe it can reworded, but I don't think it'd hurt to just drop it.
      Yes, it is what the source says. "As a math major, I would be working in strategic missile targeting." Dropped. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:58, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • She knew one other member of the group, who called themselves the "Hairballs", well -- I went "uh?" at the "well" on first reading; I'm guessing Collins knew others in the group but not well, is that right?
      Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:58, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Referencing-wise, in due course I'll walk through and let you know if I have any concerns with citations to the co-written autobiography, as I did in a previous astronaut FAC (I note that the book under Further reading appears to be quite short and aimed at children)... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:17, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Yes, it is a book for young readers. I have used such books in the past, but only when no better source was available. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:58, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    I have to admit I was initially sceptical of the value of Osprey's books on fighter aces because they were so slim and so profusely illustrated that they seemed little more than kids' stuff, and then I looked at the caliber of authors and their no-nonsense writing and found them to be a very worthwhile source of information. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 17:33, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Source review

  • Not strictly a source review query but are three citations really necessary for Her parents were James Edward Collins and his wife Rose Marie née O'Hara.?
    To avoid creating an extra ref. Combined two of them. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:12, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Sources look reliable, formatting check later.
  • Generally I'm not concerned with using the (co-written) autobiography for uncontroversial info and/or stuff that purely relates to the subject and her thoughts/goals/actions/reactions. More general statements about the Air Force or NASA programs, and especially about distinctions/firsts, I believe should at least be augmented by other sources, e.g.
    • In 1976, women had different fitness standards from the men, but Collins was granted permission to do the morning run with the men, who had to run 12 furlongs (2.4 km) in less than 12 minutes. The training included classes on the history of the USAF and the theory of flight, a ride in a Fairchild C-123 Provider and a flight in a Cessna T-37 Tweet with an instructor.
      Actually, this is still the case. The RAAF wants 2.4 km in 1q2 minutes, and I think the kids may well be wondering where the 2.4 km comes from. Added a reference. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:12, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • the Syracuse AFROTC commander, Colonel Vernon Hagen, informed her that the USAF was now accepting up to ten women from AFROTC programs for pilot training, and offered to put her name forward for this.
      Added a reference that partially covers the. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:12, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • She was one of four women in the class; there were ten men. The purpose of the FSP was to screen out unsuitable pilots before sending them to the more expensive Undergraduate Pilot Training (UPT) program. Collins was almost eliminated on medical grounds due to her left eye and a suspected heart murmur, but was cleared to fly. Training flights were conducted from nearby Hondo Municipal Airport in Cessna T-41 Mescalero aircraft.
      Added a reference about the FSP. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:12, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • The top-ranking members of the class went on to fly single-pilot aircraft, while the others became co-pilots. Most single-pilot aircraft were combat aircraft, which woman could not yet fly,
      Could not find another source for this. Since 1992, those destined for large aircraft trained from the beginning on the T-1. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:12, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • and the only woman flight instructor at Vance between September 1979 and December 1982
      Added an extra source. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:12, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • Pretty well the whole of the fourth para of Air Force career barring the first two sentences (i.e. Now a captain, Collins set her sights on becoming an astronaut. To achieve this goal, she aimed to graduate from the USAF Test Pilot School.)
      Nothing I can do about this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:12, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • During the American invasion of Grenada in October 1983, her aircraft flew troops of the 82nd Airborne Division from Pope Air Force Base in North Carolina to Grenada, and took thirty-six medical students back. Although women were not supposed to fly in combat, the USAF gave her combat pay for the mission, and awarded her the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal.
      Added an extra source for her Air Expeditionary Medal. I can source the use of C-141s for the 82nd and evacuation. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:12, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • Through the Air Force Institute of Technology, she earned a Master of Science in operations research from Stanford University in 1986
      Added an additional reference. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:12, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • Pretty well everything in the second-last para of Air Force career, up to and including but this time a waiver was granted.
    • She was also the most senior member of the class, as she was the only one with the rank of major, which made her the class leader.
      Could not find anything on this, although a major would normally be the most senior member of a test pilot class; usually everyone is a captain. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:12, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I'm going to stop there, pls consider Astronaut career in the same light and look at further referencing for passages that rely solely on the autobiography but are not strictly to do with Collins' own actions/reactions -- happy to have another look after that. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 18:24, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

