Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2020 February 22

22 February 2020

File:Piano Concerto No. 5 (E flat Major) - Movement 1 - Allegro.mid – Endorse. This is a difficult discussion. Copyright is an area where we're operating at the intersection of the law, and our own policies. Even the lawyers can't agree on what the law says, and we're further hindered by not having direct access to the OTRS ticket. In any case, there's general agreement here that, while it's possible the MIDI file in question is PD, we don't know that for certain. In cases like that, we do the conservative thing and assume they're not. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:45, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.

This is an old one, but it's not clear from the FFD page whether the referenced OTRS ticket included a claim of originality in the content, or merely asserted a claim of copyright over the MIDI file. (Deleting admin no longer active.) Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:38, 22 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No opinion on the merits, but Pigsonthewing you might want to ask at WP:OTRSN for someone to check the ticket. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:52, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly suspect this is copyrighted. The score is in the public domain and it's being played by a piece of software, but if there's any creativity or judgement at all in how the software was set up then it would be easy for whoever made the file to claim copyright on it. Hut 8.5 12:44, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- If you're arguing for a blanket rule that MIDI files of PD scores are copyright, then this is not the forum for that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:52, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - That's not what I said. However if we aren't reasonably sure that something is public domain or available under a free licence then we shouldn't restore it. Here that would include information about how the file was created, which we don't have (the uploader didn't create it themselves). Hut 8.5 20:19, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(OTRS agent) ticket:2011020310016284 does not make any copyright claim for this file. It is a permission statement for c:File:Beethoven Piano Concerto No 5 Movement 1.ogg, c:File:Beethoven Piano Concerto No 5 Movement 2.ogg, and c:File:Beethoven Piano Concerto No 5 Movement 3.ogg as derivative works of File:Piano Concerto No. 5 (E flat Major) - Movement 1 - Allegro.mid, File:Piano Concerto No. 5 (E flat Major) - Movement 2 - Adagio un poco mosso.mid, and File:Piano Concerto No. 5 (E flat Major) - Movement 3 - Rondo - Allegro ma non troppo.mid, respectively. — JJMC89 (T·C) 02:33, 24 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure that in some situations, a MIDI file of a piece in the public domain could be subject to copyright. If any actual work was done other than a direct machine translation of the sheet music that required a human decisions, it may be (and probably is) copyrightable. That said, it sounds like we have a permission statement from the creator. Assuming the ORTS release is otherwise believable, it sounds like there is no copyright based reason to delete this file. Hobit (talk) 16:04, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- The comment from JJMC89 doesn't say there's a permission statement from the creator, it says that there's a permission statement for some other file as a deriviative work of this one. Which is bad, because if this one is copyrighted then it means that one is as well. The deleted description page says the uploader got it from here, which is selling the file for money. I doubt they're OK with someone uploading it to Wikipedia for everyone to use for free. Hut 8.5 18:35, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - That someone is selling a file does not mean that it is not PD; we don't need them to be "OK", if it is PD. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:45, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - We do need evidence that it is PD though. The only evidence provided by the uploader was If I understand correctly, midi's of classical music cannot be copyrighted...Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure they are wrong for the reason I gave above. It's not impossible that the file is PD, but we don't have the necessary evidence. Hut 8.5 22:46, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      - What evidence would you like? Beethoven's death certificate? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 08:45, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        No, details of what went into creating the file. From the legal page S Marshall linked below: a manually encoded MIDI or a captured performance in which the creator chooses instruments, their relative volumes, their pitches, and/or the timing of the composition could arguably succeed at overcoming the originality threshold. If that occurs, the MIDI would be a copyright protected derivative sound recording. We don't know if the creator did any of that. Hut 8.5 18:55, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Meta:Wikilegal/MIDI_Files. I think the original uploader was mistaken about US copyright law and SchuminWeb was right to delete it. I'm afraid that the derivative works also need to be deleted: sorry.—S Marshall T/C 00:40, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- On what basis? As has already been noted, this is a machine rendering of a PD score, not an interpretive performance. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 08:45, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - On the basis that the page I linked to sets out the current WMF legal dept's position on the copyright status of midi files in the US. I am neither a lawyer nor an American, so US law is hardly my bailiwick. I'm very open to the possibility that I'm wrong. Can you provide a source that shows that midi files aren't copyrightable in the US?—S Marshall T/C 10:56, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - You mean the page that says it is arguably questionable whether the use of software alone to translate a musical score into a MIDI file without any input or creative decisions (e.g. instrument types as opposed to file names) would contain more than a trivial amount of originality? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:24, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      - Yes, I do mean the complex and nuanced page that contains that snippet. I think it needs to be read in context, though. But there's hope in that thought, isn't there? Someone may be able to convert Beethoven's score into a midi file using automated tools and upload the result to Commons under a free licence, thereby resolving the whole issue.—S Marshall T/C 15:01, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.