Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Special Control Service
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 01:05, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Special Control Service
- Special Control Service (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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- No real evidence for the existence of this organization
The article was created (and most of it written) from a guy called Dimitri Khalezov. Khalezov is a conspiracy theorist and sells a book about the destruction of the WTC with nuclear bombs. He says he was a officer in this soviet military organization. I suppose he created the article so that people find some evidence that this organization he talks about really exist. I don't find any other evidence of this organization anywhere. I looks all made up. Even the link that are added to the page lead to non-loading pages or to nonsense sites. This fraud shouldn't be in the wikipedia so I suggest deletion. Isley Constantine (talk) 06:41, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 20:54, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 20:54, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 20:54, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Keep. The nomiator is incorrect. Whatever Khalezov's fringe claims, the organisation exists and is the counterpart of several US DoD organisations that do the same thing (principally, I believe, the Air Force Technical Applications Center). It is listed in Scott and Scott's Russian Military Directory which I'm quite happy to e-mail anybody who has any doubts. Try Scott and Scott's The Armed Forces of the Soviet Union or Federation of American Scientists for further data on the SCS. A similar Russian writer who wrote authoritatively about the organisation he knows but also esposes fringe theories is 'Viktor Suvorov', aka Vladimir Rezun. Buckshot06 (talk) 00:10, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- additionally independent evidence also at http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/46325-commemorative-medal-50-years-of-the-special-control-service/ Buckshot06 (talk) 00:12, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The link you provide leads to a page where someone searches for the evidence of the organization "Special Control Service", because he has a picture of a medal of that organization (which might be photoshopped). So this is no evidence. It further undermines my believe that this organization is made up by Khalezov. If this is really a government organization there should be an official document or webpage on a russian gov. web site. It is apparently (when it does really exist) not that secret that this shouldn't be the case. All other webpages I encountered so far are copies and extracts from this wikipedia article. Your book sources could also be made up or based on this fake wikipedia article. Isley Constantine (talk) 13:15, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Buddy, please. First look up Harriet Fast Scott and X X SCott. Then look up their histories as chronilcers of the Soviet military for the US government for decades. Check around if you like for initial details Armed Forces of the Soviet Union, produced painstakingly by use of the Soviet open source press during the Cold War. Then I will take the liberty of requesting you to email me your e-mail address via the emailthisuser function so I can send you the document I'm talking about. This service was real in 2002 and 2004 and in all certainty probably still exists. Buckshot06 (talk) 14:14, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I find the book "The Armed Forces of the Soviet Union" you mention but the (more actual?) book book "Russian Military Directory" I cannot find. I tried google, amazon and "Westminster Press" (publisher of the older book). Do you have an ISBN for this book? (or any other data on where I could find it) Otherwise I still have to assume that this organization may have existed but was confined to the time where the Soviet Union exited. Isley Constantine (talk) 14:50, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The RMD appears to be a post-retirement version of an internal U.S. government document which I obtained from a former U.S. army Soviet specialist. It is not a 'book'; it's effectively a list of officers & postings for the Russian military, which Scott and Scott continued to do post retirement. When you allow me to send you a copy, you will see the Russian media sources used; things like Krasnaya Zvezda and the other military media publications which listed officers' names, ranks, and posts. Buckshot06 (talk) 17:04, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- So this list is your evidence? How actual is this list? Can the contents of the list be verified from a different souce? Regardless of the credibility of this document, please send a copy to me via email via the function you mentioned. I've set up a link on my user page for this. Isley Constantine (talk) 20:51, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The RMD appears to be a post-retirement version of an internal U.S. government document which I obtained from a former U.S. army Soviet specialist. It is not a 'book'; it's effectively a list of officers & postings for the Russian military, which Scott and Scott continued to do post retirement. When you allow me to send you a copy, you will see the Russian media sources used; things like Krasnaya Zvezda and the other military media publications which listed officers' names, ranks, and posts. Buckshot06 (talk) 17:04, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I find the book "The Armed Forces of the Soviet Union" you mention but the (more actual?) book book "Russian Military Directory" I cannot find. I tried google, amazon and "Westminster Press" (publisher of the older book). Do you have an ISBN for this book? (or any other data on where I could find it) Otherwise I still have to assume that this organization may have existed but was confined to the time where the Soviet Union exited. Isley Constantine (talk) 14:50, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Buddy, please. First look up