New Amsterdam Theatre

Nominator(s): Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about one of the oldest surviving Broadway theaters, opened in 1903. Occupying a prime site just off New York City's Times Square, the theater was described by one source as being "near perfection" architecturally. The theater includes an office wing with a Beaux-Arts exterior, as well as various interior spaces in the Art Nouveau style, with a plethora of colorful murals and motifs. The theater largely hosted comedies and musicals, most notably the Ziegfeld Follies, until it became a movie house in 1936. The New Amsterdam was abandoned during the early 1980s, but Disney reopened the theater in 1997 as part of the restoration of the surrounding neighborhood. Today, the New Amsterdam is again one of Broadway's gems.

This page was promoted as a Good Article over a year ago, and the page received a GOCE copyedit last year. I think it's up to FA quality now, and I look forward to all comments and feedback. Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from Vami

Reserving a spot. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 06:35, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • The infobox says the theater hosts Aladdin but the lead says it also hosts Mary Poppins and The Lion King. Shouldn't they also be in the infobox?
  • The theater at one point hosted Mary Poppins and The Lion King, but it no longer hosts these musicals. Mary Poppins is no longer on Broadway, and The Lion King has moved to the Minskoff Theatre. I have rephrased the lead now.
Epicgenius (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The New Amsterdam Theatre was designed by architects Herts & Tallant[15][16][17] and developed for Klaw and Erlanger from 1902 to 1903.[15][16] Couldn't [17] just be appended to the end here, or cut if it doesn't support this sentence? There's not really a need to have three citations in the middle of the sentence here; nothing controversial is happening and two out of those three citations recur at the end of the sentence.
  • The first three stories contain a segmental arch with the theater's entrance while the stories above are for the offices. Wording confuses me; the arch is above the entrance, judging from the picture in the infobox.
    • The arch extends below the marquee and flanks the entrance. Before the marquee was installed, the arch could be seen in its entirety. Epicgenius (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The side walls of the office wing on 42nd Street are also designed in brick because the architects had anticipated that high-rise buildings would be constructed on either side. Recommend "constructed in brick" or a variation thereof since those walls stopped being concepts and started being facts a long time ago.
  • The original entrance was a double door and transom windows made of leaded glass [...] Recommend "with transom windows", with link to Transom (architecture).
  • [...] which runs under the office wing and contains curving Art Nouveau-style floral motifs. Where?
    • The lobby itself contains the Art-Nouveau style floral motifs and is beneath the office wing. It runs along the eastern side of the theater building, extending south from the 42nd Street entrance, but I think this is already explained in the article. Epicgenius (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Above the walls are twelve terracotta panels designed by Roland Hinton Perry, one above each of the marble panels [...] This can be condensed with no loss of quality.
  • The stairs are made of Maryland Cremo marble, veined with green. So this is green-veined white marble?
    • Yes. I've fixed that. Epicgenius (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The stairs contain green terracotta balustrades made with faience glazing, containing panels with representations of vines, flowers, and animals. I usually see "representations of" used in the context of, for example, personified virtues, or the earlier mural about progress. The method of representing a vine, flower, and/or animal seems to me rather direct.
    • I have condensed this sentence. Epicgenius (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The women's and men's lounge are both directly below the reception room [...] "lounge" here should be plural.
  • The old smoking room was converted to a bar during the 1990s. Should be "into a bar", no?
  • The auditorium is at the south end of the building and contains an elliptical plan with curved walls, [...] How does a building contain its plan but by literally containing (a copy of) its plan?
    • Oops. It's an elliptical room, so I meant to say "is elliptical in plan". Epicgenius (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The original color scheme was described in The New York Times as containing a color scheme of "tender pinks, mauves, lilacs, red and gold". Cut the second "color scheme" here. I'd render this as "The original color scheme was described in The New York Times as consisting of "tender pinks, mauves, lilacs, red and gold"."
    • Done - I didn't realize that there was a redundancy here. Epicgenius (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In addition, Issing designed [...] The previous two times Issing has been mentioned, his whole name was given.
    • I condensed the second mention. Epicgenius (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In addition, Issing designed 16 dark-green vine and peacock figures for the proscenium. What is a "peacock figure" here? Images of peacocks, or peacock feather patterns?
    • I meant to say that the peacocks are placed atop a background of vines, so I've fixed this. Epicgenius (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Up to #History now. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 09:50, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Thanks for your comments so far Vami_IV. I have resolved all of these now. Epicgenius (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Who/what were/was the Follies?
  • There are two links to the Great Depression in #History.

