Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Latino ice hockey players

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus (default keep). For more details, please read talk page. Jerry delusional ¤ kangaroo 01:01, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of Latino ice hockey players

List of Latino ice hockey players (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Indiscriminate list about the latino hockey players. Its racist! There isn't a List of Canadian ice hockey players or List of American ice hockey players, so why should the latinos be singled out? This list also fails WP:SALAT as I want to bring this point to the table I found there: "Lists that are too specific are also a problem. The "list of one-eyed horse thieves from Montana" will be of little interest to anyone." Lists of this nature are too specific to really be of interest to many people. What's next, a List of Jamaican bobsledders? Tavix (talk) 00:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of Black ice hockey players (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), found this one as well and nominating for same reasons. Tavix (talk) 00:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Suntag (talk) 20:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I must note that some of these are not the same thing. Black Intellectuals for example was an article about a book which is quite different. -Djsasso (talk) 20:27, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I struck it. Suntag (talk) 20:45, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • But I will note that isn't the only one. Just to pick another one off the list. The MLB one was an unreferenced essay which was original research. This is a verifiable list with references to the phenomenon. -Djsasso (talk) 21:04, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I added some more to the above list. -- Suntag (talk) 21:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I move to delete both of the nominated pages. They are certainly discriminate to race and too specific to be useful. QuidProQuo23 01:06, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete Both per QuidProQuo Mister Senseless™ (Speak - Contributions) 01:11, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both non-notable intersection. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 01:18, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep both, mainly because there aren't that many black or Latino ice hockey players, and the issue of racial diversity in the NHL is a common topic of discussion. See [1] [2], and [3], for starters, and I can dig up more articles if pressed. Zagalejo^^^ 01:51, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • So what? There aren't many or no (name an ethnicity besides Canadian or American) hockey players in the NHL, but why should we have a list for every ethnicity? Simply put, the Blacks and Latinos are being singled out, and that's just plain racist! I thought the world got over that by now. On another note, references #1 and #3 is mainly about Willie O'Ree and his honors, which is just like bringing up an article on Jackie Robinson about baseball: He might have been the first, but there have been more African-Americans after him. Tavix (talk) 02:44, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, please. It's not racist to highlight the accomplishments of minorities in fields where they have little visible presence. It's beneficial to do so. It tells young readers that they can succeed in any discipline regardless of their race/ethnicity. And to answer your first question, there are multiple, non-trivial sources specifically about blacks and Latinos in ice hockey (here are some more general articles than what I linked to above: [4], [5], [6], [7]) so these two general topics satisfy WP:N.
  • I do think it might be better to merge the two articles into a bigger article with more prose, like Minorities in ice hockey, or something like that. But that wouldn't require deletion. Zagalejo^^^ 02:59, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep both Certainly, both articles could use a little bit more context. Even in the 21st century, there are a lot -- and I mean a lot -- fewer black or Hispanic NHL players than there are major league baseball, NFL, NBA, etc. For years, Willie O'Ree was one of the few in pro hockey. That there are more now than there used to be is the product of initiatives, some by the NHL, to try to get more black and Hispanic athletes interested in ice hockey. Historically, though, places where people grow up playing ice hockey have also been places where the non-white population is smaller; and basketball, baseball and even football have been less expensive than ice hockey for a family with a young athlete. Mandsford (talk) 13:31, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep both per alot of what Mandsford and Zagalejo said. It is actually more of a help to those races than being racist to have such lists. I would probably support a merge to List of Minorities in ice hockey or a specific article such as Minorities in ice hockey but an outright delete here is not approrpiate. -Djsasso (talk) 17:00, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Both: I can't see any more reason for this than for lists of black or Latino players in any other sport, lists which I somehow can't find, and to answer Zagalejo's comment, Wikipedia is not for upholding racial pride. If the subject of blacks and Latinos in ice hockey is a noteworthy one (beyond the simple demographic fact that there haven't traditionally been many in hockey-playing areas), then it should be a standalone article or section in Ice hockey.  RGTraynor  16:59, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Racial pride" was not the crux of my argument. I've already linked to seven non-trivial sources that explicitly discuss the issue of diversity in the NHL. I'm sure I could find seven more. A single standalone article on that general topic might be better than these two lists, but such an article would take some time and skill to craft, and until that's done, I see no harm in preserving what we have right now. Zagalejo^^^ 19:13, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • An article is appropriate. A list is not. No one disputes that there is a wealth of sources out there on the subject generally, but as it stands such a list would be indiscriminate and impermissible.  RGTraynor  19:33, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes them indiscriminate? Zagalejo^^^ 05:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • In so far that names are added without any attempt at a definition. Let's take the black list, for instance, where Dirk Graham is added to the list because he has a mixed-race parent. I'm unsure as to what about someone who's (at least) three quarters Caucasian makes him "black," beyond the old racist measure that just a drop of black blood made an otherwise pale person "black." Beyond that, the list includes "semi-professional and prominent amateur league players" without attempting to define or limit either, and fact-checking goes by the boards: one wonders how long "Saucy 'Professional' McFoodlefist" (which has been up on the list nearly a month) would remain, for example. Will those do for starters, or shall I vette the whole list?  RGTraynor  11:35, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, I'd appreciate if you could go through the whole list and list the problematic entries. :) I was planning to clean up that article today, and I could use some help. (I added references to the Latino list last night, because that one was easy.)