Harriet Fast Scott and X X SCott. Then look up their histories as chronilcers of the Soviet military for the US government for decades. Check around if you like for initial details Armed Forces of the Soviet Union, produced painstakingly by use of the Soviet open source press during the Cold War. Then I will take the liberty of requesting you to email me your e-mail address via the emailthisuser function so I can send you the document I'm talking about. This service was real in 2002 and 2004 and in all certainty probably still exists. Buckshot06 (talk) 14:14, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The link you provide leads to a page where someone searches for the evidence of the organization "Special Control Service", because he has a picture of a medal of that organization (which might be photoshopped). So this is no evidence. It further undermines my believe that this organization is made up by Khalezov. If this is really a government organization there should be an official document or webpage on a russian gov. web site. It is apparently (when it does really exist) not that secret that this shouldn't be the case. All other webpages I encountered so far are copies and extracts from this wikipedia article. Your book sources could also be made up or based on this fake wikipedia article. Isley Constantine (talk) 13:15, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- see also http://www.arsenalrus.com/contents.php?id=8#6_3
- Comment. Existence is confirmed by the Google Scholar search linked above, which finds mentions in these articles in academic journals. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:08, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Where is "Special Control Service" mentioned. There is only a "Special monitoring service". So it doesn't seem to be the same. Isley Constantine (talk) 19:08, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You do realise that different translators might translate the same Russian word slightly different ways? For example, отдельная can be translated by different military translators as 'independent,' 'separate,' or 'detached,' the last of which may be closest to the literal meaning. Buckshot06 (talk) 19:47, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- So there is no _official_ russian government translation in english for this organization? Isn't that strange? So why is this article called "Special Control Service" when "Special Monitoring Service" might also be correct? Isley Constantine (talk) 20:46, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Isley, what you appear not to realise is that the Soviet/Russian government is near-obsessive about military secrecy. This is a highly sensitive military function, which makes the whole matter more murky. They are not like the US government and create extensive webpages for each service, branch, and unit. It was a near-revolutionary step when current reformist defence minister Serduyov declassified all documents relating to World War II - and this was done within the last five years! They also do not necessarily care what any organisation's translation into English would be. Why would they? The way some inside the military establishment see it, they are the heirs to an organisation which won the 'Great Patriotic War' and that is quite enough. There masy be no official position on what the name of this highly sensitive organisation is in English - though note Scott and Scott also refer to it as the 'Special Control Service' - and thus people less familiar with the way Soviet military terminology is translated into English by those who work professionally on these matters may use a non-standard translation. Buckshot06 (talk) 22:11, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, of course I see your point. And we shouldn't only rely on "official" documents, web pages or whatever. When this would be the case, many WP articles wouldn't be possible. But at least we should have some basic facts/evidence to back the claim that there is (or was) actually an organization called "Special Control Service". I'll have a look at the documents you are sending me. Maybe if this article stays this list should be added to the references? Isley Constantine (talk) 07:57, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Scott and Scott's transliteration of the Russian title is 'Sluzhby spetsialnogo kontrolya MO (SSK)'. MO is the Russian acronym for Ministry of Defence. Check on page 78 of the 2004 edition, when you receive it. Buckshot06 (talk) 12:20, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've had a look at the PDF you sent me, thanks. I really have difficulties to accept this document as some sort of evidence. The stuff written there might be true or might not be true. And who can proof that this document is really from Harriet/William F. Scott? It seems to be the only source. It's a bit like the Koran. "This book is from god", "Who says that?", "This book says that.". Maybe there are other sources? And why isn't this document not in a reference section on the article (yes I could do that, but I still prefer a deletion ;-) )? -- Isley Constantine (talk) 15:09, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Try checking the references listed! Each officer has a newspaper article and date attached to his name - it's all there - every one can be run down. Tell me, how many translated newspaper artcicles did you read in there? Did you try checking for some of the original Russian versions of some of those articles on the web? As Phil has already said, Google Scholar confirms it with other documentation. Why is it not in the references? Because it wasn't used! It's *independent* evidence ! I have to say, Islay, that your continued pursuit of this deldebate begins to appear frivolous. How many sources have to be provided to you?Buckshot06 (talk) 17:28, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- In addition, run a google search for Службы специального контроля. You'll get multiple independent results that together provide an adequate standard for the organisation's existence, plus there's Ru-wiki as well. Look at ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Служба Специального Контроля ; OK, it has no references, but do you think Russian wikipedians would have created an entire article about an organisation that didn't exist ? Buckshot06 (talk) 22:04, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Try checking the references listed! Each officer has a newspaper article and date attached to his name - it's all there - every one can be run down. Tell me, how many translated newspaper artcicles did you read in there? Did you try checking for some of the original Russian versions of some of those articles on the web? As Phil has already said, Google Scholar confirms it with other documentation. Why is it not in the references? Because it wasn't used! It's *independent* evidence ! I have to say, Islay, that your continued pursuit of this deldebate begins to appear frivolous. How many sources have to be provided to you?Buckshot06 (talk) 17:28, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've had a look at the PDF you sent me, thanks. I really have difficulties to accept this document as some sort of evidence. The stuff written there might be true or might not be true. And who can proof that this document is really from Harriet/William F. Scott? It seems to be the only source. It's a bit like the Koran. "This book is from god", "Who says that?", "This book says that.". Maybe there are other sources? And why isn't this document not in a reference section on the article (yes I could do that, but I still prefer a deletion ;-) )? -- Isley Constantine (talk) 15:09, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Scott and Scott's transliteration of the Russian title is 'Sluzhby spetsialnogo kontrolya MO (SSK)'. MO is the Russian acronym for Ministry of Defence. Check on page 78 of the 2004 edition, when you receive it. Buckshot06 (talk) 12:20, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, of course I see your point. And we shouldn't only rely on "official" documents, web pages or whatever. When this would be the case, many WP articles wouldn't be possible. But at least we should have some basic facts/evidence to back the claim that there is (or was) actually an organization called "Special Control Service". I'll have a look at the documents you are sending me. Maybe if this article stays this list should be added to the references? Isley Constantine (talk) 07:57, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Isley, what you appear not to realise is that the Soviet/Russian government is near-obsessive about military secrecy. This is a highly sensitive military function, which makes the whole matter more murky. They are not like the US government and create extensive webpages for each service, branch, and unit. It was a near-revolutionary step when current reformist defence minister Serduyov declassified all documents relating to World War II - and this was done within the last five years! They also do not necessarily care what any organisation's translation into English would be. Why would they? The way some inside the military establishment see it, they are the heirs to an organisation which won the 'Great Patriotic War' and that is quite enough. There masy be no official position on what the name of this highly sensitive organisation is in English - though note Scott and Scott also refer to it as the 'Special Control Service' - and thus people less familiar with the way Soviet military terminology is translated into English by those who work professionally on these matters may use a non-standard translation. Buckshot06 (talk) 22:11, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- So there is no _official_ russian government translation in english for this organization? Isn't that strange? So why is this article called "Special Control Service" when "Special Monitoring Service" might also be correct? Isley Constantine (talk) 20:46, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Just click on the word "scholar" in the nomination and you will see from the snippets shown that both of those articles refer to the Special Control Service. Why do so many people talk past each other in deletion discussions without even looking at the automatically-generated search links that provide evidence to inform the discussion? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:32, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- You do realise that different translators might translate the same Russian word slightly different ways? For example, отдельная can be translated by different military translators as 'independent,' 'separate,' or 'detached,' the last of which may be closest to the literal meaning. Buckshot06 (talk) 19:47, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 08:25, 15 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak Delete. I had a look around on Google. There are some mentions of this service as "Special Control Service". But am having a hard time finding a reference that I would feel confident about using as a formal reference. Will change recommendation if better references are listed in the article. Nipsonanomhmata (Talk) 19:45, 15 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak Delete. I still have trouble with the "evidence" yet. There is some PDF floating arround which mentions this organization but the origin of the PDF is hard to verify (at least for me). Also I don't find any other useful information. No direct google search results come up. And Google Scholar list some articles but on the preview there is no direct mention of the organization either. Most search results are only copies of this article from wikipedia. Furthermore there is still Khalezov and his book and his conspiracy theory and the fact that some with his username started this article. One would expect for an organization this old and this big there would be more information in available (also in english). Isley Constantine (talk) 12:05, 17 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete. Whie the Google Scholar hits appear to confirm that the organisation did indeed exist, I can't find anything to suggest that it meets WP:GNG or any other notability guideline. Alzarian16 (talk) 21:27, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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