Up to #Restoration, but falling asleep in chair. More tomorrow. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • What is the Nederlander Organization and who is Robert Nederlander?

Reading complete. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 14:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Vami_IV, thanks for the additional comments. I've addressed these three issues now. – Epicgenius (talk) 23:56, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Happy to support, then. :) –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 00:01, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Theodosius III

Nominator(s): Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 12:34, 11 January 2023 (UTC); User:UnlimitedleadReply[reply]

This article is about a Byzantine Emperor who had an above-average fate: an erstwhile tax collector who was unwillingly thrust into imperial power as a puppet of the Opsikion theme, he was deposed after just two years of rule but was spared and he and his son were sent into a monastery to live out the rest of their lives. The article has passed GA and ACR. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 12:34, 11 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review—pass per ACR (t · c) buidhe 18:31, 11 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comment by a455bcd9

Do we have a source for File:4KANARCHY20.png? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:11, 11 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

We could use File:ByzantineEmpire717+extrainfo+themes.svg instead: seems correctly sourced (+ in SVG). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:21, 11 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@A455bcd9: Has been replaced as suggested. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 18:48, 11 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 19:13, 11 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments - support

  • "accepting exile into the monastery in return for safety" - "the" monastery makes it sound like the specific monastery in question has already been mentioned, but it hasn't, so I would change it to "a monastery"
    Done; some scholarly sources like to use "the monastery" for the concept, but I suppose it doesn't translate well into laymen's English.
  • I don't like the brackets in " and the troops of the Opsician Theme (Byzantine province)" and would suggest changing it to " and the troops of the Opsician Theme, one of the Byzantine provinces,"
  • In the lead you have both Opsician Theme and Opsician Theme. Both links point to the same article, so only the first link is needed
  • "Leo then marched his troops to Constantinople, seizing the city of Nicomedia, capturing many officials" => "Leo then marched his troops to Constantinople, seizing the city of Nicomedia and capturing many officials"
  • "Leo then marched his troops to Constantinople, seizing the city of Nicomedia, capturing many officials, including his son" - written like this it indicates that he was the son of Leo. Change to "Leo then marched his troops to Constantinople, seizing the city of Nicomedia, capturing many officials, including Theodosisus's son"
  • Move the link on Constantinople to the first paragraph of background rather than the second
  • "The modern historian Romilly Jenkins states that between 695 and 717, the only competent emperors" => "The modern historian Romilly Jenkins states that between 695 and 717 the only competent emperors"
  • "Cyril Mango proposed that it was actually Theodosius' son who became bishop." - I am getting very confused by all the people with the same name. Does Mango suggest that the Theodosius who became bishop was the son of the man this article is about? You already said "Theodosius, the son of Tiberius, was bishop of Ephesus by c.729" Both can't be true.......
    This is actually a really fun example where the scholars make the situation much more confusing; to try to explain it as simply as possible: first, Theodosius III might be the son of Tiberius, and so the two (Theodosius son of Tiberius and Theodosius III) would be identical; this is unlikely for the reasons provided that he would have had to live for much longer than is reasonable. Secondly, it is generally accepted that Theodosius, son of Tiberius, was the bishop in question. Cyril Mango proposes instead that Theodosius Jr. (son of Theodosius III), was the bishop. If Theodosius son of Tiberius and Theodosius III are the same person, then Theodosius III would be the bishop, if not it was Theodosius son of Tiberius, or possibly Theodosius son of Theodosius III. I've changed it to "Cyril Mango proposed that it was actually Theodosius III's son who became bishop, rather than the son of Tiberius", which is hopefully more understandable. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:37, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Theodosius, who Byzantine sources convey" => "Theodosius, whom Byzantine sources convey"
  • "While they had not taken any action to prevent the overthrowal" - "overthrowal" is not a word. It should be "overthrowing"
    wikt:overthrowal and Merriam Webster overthrowal; happy to change it if you view overthrowing as superior, but it currently works.
  • "they took issue with Theodosius' ascension" vs "among other officials, Theodosius's son" - be consistent with your use of 's
  • "After his retirement to a monastery, Theodosius became bishop of Ephesus" - stated as fact, but earlier you said that he only might be the man who became bishop. Or is it that he definitely did, but he might not be the same Theosodius as the one who was bishop in 729? This is all a bit unclear to me......
    Tried to clarify the situation. The two ordering of the sentences made comprehension more difficult; has been rewritten to clarify that if he was the son of Tiberius, he definitely was bishop and probably died in 754; if not, it's a big question mark. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:37, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Can't see any reason for the bold text in note a -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:03, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

