Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Neil March

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Overall consensus is for deletion. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 21:05, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Neil March

Neil March (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Appears to not be notable.

The only references in the article either only mention March incidentally, or are obviously not independent. A good faith search for sources only provided this, which does not appear to be a reliable source and I could well believe is written by March himself.

I see no sign of meeting any of the notability guidelines WP:GNG, WP:BASIC, WP:NACADEMICS, WP:COMPOSER, WP:ARTIST or WP:ANYBIO. —me_and 17:53, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:34, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:34, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• This Wikipedia account should not be deleted. Neil March is a respected British composer and, through his record label Demerara Records, he is making a significant contribution to the promotion of new music and upcoming composers. Sounds Positive recently commissioned Neil to compose a solo Bass Flute for our flautist Simon Desorgher (as I believe is mentioned on the Wiki page) and he is about to release a double album which will provide 28 composers from a variety of nationalities and ethnicities a platform for their music. Most of Neil's activities tend to be conducted on social media sites which may explain why you have struggled to find adequate references. That said, a simple Google Search for Neil March Urban Art Music or Neil March Demerara Records brings up numerous sites demonstrating his activities. It would be perverse if, just as he is becoming known to an international audience and is playing such a positive role in providing others with the opportunity to be heard, Wikipedia were to delete his account. I hope others involved in the contemporary music scene will join me in condemning such action although, like me, they may struggle to work out how on earth one gets to find a place to make any comment on your proposed deletion as this is very unclear. — Soundspositive (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 13:38, 4 May 2015 (UTC).[reply]

  @Soundspositive: If March is just becoming well known, then he should have plenty of independent sources soon, at which point it's entirely fine for him to have an article. However, he's not well known yet, and Wikipedia is not a crystal ball – we don't assume he's going to become notable until he actually is.

  Social media sites incredibly rarely count as reliable sources for establishing notability; we'd be looking for things like newspapers or music magazines writing biographies of March, or him receiving some major awards for his music.

  —me_and 18:18, 5 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• One of the criteria for meeting the Wiki standard as an academic is achieving the status of Doctor of Philosophy. Neil March is a Doctor of Philosophy. — Hornetmuziq (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 13:55, 4 May 2015 (UTC).[reply]

  @Hornetmuziq: Having a Ph.D. has never been a criteria for notability. I'm not sure where you've picked that up from; the notability criteria for academics at WP:NACADEMICS is considerably more strict. —me_and 18:14, 5 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Further to the above point, there has been a substantial update to Neil March's page which now includes links (in the references section) to websites demonstrating BBC Radio 3 and Resonance FM playlisting tracks from his album and Goldsmiths University having published his PhD Thesis which contradict the claim that any substantial references to him were written by Neil himself. The main text in the article has also been updated showing Sound and Music's support for Neil's activities, Tunecore's involvement in distributing his album and reference to BBC Radio 3 and Resonance FM who have recently been playing his music. It would be helpful to know, if these changes are still not considered sufficient proof of status, what exactly you need because a lot of the criticism is couched on technical language that means nothing to the rest of us. Thanks. Ffion Jones, Hornetmuziq Press. — Hornetmuziq (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 16:14, 4 May 2015 (UTC).[reply]

  @Hornetmuziq: To be notable by Wikipedia's definition, March would need to meet one of the notability criteria such as the general notability guideline or any of the other guidelines – I've linked to all the obviously relevant ones in the post above. In short, we need enough in independent sources to be able to write the article about March without having to do any original research; currently we don't have that. None of the sources on the article at the moment give significant coverage of March himself. —me_and 18:14, 5 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• 6 May 2015 - Eifion Morgan (Welshman81): — Preceding unsigned comment added by Welshman81 (talk • contribs) 06:44, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for bringing this matter to my attention. I believe I am a reasonable authority on contemporary British classical music and have been responsible for much of the work on Neil March's Wikipedia page. I believe there are a number of links to external sources which I would be happy to add to the page and which may be of significance in determining your decision. They are as follows:

• https://www.facebook.com/groups/DCM.Contemporary.musicforum/ - this is a link to the Drowningcircle Music Facebook Forum with over 700 members hosted by composer Julian Broadhurst. The entry for 27 March 2015 is Broadhurst's introduction of Neil March to his followers with text and links to audio files.
• http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006tp52/podcasts - this is the BBC Radio Three podcast which makes Neil March's 'Metal Cutter' available to the show's fans to download.
• https://twitter.com/BBCR3MusicBot/status/591378200187514880 - this is a BBC Radio Three entry on Twitter referring to the above track.
• https://twitter.com/BBCRadio3/status/591378269448052736 - this is from BBC Radio Three's Twitter account, entry for 23 April 2015: "Building site noise driving you crazy? Do what @Neilmarch of @DemeraraRecords has done, record it and turn it into music #nowplaying"
• http://research.gold.ac.uk/11458/1/MUS_thesis_MarchN_2015.pdf - I realize this link is already listed on the Wikipedia page but I include it to highlight the point that, although it links to a thesis authored by Neil March in attainment of his Doctorate of Philosophy, it has been independently published and placed in the public domain by Goldsmiths, University of London.
• http://www.martingaughan.co.uk/ - this is the website of composer Martin Gaughan. The entry for 25 May 2014 talks about a Neil March composition being performed by pianist Dilara Aydinn-Corbett and describes how the piece, which also involves live electronics, is to be realized.
• https://twitter.com/marcyeats - this is the Twitter account of composer Marc Yeats. His tweet on 4 May 2015 reads: "I made the #NewMusicHero hashtag this morning it may already exist but pleased it's being used for #composers @juil_Broadhurst & @Neilmarch", a reference to Neil March's work in supporting and promoting new music.
• https://www.facebook.com/pages/Black-Marine/116678811752277?fref=ts - this is the Facebook Artist's page for Serbian pianist and composer Marina Vesic. Entries for 31 March 2015 and 1 April 2015 refer to her excitement at having agreed to contribute to an album being curated by Neil March for his Demerara Records label.
• http://www.talkclassical.com/24581-perspectives-neil-march.html - this is a link to the Talk Classical site which refers to a performance of Neil March's 'Perspectives' by the pianist Helena Gascoyne. This may not count as the entry appears to have been placed by Hornetmuziq Press, March's publisher.

In conclusion, I would suggest that the page should not be deleted. On balance, there is sufficient evidence of March being a notable composer and we must accept that, in the modern era, social media platforms are increasingly taking over as the main vehicles through which others involved in contemporary music express their ideas and opinions. There is also an important point which must have a bearing on your decision. Namely that, even if the page were to be deleted, it is inevitable that another Neil March Wikipedia page will need to be created in the near future given the speed at which he and his label Demerara Records are becoming known on the international stage where they already enjoy thousands of followers on Twitter and Facebook and where Demerara Records is becoming a focal point for an increasingly international list of non-mainstream composers.

• 6 May 2015 Eifion Morgan (Welshman81): Two additional points. My above entry is described as "unsigned". How so? Also, I note you have questioned whether Sounds Positive works for or is associated with Neil March. Sounds Positive is a musical ensemble formed by composer David Sutton-Anderson in the late nineteen-seventies which has been performing live for nearly forty years and has no direct association with March beyond having recently commissioned him to compose a work for Sounds Positive's Flautist Simon Desorgher and the fact which is referred in the main section on the Wikipedia page that March studied with Sutton-Anderson at Birkbeck, University of London. So the speculation here is incorrect. SIGNED: EIFION MORGAN (aka Welshman81)! — Welshman81 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  @Welshman81: Regarding the "unsigned" thing, when making comments on Wikipedia talk pages (such as this page) you should sign your posts with ~~~~, which will become a link to your username and talk page when you save your changes, as well as the time of your comment.

  None of the links you've provided establish notability according to Wikipedia's general notability guideline, either through lack of independence, lack of reliability or lack of significant coverage about March. While a lot of coverage is moving to social media now, it's still very rarely a useful source for establishing notability according to Wikipedia's guidelines, simply because it's very rare for it to provide that independent, reliable, significant coverage.

  If March does in future meet one of the notability guidelines, it's absolutely fine for an article to be recreated. We can even undelete the article so editors don't need to start from scratch again. If the article is repeatedly recreated without him meeting the guidelines, though, it's likely to be "salted", which will block the article from being created without an administrator removing the block.

  —me_and 09:26, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for clarifying matters. I accept your point about the possible absence of 'significant' data on the social media sites I have postulated but not about reliability or independence. I was quite careful only to choose examples in which independence was clearly established, the entries having been made by Julian Broadhurst of Drowningcirlce music (DCM), Marc Yeats who is composer-in-residence for the Observatory and a former protégé of Peter Maxwell-Davies, BBC Radio 3, Goldsmiths, University of London, the official website of composer Martin Gaughan and an entry on an artist's page by composer and pianist Marina Vesic. All these sources are reliable and independent. However I do agree that one of the problems with relying on social media is the absence of extensive articles in a world where soundbite is the primary means of communication, ironically one of the features of urban post-globalization society commonly referred to in Neil March's music.~~~~, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Welshman81 (talk • contribs) 10:46, 10 May 2015 (UTC) — Welshman81 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

• Delete. The number of sources is good, but the mentions are passing or log entries. We need significant coverage of the subject. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:04, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - cannot find any sources that indicate notability —Мандичка^YO 😜 23:20, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Searches with News, Books, browser, highbeam and thefreelibrary found nothing relevant aside from some listed above. SwisterTwister talk 23:48, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - No in-depth third-party coverage. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 15:15, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Wikipedia has low standards but no attempt is made here to address them. I feel that this article does not meet WP:GNG because I am unable to identify 2-3 sentences which are backed with citations which meet WP:RS. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:30, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.