Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish leaders in the Land of Israel

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. No consensus that problems with the article can't be fixed through regular editing. Discussions about possible renaming or restructuring should continue on the article's talk page. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{(have a chat)} 04:12, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

List of Jewish leaders in the Land of Israel

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I am afraid of the reaction this will get, but here it is: this list is a terrible OR-fest, it contains just about every loosely defined "Jewish leader" in Israel/Palestine, with the apparent aim of proving some sort of continuity that supports the Jewish claims in the region. In the process, any chronological gaps are ignored, religious figures are mixed with secular leaders, and historical persons with semi-mythical figures from the Bible. Constantine ✍ 17:30, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Smells like a POV effort to prove continuity of the current Israeli government with historic Jewish peoples of the region. Carrite (talk) 18:09, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This article could serve interesting information. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 19:31, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as POV fork Secret ^account 20:56, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

POV fork of which article? --brew crewer (yada, yada) 04:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. This is a terrible list thrown together with a hefty application of confirmation bias to provide a tool for pushing a political agenda that is totally non-partisan really, it's on wikipedia!--Talain (talk) 22:34, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just curious about your recent editing history. You did not make a single edit from mid-September 2010 to mid-September 2012, and since your began editing again almost every single edit has been a vote stack at an afd. This has all the markings of a sockpuppet. Are you currently utilizing another user name on Wikipedia? --brew crewer (yada, yada) 04:30, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Weak delete - it's a little bit WP:SYNTH, a little bit WP:OR and a little bit WP:INDISCRIMINATE but it serves a purpose. That said, I'm willing to accept that the "purpose" might be entirely WP:POV which is not appropriate. I think if a more-than-arbitrary link between the sub-lists was more clearly established and defined, it might have some value. I think, though, the POV genesis of the article might be more than WP:FIXTHEPROBLEM can resolve. Stalwart111 (talk) 23:39, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- And what purpose does this list serve? It's pure OR nonsense that combines a bunch of biblical figures with modern figures and trying to figure out what they all have in common other than being Jewish. The article doesn't even attempt to try to define the definition of a "leader" in this context. Secret ^account 07:05, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - As I said, it may be an entirely POV purpose, which would be inappropriate. If that is the case then it should be deleted. But I'm willing to WP:AGF and accept the original article was created because someone thought there was genuinely a verifiable connection, rather than that someone had invented a connection and was pushing POV. But that doesn't save it and I remain of the view that, on balance, it should be deleted. Stalwart111 (talk) 07:56, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Question What's wrong with including both political and religious leaders? The name of the article doesn't exclude either one, and putting them together avoids the question of who is a Jew? This article's big problem is its seemingly POV origins and the lack of definition of "leader" that Secret observes. Nyttend (talk) 18:43, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - this is breathtakingly POV, drawing a completely ahistorical continuity between the current leaders of the State of Israel with the religious/political Jewish leaders of the ancient Levant. Hell, some of them weren't even leaders in the land of Israel - it clearly lists them as ruling in Egypt or Sinai. HauntologicalPhenomenon (talk) 03:55, 28 September 2012 (UTC)— HauntologicalPhenomenon (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Delete. Gross conflation of completely separate lists, probably with the POV aim that Carrite observes. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:59, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Land of Israel in the title makes it an inherently POV list. The content issues observed above are not accidental. Greater Israel might have been more appropriate in the title given some of the contents. Basically, religious and political leaders are freely interchanged just to prove a certain point that would be ridiculed in any serious history WP:RS. (This is as absurd as writing List of Polish leaders of Poland starting with some legendary king and ending with the current PM. And when the Poles were occupied and didn't have a state, drop in some religious leaders to fill in the gaps.) Tijfo098 (talk) 21:43, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:17, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:29, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:29, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep.The problems that AFD proposer mention could be easily fixed.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 07:21, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Any ideas how? HauntologicalPhenomenon (talk) 08:07, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you're suggesting we split this by topic, we already have that: List of Prime Ministers of Israel, List of Judean rulers, List of Hasmonean and Herodian rulers, List of Sephardi chief rabbis of the Land of Israel, List of High Priests of Israel etc. This aggregate list is just a nonsense mixture of those. I don't see what sub-topic is salvageable from here that doesn't already have a list somewhere else. If you want to write an article about the 3000-year continuity of Jewish of leadership in the Land of Israel, then do it citing secondary sources, not using a WP:OR list. Tijfo098 (talk) 09:13, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and improve because:

This list breaks no new ground and does not violate OR.