  • To answer your main point, as long as we have sources that clearly indicate that a player self-identifies as black, or makes a point of emphasizing his black heritage, then we can leave him in the list. If it's iffy, just leave him out. I'd probably remove the amateurs from the list, unless it seems like they'd be able to pass WP:N. Zagalejo^^^ 18:28, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Both Could of sworn I saw List of Black ice hockey players nominated a while back, with mixed results. Regardless, if these lists are kept, what's to stop us from making such lists as List of Asian ice hockey players, List of European ice hockey players, List of Native American ice hockey players, List of Indian ice hockey players, or even List of White ice hockey players? There is no limit. It's also poorly sourced, and possibly NPOV. Kaiser matias (talk) 17:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment There's kind of a "List of white NHL players" right here. It's called the player index at nhl.com; the exceptions to the thousands of players in the register are the 22 names in these two articles. It's not quite as much of a "trivial intersection" as List of Jewish American athletes because there is a reason for the low number of minorities in ice hockey. Mandsford (talk) 18:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Quite aside from the inaccuracy of your assertion - that list, in fact, does include every player in the NHL, whether white, black, brown or chartreuse - I'm interested on hearing the policy grounds for your support of keeping these lists; truth be told, you haven't actually proffered any reason for doing so.  RGTraynor  05:36, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Always a pleasure hearing from you, RG. The comment about the player index was, of course, intended as a joke, since most of the persons happen to be white; I don't think anyone would actually believe that nhl.com excludes any player from its list. It's like the old joke about a picture of the "White Caucus" in Congress, with a photograph of a joint session. As far as policy grounds, lists such as these are proper for the purpose of illustrating a point (in this case, that there are few NHL players of Hispanic or African-American origin). If someone were to assert, "There never have been any Hispanic players in hockey", this information would disprove the point. And yes, in some cases, ethnic origin is relevant. A list of white football players at historically black universities (HBUs) such as Grambling University, would be encyclopedic. A list of the first 100 African-American players in Major League Baseball would be relevant. If a particular ethnic group has, historically, not been part of a group, it's a fact worth noting and providing information about. Mandsford (talk) 13:11, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I really have no opinion either way on keeping vs. deleting, but some people really need to learn what "racism" really is. Throwing out the race card where it clearly is not warranted is disingenuous. Resolute 17:28, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:SALAT and WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE. Brilliantine (talk) 04:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Both There are so many articles like these not just hockey articles to eliminate this one you will have to delete all the others Gang14 (talk) 19:47, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • For example the Category:Black Canadian sportspeople but we can't allow black or latino hockey players? Gang14 (talk) 19:56, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - List of African American Medal of Honor recipients is a former featured list, so there is room for notable race intersection topics. However, Sports figures are not Medal of Honor recipients, Academy Award winners, billionaires, inventors, or abolitionists - all kept intersection topics. Reasoning that seems applicable is at Non-notable intersections by ethnicity, religion, or sexual preference. In sports, African-Americans are not treated differently from Italian-Americans or French-Americans, even though there is referenced material about all three. If the topic is not legit for a category, I don't think it can be legit for a list. Also, Wikipedia:Listcruft applies. This intersection list will not be able to show how the relationship between African Americans and Ice Hockey is manifested as a notable topic. None of the race-sports intersections have been kept. Relevant deleted articles include: List of African athlete * List of African-American NFL quarterbacks * List of black rock musicians * List of black characters in videogames * Black reality television participants * The Explosion of Latino Players in MLB. It seems that Wikipedia notable race intersection topics require that the race be intersected with an exceptional endeavor (Medal of Honor recipients, Academy Award winners, billionaires, inventors, or abolitionists) rather than a typical endeavor (sports). Suntag (talk) 21:44, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment While sports might be a "typical" endeavor in the sense of many people being athletes, acceptance at the highest level of sport competition in a sport is considered exceptional; a "major league" player is inherently notable, and it would follow that under that criterion, the presence of black or Latino NHL players in a league that hasn't had even 25 such players is a notable "race intersection". Thanks for supplying the appropriate policy; now this becomes a question of whether this meets that policy, and I think a good argument can be made that it does. Mandsford (talk) 02:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • If there are entire books about black hockey players, then it's clear that some people do think it's a notable intersection. For the record, I'm quite surprised the quarterback list was deleted. Perhaps it was woefully incomplete or something, but until recently, black quarterbacks were extremely rare, and there are plenty of sources documenting their struggles to gain acceptance. If I had noticed that discussion, I would have made a fuss to keep the article. Zagalejo^^^ 22:44, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply There are books written about Canadian hockey players too. Seriously, that point does nothing. Tavix (talk) 23:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • But those books don't make a special point of emphasizing the players' Canadian-ness.Zagalejo^^^ 23:10, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep both These are meaningful intersections that have been frequent subjects of media coverage establishing notability. Alansohn (talk) 22:49, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, non-notable intersection. If somebody wants to write an article about Black or Latino NHL players, that would be a good article to have. Corvus cornixtalk 02:44, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, there are entire books about the topic of black ice hockey players, on top of dozens of newspaper articles, so outside commentators do think that's a notable intersection. I'm not against a prose article about diversity in ice hockey, but I don't see why we can't hold onto these lists for now, and merge them into the prose article when it is created. They'd be valuable appendices. Zagalejo^^^ 03:05, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • General comment If these articles are deleted after all, could the administrator at least let me keep copies of them in my userspace? Zagalejo^^^ 03:05, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't think there would be a problem with that. But being I voted keep, I couldn't be the one to do it. -Djsasso (talk) 17:31, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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