Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of philosophies

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. -- Cirt (talk) 01:51, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

List of philosophies

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The content and purpose of this list is duplicated by the List of philosophical theories (which is consistent with its category). Greg Bard (talk) 00:58, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That seems a little disingenuous. You create list of philosophical theories as an unattributed copy of this article (plus some others) in March 2009, redirecting this article to your copy. Almost no-one apart from you edits it, and it's nominated for deletion in April 2009. The closure of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of philosophical theories is to redirect your copy to the original article and retain that, with its full edit history, as the place to edit. You unilaterally undo that action in July 2010, and then proceed, here, to nominate for deletion the original article that you had copied without proper attribution, whose edit history is required. Uncle G (talk) 02:21, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Disingenuous? No, the matter is not as simple as you portray it. I have been trying to organize the philosophy department for a long time now. I have been trying to get a single main list for each of philosophers, philosophical literature, philosophical concepts, and philosophical theories. This is my goal consistent with the category structure of the philosophy category tree. Other people have had other ideas, however they are not consistent with any larger effort, just ones' own taste. Perhaps you intend to mean something else was "disingenuous" but, in good faith, this proposal is not.

Furthermore, your presumption that the newly expanded list is "copied without proper attribution" is not so simple either. The list was compiled as described in the lead paragraph. It is a collection of articles in those particular categories. Many of the members of that list are also members of this list, however, that is incidental. There was no rhyme or reason to this list, there is for the other one.

I have to admit that preservation of the edit history of this list is a zero priority compared to organizing the list consistent with the categories. However, if it pleases those who insist, I would certainly support attatching the edit history of this list to the other one (even though that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever since the list arises out of the categories.) Greg Bard (talk) 02:35, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Preservation of the edit history should be a high priority. Editors who make contributions here, whether the majority know it or not, do so with a promise that their copyrighted contributions will be dealt with as the promise says. That promise is the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL, listed right below what I'm typing now. For better or worse, that priority is pretty serious.

Is this just a merge / fork issue? We have procedures to do edit history merges (pain in the ass I hear) and similar fixes for this sort of thing. Or is it a duplicate article? In either case, maybe you could provide a little more disclosure about the history of these articles and we can find a compromise so there's 1 article that covers the topic. Shadowjams (talk) 05:35, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The history is a big mish mash. There was even a third List of belief systems that was similar, but it was deleted with little fanfare. I took all the various lists, and combined them (in my userspace). Then, I ran the Mathbot's list updater. I updated the list, and then I got rid of the redirects. Then, I went through the articles not in a "theories" category, and put them in one. Then I ran the Mathbot list updater again.