This is a list that has been around since 2006.
Suddenly someone decides they don't like it.
It's not a perfect list but it's not much different to any basic outline of history of the Jews in that geographic area known by that name.
See others like this in Timeline of Jewish history -- it's not an easy subject given the vastness of the time and personalities involved.
The nominator's POV is biased. He refers to Biblical characters as "myths" and assumes that everyone shares such views, which they do not.
He also makes the mistake of arguing that because some leaders are "religious" and others "secular" that there is somehow no continuity in the list which a false assumption, all one needs to do is look at modern day Israel where secular politicians makes alliances and wield power with even the most religious Orthodox rabbis. It was always like that in Jewish history.
Another silliness is to get hysterical about the usage of the term Land of Israel which is and was the known legitimate term used in the Hebrew Bible for millennia and is the source for the name of the modern state of Israel.
This nomination also shows a lack of respect for any Jewish editors who are now in the midst of observing the Jewish High Holy Days that continue until the end of Sukkot (1 October 2012 - 9 October 2012). Thank you, IZAK (talk) 08:03, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:LONGTIME, WP:NPA, etc. If you want to convince that this list passes WP:LISTN and is not WP:OR please show us a reliable source listing biblical figures, rabbis, and prime ministers in an aggregate list of these proportions. Thanks. Tijfo098 (talk) 09:49, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As for the myth POV issue, see for example the article on Abraham, which says in the lead that he is "a major character in the founding myth of the Israelites", which seems in line with Abraham#Historicity. So, yeah, this list is assuming a mythical POV as reality, at least for the early part. Tijfo098 (talk) 10:01, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The list is massively OR, since it implicitly asserts that one group of leaders passed on authority to the next group in line, even if the next group is completely unrelated. And don't tell me that no such assertion is made, because then this list has absolutely no reason to exist as nothing else binds these groups together. It is clearly a case where the list's creator asserts that A follows B and then C, and thus we go from Abraham to Natanyahu. The OR involved is clear in cases like the "Rishon le-Zion 1665–1842", which is an excerpt of List of Sephardi chief rabbis of the Land of Israel, which arbitrarily stops in 1842 to pass on the "leadership" to a new group, even while the line of the Sephardi rabbis continues to the present day! Constantine ✍ 10:51, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To Tijfo098 and Cplakidas: WP has produced its own mythical bizarre ecumenical theology that everyone knows does not exist in the real world. Simply because believing Jews and Christians and Muslims accept what the Bible says as fact and not as a myth of any sort, while atheists, Bible critics and many academics do not accept the words of the Bible. WP's job is not to take sides so neither should you. See Wikipedia:Religion that religious topics and thus leaders, especially biblical ones cannot be judged by others' standards certainly not ones that are grand violations of WP:OR by WP ITSELF (yes it is so!). Do I or anyone have to come up with "sources" that JEWISH leaders can mean any one of WP:NOTABLE rabbis, political leaders and Biblical personalities (not myths) going back from modern to Biblical times and those who lived in them? There are plenty of WP articles for that. Jewish history is complex and runs for over 3,300 years and has had all sorts of leaders often in combination, especially coming from different communities. There are always overlaps. Just out of curiosity are you guys denying that the Jews had leaders, of any kind, all the time, in the land of Israel (or whatever makes you feel good to call it)? Thanks, IZAK (talk) 01:07, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and improve per IZAK. The list of leaders adds a useful timeline to Jewish history and WP:OR concerns can easily be remedied. Ankh.Morpork 13:17, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - per Izak, and so far it looks like a correct good list and any issues can be fixed. There isn't any reason to get hysterical and allege that it's part of a grand conspiracy - if the information is correct, and the list has a useful purpose, that isn't a good reason to WP:CENSOR. We're not going to delete articles on Jewish history which show an ancient Jewish community in Israel... Historical facts are historical facts. This list will make navigating across a whole slew of other lists much easier as well. The influence of these leaders on the area has had an impact that lasts until today, and specifically the Jewish part has helped form a specific Jewish identity in their history. --Activism1234 15:20, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Despite the political angst with connecting Jews to the land of what is now the modern state of Israel, the fact remains that Jews have been a part of the land for a long time. There have been Jews, hence there have been rabbis, and hence this list. Issues with a better article name or OR are fixable and give no basis for an AFD.