Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 February 4

• Propose renaming Category:Wikipedians who have access to Informit to Category:Wikipedians who have access to Informit (database)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 23:33, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose renaming Category:Croatian writers from Bosnia and Herzegovina to Category:Croat writers from Bosnia and Herzegovina

• This is not about language because all people in Bosnia and Herzegovina are Serbo-Croatian speakers. Originally it is about religion (Islam, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox). Marcocapelle (talk) 08:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Also true. ౪ Santa ౪^99° 08:49, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, admittedly best course of action would be to remove any and all of the ethnicity based sub-cat under Writers of/from Bosnia-Herzegovina. This particular tree is and should be based on nation/country of origin, but I assume with clear-cut ethnic differentiation being Balkans' staple, these ethnicity-based could be re-created. On top of that, (un)fortunately, we have all three top cat Writers sub-categorization: Writers by ethnicity‎, Writers by nationality‎ and Writers by language. At the same time i was writing this nom, i was also (reluctantly) adding Serb Writers of Bosnia. and Bosnia. writers by ethnicity (Bosnia.=Bosnia and Herzegovina) (last being included into Writers by ethnicity). So, yes, Croat/Serb/Jewish/Romani writers of/from Bosnia. are based on ethnicity and now included into Bosnia. writers by ethnicity which is further included into Writers by ethnicity; we have Bosnia. writers which is based on nation/country and is included into Writers by nationality. (Separately we have per language cats Croatian-language writers‎, Romani-language writers, but we generally lack both Bosnian- and Serbian-language writers (I am especially surprised with a lack of Serbian-language writers although I know why - not even language beats ethno-national identity preference among editors)). ౪ Santa ౪^99° 08:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 23:32, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose renaming Category:Serbian Romani writers to Category:Romani Serbian writers

• I had mistaken this for a WP:SMALLCAT nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 23:29, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose deleting Category:Boardwalk Hall (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Camille Chamoun Sports City Stadium (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Propose deleting Category:Events at Camille Chamoun Sports City Stadium (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Croke Park (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Fenway Park (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Gaddafi Stadium (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Melbourne Cricket Ground (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Millennium Stadium (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Sam Boyd Stadium (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Shea Stadium (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Soldier Field (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Sydney Cricket Ground (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:T-Mobile Arena (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Thomas & Mack Center (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Wembley Stadium and Wembley Arena (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Wrigley Field (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Yankee Stadium (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Yankee Stadium (1923) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Boardwalk Hall: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Camille Chamoun: None. (The parent category isn't nominated but is also sparse).

Croke Park: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

• Hogwash! It was not added without discussion. As originally proposed over multiple drafts on Talk in early 2007, it was For example, some very notable locations (e.g. Madison Square Garden) have hosted many sports events and conventions over time; categories for all of these events would not be manageable. That language has been updated after dozens of discussions here.
  William Allen Simpson (talk) 09:10, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, support the split if kept. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please be clear about OCVENUE. The main thrust of it is that we should not categorize venues by their events, hence why we don't have things like Category:WrestleMania venues. That is perfectly sensible and has been affirmed many times. There is one clause that was added to OCVENUE however that says the opposite, that we shouldn't categorize events by venue, which is the part that has no reasonable basis. Why is it fine to categorize an event by the "human habitation" where it occurred but not by the building where it occurred. If anything, the building is even more relevant than the city. If you watch the video of UFC 281, you are looking at the interior of Madison Square Garden the entire time, you're not looking at New York City. Toohool (talk) 22:27, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Enough with WP:ILIKEIT. WP:OCVENUE is reasonably clear. It is the culmination of nearly 20 years of practice, documented and updated by multiple decisions since February 2007. (It originally was called "Locations of specific events".) It should not be overturned because a few editors repeatedly violate consensus in hopes that it will be overturned. (Unlike the currently disreputable US Supreme Court.)
William Allen Simpson (talk) 08:34, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not ILIKEIT, it's an argument based on WP:DEFCAT, the fundamental criteria for existence of categories. The venue where an event occurs will typically be universally discussed in reliable sources, stated in the first sentence or two of the lede, and listed in the infobox. It doesn't get much more defining than that. The deletion argument here consists of nothing more than "because a guideline says so". Your history of the guideline in question is inaccurate, but I will take that to the guideline talk page instead of derailing this CfD further. Toohool (talk) 17:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 22:16, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is not an accurate quote of the original language. Further discussion is underway at the guideline talk page. Toohool (talk) 21:45, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody is arguing "it's not that bad right now", the argument is that it's good, because venue is a defining characteristic for many events. If an event occurs at multiple locations, like a baseball series, then you have a WP:DEFCAT question regardless of whether you categorize by city or venue. 1929 World Series is already categorized in both Category:Sports competitions in Chicago and Category:Sports competitions in Philadelphia. Is that a rationale for deleting both of those categories? Toohool (talk) 21:45, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's the same as Purge and delete, except that nobody would do the purge. So a waste of effort for everybody involved. This is the time for discussion.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 21:30, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fair, in that case we should delete the SMALLCATs. I was merely objecting to the wholesale deletion of categories that had several non-events, like Yankee Stadium. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Understood. I'll modify my !vote to be more clear. It's become obvious that the events were obscuring the valid articles important for navigation. Nearly all of the eponcats will be kept.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 16:34, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 23:21, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose deleting Category:Hush (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Propose deleting Category:Greenlandic mayor stubs (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Propose merging Category:Lists related to philosophical movements to Category:Philosophy-related lists

