Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vishwananda

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. This realistically should have been a speedy keep under criterion #1, as "I am losing a content dispute" is not a rationale for deletion. But certainly as it stands, the result here is clearly that this subject is notable. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:56, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Vishwananda

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This article is often being used as an attack page on "Vishwananda", which a disrespectful way to address Paramahamsa Vishwananda. Many of the citations are linked to tabloid-like websites and websites that have a personal bias towards a Hindu Guru (e.g. Evangelical Church in Germany). I have been trying to edit this article by being objective, hence I have not removed the sexual allegations about "Vishwananda", but I have tried added factual events, such as him being the first person born outside of India to be initiated as a "Mahamandaleshwar" and have linked to the news article about this. The other editors, namely Hanumandas, have undone all the objective facts about this due to their own motive of attack. The tone of the article is also very questionable, specifically, those of Hanumandas. I can add more clarification if necessary and more information to state my case if needed. Shiva is Love (talk) 12:51, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am the original author of the article, I think it should not be deleted, I have given my reasons here Talk: Vishwananda#AfD Hanumandas (talk) 15:21, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

DELETE

This article appears to be in violation of Wikipedia's Biographies of Living Persons (BLP) Policy due to the presence of libelous statements and unsubstantiated claims about the individual discussed. In March 2022, the Hamburg District Court ruled against certain media allegations related to sexual misconduct. It's essential to highlight that someone's sexual orientation and consensual relationships should not be misrepresented or falsely equated with predatory behavior. This kind of misrepresentation is not suitable for a platform like Wikipedia, which holds significant influence on public perception.

The BLP policy emphasizes that biographies of living persons should be approached with caution and respect for the individual's privacy. Potential harm from inaccurate claims can have far-reaching effects on the subject's reputation.

Additionally, the article's heavy reliance on primary sources, including personal blogs and social media, is concerning. While primary sources can occasionally be relevant, their use should be judicious and clearly attribute the original source's statements.

Examples of potentially biased writing in the article include:

DELETE

@Hanumandas has indicated that the article is unbiased. However, here are some lines from the article that may suggest otherwise, along with revisions and editing history records:

"According to other reports, he became a disciple of the controversial Sathya Sai Baba."

The assertion that he became a disciple of Sathya Sai Baba lacks any concrete sources or reports. Labeling Sai Baba as controversial reflects the author's personal bias and doesn't consider that, while disputed by some, Sai Baba remains a revered figure for many.

"Yet Babaji is a mythical religious figure, therefore there is no evidence of him belonging to a particular swami tradition."

Babaji, as a spiritual figure, is often referred to in revered, mystical terms within the Hindu tradition. However, his association with specific spiritual lineages, such as Kriya Yoga tradition, has been documented in notable spiritual texts like Paramahansa Yogananda's "Autobiography of a Yogi". These sources offer the needed evidence of his capacity of association with a particular tradition, like the one of vishwananda.

"Like Sai Baba, he is also a 'miracle-worker'."

Associating the term 'miracle-worker' solely with Sai Baba appears biased. Miracle-working has been attributed to spiritual leaders and saints across various religions and traditions, including Christian saints, Sufi Saints, Hindu saints, etc.

"Critics claim that he bought the title (mahamandaleshwar) for 30,000 dollars."

The referenced sources (2 and 6) do not contain any evidence to support the assertion that the title was purchased. The title is conferred by an Akhara in India, a highly respected institution. It's akin to claim a Nobel Prize was bought by the subject without any reliable references, just to understand this title belongs to a different tradition and culture and cannot be simply bought. This is clearly "self knowledge" and 100% biased statments

"Vishwananda claims to be a master of kriya yoga in the tradition of Mahavatar Babaji..."

Vishwananda has developed a yoga technique: Atma Kriya Yoga, citing its origins from Mahavatar Babaji. There aren't normally certificates for spiritual knowledge transmitted from guru to disciple. Lahiri Mahasaya, a revered yoga master, similarly claimed to have received Kriya Yoga techniques from Babaji, as stated in the wikipedia article about him, and without any controversial argument against that.

"The movement claims to have between 30 and 50 centres or temples worldwide , some of them rather small”

The terms "small" and "large" are subjective and vary across different contexts. How can you claim a "non biased" comment? Why does not say "some of them really big?" Regardless of size, each center or temple contributes with a public place of worship for thousand of followers around the world.

The Bhakti Marga movement, by the end of 2022, officially reported the establishment of 76 temples, ashrams, and centers located in 37 countries spanning 5 continents. This includes 12 ashrams, of which 5 span an area greater than 20 hectares, 55 temples (comprising both Bhakti Marga public and private temples), and 22 centers. Each of these locations, irrespective of its size, serves as a significant place of worship, catering to thousands of followers globally.

