Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 31

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October 31

Category:Sports museums in insular areas of the United States

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge in line with other recent similar nominations. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:34, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:NARROWCAT. Only 1 sub-category in each. –Aidan721 (talk) 18:23, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The territories of the US are not "IN the United States" (as the new merge-to category suggests); instead, they are in the insular areas "OF the United States". Only the 50 states and DC are "IN " the United States. The territories are, instead, possessions of the United States and not part of the United States. As such, the merge-to categories resulting from the herein request wouldn't be a factual reflection of reality as it would be inconsistent with the relationship between the territories and the United States as defined by the US Congress and the Supreme Court of the United States, as well as numerous other organizations and authorities. In fact, even the merge-from category is wrongly named as it presumes the territories are IN the United States (per the current category's own name), which is also incorrect. There's good information about this HERE. Mercy11 (talk) 21:13, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose PR is not in the US. Neither are the other territories. Aidan721 seems to want to go across the board with these nominations. @Aidan721: please see WP:PRUS. In Insular Areas of the US is correct. The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 05:11, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I understand your point here, but by this logic: "in insular areas of the United States" categories should not be parented by "in the United States" categories. There has to be a way to rename in a manner that is inclusive of states and insular areas. –Aidan721 (talk) 20:09, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The states are parented by "in the United States" categories because they are states of the United States. In the same fashion the insular areas should be parented by "in the United States" categories because they are insular areas of the United States. That is, there is a common relationship to the parent category in both cases. So, here isn't anything illogical there.
    A variation of this occurs when the Foo in the United States parent category operates with the "by state" qualifier, that is, when it has the format Foo in the United States by state. In this case, the subcats would would be the likes of Foo in Alabama, Foo in California, etc. Similarly, the corresponding values for the non-state subcats would have a tree for the insular areas with the parent category called Foo in insular areas of the United States (we wouldn’t say Foo in the United States by insular area because the insular areas are not in the United States); in this case the subcats would be Foo in Puerto Rico, Foo in the United States Virgin Islands, etc. Again, the logic is perfectly symmetrical and lines up accurately and in a manner that reflects the real-life relationship between the parent category and the various members --those members that are IN the United States as well as those that are not IN the United States. That is, no renaming is needed, and they way those 6 categories read is the correct naming scheme.
    Additionally, the 6 categories you are proposing to up-merge the 6 subcats in question to, were created only 2 days before this nomination was posted. I would assume that was done to lay the foundation for this nomination. If that's the case, there's nothing wrong with laying the groundwork first. The problem is that up-merging to those 6 categories just created (the ones that read Foo in the United by state or territory) would result in mixing the non-state territories with the states. Since the name of the category does say "states and territories", that might appear innocuous at first except the resulting contents of the those categories would not be compatible with the name of the parent category: the 6 categories names state "...in the United States... by territory" which is just not possible because the territories are not in the United States. Mercy11 (talk) 03:54, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 19:57, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. In is used to describe location. Mason (talk) 14:20, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Smasongarrison: The meaning or usage of IN is not what's the argument here is about. The argument here is, Where are the territories located? That is, are they located IN THE UNITED STATES? And, according to the SCOTUS,[1] they aren't: only the 50 states and DC are IN the US.[2] By definition, a locality (area, region, island, piece of land, etc.) is located "in" the US when it has been INcorporated into it.[3] Since the territories are not INcorporated into the US, they are not located in the US, and so merging them into the categories that read "foo in the United States by state or territory" is a contradiction: an (UNincorporated) territory cannot be both, "UNincorporated" from the US and also "IN" the US. The territories are possessions of the United States but aren't part of it.[4] This is like someone's wallet: it is his possession but it isn't part of him (like his heart, lungs, etc., which are indeed part of him). Mercy11 (talk) 04:27, 9 November 2023 (UTC) Mercy11 (talk) 04:27, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I understood your argument. I just disagree with it. I do not thing we should upend the convention for prepositions for non-defining features of the category nesting structure. Mason (talk) 04:32, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge. Puerto Rico and other present-day and historic territories fit in American categories by state or territory. Alternatively, the insular areas categories can be kept as a child of the category for the United States by state or territory, but that's not really needed when there's just one child category. Place Clichy (talk) 01:05, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge There is no evident reason to segregate US territories when there are insufficient subcategories to do so. In most France-related categories, we include as subcats the corresponding French overseas territory categories (e.g. French Guiana), where they exist. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:24, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlastertalk 21:28, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Harvard College faculty

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 11#Category:Harvard College faculty

Category:American independent film production company founders

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:35, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Overcategorization on small details. There isn't an important distinction between founding an "independent" film production company and founding a "non-independent" film production company in this context, especially given that even the big "non-indie" studios almost always started out as indies before growing into behemoths — even the House of Mouse was an indie when Walt Disney first founded it, kids — and in the case of something like Miramax (a smaller specialty shingle under the umbrella of a bigger non-independent company) it can be highly debatable whether that's really an "indie" in the truest sense of the word. (But yes, the Weinsteins have been filed here.) And the distinction isn't being upheld all that well anyway, as a lot of people in the "non-independent" category were actually founders of indies even without having to think about the "even the big companies were once indies too" problem.
The distinction between an "independent" company and a "non-independent" company just isn't unequivocally clear and objective enough to support two separate categories here — and with 52 articles here and just 94 in the parent, even a merged category would not be nearly large enough to need this for diffusion's sake either. Bearcat (talk) 21:19, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlastertalk 21:21, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:59, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Merge per nom. Mason (talk) 04:33, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Heptalenes

