Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Notable speakers with a New York accent

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus: default to keep. — Athaenara ✉ 00:40, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notable speakers with a New York accent

This list is highly subjective, randomly assembled, and somewhat strange: why wouldn't people from a specific location speak in the accent of that location? Besides, as any New Yorker will testify, there is no such thing as a Noo Yawk accent -- someone from the Bronx does not sound like someone from Brooklyn. Ecoleetage (talk) 12:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem whatsoever with the deletion of this article I created. The thing is, I took the whole lot from the New York dialect article. At first I just deleted the section there, but my edits were undone by Bellagio99.

I didn't want to start an edit war, so I just made it into a new article. You might want to check with Bellagio99 though. --Soetermans (talk) 13:50, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly oppose 1. This article has been a long standing section of the New York Dialect article (several years?), and no one has ever proposed deletion of the section before.

2. Hence, I was surprised when first the section was precipitously deleted and then when it was cut and moved to a new article -- without any discussion on the Talk page, as WP:CIVIL would suggest.

3. I continue to believe that it makes sense as part of New York Dialect, because it provides exemplars of notable people (in the public eye) who speak New York Dialect -- giving indications of pronunciation, rhythm and other subtleties. However, perhaps a cross-link to a separate article is ok.

4. There is a major factual mistake in Ecoleetage's account. The user thinks that Bronx speaks differently than Brooklyn. However, a good deal of scholarship by Prof William Labov and others that there is a single New York dialect, predominantly spoken by white New Yorkers. This is extensively discussed in the main New York Dialect article. I am surprised that User Ecoleetage did not read it, and I am surprised as a non-native speaker of English (from his User page), that he is so ready to make pronouncements about such matters. I would hesitate to do so about Spanish pronunciation. The fact that the User did make this mistake shows the need for the main article and the exemplifying list of notable speakers.

Bellagio99 (talk) 14:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response The only factual mistake here is the assumption that a non-native speaker cannot differentiate between accents. As for the single New York dialect, tell that to the people in Harlem, Bensonhurst, Upper East Side and City Island -- and listen to how each respective neighbourhood responds. Ecoleetage (talk) 18:45, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or Merge a reasonably short and well referenced list may make sense within the New York Dialect article but, in no way does it need to be this large. I'm afraid there is a substantial difference in accent throughout the various boroughs which does make the idea of one New York accent difficult to believe. I'm pretty sure what most of the world would call a New York accent would actually be "Brooklyn" (just like most people assume that everyone from Maine drops their Rs and everyone from London is a Cockney. Jasynnash2 (talk) 15:58, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Jasynnash2: Actually there is a detailed account in the New York Dialect article that it is not only a "Brooklyn" article, but covers the entire city and some surrounding areas, but not by all ethnic/racial groups. This is backed by systematic scholarly linguistic research, not just opinion. The list conforms to that criterion. I refer you to the main article for details. Cheers, Bellagio99 (talk) 16:38, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shorten to only those supported by references, and merge back into the New York Dialect article -- The list is too long to be useful now, and not all those listed are supported by references. Should be restored to the NYD article in a smaller form. No reason to have this in a separate article. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 16:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per ChrisRuvolo. I am the one who has been adding references to the list. I don't think we need a list of every famous person that has the accent. The ones that are referenced are the ones whom the article's writer felt was a great example of the accent or was a part of their notability or appeal. I will continue to search for references but I think the referenced ones make a good list already. Although, there is no such thing as a "Brooklyn accent" or "Bronx accent", there is such thing as a "North Jersey accent" as stated by the great William Labov and some of the listed people arguably speak with a Jersey accent. MrBlondNYC (talk) 17:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I support ChrisRuvolo's position exactly. One logical addition would be to admit in future only names referenced sources. Also, as the main article states no one has demonstrated any substantial differences within the dialect area beyond pronunciations of specific sites and perhaps local vocabulary. mnewmanqc (talk) 17:55, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One addendum to Mnewmanqc's thought: I would not be in super-hurry to delete non-referenced names. To pick several names at semi-random: In the public media, Fran Dressler, Carroll O'Connor (Archie Bunker) and Groucho Marx are widely-HEARD examples of NY accents. To delete them if they are not currently referenced would be foolish. I personally don't think the list is too long -- after all NYC is filled with public notables -- but if there is pruning, it should be with discretion. Bellagio99 (talk) 18:44, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

~~Fuhgettaboutit~~ Merge per others Delete. FDR had a New York accent? "We have nuttin' to fear... excepp for fear itseff. Ya know?" Indiscriminate, unsourced, subjective, and probably wrong. Mandsford (talk) 19:01, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but it is sourced and I could add more sources for FDR but I thought one was enough. Here's another one: [1] Maybe it's better than the one I added. FDR's accent was an upper-class New York accent that isn't really heard anymore and this accent - particularly Roosevelt's - is discussed in detail in the New York accent article. MrBlondNYC (talk) 19:14, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 21:36, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per ChrisRuvolo. Quelle horreur! There is the risk that indiscriminate articles would be created along similar lines, such as Speakers with a Texan accent, Speakers with a Liverpudlian accent, Speakers with a Scottish accent, or broader articles such as Speakers with a British accent, Speakers with a French accent, Speakers with an American accent, or.... Ohconfucius (talk) 04:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Looking back over the discussion, I see that the problem came up when a slash-and-burn editor deleted a section out of New York dialect. I hate people like that too. All I can say is, you have just as much right to put that section right back in, and there will be more authority to keep it in if the consensus is Merge. The current list is t.f.l. (too long), but it can be improved. This can be, and should be, more than an indiscriminate list (in other words, a list of linked articles with no context provided to for one to "discriminate" between various types of accents on the spectrum between the Bronx and Hyde Park. Moreover, I think that the focus of such a list should be on a select few persons whose voices are familiar (as on TV) and whose accents are unvaried (James Cagney, Jerry Seinfeld, etc.). Although Carroll O'Connor did All in the Family, he effected a different accent on In the Heat of the Night. Mandsford (talk) 13:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gee, thanks for all the kind words - all I did was move the section of the article. Why? Because Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. You tell me what the point is of having a list of "Notable speakers of a New York accent" is in a linguistic article.

