Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nemglan (Gaelic God)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎ . There is no clear consensus between keep and merge here, however a consensus to delete is not on the table and therefore a merger discussion can continue on the talk pages. Star Mississippi 13:22, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nemglan (Gaelic God)

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

FAILS GNG. Two sources in the article are not IS RS with SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and in-depth. BEFORE showed mentions, but nothing with SIGCOV. No objection to a redirect to Conaire Mor. // Timothy :: talk 01:39, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Mythology and Ireland. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 01:41, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or (as AtD and per nom) redirect to Conaire Mór. Of the sources in the stub, only one even mentions the subject by name. The other describes the subject as an 'indistinct figure in Celtic myth'. Hardly a ringing endorsement. As per the nom, my own WP:BEFORE throws up a few sources where the mythical (fictional) character is mentioned - but only in passing and always in association with Conaire Mór or Mess Búachalla. And often, at that, not even by name. A redirect to a related character or topic would be in keeping with related convention for fictional characters (as discussed in the WP:NFICT essay). Guliolopez (talk) 02:12, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Actually, a WP:BEFORE search shows a lot of hits. Many of them only give a short description. But e.g. The Encyclopedia of Celtic Mythology and Folklore, p. 354, and Encyclopedia of Fairies in World Folklore and Mythology, p. 246, each have a paragraph directly on the deity. So by no means a mention in passing. As Wikipedia aims to be a general and specialized encyclopedia, if these specialized encyclopedias have an entry on Nemglan, so should we. Granted, neither of those is very long, and the second is partially based on the first, but they still already allow is to write a short, reliably sourced article. But we can actually write more: Cambrian Medieval Celtic Studies, p. 75, has some commentary how Nemglan relates to kingship. "Shades of Arthur: The Irish Legend of Conaire" comments on the name Nemglan and the relationship of the figure to older Greek deities, as does Heroic Saga and Classical Epic in Medieval Ireland. "Shades of Arthur" also tells us "For a further discussion on the figure of Nemglan, see Tom Sjöblom, “Advice from a Birdman: Ritual Injunctions and Royal Instructions in TBDD” (1996)." So while I could not access that myself, an academic paper tells us that there is more in-depth discussion still. And these were just a small selection which I have actually looked at. Daranios (talk) 16:21, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Update: @TimothyBlue: I have now supported things with what I assume are reliable secondary sources, which I think solves your first objection. I hope listing all those sources above solves the second. What do you think? Daranios (talk) 10:59, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into Conaire Mór. Firstly, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that this figure was a god of the ancient Irish. Secondly, he only appears briefly in the tale of Conaire Mór's birth in Togail Bruidne Dá Derga. That article could and should be expanded a great deal, with sections about its themes and characters. Mess Búachalla could also be merged into Conaire Mór. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 13:17, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Asarlaí: At least some secondary sources like this paper or The Encyclopedia of Celtic Mythology and Folklore call Nemglan a god (perhaps in a wide interpretation of "otherwordly figure"?), so I think the article should contain that. I don't think this needs to be in the title, though. I think we should move this to Nemglan to reflect that the figure is not always recognized as a god, and because it's simpler, and because there is no more prominent topic of the same name. Daranios (talk)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:36, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Conaire Mór. Hansen Sebastian^Talk 17:19, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I was hoping to see some assessment of the sources brought up in this discussion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:09, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into Conaire Mór. Spleodrach (talk) 10:42, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep A WP:BEFORE search is more than enough to demonstrate notability. Pladica (talk) 4:30, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist as I see no conensus here.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:57, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: As nom, I think Merge with Conaire Mór a good AtD. // Timothy :: talk 12:31, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

To note admin, TimothyBlue is nominator. She (never 'he') wants to vote twice even titled as 'comment'. 49.237.39.216 (talk) 00:40, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep Clearly notable god and rename to Nemglan. A quick WP:BEFORE search brings up dozens of sources [1], way more than enough to demonstrate notability. His single entry can be found at The Celtic Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia of Fairies in World Folklore and Mythology and many more. Why people are using AfD as a weapon? 49.237.39.216 (talk) 00:33, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep. Meets WP:GNG. Sources that support that view follow:

O'Connor, R. (2013). The Destruction of Da Derga's Hostel: Kingship and Narrative Artistry in a Mediaeval Irish Saga. United Kingdom: OUP Oxford. (28 mentions over 9 pages, no question this is significant coverage)
Mountain, H. (1998). The Celtic Encyclopedia. United States: Universal Publishers. (half a page, debatable, but I'd call it significant coverage)
Bane, T. (2013). Encyclopedia of Fairies in World Folklore and Mythology. United States: McFarland, Incorporated, Publishers. (only a paragraph, but I think enough to bolster notability)

Plus a lot of mentions in Google Books. Weak because only one of the sources above is unquestionably SIGCOV. CT55555(talk) 01:29, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.