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 11#Category:Heptalenes

Category:Reportedly haunted locations in Kansas City, Missouri

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:36, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. It's already in an appropriate Kansas City, Missouri subcategory. User:Namiba 16:14, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge for now, without objection to recreation of the category when a handful articles will fit. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:47, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge for now per above. Looks like someone has emptied this since it was created. Grutness...wha? 02:39, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wives and girlfriends of association football players

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 11#Category:Wives and girlfriends of association football players

Category:Obsolete writing systems

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 11#Category:Obsolete writing systems

Category:Greek Orthodox Christians from Lebanon

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 11#Category:Greek Orthodox Christians from Lebanon

Category:Daughters of barons

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:40, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Fails WP:CATDEF. Lots more where these came from. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:28, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom, or possibly merge to Category:Nobility of the United Kingdom. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:30, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Delete/upmerge per nom @Marcocapelle. Mason (talk) 12:02, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete/upmerge per nom. –Aidan721 (talk) 20:27, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Smasongarrison and Aidan721: do you mean delete or do you mean upmerge? Or aren't you sure either? Marcocapelle (talk) 20:11, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    My thinking is that we want to take advantage of the information captured in the category: gender, nationality, and perhaps nobility?. I agree that this isn't a defining category. But beyond that I'm not sure what to do with the category; so I guess... manual merge? Mason (talk) 20:35, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    A manual merge might work here, but I think that any people that should be in the Category:Nobility of the United Kingdom will already be in there. So for that reason, I'll support delete. –Aidan721 (talk) 12:52, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Special privileges, social and legal, as well as in some cases special titles, are derived from their parentage, which is quite defining. Merging into "Nobility of the UK" wouldn't work because they are for not noble (in the legal sense) for the most part so that it would be apt to mislead. Atchom (talk) 20:21, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 16:26, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlastertalk 13:43, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per @Atchom OGBC1992 (talk) 10:32, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Heavenly attendants in Jainism

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 11#Category:Heavenly attendants in Jainism

2nd-millennium assassinated politicians by continent

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:43, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose deleting Category:2nd-millennium assassinated politicians by continent (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Propose deleting Category:2nd-millennium assassinated Asian politicians (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Propose deleting Category:2nd-millennium assassinated Indian politicians (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Propose deleting Category:2nd-millennium assassinated European politicians (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Propose deleting Category:2nd-millennium assassinated French politicians (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: Not useful for navigation, after deletion of parent per Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 8#Assassinated politicians by millennium. – Fayenatic London 12:20, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:56, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Support per nom. Mason (talk) 21:33, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Heguri clan

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:44, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose deleting Category:Heguri clan (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: only one person, no interlanguage links Mason (talk) 04:56, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Dobokai family

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:47, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: only one person in this family Mason (talk) 04:55, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per nom (or delete, I have no idea if the target is appropriate). Marcocapelle (talk) 06:50, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    (I'm not sure either if it's appropriate. Delete might be better. idk) Mason (talk) 21:34, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Bocskai family

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:47, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: only one person in this category Mason (talk) 04:53, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per nom (or delete, I have no idea if the target is appropriate). Marcocapelle (talk) 06:49, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Somali royal clans

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:48, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: merge as small cat Mason (talk) 04:50, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge for now, without prejudice to recreation of the category when more articles can be put into it. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:54, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Clans and Houses of the indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 11#Category:Clans and Houses of the indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast

Category:Gotras of Barnwal

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:48, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose deleting Category:Gotras of Barnwal (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: only page is a list of people with the same surname. Mason (talk) 04:43, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Films with screenplays by David Zucker (filmmaker)

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 11#Category:Films with screenplays by David Zucker (filmmaker)

Category:Films directed by David Zucker (director)

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 11#Category:Films directed by David Zucker (director)

Category:Writers from the Colony of Western Australia

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 9#Category:Writers from the Colony of Western Australia

Category:Artists from the Colony of Victoria

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 9#Category:Artists from the Colony of Victoria

Category:Ancrum family

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:50, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose deleting Category:Ancrum family (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: One of the categories kept in Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_October_21#Category:Pettus_family. Of the four members, only two of the articles (Herbert Winslow and John Ancrum Winslow) claim a familial relation to another member of the category. The other two are probably unrelated to Herbert W. and John A. W., and to each other. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:04, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
support per nom Mason (talk) 01:06, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Hypoiodites

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: dual merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 15:50, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose deleting Category:Hypoiodites (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: Category with one member, that does not seem as if it'll be gaining any more in the near future, due to its rapid decomposition. The category for iodites was deleted in 2019, before this was created. Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 April 20#Category:Iodites. Utopes (talk / cont) 00:45, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 18:17, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yea that's probably fine. Utopes (talk / cont) 16:11, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Sangnyeong Choe clan

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 November 11#Category:Sangnyeong Choe clan

  1. ^ Downes v. Bidwell, 182 U.S. 244, pp. 141-142.
  2. ^ Balzac v. Porto Rico, 258 U.S. 298 (1922)
  3. ^ Christina Duffy Bernett. Foreign in a Domestic Sense. Duke University Press. 2001. p.1
  4. ^ Dorr v. United States, 195 U. S. 138.
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