Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Israeli terrorism/Closed June 11, 2005 vote

This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was no consensus. Vote tally is something like 8 delete, 19 keep, 14 merge, 1 keep or merge, 1 rename. At any rate, no possibility for a delete. For the nonce I am calling this a keep, but a merge with state terrorism might also be possible, although such an action should probably be discussed on the talkpage first. Sjakkalle (Check!) 10:43, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Israeli terrorism

This discussion was not linked to the main VfD page, so I guess, the countdown for it starts today. mikka (t) 02:32, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I am electing to have this page deleted as it is just an epithet. It should be inserted into the political epithets page. Scarabar
• See my comment for Zionist terrorism. It's just a pity you can't put so much energy into actually improving the encyclopaedia. Grace Note 04:01, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Comment: Yea... i just checked Scarabar's user contributions and it seems like all he's done so far is contribute to these two VFD's and revert a quote on the Arab page... *sigh*Sasquatch′↔Talk↔Contributions 04:17, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

• Keep Neither an epithet nor does it have to be a bad article. Major revision is in progress. (also added the inital posters signature) --LouieS 07:15, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Either redirect to Israeli State terrorism or Merge into State terrorism, depending on the consensus and arguments to be submitted. I am of the opinion that many countries should have a State terrorism article devoted specifically to them, so that would be my first option. El_C 02:41, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC) — Changing my preference, as per Hoary and Mustafaa, and I note that I should be paying closer attention. El_C 09:40, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep These pro-Israel people are so filled up with hate towards Palestine and Palestinians they dream of using this site as another propaganda tool to spread their nonsense lies and cover up their war crimes and continued atroceties. User:EternalSleeper

Well, you're either blind or stupid. Shall we review the facts, or would that be too destructive of the point you're asserting? Is it the 'pro-Israel' people who are raised from birth being told the ultimate act they can do is to kill themselves while trying to kill as many of the 'enemy' as possible? Do the 'pro-Israel' people march through the streets wishing death upon their 'enemies'? Does Israeli TV carry hate-filled polemic sermons advocating the eradication of the palestinians? Are Israeli and Jewish extremists hero-worshipped or a small marginalised group kept under control by Israeli police? Why don't you look at where the hatred ACTUALLY comes from in this conflict instead of producing non-sensical rantings? Curiosity 08:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a political forums. Save your discussions for other sites. This is a VfD about this article, not a debate about the situation in the Middle East. As difficult as it may be, try to leave politics out of this. Judge the article on its merits and on its Wikipediability. And don't let your support for or opposition of Israel or Palestine get in the way of common sense. Aecis 22:18, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. Will the proposer (a sock for sure) agree to also move Palestinian terrorism and militancy to political epithets? --Zero 07:27, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Delete. Actually, 'palestinian terrorism' fits the definitions of terrorism (and yes, I know the actual definition is disputed). Palestinian terrorism is deliberately trying to cause mass death and destruction among civilians to achieve a political end. On the other hand, this, rather pathetic, entry, has to twist actions, ignore factors and generally twist itself in to a bizarre form to make it seem like it's 'terrorism'. It twists military and self defensive actions. It ignores facts when they don't support the assertions, and indeed is the most badly written, biased and disputed entry on wiki. It only exists because the Israel-haters can't bear to see a 'palestinian terrorism' page without having to try and come up with one of their own. Curiosity 08:09, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Also, Israel already has its own section under state terrorism, why does it need another one all on its own? I would guess for the same reason that the world thinks Israel deserves to be picked out on its own for everything it does, irrespective of anyone else doing the same or worse and not being called on it. It's called 'victimisation'.