"On March 17, 2018, Bhakti Marga carried out a group chanting at the Buchenwald concentration camp..." "Critics accused Bhakti Marga of exploitation and relativization of the holocaust."

Bhakti Marga's "Om chanting" at various concentration camp locations was performed with due permissions from the respective authorities. According to the news articles, it was an attempt to transform negative energies and promote healing, not to exploit or trivialize the Holocaust's horrors. Critics indeed exist, but the initiative also received positive feedback, contributing to a balanced perspective. The goal was not to 'clean' the concentration camps but to spiritually contribute towards acknowledging, understanding, and healing the wounds of history.

Some key messages about the OM chanting in the concentration camps from the directors of the place:

“The Jewish community in Thuringia sees this as a means of fighting racism.

The spokesman for the memorial, Rikolau-Gunnar Lüttgenau, explains that religious events on the Ettersberg near Weimar are not uncommon and are usually approved if they do not serve the mission and do not question the crimes of the past.

He says: “We actually have Buddhist meditations, too, alongside Catholic and Protestant services. Because: Religious references to these sites of former concentration camps are almost constitutive for their history as a memorial. Because this story, which irritates you so much, throws you back on your faith. And we take the position that we do not interfere in the beliefs of the respective group. And there has to be some form of confrontation with the place.”

“Nevertheless, the group also booked a guided tour in Buchenwald and invited representatives of the Thuringian Jewish community. Its chairman, Reinhard Schramm, will come and tell about his family history, about extermination in German concentration camps.”

"These are my partners"

Reinhard Schramm says: "If someone consciously wants to go to a memorial site where 56,000 people were murdered and if they work to ensure that something like this shouldn't happen again, then that's enough basis for me to talk to them. These are people fighting racism and xenophobia – these are my partners!”

https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/kz-gedenkstaette-buchenwald-chanting-wider-die-schuld-100.html

The Article Picture, why is it in black and white? is clearly giving to the article a different tone

"Vishwananda also pretended to be the bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church"

Unsourced - broken link

The current portrayal of the article is far from neutral.

Any discerning editor who reviews the content can immediately recognize the negative undertone throughout. The narrative suggests that those who have contributed might harbor biases against Vishwananda, which raises concerns about whether Wikipedia's guidelines and legal standards have been respected. This representation is detrimentally affecting both the Bhakti Marga organization and Vishwananda.

Online, in social media, in youtube, hundreds can attest to the positive influence and aid they have received from Vishwananda. However, a reader of this article might be left with an unjust impression, inferring that Vishwananda's intent is malicious. I urge for a reconsideration of this content.

BROKEN LINKS and non reliable sources

The presence of broken links both in the Wikipedia article on Vishwananda and within the cited "reliable sources" is a significant issue, (especially the article https://www.ezw-berlin.de/publikationen/artikel/bhakti-marga-in-der-kritik/)

These "reliable sources" appear to be primary sources, which is not in line with Wikipedia's guidelines that emphasize the use of secondary or tertiary sources. And the website belongs to an organization who is publicly against the faith of vishwananda:

[23] - Broken Link: https://www.ardmediathek.de/video/doku-und-reportage/just-love-sektenaussteiger-packen-aus/hr-fernsehen/Y3JpZDovL2hyLW9ubGluZS8xNjAzNDU
[28] BROKEN LINK: https://www.spiegel.de/kultur/hr-doku-ueber-missbrauch-ein-us-amerikaner-wird-zum-opfer-erklaert-doch-der-sender-hat-nie-mit-ihm-gesprochen-a-880b2009-1999-430e-b190-7bfdd1d52094/
Broken link: Youtube video removed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nsAdD63ZSU
BROKEN LINK: http://jagadanandadas.blogspot.com/2015/03/swami-vishwanandasbhakti-marga-and.html (They removed the article)
BROKEN LINK: Youtube video removed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY6RSHA3lfY&t=14s
BROKEN LINK: Youtube video removed - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ylnHGlDOHU Video unavailable
BROKEN LINK: Youtube video removed - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw7m97DL3NA&t=29s
BROKEN LINK: Youtube video removed -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKlcMfnUpi0
BROKEN LINK: http://www.gurumindcontrol.blogspot.com/
BROKEN LINK:: https://tellthetruth123.wordpress.com/2009/04/16/hello-world

Non reliable Sources, anyone can just create a blog and write against vishwananda and the author took them as reliable sources:

Blog primary source: https://bhaktimargacritics.wordpress.com/
https://falsevishwananda.wordpress.com/2018/07/09/deutsche-ubersetzung-von-vishwananda/
BLOG primary source: https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/hindus-swami-vishwananda-criticism-and-controversy.201071
BLOG primary source http://vishwanandawarning.blogspot.com/

These broken links and primary sources do not meet Wikipedia's standards for reliable sourcing, and their use in the article undermines its credibility and neutrality.

