Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yoron language

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Dennis - 2¢ 20:54, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yoron language

Yoron language (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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This is one of several language articles recently created by Nanshu that is a violation of WP:SYN and includes information that contradicts other articles on Wikipedia and bases much of its existence due to a separate listing in the Ethnologue and a single sentence entry in Oxford's linguistics dictionary that I cannot remember the exact title to. There was a large discussion at WT:LANG to effectively censure me for having the gall to contest Nanshu's proposed new articles.

Yoron's dialect is one of the few in the set of new articles (amongst those heavily edited to favor Nanshu's new classification) that has some possible merit, but as with Tokunoshima language, there's little acknowledgement as this as a language separate from others (in this case Kunigami language) and much of the sources used define what is spoken on Yoronjima as a dialect (方言); cursory searches in Japanese for "Yoron language" (与論語) bring up various websites and other sources that simply classify it as somewhat identical to what's spoken in the northern region of Okinawa (the Kunigami language). In the end, Wikipedia does not need to host the WP:SYN violating research of Nanshu to focus exlusively on his new classification system and the IPA tables that are tenuously sourced. —Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:49, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:59, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:59, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Whether something contradicts other articles on Wikipedia is immaterial: Wikipedia is not a reliable source, and secondly, in a field where even reliable sources contradict each other (see [1] for background) Wikipedia should reflect this diversity rather than endorse one view. Whether you consider Yoron and other Ryukyuan idioms dialects or languages (sources describing Yoron as a language include the International Encyclopedia of Linguistics published by Oxford University Press; hardly a fringe group), there are plenty of sources for an article on Yoron, and there is broad agreement that Yoron is not mutually intelligible with Kunigami or other Ryukyuan languages/dialects. In addition to the sources currently cited, there is detailed coverage in secondary sources like Uwano, Zendo: "The multi-pattern accent system of the Higashi-ku dialect of Yoron" (listed here); Yamada, Minoru: "Usage of nominals of the Yoron dialect" (1981)[2] along with sociolinguistic coverage like Noguchi's "Dialect Acquisition and Code-switching on Yoron Island" (1987). Andreas JN466 19:12, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  There is a single sentence about the Yoron "language" in the IEL. Not enough to satisfy separate coverage. This article is a content fork of a hell of a lot of other content on the project puffed up to look important on its own.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:40, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  This is a straw man, as no one says there should be an article because of that short paragraph in the International Encyclopedia of Linguistics. I only mentioned the International Encyclopedia of Linguistics for the fact that Yoron is described as a language there that is mutually unintelligible with the other Ryukyuan languages. It's the sum total of sources available that determines notability, and whether you think this is a dialect or a language, Yoron has detailed sources available that can be summarised in Wikipedia because it has been and is being studied in depth. Andreas JN466 09:03, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  But everyone is basing the fact that there should be a separate article on this and the other languages because they happen to be mentioned minimally by Ethnologue and the International Encyclopedia of Linguistics. Yoron is arguably the only out of this group that Nanshu created that has any chance of separate coverage but most of it appears to be extremely minimal.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 15:53, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  Ryūlóng, what is your take on the claim that Yoron is not mutually intelligible with Kunigami or other Ryukyuan varieties? --JorisvS (talk) 16:25, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  I am not personally sure on this matter. Out of all of the languages Nanshu created articles for, Yoron is the only one that could possibly have its own suitable article, but searches in Japanese bring up more crossover, and more coverage of Yoron as a dialect than a language unto itself.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:48, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  But of course Japanese-language sources tend to refer to Ryukyuan languages as dialects of Japanese, which just is not true and which makes us having to take that specific part at least with a grain of salt. --JorisvS (talk) 17:16, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  I looked up 与論語 and 国頭語 together and the first result is a video of people ostensibly speaking Yoron-ese but it's subtitled as being also Kunigami.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:10, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. As I've cited in the article, the langauge in question even has two full-scale dictionaries. Okinoerabu–Northern Okinawan / Okinoerabu–Yoron–Northern Okinawan / Kunigami is an artifact of comparative studies and its existence is questioned by Pellard (2010) among others. There are numerous linguistic sources for Yoron. The titles of these papers demonstrate that those who focused on the language have never identified it with Kunigami. And whether Yoron is a dialect (dialect of what, BTW?), language, language variery or whatever has nothing to do with the deletion discussion. It only affects the article's title (i.e., possible renaming). --Nanshu (talk) 14:09, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  All of those sources say "dialect" and not "language (unto itself)". And there are minimal sources that discuss Yoron as a language unto itself, not to mention your claims of no intersectionality with Kunigami can be dismissed as the Japanese don't use "Kunigami go" or "Kunigami hougen" for the name of the language identified as "Kunigami".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 15:14, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, per above sources and rationale. The evidence presented shows this is a documented language worthy of an article. HOT WUK (talk) 16:16, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.