Recusing to review.

  • "seizing the throne of the Byzantine Empire". Optional: "of the Byzantine Empire".
Is it okay to keep "of the Byzantine Empire"? I think it makes more sense.
  • "accepting exile into a monastery". Suggest ' accepting exile in a monastery'.
  • "an Islamic empire". "an"? Was there more than one?
There was multiple Islamic empires, though they existed at different points in time.
Then you need 'the'. (As Theodosius was the emperor, even though ...)
Sorry, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say. Can you please rephrase?
He was giving an example; done.
  • "stipulating tribute payment to the Bulgarians." Just a suggestion: 'stipulating the payment of tribute to the Bulgarians.' And in the main article.
  • "Theodosius died at some point after". Everyone does. I suggest a reword.
  • "Sulayman began assembling his forces in the plain of Dabiq". Is it known when?
  • Why is "status quo" in italics?
  • "the Heraclian Dynasty, which had ruled for eighty years." Only people can rule. Perhaps 'which had been in power'?
    Changed to "retained power for"
  • "Theophanes states that" And who might Theophanes be?
  • "commanded the navy to gather at Rhodes to then advance to Phoenix." Is it known why? And where is Phoenix?
    Not particularly; as laid out in the footnote there's three very different locations it could have been.
  • "before sailing for Adramyttium". And where might that be?
  • "he already had an imperial name". Perhaps a footnote explaining?
    Funny story, the literal meaning is that his name (Theodosius) sounded regal, thus he was made emperor; it would be like a person in France being crowned king because their name was Louis. Changed to "imperial-sounding"
  • "He was therefore acclaimed as". I suggest losing "therefore".
  • "Anastasius led his armies into Bithynia". Do the sources specify that there was more than one?
  • "he launched a six-month-long siege against Constantinople". Perhaps "against" → 'of'?
  • "supporters within the city managed to open the gates for him, allowing him to seize the city in November 715." Any way to avoid "city" twice in half a sentence?
  • "reinstate the image of the Sixth Ecumenical Synod, which Emperor Philippicus Bardanes had removed". Reinstate and remove from what? The dome of the Hagia Sophia?
    That's likely, but the source doesn't particularly say so: "to replace the image of the Sixth Ecumenical Synod".
Just this left. You need to tie it to something. I originally thought that you meant on coins - the statement is next to an image of a coin. A reader doesn't even know if all images were banned generally, or if one particular image was removed and reinstated.
@Gog the Mild: I added a link to religious images; should I expound in the article itself? Perhaps change it to "religious icons". Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:02, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
IMO you need to be either vaguer or more specific. The sources probably decide which way you go. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:07, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Gog the Mild: Source says little more than the "replace the image of the Sixth Ecumenical Synod"; so probably vaguer, but not sure how to go about it.
@Gog the Mild: Actually, Ostrogorsky actually gives the location as the imperial palace; has been added and cited, so should now be good to go. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:10, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sorry to keep coming back to this, but I can't find it on page 153 of the work you've cited it to. Could you give me the actual words you are relying on? Gog the Mild (talk) 22:30, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ok, so it's a typo for page 135! Gog the Mild (talk) 22:37, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Gog the Mild: Ah; my mistake, I used the page numbers (from a revised edition) instead of the ISBN-cited numbers; now corrected. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 23:00, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "overthrowal"! Suggest 'overthrow'.
    I believe overthrowal is more correct in this scenario, and don't really see a need for the change.
  • "After his son was captured". Whose name was ...
  • Footnote 1: "the regnal name Constantine (With his full name being "Theodosius Constantinus")." Why the capital W?

