Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of deaths related to Scientology

This discussion was subject to a deletion review on 2010 December 27.
For an explanation of the process, see Wikipedia:Deletion review.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. L Faraone 04:24, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

EDIT as of 15:46, 29 December 2010 (UTC):

Since some people have asked for a more detailed explanation of the closing, I present a summary of arguments other editors made for delete.

The title of the article is weaselly; it implies that the deaths were caused by scientology.
Despite having WP:RS which mention both the deaths and that the parties involved were "related to" Scientology, the article is a WP:COATRACK.
Of the 4 (four!) examples listed, most of them are related to people with mental health issues following the policy of the CoS which advises against psychiatry. An article on List of deaths related to Catholicism talking about people who refused stem cell treatments would be similarly inappropriate, the discussion of those deaths more properly belongs at Stem cells.

Of the keep arguments, the only assertion was that the article had WP:RS (which it did, but see above), and that it was not a WP:COATRACK.

Although the sheer number of votes was evenly split, the arguments made for delete were stronger than that for keep. Please remember that AfDs are not judged by the number of arguments, but by their veracity. L Faraone 15:46, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

List of deaths related to Scientology

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

While some of these deaths are note worthy such as Lisa McPherson, most of these deaths are peripherally related to Scientology. A user on the talk claims that this was created after a CFD discussion on Deaths connected to Scientology where there was consensus for such a list. The Admin who closed the CFD closer indicated no such consensus. The scope is too broad and number of these "Notable death" simply redirect here. There is no reason We cannot put Jeffrey K. Hadden here as he was researcher of Scientology who died. I cant even imagine the out rage if we had death related to Judaism or Islam Which i am sure we could construct with RS. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 19:56, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- Edit, (cant believe I for got to say this) Also, the "related to scientology" implies guilt and wrong doing on CoS's part thus Violating NPOV. While Lisa Mcpherson is the only person on this list where CoS had any direct involvement The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 16:07, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 20:08, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 20:09, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Subject of note which has received significant coverage from multiple WP:RS secondary sources. -- Cirt (talk) 22:50, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think there was a consensus to listify at that CfD, whether or not the closer actually said so. I also think this list contains a substantial number of reliable sources, and that Wikipedia should tell the complete truth about Scientology. Also, whoever's unfortunate enough to close this case needs to be well aware of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology, wherein it's shown that the Church of Scientology demonstrably maintains a substantial number of accounts on Wikipedia and uses them for COI editing.—S Marshall T/C 23:28, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Are you accusing me of being COS editor? The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 23:31, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Not at all! I'm saying that COI editors tend to turn up in Scientology-related discussions.—S Marshall T/C 23:34, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Ok, I was unclear what you meant. Cirt who has commented above is obnoxiously good at finding Scientology Socks. I doubt Shutterbug will be a problem. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 23:40, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - Knowing Cirt, I should think he'll be admirably vigilant about socking at this AfD. :) But I did feel that Arbcom case was highly relevant to this AfD, and I thought it best if someone who wasn't Cirt mentioned it. (Arbcom found no wrongdoing on Cirt's part, but he was a party to the case.)—S Marshall T/C 23:50, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        Comment I think the comment "whoever's unfortunate enough to close this case" demonstrates a genuine misconception of the Scientology side of Wikipedia. Up until recently it has been relatively uneventful over here, and AFD's for scientology articles get closed all the time with little to no drama. Even before the Arbcom ruling all the editors involved in the scientology section respected AFD's and while some choice articles have been brought forth several times closing admins have never experienced foul consequences for preforming their duties as admins on the AFD that I know of.Coffeepusher (talk) 16:55, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Nominator fails to provide rational for why this article as it stands should be deleted, rather argues that some future version of this article may not uphold standards. Anyone is welcome to read the original CFD discussion on Deaths connected to Scientology where the closer did state "A few editors suggested to listify these subjects as a better alternative". All but 2 the entries in this article are Wikilinked to other articles (and if the nominator has a problem with those entires being there, this is not the format to clean up an article rather that should have been done on the talk page), have at least 2 reliable sources (and a few have 5+ in their list notes) not only backing up the entry but tying the death to Scientology.Coffeepusher (talk) 01:56, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment "Deaths related to Scientology" also fulfills the notability criteria for an event in itself. As the intro/lead/lede and background sections demonstrate, this topic has lasting effects, that have global significance(with three continents represented in the article), with 12 reliable sources in the lede and background which demonstrate depth and diverse sources, and re visitation of the theme over time (1980-2008) that indicates duration.Coffeepusher (talk) 17:44, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - WP:COATRACK is still a WP:COATRACK Even with WP:RS. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 23:42, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Its not a coat rack. It's about "deaths related to Scientology". Every entry is about a "death related to Scientology" and each entry is backed up by reliable sources that tie the death to the church of Scientology. The lede talks about how this article is about "deaths related to Scientology" and then the background section demonstrates how "deaths related to Scientology" is a significant reoccurring concept, and then those first two sections are backed up by 12 separate reliable sources that talk about "deaths related to Scientology." It's not a coat rack.Coffeepusher (talk) 00:00, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish criminals. --JN 466 14:52, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - while I can see the analogy put forth by Jayen466, I have to agree with the better arguments by Coffeepusher. The article/list is clearly notable. It's not obviously a POV fork, and I don't see what else could be wrong with it. Our core readership, high school and college students, would find this information useful and reliable. Bearian (talk) 20:56, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Compare Jewish criminals – there are entire websites dedicated to this – as well as Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL; there are many, many reliable sources on this too, far more than on this present case. There are also media sources discussing suicides related to sex abuse in the Roman Catholic church. This present article contains a strange mixture of cases, from work accidents to medical neglect to people who were mentally disturbed either before or by their contact with the Church of Scientology. I can see the legitimacy, technically, of having lists like that, based on notability, but they are very POV, based on a particular premiss, and on balance I would rather we did not have them. YMMV – I have no problem with anyone who disagrees with me in good faith on this. --JN 466 22:49, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - I agree to your point about Jewish criminals, but there are no reliable sources suggesting that Judaism caused them to be criminals (although you can find many non-reliable sources making that claim, which is why we have inclusion rules). Every source here is reliable and suggests that their death is directly tied to scientology. Now neutrality here does not mean that we have a pro for every con rather that all sides are represented based on the available reliable sources, which if you read the lede and the background sections I believe that due weight is given based on the available reliable sources.Coffeepusher (talk) 00:09, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Is Moxon's daughter's death for example directly tied to Scientology? According to the article on it, it was ruled an accident (by the way, operatingthetan.com is not a reliable source for that coroner's report, and even if it were, it would fall foul of WP:BLPPRIMARY. It's a mess.) --JN 466 00:53, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - K. bring it up on the talk pageCoffeepusher (talk) 00:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - and yes, Just because there was a ruling stating no malicious actions took place doesn't mean that the death wasn't tied to negligence by the church (which it was). this isn't a "people killed by malicious actions from the church of scientology" page its a deaths related to scientology page.Coffeepusher (talk) 01:00, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        Again, the article says (and I don't know if it's correct) that there were some safety violations in the facility, but they were not responsible for that death. I mean, this was a work accident. Would we have a list of deaths at Ford Motor Company? I am also not clear about Havenith. From what I read he drowned in a bathtub in a church-owned hotel. Unless I am missing something here -- this seems like describing someone drowning in his bathtub in the Vatican as a death related to the Roman Catholic Church, with the implication that the Roman Catholic faith is responsible for the man's death. What is the link to the religion here? --JN 466 01:09, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        K. Bring it up on the talk page, AFD's are not for article cleanup.Coffeepusher (talk) 01:10, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        Its fundementally flawed article, there is no way to clean it up to NPOV. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 01:12, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        nah, its a good article that represents with due weight the various viewpoints coming from reliable sources. Notice Jayen's example of a death that was tied to the church of scientology, broke out into an investigation, but which the church was relieved of all wrongdoing but rather fined for some safety violations. Now a POV article would leave this out because in the end the church is exonerated of wrongdoing, but this article leaves it in because there are reliable sources which initially tied the death to the church, but the conclusion is represented.Coffeepusher (talk) 01:17, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        It give the impression that CoS is responsible for these deaths. By Lumping seizure, accidents, and murders where scientology had varied levels of involvement makes it Polemical as an article is not good NPOV The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 01:28, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        I tend to agree with ResidentAnthropologist here. (And note I am not a Scientologist either.) --JN 466 01:37, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent)the reliable sources give the impression that Scientology is responsible for those deaths in some cases, in others the reliable sources state that other people are accusing the church of scientology for those deaths, and in still others the reliable sources state that the deaths were originally attributed to the church by some people but later the church was exonerated. this is all in line with wikipedia's neutral point of view policy which states that due weight must be given in relation to the reliable sources and that those sources must be accurately represented in content. These policies are followed quite well in this article with both examples like Lisa McPherson of which very few sources claim that the church was not responsible either through negligence or abuse, and other examples like the one stated above where the content and weight of the reliable sources are accuratly represented.Coffeepusher (talk) 01:45, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Delete "related to" is weasel wording of the worst order. As said above "lumping seizure, accidents, and murders where scientology had varied levels of involvement makes it Polemical as an article". We know Wikipedians hate Scientology, but that does not excuse attack articles which violated [{WP:NPOV|neutrality]].--Scott Mac 15:16, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree with Scott Mac. "Related to" is so vague... there's a drowning that was (suspiciously?) ruled accidental, there's people who committed suicide, there's people who went off their meds and either died or committed murder, and there's an accidental electrocution which seems to have been caused by negligence and incompetence. And then there's Lisa McPherson. There are enough things for which to criticize Scientology without resorting to intellectually weak clusterings like this. It would be like having a list of "Deaths connected to Nazism" which included Primo Levi and Glenn Miller. DS (talk) 15:39, 23 December 2010 (UTC) (oh, and in case it's not clear {no pun intended}, that's a delete)[reply]
- Comment I completely disagree that "related to" in this AFD "present the appearance of support for statements but can deny the reader the opportunity to assess the source of the viewpoint" the article actually is "clearly attributed" through reliable sources and provides the reader the opportunity to see where those claims come from. As I said, the lede and background sections of this article demonstrate that "deaths related to scientology" is not a weasel concept (use of obscure language to hide the fact that the source is not given), but rather is attributed to many different reliable sources over a period of 30 years. There are many articles that paint a disturbing picture of a group or organization from which there are two different sides, but those articles are written like this one with due consideration given to weight and neutrality (note that neutrality does not mean that if two sides are present you pick the one that is not critical, rather that you write your article giving equal weight to the reliable sources as they are presented). No one has been able to say that this article skews the reliable sources, only sees one set of reliable sources disregarding other sources on this topic, or provides an undue weight on one set of sources. therefore the article does provide a WP:NPOV. Oh and there is a Deaths related to Nazism article, but I am not sure what the inclusion rules are over there.Coffeepusher (talk) 15:48, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Jeffrey K. Hadden a researcher who provided expert testimony on behalf of Scientology in court died suddenly in 2004. How is this not a "death related to Scientology?" The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 16:14, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - The problem with "related to" is that it allows for anything - so the inclusion criteria are simply the biases of editors. There is no neutral source from which the criteria can be derived, which makes this a synthesis of published material that advances a position - the position being that Scientology has a causal relationship to death. This is no more neutral that an article List of deaths related to George Bush (which trust me I could write and source each one...although it would be very long). That you've piped "Deaths related to Nazism" to The Holocaust is revealing? Are you trying to write Holocaust (Scientology)?--Scott Mac 16:25, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - I think the Redirects created with the creation of this article on (may 27) reveal alot more about what this article is really about this such as Killed by scientology, Scientology kills, and a host of other redirects clarify the intentions of this article's existence The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 16:39, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete List of deaths related to Christianity, List of deaths related to Judaism, List of deaths related to Islam. Hmmm... this is an attack coatrack created by opponents of scientologists, and inclusion criteria is indiscriminate (it's clearly trying to say these deaths were "caused" by Scientology, but that would be highly debatable in the vast majority of instances). The way in X (scientology) is related to y (death) could be used to create all kinds of coatracks.