• Propose deleting Category:Tennis players playing touchtennis (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Propose deleting Category:Theseus Agria F.C. players (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Propose deleting Category:Megas Alexandros Irakleia F.C. players (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Propose deleting Category:Pontioi Katerini F.C. players (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Propose deleting Category:Wikipedians against LLMs (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Propose deleting Category:Royal Brunei Air Force units (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Oppose: Category:Air force units and formations by country contains NUMEROUS subcategories of identical subjects, many of those contain redirects to similar articles. Secondly, a Wing is a major formation of an air force, and the notability of articles (and / or redirects) as LONG since been established! Militum professio scriniarii (talk) 13:58, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The category just duplicates the article. It doesn't serve any purpose. This has nothing to do with notability. —Alalch E. 14:05, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose merging Category:Boxing matches at Boardwalk Hall to Category:Boxing matches in Atlantic City, New Jersey
• Propose merging Category:Boxing matches at Madison Square Garden to Category:Boxing matches in New York City

What do you think about OCVENUE specifically mentioning Madison Square Garden? It would seem to contradict your reasoning for circumventing the policy. "Many notable locations (e.g. Madison Square Garden) have hosted so many sports events and conventions over time that categories listing all such events would not be readable."--User:Namiba 19:48, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Are boxing matches held at Boardwalk Hall or Madison Square Garden defined by their location? Is a boxing match at the Barclays Center demonstrably different than one at Madison Square Garden? The ring, the fighters, the rules, the promotion, and presentation would all be precisely the same.--User:Namiba 19:54, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The theorized example in the guideline anticipates one category for all MSG events with too many entries to be navigable. The nominated boxing subcategory has 31 articles.

These are the preeminent boxing locations in each city: 35 of the 40 articles in AC are in one venue while 31 of the 38 in NYC are in one venue. (A Barclays Center subcat would fail WP:SMALLCAT.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:32, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I see no difference here between these and Wrestlemania venues. Unless OCVENUE is changed, then these should be merged.--User:Namiba 02:12, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You see no difference? They are exactly the opposite of each other. One leads to overcategorization. The other does not. The guideline does not need to be changed in order to make the right decision here; guidelines are descriptive, not prescriptive. Toohool (talk) 03:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 22:18, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is discussion underway at the guideline talk page about whether the venue can be defining. Not sure why you're talking about recurring events in relation to categories that consist entirely of one-time events.
OCTRIVIA can't reasonably be applied to fundamental data like the location or date of an event. By your reasoning, Mike Tyson vs. Michael Spinks would be notable no matter whether it was held in Atlantic City or Kansas City, so shouldn't we delete Category:Boxing matches in Atlantic City, New Jersey too? It would be just as notable whether it was held in 1988 or 1987, so shouldn't we delete Category:1988 in boxing? Toohool (talk) 22:00, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There's no actual discussion underway, mostly WP:WALLOFTEXT, already-discussed arguments, and WP:SARCASM (as above). There's no good reason to continue there (or here).

1. WP:DIFFUSE is by date.
2. WP:CATDEFINING is geographic location of a place: state, province, populated place.
3. WP:NONDEFINING says, "if the characteristic falls within any of the forms of overcategorization mentioned on this page, it is probably not defining."
4. WP:OCVENUE (overcategorization section Venues by event) says, "Likewise, avoid categorizing events by their hosting locations...." Venues are "buildings and structures", not geographic locations.

William Allen Simpson (talk) 07:23, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 10:42, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The guideline's concern is with categories be too large to navigate. This moves the articles into still larger parent catogories by city and doesn't remove the location at all. - RevelationDirect (talk) 17:00, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The guideline does not say anything about size. It states "There is no encyclopedic value in categorizing locations by the events or event types that have been held there."--User:Namiba 23:23, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose renaming Category:Roman-era historians to Category:Ancient Roman historians

• Propose renaming Category:Roman-era Greek historians to Category:Greek-language historians from the Roman Empire

• Absolutely none of them should be from the republican period, the parent categories are specifically Roman Empire. Anything earlier is an editor's mistake. During the hellenistic-era, they mostly wrote in Greek. That's why it's called "hellenistic". Even during Roman Empire, many still writing in Greek. We really really really need to stop categorizing by era, it just makes a mess.
  William Allen Simpson (talk) 16:37, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Modified nomination accordingly.
  William Allen Simpson (talk) 06:02, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1. We should categorize people's occupations by nationality. While I'm tired of fighting triple and quadruple intersection, either name this existing language restricted occupation by nationality, and purge the rest — or delete it.
2. Editors are either ignorant, or doing original research that contradicts centuries of classical studies, intellectual history, and more general education.
3. Looking at the 3 main sub-categories, they aren't "Greek" or "from Greece" (Roman Bithynia, Syria Palaestina, and Jerusalem). They wrote in the Greek-language, and adopted Greek-language sobriquets (according to their articles).
4. As far as the other contents, the restriction is only 2 years old. Either Dimadick didn't purge the content to match the restriction at that time, or more recent editors have ignored it. Maybe editors are using categorization software that doesn't show the explicit restriction text.
5. We really really really need to stop categorizing by era, it just makes a mess.