I don't think every instance when an individual adds an article to a category... which later causes the article to be added to a list via bot ... needs to be preserved by the license agreement. Similarly, I don't think contributions of one item at a time to a list is a high priority for maximizing our adhereance to the license agreement. This is a case where if it was parliamentary procedure I would propose to suspend the rule so as to facilitate the conduct of business. If some preseravtion makes people feel more comfortable then we should endeavor to merge the histories. Greg Bard (talk) 07:09, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sympathetic towards your point, but American copyright law is not exactly logical. How about this. For purposes of this AfD let's focus on the particular topic, and whether or not it duplicates another topic, and as for the history merging (which I think is important) let's include as many pages as possible, to the chagrin of the poor editor that has to do that. Shadowjams (talk) 07:19, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. Yes this is a duplication. I would propose that the histories be merged so as to include the whole of the history of list of philosophies onto the history of list of philosophical theories. The list of philosophical theories had been a redirect with no content to care who contributed it up until a short time ago. Please do keep the title so as to be consistent with the philosophy categories. Greg Bard (talk) 07:48, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Administrative Keep - The charges raised above are serious and there should be no deletion until the background of this topic and deletion proposal are clarified. Carrite (talk) 13:01, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:47, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep—Based on the above, this discussion belonged on WP:REQMOVE.—RJH (talk) 16:57, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Deletion would obviously be improper, as discussed above. The nominator fails to explain why redirection would not be a satisfactory alternative per our deletion and editing policies. And I prefer the current title which avoids the chore of arguing whether entries like Darwinism or Western philosophy are theories or something more. Colonel Warden (talk) 06:58, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Let's take it easy. I think this is maybe a misunderstanding of the move criteria or procedure that could probably be closed now. Or are you arguing for separately named articles addressing the same thing? Shadowjams (talk) 08:21, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that we should take it easy. This means not using the delete button and, instead, using ordinary editing methods per the emphatic guidance at WP:BEFORE. I'm not seeing any sources or consensus in this stuff and so there is little objective basis for a severe action which would not be readily corrected as and when we have sources and/or editorial consensus. Colonel Warden (talk) 17:37, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and redirect to other page, which is based on categories. No need for history merge, simply delete. Verbal chat 13:23, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Administrative Keep - I'm not going to support deleting this until the issues above are resolved. Claritas § 13:41, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This is an important topic list, and should be kept distinct from the other article(s). ~A H1^(TCU) 19:55, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Um, excuse me, but what, in your mind, distinguishes this list from the list of philosophical theories? (Because I am certain that there is no distinction). Greg Bard (talk) 21:17, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The list of philosophies contains different schools of thought and ideas about the lifestyle and existential philosophies of individuals and societies. The list of philosophical theories, however, are theories about viewpoints over the way that things are. They are very similar, but there is a definite and defiant distinction. ~A H1^(TCU) 01:50, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is one interpretation. However, I don't think that is a very conveinient way to look at things. In the language of formal logic a theory is just anything that can be expressed as {t1,t2,t3,...,tn} where the 't's are just believed statements. Under that logical interpretation there is no distinction between these lists and one needs to go. I am, however open minded to broadening the scope of List_of_schools_of_philosophy and renaming it to List of philosophical movements. A "theory" is an idea, and there is little argument about whether or not something is an idea or not. However, whether or not we have a "movement" is a matter of debate, depends on there being an organization, etcetera.Greg Bard (talk) 02:10, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I have closed the impossible WP:RM request to merge this article's history into the revived List of philosophical theories.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:32, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I am not sure what is going on here. The template has moved to a different page. Is the proposal now to delete "list of philosophies" and move "list of philosophical theories" to that namespace? I would support that.Greg Bard (talk) 02:42, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NativeForeigner ^Talk/_Contribs 17:32, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as List of philosophical theories is based on categories and thus can be automatically updated. If and when the list starts using its corresponding category for automatic updates, I will change my mind to keep. T3h 1337 b0y 17:57, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Seems to be a mish-mash list of philosophies, religions, foreign policies and one or two subjects which are ripe candidates for deletion themselves. How one groups Chaos theory, Christian existentialism, Interventionism and 'Chinese philosophy' (which, IMHO, is about as valid a school of philosophical thought as "American philosophy," or "Pennsylvania philosophy.") together is beyond me. Delete as there is no obviously consistent or logical reason for the grouping.Mtiffany71 (talk) 18:02, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

POINT OF ORDER Does everyone see this last post? The page was moved and the lead paragraph changed. Now people don't see any sense in it. This is a breach of policy to be moving pages around while there is an open discussion going on. Greg Bard (talk) 20:26, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What are you referring to? The last edit to this article, as of right now, is by you. If you are referring to List of philosophical theories, that has not been moved anywhere. Per this AfD, which you participated in, so I assume you know the result, it was redirected to List of philosophies (though it should have been deleted and redirected, given the copyright violation in the history). I also assume you know that you should not unilaterally overturn deletion discussions, in this case reviving a copyright violation you made by a cut and paste move of two articles into one. For that reason, as a I noted above, upon closing your recent WP:RM request to merge the page histories (here), I reverted your revival and protected the redirect.
Let's be clear. You can properly merge two articles together, which requires giving attribution on the merge. The instructions are at Help:Merging#Performing the merger. So, back on March 9, 2009, you could have properly merged together List of philosophies and List of belief systems with proper attribution, and you could have then moved (i.e., using the software's move function) that merged content to the title List of philosophical theories, if that name change was appropriate. You could have then edited that content, and if not reverted, we might have today the content that you seek. Right now you can edit this list article to make it function in a way you think is better and if not reverted, that will stick. In fact, even though there is a redirect at List of philosophical theories, if this article, List of Philosophies is better at that title, it can be moved there, and if the copyright violation history of the redirect is to be preserved, a history swap can be done. But List of philosophical theories cannot be revived, and no merge of this article's history into it, or vice-versa, makes any sense at all (and would, even if warranted, create a complete history muddle as they have overlapping edits).--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:10, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete And start all over from scratch. In its current form, the article is approaching the status of "a list of all ideas", which is completely worthless as an encyclopedia article. One can only have a meaningful list if there is a sensible demarkation criterion for what should be on the list and what should not, yet under this name, such a criterion could never be found. DubZog (talk) 23:48, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.