That was my motivation of taking it out. What's done with isn't my problem. --Soetermans (talk) 16:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I did the same a while back to the hegemony article. There was a long list of "Hegemony in fiction", which I then moved to its own article - for the very same reason, political science has nothing to do with fictional universe and such. --Soetermans (talk) 16:39, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My bad. I thought the article was the result of an edit war. A long list of "persons with a New York accent" is silly, whether in a linguistics article or by itself. A short list might serve as an illustration in an article for the benefit of persons who don't know what a "New York accent" is supposed to sound like. I agree with you that there is nothing served by a merger. Mandsford (talk) 17:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. In response to Bellagio99's comment, just because something passes without comment in an article doesn't mean consensus necessarily supports it, nor that that section, removed from the original article and use separately, is viable. As noted above, this would create a rather bad precedent that could lead to similar lists. It is also unmaintainable and would need constant policing for WP:BLP issues and verification. While some of the names listed here have sources, many more do not. There are also people listed here whose inclusion could be debated - Telly Savalas, for example, is often said to have a Greek-American accent, not a New York accent. Groucho Marx's accent could be debated as being more Jewish in nature because of his ethnic background. And so on. Including a few examples in the dialect article are fine, but it simply does not work as a standalone. The list also muddies the waters by introducing fictional characters such as Archie Bunker into the mix. If WP:DONTGOTHERE existed I'd cite that. 23skidoo (talk) 16:54, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep If its limited to those with good sources then it is not indiscriminate. DGG (talk) 03:47, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Repeat of Merge. User:23skido's discussion shows why the list should be merged back in. The dialect article itself documents there is no such thing as a "Greek-American" (Savelas) or a "Jewish" accent (Groucho): they all speak New York Dialect. Thus the list and the dialect article are synergestic. I agree that all on the list should be notable, but notability isn't limited to TV stars. For example, some scholars often speak publicly in New York dialect. Bellagio99 (talk) 01:47, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think a lot of Greek Americans don't agree with you there. The same goes for American Jews. Most American Jews are from Ashkenazi descent (i.e., Central and Eastern Europe) so a common American Jewish dialect or accent is quite possible. See Jewish English languages or Yinglish.

Anyway, I believe the list is in need of good hack-and-slash editing. "People known for their New York accent" would be better, I guess. For example, right now Isaac Asimov (spelled wrong, BTW) is mentioned and while the New York dialect might be his dialect that in no way has anything to do with his work and why he is famous. The same goes for Jerry Seinfeld, Adam Horovitz, Donald Trump... and so on, and so on. --Soetermans (talk) 07:34, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mijnheer Soetermans: Sorry, but all Ashkenazai American Jews don't have the same accent. Compare NY Jews with midwest with west coast with southern (where a T-shirt says "Shalom Y'all"). But this is not just my opinion: it is discussed in the main article New York Dialect and documented in the research literature to which the article refers. I wouldn't say that Frisians sound like folks from Den Bosch. Please stop riding a factually inaccurate horse;-). tot ziens Bellagio99 (talk) 13:33, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gezien de rest van je Engels weet je toch wat "possible" betekent? --Soetermans (talk) 17:54, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For those who do not speak this silly old language: I didn't say that American Ashkenazi have the same dialect, I said it was possible. You, however, claimed that: "The dialect article itself documents there is no such thing as a "Greek-American" (Savelas) or a "Jewish" accent", which I question. Making the wrong conclusions out of my words is fine - but it won't help the discussion here. --Soetermans (talk) 18:01, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The potential is certainly there for an encyclopedic article, starting with notability drawn from sources like the fun AM New York article, combined with more serious studies that can take this from indiscriminate. An expert can discriminate between Jimmy Cagney and Jerry Seinfeld, or Ed Koch and Rudy Giuliani, and perhaps some of these 51 footnotes say something about that. I hasten to say that "indiscriminate" and "unsourced" are two different concepts, fixing one doesn't directly fix the other. To the average American, I suppose, Professor Higgins and Eliza Doolittle would both have a "British accent", but that would not be "fair" to say. Mandsford (talk) 01:15, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Close the Discussion: Merge or Let Stand: Folks, there is clearly no consensus for deletion, and I suggest that we move on to consideration about whether the article should be left to stand on itself, or merged back in as a final section of New York Dialect. I believe the merger is more useful, as the main New York Dialect article discusses the reasoning behind inclusion and exclusion of names, and the list of names provides accessible exemplification. Now that we have pruned this article of some names, the list will not be so long. Bellagio99 (talk) 13:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.