Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Belgium international footballers born outside Belgium

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Doczilla _{@SUPERHEROLOGIST} 05:59, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

List of Belgium international footballers born outside Belgium

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As with List of Bahrain international footballers born outside Bahrain (AfD), List of Iran international footballers born outside Iran (AfD) and List of Norway international footballers born outside Norway (AfD), I fail to see how this list meets our inclusion criteria. Fails WP:LISTN due to lack of coverage on these individuals as a group or set and also violates WP:INDISCRIMINATE and appears to be a non-encyclopaedic cross-categorisation. In other words, where is the evidence of detailed discussion regarding the birthplaces of Belgium international footballers? It seems to me to be a trivial characteristic. Could be merged perhaps but I fail to see why this information is important as Wikipedia is not supposed to be an exhaustive collection of stats. Just because information can be verified by statistics databases doesn't mean that we absolutely need to have an article on it. By the same logic, we wouldn't have List of Belgium international footballers taller than 1.80m even if such a list could be verified against databases. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:35, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists of people, Football, and Belgium. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:35, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:51, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No different to similar lists that have also recently been deleted. Violates WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Fats40boy11 (talk) 11:20, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, I have added a few sources to the article which focus on precisely this topic. More work could definitely be done on improving the referencing. To say this one is no different to any others because they are on the same topic is somewhat lazy. I'm not sure how much I would find online about Iran, but as expected I found several about Belgium pretty quickly. Crowsus (talk) 14:52, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In no shape or form have any of those other articles affected my judgement here. The judgement that I made is that the article violates WP:INDISCRIMINATE the same way the other lists in my opinion did. Nothing in this discussion from what I can see is lazy. You have made your point just like others will make theirs, but I don’t think it’s fair to say that it’s somewhat lazy. Fats40boy11 (talk) 15:15, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I found several references to the exact topic under discussion with not much effort, so I don't think it's fair to double down on your claim of indiscriminate in relation to Belgian players. The fact that you admit that the sources I have provided don't change your opinion suggests nothing would change your mind, so if you want to quote guidelines, sounds like a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT to me.

I also have to comment on "we wouldn't have List of Belgium international footballers taller than 1.80m". What utter nonsense. The single differentiating factor in international sports is birthplace. Normally where you are from is the team you represent, there are of course several loopholes and caveats but it's still fairly unusual for that not to be the case and given the high profile of most international teams in this sport, that usually receives media coverage in some detail, and where that it is presented collectively it also makes it a valid topic (though not necessarily cast iron certainty) for a Wikipedia article. If there was some height based selection criteria for teams, and a loophole occasionally permitted players not meeting that standard to still be included, you can bet that would be commented upon at length in the media in certain countries, and would likewise be worthy of inclusion here. I couldn't see any attempt to make this comparison in the previous AfDs so not sure why it has been added now. Crowsus (talk) 15:44, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t necessarily agree with all of your points and it’s definitely not a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. However, I will agree to disagree with you on this. Whatever the outcome of the AFD may be, I will respect the decision and of course I respect your opinion. Fats40boy11 (talk) 15:58, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As will I, of course. Nothing personal. Crowsus (talk) 18:13, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to assess some of the sources. One issue is that they seem to focus more on ethnicity rather than birthplace - this is a similar but not identical topic to the one at hand. VP - at many points, this discusses Belgian-born players such as Marouane Fellaini, Zakaria Bakkali and Adnan Januzaj all of whom are only mentioned because of their ethnicity rather than birthplace. La Libre mentions naturalisation, which is of course relevant, but also lists players that don't meet the criteria such as Juan Lozano (never played for Belgium - correct me if I'm wrong) and Enzo Scifo, which is completely bizarre. Voetbal Krant discusses players with dual nationality but doesn't strictly discuss foreign-born players. In fact, the majority of this list are actually born in Belgium such as Michy Batshuayi, Yannick Carrasco, Nacer Chadli, Mousa Dembélé and Radja Nainggolan. It seems that the topic of "List of Belgium international footballers with foreign roots" is well covered as it seems the media is interested in footballers of different ethnicities but birthplace seems to take a backseat. For example, to draw a relevant comparison with an England international, I can't imagine anyone would say that England 'stole' Terry Butcher off Singapore! Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 17:10, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I think there is sufficient coverage to show notability. Giant Snowman 15:18, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 11:09, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, fails WP:NLIST, sourcing added to the article focuses on the seperate topic of ethnicity rather than place of birth, meaning this is still non-notable. Devonian Wombat (talk) 11:26, 2 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – I fail to see the notability of any list of this sort. That said, if anyone can show me where there has been independent discussion of the overall topic of international footballers born outside the nations they represent – i.e. more than just a passing "Sydney Leroux was born in Canada but played her senior international soccer in the United States" – then please ping me back to this discussion. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 23:09, 3 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.