Gog the Mild (talk) 22:33, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Gog the Mild: Believe Unlimited and I have done or responded to all. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:00, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Older nominations

Donkey Kong Land

Nominator(s): JOEBRO64 15:01, 8 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This 1995 Game Boy game attempted to bring the groundbreaking pre-rendered graphics of Donkey Kong Country to vastly inferior hardware. Rare was well known for pushing the hardware they were working with to its limits, and Donkey Kong Land is no exception. It's hardly a classic nowadays, despite being one of the bestselling Game Boy games (and the bestselling handheld Donkey Kong game)—the visuals are a muddy mess, making it incredibly difficult to play, and subsequent handheld ports of Donkey Kong Country rendered it obsolete within just a few years. Still, it's hard not to appreciate the craftsmanship and novelty of Donkey Kong Land's ambitions. I recently expanded this article from a stub and I think it satisfies all FA criteria. Hope you enjoy the article! JOEBRO64 15:01, 8 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • Nice to see this here, as I only owned the Game Boy versions myself as a kid. Will review soon. FunkMonk (talk) 15:15, 8 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Not sure how far the sources go into this, but it seems it is lacking some description of what the specific differences were between this and DKC? For example mention of some of the new enemies, like flying pigs, and that the player now just turns into the animals like Rambi instead of riding them?
    • Hi FunkMonk, I've added a mention of the different enemy varieties. As for transforming into animals, that wasn't in Donkey Kong Land, that was the Color version of Country—in Land you still ride them as in the SNES game. JOEBRO64 14:05, 9 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Of course, I played both, so mixed them up. FunkMonk (talk) 22:18, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Some levels feature two animal companions, the rhino Rambi and the ostrich Expresso" Maybe sat "either of the two animals" as it now reads like it's always both in the same levels?
    • Changed to "Some levels feature one of two animal companions" JOEBRO64 21:48, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The project pushed the Game Boy to its limits as its graphics, particularly to construct levels with slopes—rather than square tiles like other Game Boy games—and animate collectibles, required a greater ROM size." This is a rather convoluted sentence with multiple interposed sentences, any way to split it up or simplify?
    • Split it into two sentences—should be easier to read now JOEBRO64 21:48, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "or original as the 1994 Game Boy Donkey Kong" Perhaps worth mentioning earlier that it was the second Donkey King game for the Game Boy?
    • Done JOEBRO64 21:54, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Following Donkey Kong Land's release, Michael Teitelbaum wrote a children's book adaptation, Rumble in the Jungle." A bit difficult to decipher what the relation is between the two. Does it specifically adapt DKL, or is it a general DKC tie in?
    • Yeah it's an adaptation of Land specifically. I've clarified. JOEBRO64 21:48, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Nintendo distributed Land in yellow cartridges" State if this is related to bananas, if the sources do?
    • Done JOEBRO64 14:55, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "(CVG calling it superior)" Wow, on what basis?
    • They (somehow) felt it played better than the SNES game and said it was better for that reason, though they don't go into too much detail. I've clarified this in the article JOEBRO64 14:55, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "and a Game Boy Color port of Donkey Kong Country (2000), which re-uses Land's graphics and audio" Perhaps add something like "to recreate that game" or similar, as now it is a bit unclear?
    • I've amended it to "... re-creates the SNES game using Land's graphics and audio" JOEBRO64 21:58, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@FunkMonk: thank you for the review! I've responded to all points JOEBRO64 14:55, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Support - very nice to see this here (brought good memories), wouldn't have thought I'd see the day. FunkMonk (talk) 15:12, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • File:Donkey_Kong_Land_Screenshot.png: in the FUR the "minimal use" criterion needs improvement, and in "purpose of use" it's not clear how a single file can be used comparatively?