Impact and Implications:

Wikipedia is a widely recognized platform, and it's crucial that any article, especially those about living persons, adhere to the highest standards of neutrality and accuracy. The potential harm to an individual’s reputation from misrepresentative information is considerable.

Upon reviewing the conversation, AryKun's comment demonstrates a potential bias and emotional attachment to the subject matter. His choice of language suggests a predetermined conclusion about the subject, which calls into question his ability to approach the topic with an open mind and objectivity. Neutrality is paramount, especially on platforms like Wikipedia where accuracy and impartiality are highly valued.

"SNOW Keep per above. Very misguided nom, we can't help the fact that the subject, like most other gurus, is a dirtbag and we cover him as such. AryKun (talk) 14:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)" Giro 194 (talk) 20:38, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you think that the article is very biased, rewrite the biased material in a neutral manner, and we’ll revdel the offending revisions. Most of what you pointed out is reported in reliable sources, and so including the fact that he thought that chanting om in a concentration camp was a good idea is definitely within the bounds of NPOV. I have a bias regarding the whole topic area of religion and especially concerning godmen, which is why I’m not editing the article. My !vote, however, is completely unaffected by bias: any way you look at it, this is not the kind of unambiguous attack page that can be speedy deleted. At worst, it is a somewhat impartial article about a clearly notable subject that should be improved through regular editing. AryKun (talk) 02:29, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Giro 194 There were just 4 links broken out of 32, which I fixed. All other links, and most of the inappropriate links you mentioned, are from another website. Hanumandas (talk) 08:03, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep

The only ones taking offense here are obviously "followers" of said subject with no history

of writing or editing articles on Wikipedia. If there is a bias to be found - look no further. 3fiddy (talk) 23:01, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Religion, Hinduism, Mauritius, Germany, and Switzerland. Skynxnex (talk) 15:32, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Hanumandas (talk) 18:30, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(Note: @Shiva is Love left a message on my talk page asking me to look at this article; iirc we haven't interacted before and I'm not sure where they found me.) Keep, an article being potentially biased or disrespectful is not a reason to delete. If there are specific concerns about content those should be addressed directly, no via deletion. Plenty of sources, I haven't done a detailed analysis but it looks like reputable papers are covering at minimum his various controversies. Rusalkii (talk) 19:00, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please look here Talk:Vishwananda at the last two submissions by [[User:Hanumandas]] and myself. The reason I put in the discussion for deletion is due to the undo-ing of my additions to the article (for example, Vishwananda becoming the first Hindu born outside of India to receive the title "Mahamandaleshwar" which I cited). I have attempted to add in content that makes the article neutral and balanced, as per the Biography of living persons policy. I am not trying to delete the information about the controversies, I simply believe the article is "one-sided" and thus my hopes is that it becomes objective as it should be on Wikipedia. I have been very confused in the process of trying to get this sorted out on Wikipedia/find the proper course of action and am not sure how I found your contact. Shiva is Love (talk) 19:10, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you've both talked about it and can't come to an agreement, I suggest Wikipedia:Third opinion - asking an uninvolved editor for help who is interested in moderating similar disputes. I know nothing about this area and don't have time to sort through the sources right now, so I'm not a great person to ask for help here. Rusalkii (talk) 22:08, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

He probably found you at my talk page. Hanumandas (talk) 12:32, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SNOW Keep per above. Very misguided nom, we can't help the fact that the subject, like most other gurus, is a dirtbag and we cover him as such. AryKun (talk) 14:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Subject is clearly notable. The only reason we would delete the article is if he were not. This is a content dispute, which should not be taken to AfD for resolution. Consider dispute resolution. Skyerise (talk) 12:11, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This was never a great article (despite some of my attempts to improve it) but it's headed in a right direction now, especially after Skyerise's edits. Not an attack page.—Alalch E. 15:47, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Skyerise, @Rusalkii

Commendable effort in refining the article. However, presently, the narrative hints that Vishwananda moved from Mauritius to Europe primarily for controversy. But the facts shows also that Vishwananda's organization keeps growing rapidly, so maybe there is more to the story.