William Allen Simpson (talk) 15:06, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• You are actually right that many articles in this category are about Greek-language people rather than people from the Greek homeland. So we can either rename to Category:Historians from Greece in the Roman era and purge people not from the Greek homeland, or not purge anything and rename to Category:Ancient Roman Greek-language historians (without Empire). Not sure which is the best. In the latter case the parent Category:Roman-era Greeks should also be discussed. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:56, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Almost all of them aren't from Greece, in fact. I think Category:Historians from Greece in the Roman era would be close to SMALLCAT. Category:Ancient Roman Greek-language historians is ambiguous - does it mean "Ancient Romans who wrote history in Greek" (e.g. Cato the Elder, Quintus Fabius Pictor, and excluding all non-Romans), or "Greek-language historians who wrote about ancient Rome" (e.g. including Appian, Plutarch). Either of these is quite different from the current category, since it would exclude figures like Memnon of Heraclea, who was not Roman and did not write about Rome, but did live in the Roman empire. Furius (talk) 23:00, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Fair points. Then maybe "era" isn't that bad after all: Category:Greek-language historians in the Roman era. (About era, I wouldn't change Category:Greece in the Roman era either.) Marcocapelle (talk) 07:48, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Era is still bad.

1. When the definition of Roman-era matched what students were taught 50 years ago (end of Hellenistic-era in 31 BCE began the Roman-era), that made some basic sense.
2. But editors grab anything from Greece after Macedonia conquest by Rome in 146 BCE as "Greece in the Roman era". Nope, not yet Roman-era, still Hellenistic.
3. So we get categories full of people from anytime anywhere somehow related to Romans.
4. Roman Republic and Roman Empire have very specific places and dates.
5. Roman-era is neither a nationality nor a country. Nebulous just doesn't work for categories.

William Allen Simpson (talk) 11:47, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• It is not people "from anytime anywhere somehow related to Romans" but rather people from Roman-occupied lands i.e. from Roman provinces. That is very clearly defined. I think "Roman era" captures this concept well enough but I am open to a better phrasing. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:52, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  How about "of the Roman Imperial period" rather than "in the Roman era"? As William Allen Simpson says, that has a more precise meaning (though a little fuzzy at the late antique end). Furius (talk) 23:37, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Period or era would not make much difference. I oppose adding Empire or Imperial. That would exclude people in BC centuries who just as well lived in Rome or in Roman provinces. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:20, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is that such a problem? The most significant example of that is Diodorus Siculus, who is generally treated as a "Hellenistic historian", E.G. by the Oxford classical dictionary [1] Furius (talk) 16:34, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 22:26, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 10:41, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks. Despite 2 relistings, it seems just you and me and Furius (who didn't state a position).
  William Allen Simpson (talk) 09:54, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose deleting Category:Books about anthropomorphism (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Propose renaming Category:Buildings and structures by association to Category:Buildings and structures by family
• Propose renaming Category:Buildings and structures in Denmark by association to Category:Buildings and structures in Denmark by family

• Propose merging Category:Hindu temples in Tezpur to Category:Hindu temples in Assam and Category:Tezpur

• Propose deleting Category:Patna Medical College Hospital alumni (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Britain’s Top Doctor (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Ophthalmic Anaesthetist (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Elderly anaesthesia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Bihar National College alumni (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Khoo Teck Puat Hospital Doctor (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Fellow of Royal College of Anaesthetists London (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Propose deleting Category:Female models born in 1960s (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Propose deleting Category:Placenames in the United Kingdom consisting of four words (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

"Defining characteristic of the wider cultural context of the landmass on which they exist" is not a basis for a category under our categorization rules. You admit that it's not a defining characteristic of the place — but being a defining characteristic of the place is the test that a category for the places has to meet in order to be allowed to exist. A better idea for a concept like this, if you think it's important, is a list, in articlespace rather than categoryspace, which can cite sources to demonstrate that other people agree with you about its importance. Bearcat (talk) 13:50, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, thanks for the explanation. Ridiculopathy (talk) 19:17, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose deleting Category:New Orleans Breakers stadiums (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Propose deleting Category:Boston Breakers (USFL) stadiums (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Adding Category:Boston Breakers (USFL) stadiums as it also has only 1 entry and no longer exists.--User:Namiba 13:32, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Support that one too. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:57, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose deleting Category:Religious civilizations (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Propose deleting Category:Platonic deities (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Propose deleting Category:Heydar Latifiyan (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)