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:35, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to spam, I am putting together a workgroup to review all Scientology related content. Anyone interested here may like to participate: Wikipedia:Neutrality in Scientology.--Scott Mac 21:43, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As it is, this article is highly coatracky. It's a list of any death with any connection with Scientology, however loose the connection. If this were a clearly unified article, such as about deaths attributed to medical malpractice as advocated by Scientology, I might be able to support it, but as it is, this is just "Scientology is bad! Let's show how many people have died in some way related to it, including some guy who had left Scientology several years earlier!". Delete. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 00:36, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ehhh, I'm a bit dubious about a clustering like "deaths attributed to medical malpractice as advocated by Scientology" too, because it doesn't distinguish between the deaths caused directly by medical malpractice (e.g., Lisa MacPherson) with those for which the medical malpractice is at best a proximate cause (e.g., Elli Perkins). DS (talk) 00:18, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, but cleanup. I was expecting to say 'Delete' here, but on looking at the article I'm convinced that this is a notable subject - there have been a number of high-profile deaths which have been publicly linked with the Church of Scientology, and are frequently raised by its critics. However, I think this article goes beyond what can be justified by the sources, and includes any death which can be linked with Scientology, even if that link is highly tangential (Frank Vitkovic), and others which aren't notable enough to be covered elsewhere (Stacy Meyer, Josephus A. Havenith, Heribert Pfaff). I would recommend keeping this article, but cutting it down to only the cases which are notable in their own right and where the link with Scientology was significant. Robofish (talk) 03:11, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep And make dang sure the content does not violate any WP rules -- there is clearly a danger of this article being grossly misused, but that is a content matter and not one of AfD strength. Collect (talk) 11:26, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The list has been culled in recent days to leave 5 incidents over a 20 year period which are still somewhat tenuous. Four of the five remaining items appear to be issues involving mental health problems, which leaves only leaves one maybe. One item does not a list make. John lilburne (talk) 23:55, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep : Absolutely agree with Collect above: the article needs attention, but its existence is compliant with every WP policy and guideline. Subject is obviously notable and article is sourceable. I strongly disagree that "deaths related to X" is necessarily a "coatrack": if deaths related to X exist and are a verifiable, notable subject we should be objective and report that. Let's not be hypocrites and let's not push politically correctness to an absurd: deaths related to (scientology, Islam, Christianity, whatever your pick) exist and are in most cases an encyclopedic subject per our policies. --Cyclopia ^talk 15:08, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The title of this list has some serious problems with weasel words in it, because we're not really talking about deaths "related" to Scientology, we're talking about deaths people blame on Scientology. We can try and pretend that this page isn't anti-Scientology activism disguised as an encyclopedia article, but that's exactly what it is. To actually have a list of deaths related to Scientology, we're going to have to start with L. Ron Hubbard and work our way through notable Scientologists who died. AniMate 18:07, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Let me get this straight. In your opinion, we can't list bad things a society/religion/club X of people did because it is "anti-X activism"? Sorry if I go Godwin on this, but following the same reasoning should we delete List of victims of Nazism because it's a despicable, POV anti-Nazi coatrack? note to people challenged in logic: I am not comparing in any way Scientologists to Nazists, I am simply comparing two identical lines of reasoning by only changing the subject --Cyclopia ^talk 18:42, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree you can't simply change the title. On the one hand there is incontrovertible recorded evidence of internationally renowned, artists, musicians, writers, physicians, politicians, and scientists people being shot, gassed, or starved. The other list contains four or five sad cases of everyday human tragedy, where is the case for direct CoS involvement? John lilburne (talk) 23:00, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm saying this needs to have the proper title: List of deaths caused by Scientology or List of deaths attributed to Scientology. Keep in mind that's going to open the door to List of deaths caused by Christianity, List of deaths caused by Judaism and List of deaths caused by Islam. AniMate 18:45, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention List of deaths caused by Ford Motor Company, List of deaths caused by Nissan, List of suicides caused by the Roman Catholic Church etc. Some editors may be comfortable with that; I am not. --JN 466 19:00, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

and then Wikipedia would announce that the world has spiraled into the sun after the entirety of Wikipeida has dissolved into nonsense and the Gravity and orbit articles are vandalized beyond repair.Coffeepusher (talk) 19:06, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Or we could strive for NPOV articles that don't push an agenda. AniMate 19:20, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.