Kindly review the following links for inclusion to maintain a more neutral point of view/narrative:

Vishwananda belongs to the Bharadwaraj Gothra Lineage

His parents belonged to the Bharadwaj-gotra, a noteworthy brahmana family lineage that dates back thousands of years from Bihar (India).

https://www.apnnews.com/paramahamsa-vishwanandas-enlightenment-and-his-early-years/

Vishwananda has more than 10.000 disciples (devotees) worldwide

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/nashik/swami-vishwananda-becomes-first-mahamandaleshwar-from-outside-the-country/articleshow/49006144.cms

https://www.nyoooz.com/news/nashik/202688/swami-vishwananda-becomes-first-mahamandaleshwar-from-outside-the-country/

Vishwananda loved to spend time singing religious songs, which inspired his childhood friends to participate in religious worship. At the age of 14, he first experienced samadhi, a deep meditative yogic-state of total immersion. In 1994, at the age of 16, he dropped out of school and began traveling in India and Kenya

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/nashik/swami-vishwananda-becomes-first-mahamandaleshwar-from-outside-the-country/articleshow/49006144.cms

https://www.apnnews.com/paramahamsa-vishwanandas-enlightenment-and-his-early-years/

https://blossomingoftheheart.wordpress.com/2010/10/02/sri-swami-vishwananda/

https://www.speakingtree.in/article/we-take-simplicity-for-granted?CMP=share_btn_wa

https://paramahamsavishwananda.com/biography/#early-years

Interview to Vishwananda’s sister https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-kUQgiJe5w

Interview with his father https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1EPU1ZjiI

According to his travel agent since 2001, Vishwananda began giving blessings (darshan), which he continues to give to this day. As of 2022, Vishwananda has conducted 331 Darshans in 46 countries and 220 cities, during which approximately 133,000 people have received his blessings.

From 2020 to 2022, 385 online Darshans were held, with more than 288,000 participants

https://pages.bhaktimarga.org/statistics

Interview to his travel agent, Yamunashree Heike with the Frankfurt Magazine Lebens|t|räume https://www.lebens-t-raeume.de/produkt/2023-07/

(I can provide the PDF)

In 2004, at the age of 26, he opened his first ashram in Germany, in the small village of Steffenshof.

https://www.lifepositive.com/from-springen-to-vrindavan/

In 2014, he opened a new ashram in honor of the god Rama in Riga, Latvia, headed by Swami Sharada and he named the temple, Satchitananda Vigraha Ramachandra.

https://bhaktimarga.lv/about/temple/?lang=en

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bhaktimarga/48723699792

In 2015, he founded the Just Love Festival, an international festival of Hindu music and vegan food dedicated to promoting vegetarianism, worship, love and positivity in society.

https://bharatgaurav.in/bharat-gaurav-paramhamsa-sri-swami-vishwananda-effortlessly-connecting-principles-of-eastern-spirituality/

https://justlovefestival.org/

More about MAHAMANDAELSHWAR

In 2015, Vishwananda received the title of Mahamandaleshwar during the Kumbha-Mela in Nasik. Literally, it translates as "abbott of great and/or numerous monasteries or "abbott of a religious district or province" (maha - "great", mandala - "district", Ishwara - "head", "ruler"). Nirmohi Akkhara, a spiritual governmental institution based in Ayodhya and composed of several Hindu leaders and monks, conferred this title on Vishwananda. The title is conferred on those who have shown "outstanding leadership and maintain the Hindu way of life."

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/nashik/swami-vishwananda-becomes-first-mahamandaleshwar-from-outside-the-country/articleshow/49006144.cms

https://bharatgaurav.in/bharat-gaurav-paramhamsa-sri-swami-vishwananda-effortlessly-connecting-principles-of-eastern-spirituality/

https://www.nyoooz.com/news/nashik/202688/swami-vishwananda-becomes-first-mahamandaleshwar-from-outside-the-country/

On July 11 2015, Vishwananda was awarded the "Peace Pole" by The World Peace Prayer Society "for his “outstanding achievements in world peace over the past 20 years."

https://www.worldpeace.org/2015/10/peace-pole-gifted-to-swami-vishwananda-at-bhakti-marga-in-frankfurt-germany/

In July 2016, Paramahamsa Vishwananda received the Bharat Gaurav Award "for outstanding achievement" from the British House of Parliament

https://bharatgaurav.in/bharat-gaurav-paramhamsa-sri-swami-vishwananda-effortlessly-connecting-principles-of-eastern-spirituality/

https://www.ibtimes.sg/paramahamsa-vishwananda-says-india-feels-like-home-me-69872