• Keep (pending revision) The issue is too important to be neglected or subsumed into another article. Yet changes are necessarly. beginning with the polemic title, which belongs on FlameWar.com and not on Wikipedia. This subject demands the utmost detachment and attention to facts. More details should to given.
• Merge with Zionist terrorism and rename into a less loaded title. IMO there is no reason to split the hair. But if there is, it better be explained. mikka (t) 02:22, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Nothing more than a page full of anti-Israeli propaganda.Enviroknot 02:33, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Like many nations, Israel has committed acts of terrorism. An article about them is deserved. -- Hoary 02:46, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC) . . . . PS Alternatively, redirect to State_terrorism#Israel. However, State terrorism ought either (i) to say a lot more or (ii) to split up — and if (ii) the simplest solution would be Israeli terrorism (etc etc). -- Hoary 09:12, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC)
• Keep. I don't oppose merge but would prefer to leave that to those editing. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 03:51, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Merge with state terrorism for now, keep if someone expands it sufficiently. - Mustafaa 03:52, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep seems like there sufficient information to warrant its own article and its a pretty large notable subject. POV is not a reason for deletion unless it is EXTREMELY severe and I fail to see that here. It definitely needs some cleanup and editing though. Sasquatch′↔Talk↔Contributions 04:17, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Delete. Yet another in the long and pervasive attempts to demonize the state of Israel, presenting it as a criminal state, apart and beyond any other nation. There are no such articles as (for example) American terrorism, Irish terrorism, or Pakistani terrorism -- although similar (biased) entries could be made for them. Yet there is one targeting Israel exclusively -- such an entry is inherently non-NPOV, so long as it is concerned separately with Israel. --LeFlyman 05:03, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • My argument is that there should be such articles, prefixed State terrorism; that Israel was targetted first in that sense (and that it dosen't say State), is a problematic I have commented on elsewhere and would probably be counter-productive to reiterate beyond this. El_C 05:46, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • I would be in agreement with a removal of this as a separate article and merge of its content into State Terrorism --LeFlyman 04:12, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. No substantial evidence that this is terrorism rather than action against legitimate military targets. Capitalistroadster 05:05, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Needs revision and/or renaming. Taking out a Palestinian terrorist leader is not the same as random murder of Palestinian civilians. Anthony Appleyard 05:12, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Cleanup to reduce POV issues on both sides. - Given that all other nation-states accused of commiting terrorist acts have their entries under state terrorism - it seems logical to merge this article with that one, perhaps with a redirect. --FCYTravis 09:07, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete It seems that the charge of terrorism can be leveled at Israel only under a broad definition. While some people prefer to loosen the definition out of political expediency it really robs the word terrorism of its meaning. That's not denying that the Israeli military has committed (sometimes criminal) act of violence against civilians, but calling these acts terrorism really breaks the NPOV of the article. Find a better name. --Cypherx 06:13, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Merge with state terrorism, limit scope of charges only to those committed by the state of Israel (nothing before founding of Israel), and avoid the more controvertial charges (such as Sabra and Shatilla). --Cypherx 10:07, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. The issue shouldn't be diminished since many of the events are unfortunately very contemporary and the acts are occasionally referred to as terrorism in various media. This El_C's solution sounds the most appropriate: redirect to Israeli State terrorism, all the contents of Zionist terrorism should be moved there as well. Most of the actions described there are esentially linked with the Israeli state and even geographically are happening mostly within a close distance to the borders, so separate article for just Zionist terrorism apart from Israel state's one is unnecessary and creates undesired POV tensions. --Oneliner 07:08, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with this reoccuring suggestion to merge Zionist terrorism and Israeli state terrorism. I think it's a worse violation of NPOV to associate the actions of pre-Israel paramilitary groups with the Israeli government than it is to have an article on Zionist terrorism. Irgun and Lehi were a small minority of Jewish militants in the 1930s and 1940s, and the majority disagreed with and distanced themselves from violence against civilians. You can't equate Irgun or Lehi with Israel. Flip the tables and see if this merge still makes sense. Imagine a Palestinian state is formed and now on wikipedia there exists an article called Palestinian state terrorism, detailing every attack on civilians performed by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Izzadin al-Qassam, etc. Doesn't seem to make sense. --Cypherx 08:01, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Delete and merge with state terrorism.