Also noted in passing that there's a harv error in references that needs fixing. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:41, 8 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks Nikkimaria, I've improved the FUR and clarified purpose of use. Fixed the harv error too—one of the references was missing a date. JOEBRO64 14:05, 9 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Looking through the sources. Have seen the Nintendo Life ones, the Retro Video Gamer, the interviews, and most of the ones with links and archives. Haven't looked at the ISSN ones yet. From all I've seen, they are relevant and accurate. Please do NOT take my word alone for it. Horsesizedduck (talk) 22:27, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

La Isla Bonita

Nominator(s): Christian (talk) 03:43, 8 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about one of Madonna's most known, iconic and emblematic songs, as well as my personal favorite. I believe this article meets all the criteria required to be passes as FAC; having corrected all the comments given to me by my fellow editors, I am once again presenting this article with the intention it gets approved as a Featured article.Christian (talk)

  • Two drive-by comments. First, some of the images feel purely decorative without adding any illustrative benefit to the article. The image of Janet Jackson stands out the most, as Jackson has virtually nothing to do with this song. Second, the word "gypsy" can be interpreted as pejorative, and it might be preferable to use the otherwise equivalent term "Romani". Thebiguglyalien (talk) 07:24, 9 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hello @Thebiguglyalien:! Thank you for your comment! Is the Janet Jackson image the only one you're talking about? Cause I believe the ones included on the article are all very appropriate for their respective sections (even the Janet one, as it specifically mentions a record shared with her); also, regarding the use of "gypsy", that's how the source mentions it. Christian (talk) 01:21, 10 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by FrB.TG

Sad that this has continued to get little attention from reviewers. Maybe ping the reviewers from the previous nomination? I previously copy-edited this during its PR; here are my comments.

  • "During the autumn of 1985" - "autumn" is ambiguous, see MOS:SEASON.
  • "the singer and Leonard" - I would just swap these four words for "they" or "the two" as it's clear that we are talking about these two.
  • I am not convinced of the quality of the critical reception section. It lists the opinion of a reviewer after another without much organization. It would benefit from some summarization of similar opinions so we don't have the repetitive "Reviewer a praised this, reviewer b agreed". See WP:RECEPTION to get a better idea of what I'm talking about (you can also check out my recent FA Alejandro (song)#Critical reception and accolades as an example). Addendum: the "Analysis and reception" subsection of music video does an excellent job at this.
  • "In The Madonna Connection: Representational Politics, Subcultural Identities, and Cultural Theory (1998), authors Ramona Liera-Schwichtenberg, Deidre Pribram, David Tetzlaff and Ron Scott, argued" - no comma before "argued"
  • "Sticky & Sweet (2008―2009), Rebel Heart (2015―2016), and Madame X (2019―2020)" - wrong use of em-dash. En-dash should be used here instead.
  • "Jon Pareles, from The New York Times," - both commas unneeded here
  • Dressed in black slacks, a backless black dress, and surrounded by a "gaggle of percussionists and dancers" - avoid the repetition of "dress" in such a close proximity. And it should be "Dressed in black slacks and a backless dress, and surrounded by.." Otherwise it reads as "dressed in surrounded by a", which is grammatically incorrect.