In December 2016, experiencing rapid growth in his mission, he traveled to India with a group of swamis and swaminis to inaugurate his new ashram, Shree Giridhar Dham in Vrindavan, India. The ashram is dedicated to Goddess Yamuna Maharani and God Krishna Giridhari

https://bhaktimarga.in/shree-giridhar-dham/

https://www.lifepositive.com/from-springen-to-vrindavan/

In April 2020, Vishwananda introduced the new mula mantra of his sampradaya for his followers and devotees: "sri vitthala giridhari parabrahmane namaha". The mantra calls for protection and love. Prior to 2020, the main mantra for his followers was “om namo narayanaya”.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5Goai3YU6E

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/new-mantra-of-bhakti-marga-sect.238061/

From 2020 to 2023 he opened many other ashrams such as Vitthala Panduranga (Argentina, 2020), Vitthala-Kshetra (Italy, 2022), Srinivasa Ashram (UK, 2022), Vitthala Devalaaya (France, 2023), Sri Sri Radha Giridhari (Brazil, 2019), Paranitya Narasimha Ashram (USA, 2023).

https://bhaktimarga.com.ar/ashram/

https://www.facebook.com/ashrambhaktimargaitalia/

https://bhaktimarga.co.uk/srinivasa-temple-essex/

https://www.facebook.com/bhaktimargafrance/?

https://bhaktimarga.org.br/ashram/

https://ashram.bhaktimarga.us/

https://www.mytwintiers.com/news-cat/top-stories/germany-based-spiritual-group-buys-former-catholic-church-in-west-elmira/

In 2022, Vishwananda was honored with Start Up India magazine's "Revolutionary Guru 2022" award, along with other prominent personalities

https://www.ibtimes.sg/paramahamsa-vishwananda-says-india-feels-like-home-me-69872

https://www.timebulletin.com/bhavas-refer-to-the-spiritual-emotions-we-experience-in-our-relationship-with-god-paramahamsa-vishwananda/

There are many other books to consider:

Talks 2005. - 2008. - P. 120. - ISBN 978-3940381033.

Just Love: Questions & Answers (English). - 2012. - Vol. 1. - P. 230. - ISBN 978-3940381316.

Just Love: Questions & Answers. - 2012. - Vol. 2. - P. 200. - ISBN 978-3963430381.

Just Love: Questions & Answers. - 2012. - Vol. 3. - P. 204. - ISBN 978-3963430435.

Just Love: The Essence of Everything. - 2012. - Vol. 1. - P. 340. - ISBN 9783940381194.

Just Love: The Essence of Everything. - 2012. - Vol. 2. - P. 344. - ISBN 9783940381200.

Just Love: The Essence of Everything. - 2012. - Vol. 3. - P. 416. - ISBN 9783940381224.

Inspiration:Timeless Stories of Divine Love. - 2015. - Vol. 1. - ISBN 978-396343030206.

Sri Guru Gita: Commentary on the great mysteries of the Guru-disciple relationship (English). - 2015. - P. 324. - ISBN 978-3940381439.

Sri Gopi Gita (English). - 2016.

The Essence of Shreemad Bhagavatam (English). - 2016. - ISBN 978-3940381521.

Shreemad Bhagavad Gita: The Song of Love (English). - 2016. - P. 988. - ISBN 9783963430008.

Giridhari: The Uplifter of Hearts (English). - 2016. - P. 112. - ISBN 978-3940381606.

Divine Mother: The Way Back to Divinity (English). - 2017. - P. 172. - ISBN 978-3940381620.

Guru: The Rarest Life Treasure (English). - 2017. - P. 168. - ISBN 978-3940381613.

Sri Hanuman Chalisa: Commentary on the Praises to the Eternal Servant (English). - 2018. - P. 124. - ISBN 9793963430152.

Maha Lakshmi: The Secret of Prosperity (English). - 2019. - ISBN 978-396343030343.

Just Love: A Journey into the Heart of God (English). - 2021. - P. 424. - ISBN 978-396343030770.

Mukunda-mālā-stotram: Commentary on Kulaśekhara Alvar's Offering of Love and Surrender (English). - 2021. - P. 163.

Bhagavad Gita: Essentials. - 2021. - P. 308. - ISBN 978-3963430831. VarahaDas (talk) 00:27, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not my problem. I clean up articles of this type; but I don't write them. Skyerise (talk) 00:30, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, of the sources you list, pretty much the only usable ones are Times of India and AP News. Most of the rest wouldn't be acceptable. We are not here to promote the subject. If any of his books are mentioned in those news stories, they could be added to the selection of books. That's about it. Skyerise (talk) 00:36, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.