--brew crewer (yada, yada) 16:15, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Please explain how you plan to fix them. Tijfo098 (talk) 17:24, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - I don't necessary plan to or care to fix them. I am merely making the point that they can be easily fixed and therefore the argument for deletion is invalid.--brew crewer (yada, yada) 18:09, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - I also have a bridge to sell. Tijfo098 (talk) 19:08, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      - I'm not sure what that has to do with this, but issues can easily be taken up at the talk page for input from others and fixed. That's how it is with nearly every article here. And indeed, it can work quite well. --Jethro B 19:25, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        Let me clarify something here, because the assumption some make that this is an anti-Israel or anti-Jewish move is wrong: the rationale behind this list and the methodology chosen are simply blatantly POV-driven, OR and plainly unscientific. We know that Jews have been around in the Holy Land continuously since Biblical times; that is not the subject of dispute here. What is at stake is an attempt to prove some sort of continuity of "authority" which is intentionally not defined, but definitely implied to be political when it begins with Abraham and ends not with a religious leader, but with the Prime Ministers of Israel. This is done through joining a disparate set of groups from antiquity to the present day, with some highly selective cherrypicking among these groups on the way. If that is not WP:SYNTH, then I don't know what is. Constantine ✍ 19:59, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        Then if you have a dispute over "authority," that can be taken to the talk page and discussed and fixed... For example, you may be thinking that during the Persian Period, there wasn't a Jewish leader in control, but rather the Persians, but in reality, characters like Zerubabbel, Ezra, and Nehemiah were appointed by the Persian monarchy as governors ("pehah") and granted authority over the province in religious/secular affairs. A character like Hananiah I would suggest removing from that list, as he didn't necessarily have that position. But all of that can be fixed. The section Geonim in exile doesn't seem to be for this article either, and can be removed as well. The article should - and can - be confined to those rulers who had power or authority over the area, and weren't just a sage. However, to deny that even during periods of conquest there weren't Jewish rulers appointed by the monarchy is simply false. All of those that don't fit this description can be fixed. --Jethro B 20:42, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        If you can define for me what a "Jewish leader" is in clear and non-OR terms, then I would have no objection to withdrawing the deletion nomination and we can prune the list accordingly. The list is by its very name (originally "Leaders of Israel") conceived in so broad a frame that just about any person of note can be put in it, which indeed is what the original creator (I note that it was a WP:SPA, always a clear sign of POV-driven edits) has done. There is a world of difference between sovereign rulers like the kings of Israel, the kings-archpriests, secular leaders like the modern state's PMs, leaders of Jewish religious communities under foreign rule, or with religious scholars. I am fully aware that historically religious leaders have exercised broad authority over religious/ethnic minorities (as a Greek I know the millet system), but to take the Palestinian Gaonate for instance, "scholastic heads of the Land of Israel" is not the same as "leaders of the Jewish community". Constantine ✍ 21:11, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        Me personally? Any person who was able to exert authority over the region. If there was a religious leader who didn't have actual power, I'd say it shouldn't be included. But that's me. This is the perfect discussion necessary for a talk page - and based on it, we can improve the article. But the discussion is possible and any issues can be fixed. --Jethro B 21:15, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        
        We should describe what WP:RS desribe.