That's it for now. FrB.TG (talk) 10:22, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you for your comments @FrB.TG:! Let me know if how I've modified it is better (I tried to divide the reviews section per theme, as you suggested). And yes it sucks that there's so little activity here 😞😢 Last time, only @ChrisTheDude: gave a support.--Christian (talk) 23:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Alan Rawlinson

Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk) 19:42, 7 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Al Rawlinson was a Royal Australian Air Force fighter ace in World War II who transferred to the Royal Air Force at the end of hostilities. As well as combat and leadership skills, he seemed to possess the sense of humour not atypical of his breed, as evidenced by his choice of aircraft names and codes... Aided by Lex McAulay's short bio (a Kindle book, BTW, hence the citation of section titles rather than page numbers), a few years ago I produced an account of Rawlinson's career that satisfied MilHist A-Class requirements, but as coverage of his later life was next to zero I left it at that at the time. (Oddly, considering his apparently successful career in the RAF, not the Times nor the Independent nor the UK Telegraph carried obits for him as they did for fellow No. 3 Squadron RAAF commander Bobby Gibbes, who died the same year, never served in the RAF, and had a similar official victory score.) In the years since this gained A-Class status nothing seems to have surfaced of a notable post-military career so I think he must've led a very relaxed life and it's time to put his article up for FAC. Tks in advance for your comments! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 19:42, 7 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:45, 8 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Tks Nikki. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:26, 8 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support Just one comment, in the Middle East section. You write that "he posted out to the Middle East": this reads a little oddly – "he was posted" feels more natural. Your decision won't impact on my support.

I have no subject knowledge here, so I do not pass comment on the completeness of sources used, etc, but simply the standard of prose and adherence to the MOS in relation to FA criteria. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 15:14, 9 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Fair enough re. "posted out", happy to alter per suggestion -- tks for reviewing! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 19:27, 9 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Fwiw, I believe "posted out" is a common military term but there's nothing wrong with plainer English. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:38, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Harry

  • Believe you need a closing comma after the post-nominal letters
    • I tend to agree that it makes sense but I think convention (in sources, not just in WP) is no last comma...
  • representing both in football, swimming and athletics representing the school?
    • "representing both schools" you mean?
  • According to biographer Lex McAulay, maybe specify that this was in a biography of Rawlinson specifically?
    • Done.
  • I would consider splitting the Middle East section up; my rule of thumb is usually four chunky paragraphs or five thinner ones between headers but that's just personal preference.
    • That's a tantalising thought, Harry. I don't think I've ever split a Middle East section but I agree this one is quite long (borne partly of my desire to add more context to the tale, fitting Rawlinson's actions into the bigger picture of what the Allies and Axis were doing). If we were to split I think the logical spot would be precisely the half-way point, start of the fifth para, when he moves to Palestine. Thoughts on subheaders? Western Desert campaign for the first part and Syria-Lebanon campaign and return to Western Desert for the second?
  • according to McAulay
  • Any idea what it was about the RAAF that he didn't like, or why the RAF was different?
    • Unfortunately not -- I always like to know why people make transfers like this but this is the best I've found...
  • "as much as possible of the HQFC syllabus was crammed into each sortie" Who is this quoting?
    • Still Rawlinson himself.

—As usual, Ian, very little to criticise. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:38, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Always glad to see you stopping by, Harry. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 19:12, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
More than happy to support. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:53, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Be consistent in when you include publication location
    • I realise I had a location for a website (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) when I didn't for other sites, so removed that -- did you have any others in mind?
      • Banner Books has no location, but the other books do; Flight has no location, but the other periodicals do. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:25, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
        • Tks Nikki -- added. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:52, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Is the author of Oboe Water or Waters? Short and full cite don't match
    • Oops, corrected.
  • Missing full citation details for Morton
    • Very remiss of me, corrected.
  • I'm not able to locate much information about Banner Books - do you know their editorial policy, or is there other information available to assess their reliability? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)