Guy Montag 07:38, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Delete and merge with Israeli state terrorism and/or state terrorism :ThaddeusFrye 07:50, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and rename Israel State terrorism. Do not merge with Zionist terrorism as there is a distinction between the two, the Zionist movement existed before the state of Israel did. This is a very worthy article about which much can be written. -CunningLinguist 08:10, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep or Merge with State terrorism depending on how large the content of the revision becomes. -ÅfÇ++ 08:18, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Strong keep (of the content), but I would not object to a merge (and redirect) into Zionist Terrorism in order to avoid unnnecesary redundancy/forking. Blackcats 08:35, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep agree with CunningLinguist JamesBurns 10:38, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. This is inherently encyclopedic and needed for this Wikipedia. Bratsche^{talk 5 pillars} 12:54, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
• Merge with state terrorism -- Stereotek 14:06, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• STRONG DELETE [I believe the article is inherently POV]. -STORM LEGION666 15:56, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) — (The text in brackets was originally written by Newkidd and has been refactored by android per WP:RPA.)
  • Welcome to Wikipedia, STORM LEGION666. I've noticed that, with you're newly created user account, you've already managed to cast votes much like this one in seven vfd's (although you've done nothing else). -- BD2412 ^talk 16:24, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC)
• Keep In need of a cleanup, verification can be hard, but is needed. Could also do with slightly less POV. -Snorre/Antwelm 16:08, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep - No valid NPOV reson to remove. --Irishpunktom\^talk 16:46, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep - Totally valid topic.Yuber^(talk) 19:15, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep Difficult to argue with the fact that it's POV and requires revision, but that's not what this vote is about. The subject is a valid one. Leithp 20:09, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Merge with State terrorism. --Carnildo 20:57, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Rename and rewrite, but ultimately keep - no other article about terrorism has a title as provacative as this one, save for Palestinian terrorism and militancy. The title could easily be changed to something like Terrorism in Israel, just like Terrorism in Kashmir. For what it's worth, it might be worth it just to merge this article and Palestinian terrorism and militancy into one big (but not too big, split if necessary of course) happy Terrorism in Israel article. StopTheFiling 23:25, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. The subject is valid, though it seems POV. Frankchn 02:13, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Merge with partly redundant content on State terrorism page. — RJH 14:38, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Actually, I vote to keep this page and link it as a "main article" link from the State terrorism. (The Israeli section on that page should then be trimmed.) Might as well have a page for this stuff that can then be neutralized. — RJH 14:45, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Merge with State terrorism. Kaldari 22:16, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete The page is filled with unrealistic stretches of the definition of the word terrorism, producing a high POV. Ejecting people from land is not terrorism. It's been done many times in history, for example, the Czech ejected Germans after WWII. It's not necessarily right, but that doesn't make it terrorism. Military responses to terrorism isn't also terrorism. Military actions are not terrorism. Civilian casualties during war are not considered terrorism. Excessive acts committed by Israelis that were internally prosecuted by Israelis are not really terrorism. The individual articles on the pages. Barneygumble 18:40, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Merge with State terrorism and Redirect. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:30, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Merge with State terrorism, and replace this article thereafter with a redirect thereto. This is a contentious topic, and it's patently obvious, unfortunately, that a number of editors are allowing their personal POVs to interfere with their votes on this issue. Until Iranian terrorism, Iraqi terrorism (which is currently a redirect to the anti-"Freedom coalition" nonsense going on in Iraq, rather than what would be relevent, in keeping with the content of this article (i.e., Israeli terrorism), Yemeni terrorism (or Yemenite terrorism)), Libyan terrorism, Syrian terrorism, Egyptian terrorism and Indonesian terrorism get their own articles, this one is completely unjustified. This is nothing more than POV-pushing, and anyone who votes to keep it belies any claim they make to being a NPOV editor. Tomer ^TALK 07:43, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Presumably you would also support a delete of Palestinian terrorism and militancy? 62.253.64.14 20:42, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Are you equating Palestinians with the P.A.? Your vote seems to indicate that. Palestinian terrorism and militancy seems much more related to Zionist terrorism. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:49, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I quote from the Palestinian terrorism and militancy article "The term Palestinian terrorism is commonly used for militant acts of violence committed by Palestinian citizens or organizations against Israelis, Jews, and at times against nationals of other countries." It talks about citizenship - how else is this to be interpreted if not with reference to the Palestinian Authority? Not all Israeli's are Zionists - presumably the Israeli Govt acts in the name of all of them. 62.253.64.14 00:09, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, that doesn't make sense, since many of the actions listed were taken by Palestinians who weren't citizens of anything. In any event, the text now reads "Palestinian individuals or groups", and in either form clearly did not refer to the Palestinian Authority, whereas the Israeli terrorism article is all about the actions of the government of Israel. Finally, your presumption about the Israeli govt is simply wrong; it does not act in the name of all Israelis, not even all Zionist Israelis, as witnessed by the significant resistance to the currently planned withdrawal from the Gaza Strip - more importantly, I don't even see how that is relevant. Clearly Palestinian terrorism and militancy is more related to Zionist terrorism than Israeli terrorism, which as the article stands, consists of (uncited) allegations of State terrorism. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Keep and rename/move to Israeli state terrorism, I agree with those saying it should not merge with Zionist terrorism as these are two seprate issues. Saswann 13:03, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Keep the subject is relevant and topical. To treat Israel as different from the Plaestinian Authority is POV.62.253.64.14 20:46, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. POV. Gamaliel 00:12, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Delete what are the anti Israel people going to think of next? Kosher terrorim? --Diglewop 06:19, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Delete Don't let Wikipedia become a place for this kind of noisy propaganda. Deeptrivia 22:39, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Merge & Redir to State terrorism. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 03:47, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

VfD procedure?

Sorry about my ignorance of how a vote for deletion works, but what do we do after the required period has passed? It doesn't seem that we'll reach any consensus on which course is the best. Some want to delete the article (for non-neutral POV), some want to keep it (for describing related historical events) and others want to delete the individual article and merge it as a section of State terrorism (which now seems to me the best choice). If we don't have a majority for any of the choices, how do we pick which to do? --Cypherx 10:07, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Someone (usually an administrator) will close the voting and implement the decision. In case there isn't a clear consensus for deletion or merging, the default is to keep the article. There isn't a firm definition of consensus but typically at least a 2/3 majority is expected. ---Zero 10:14, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.