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 07:01, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Per my comment above, after further reflection and listening to the debate: this is a POV exercise. "Land of Israel" is not a single governmental or territorial entity; this list pretends that it is — with obvious political intent. Carrite (talk) 02:26, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but as far as the Jewish people are concerned, and that is what this about, the land of Israel is one totality, both as a concept in the Jewish religion and as a political and practical entity. What don't I get? Like saying that the land of Gaul is not really French because it has had different rulers and dynasties and borders over thousands of years. IZAK (talk) 01:17, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's presumptuous for one to speak for all Jewish people. Not all Jewish people are Zionists; fewer still would make the extraordinary claim of thousands of years of organizational continuity that this list implies. Carrite (talk) 02:39, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Carrite: No one is speaking for "all" the Jewish people. That is your imagination. But in an article and in books one must start somewhere, just as in a history of Gaul/France one must start somewhere and while over thousands of years at times pagans and then knights and then bishops and popes had as much power as later temporal kings today it is the President of France whoever he may be at any given time who is regarded as the preeminent leader of all the French people. So, this is just a bare-bones outline or timeline trying to be all-inclusive, while not perfect it's a good start and should not be demolished, per the suggestions at WP:DONOTDEMOLISH. Thrashing Zionists is not to the point. The fact of the matter is that for the last 100 years the secular Zionist JEWISH leadership has had the upper hand and is in almost total political control of the Jews who live in it. Prior to that it was rabbis of various sorts who were at the helm because in those days the majority of Jews were religious. Prior to that there were times such as during the Greek and Roman era, there was constant seesawing for control of the Jews between the more and the less religious or even non-religious leaders, but they were almost all of Jewish stock. Within the land of Israel/Judea/Palestine (whatever any dominant powers of the day called it) there was a continuous line of Jewish leadership. Today the Prime Minister of Israel is the de facto and de jure most obvious and prominent leader of the Israeli Jews (actually by majority of the Jews in the Knesset) so it's actually even a very democratic fact. IZAK (talk) 03:21, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me. What does THIS mean: (quote) "Sorry but as far as the Jewish people are concerned, and that is what this about, the land of Israel is one totality, both as a concept in the Jewish religion and as a political and practical entity..." (my emphasis, end quote) That's EXACTLY what is being done, someone is wrongly pretending to speak for universal Jewish support for the fringe ultra-nationalist perspective implied by this list. That is bunk. This list would be akin to something called List of Latin leaders of the Land of Rome, including Julius Caesar and Diocletian and Benito Mussolini and Silvio Berlusconi and Giorgio Napolitano as if there is any sort of continuity between any of these. Except in the "Land of Israel" case, it is clearly an attempt to legitimize the last mentioned by connecting it with antecedents. This is a POV exercise, plain and simple. Carrite (talk) 04:15, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Except that Mussolini was Italian, not "Latin." This list actually has a basis and a foundation rooted in history. What you believe to be some POV exercise actually seems to me as a useful resource for one wishing to learn about Jewish history, a list that can be improved and fixed and made better without getting deleted and provide useful historical information. --Jethro B 04:22, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's EXACTLY the same thing. A pretended continuity where there is none. Carrite (talk) 04:24, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Um Carrite, there is no such animal as "Land of Rome" while the entity and name Land of Israel i.e. Eretz Yisrael ארץ ישראל in Hebrew is Biblical in origin and continues through the time of the Hebrew Prophets, Rabbinic eras, and down through secular times, and remains in widely accepted usage by both religious and secular Jews in Israel. So not sure what you are getting hot under the collar about. When you state "someone is wrongly pretending to speak for universal Jewish support for the fringe ultra-nationalist perspective implied by this list" it sounds like baloney because it's a non-issue since we are trying to write an encyclopedia here and we have to bite the bullet somewhere and start somewhere. You are projecting left-wing politics and politically correct views onto ancient nomenclature still used. Sure there are so many types of Jews they cannot be counted, there are Jews who deny they are Jews. There are Jews that eat pork. There are Jews who believe in Jesus. There are Jews who don't even know what it means to be a Jew. There are Jews who are self-hating Jews. Etc, etc, etc ad nauseum. What does that prove? only that ignorance is bliss (at best). On the other hand, an objective WP:NPOV respectable encyclopedia should state, according to tradition XYZ such and such is the case, but opposing views do not accept this, but not cut down the whole corpus because you don't like the facts or can't deal with them or are incapable of computing them the way they are done in almost all Jewish scholarly circles. Jews are Jews whether they are from the Bible or rabbis or secular, and if they hold supreme power in Israel they are its leaders. Why should that be so confusing? IZAK (talk) 09:32, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

- If there's an issue with the title, why not request a title change on the talk page, rather than delete it?? --Jethro B 01:49, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep "Leaders" will mean different things in different centuries. It would be odd if the definition remained absolutely constant for that term over long periods of human history. I don't think titles of articles are 100% exacting that no word is ever slightly imprecise. Besides, a religious "leader" can provide direction for a large group of people, being functionally similar to other sorts of leaders. Bus stop (talk) 02:13, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per LISTN. I can't imagine that anyone is going to argue that this "grouping or set in general" is not discussed in reliable sources. Also per IZAK and brewcrewer. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 07:12, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Brecrewer but Rename : "Despite the political angst with connecting Jews to the land of what is now the modern state of Israel, the fact remains that Jews have been a part of the land for a long time." Anyway, there were such communities all over Europe and Middle East and there is no reason to focus on "Palestine area" after 70 PCN and before Zionism and Jewish exodus from Arab lands -> "List of Jewish leaders in Levant" (and expand for all Jewish communities of that area). Pluto2012 (talk) 04:53, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - per Izak. This AfD is based on attempts to push POV claiming certain figures regarded by the mainstream as historical are mythological, and additionally attempts to suppress encyclopedic information that could be seen as refuting the political narrative of the proposer. Jewish leadership in the Land of Israel is important in the history of the Jewish people because this leadership and their community were typically viewed as representing the Jewish people as a whole and having the highest authority in many matters, thinking that has persisted for millennia although constantly evolving together with the nature of that leadership. Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 07:32, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, but remove the biographical details for each person as this is a list and not an article. JFW | T@lk 07:49, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I am not a great fan of Wikipedia lists, but this one is as valid as any other. People who spend their time arguing endlessly over deleting articles they don't like would be doing Wikipedia and its readers a greater service by devoting their excess energy to improving the articles they do like by adding more sourced information and relevant images.--Geewhiz (talk) 08:57, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
keep Clearly something which has been a historically and theologically important matter to a major religion. Would we be having this discussion if the list were List of Jewish Leaders in the British Isles? The fact that this list would be a more controversial topic given current politics is not an argument to distinguish them. The OR argument is also extremely weak- most of these figures are people where there are easily sources for where they resided and their importance. The argument about leaders being hard to define is also unpersuasive- the fact that Gaons were highly influential even beyond their own communities is something that can be easily seen in a large variety of secondary sources. The only substantial issue I can see here are I) that the article as written has some POV issues in the introduction (which can be easily fixed) and II) that the title is slightly problematic since defining "Land of Israel" is difficult (even during Biblical times, territory changed over time). I can be fixed by editing. II can probably be fixed by retitling to something like "List of Jewish leaders in Palestine" and making the list explicitly narrow enough to contain only people prior to 1948, or using a title like "List of Jewish leaders in Israel/Palestine" or something else similar. The best solution and exact scope is editorial decision not suited for AfD. JoshuaZ (talk) 12:29, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep I find the arguments advocating deletion unconvincing and, as IZAK suggested, inappropriate considering this proposal has come up in the middle of the Jewish High Holy Days. It comes dangerously close to trying to sneak one by though I have tried my best to assume good faith. That said, I see tremendous merit in the suggestion made by JFW suggesting a restructuring of content. What problem could I find with making sure this article falls in to line with WP:CLN and WP:L? --yonkeltron (talk) 12:32, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The article provides a comprehensive list as described, broken down by era and backed by appropriate reliable and verifiable sources. Alansohn (talk) 15:50, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I would keep this article. As it is now, it is not very good at all, but it is fixable. Everything that is on here should be moved over to the talk page and should be discussed. But I feel that this is pretty useful to have a list of leaders in chronological order. Yossiea (talk) 16:17, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.