Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/English rule in Wales

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect‎ to Wales in the Late Middle Ages. Aoidh (talk) 05:29, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

English rule in Wales

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This article is basically a POV content fork (one of a number of POV content forks originally created by the same editor) that has been discussed at some length on the Talk page. Wales was conquered by Edward I of England in the 1280s and became formally annexed to England in the 1500s. This coincides exactly with the period described in the pre-existing article, Wales in the Late Middle Ages. Of the content of English rule in Wales, with the exception of two small paragraphs about Penal laws and Henry VII of England's relationship to Wales, the content is not about English rule in Wales (i.e. the making of Wales, the Normans, Conquest of Wales, Welsh rebellions) and these sections repeat (usually originating by direct copies of the substantial amounts of text in) other articles. Wales in the Late Middle Ages is a far more appropriate place for any content about the administration of Wales during that period (it already has lots of information about the castles used for administration and control) and I'd suggest English rule in Wales is, at best, redirected there. Subjects such as the 'Penal laws' can easily be mentioned. Sionk (talk) 19:10, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Wales-related deletion discussions. Sionk (talk) 19:10, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 19:19, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Wales in the Late Middle Ages or delete, per nom, covers same period and allows for generalisation rather than through a particular POV. Some content overlaps with Welsh rebellions against English rule so some content may be merged there if needed, but this title should be redirected to Wales in the Late Middle Ages. Dank Jae 19:41, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Per Sionk, this is a classic WP:POVFORK. Original text was made by copy pasting from other articles, and although I spent a lot of time improving referencing on this page, those improvements are easily carried over by me to the pages from which this one was sourced (and I have already somewhat done so). The amount of duplication of this particular content is problematic, with the same text having been copied to multiple pages, and rationalisation by removing the POVFORKS is very much in order. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:28, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - per nominator. This is also emblematic of a wider issue with this editor that will need to be addressed, [1]. KJP1 (talk) 20:59, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - (second choice would be a merge) PVFORKs are non-neutral fork of content and this article has a neutral POV as per Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. There's no evident bias or non-neutral views in the text. In reality an argument could be made that it's a WP:SPINOUT which is considered acceptable.

If anything, a far more reasonable suggestion would be a merge with Welsh rebellions against English rule for example. I am concerned that this deletion proposal could be some form of retaliation because of disagreement with the publication of Foreign relations of Wales, but I will assume good faith. Titus Gold (talk) 21:40, 14 April 2023 (UTC) — Note to closing admin: Titus Gold (talk • contribs) is the creator of the page that is the subject of this AfD. [reply]

Per the discussion on the talk page, Sionk first mooted deletion on 22 March. This is not retaliatory. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:06, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, quite a strange accusation, I thought I was generally one of the more supportive contributors (though it's all relative) for Foreign relations of Wales. There would be no point in merging anything further to Welsh rebellions because that article was created by wholesale copying of the information in English rule in Wales (which had in turn originated from wholesale copying from other articles). Sionk (talk) 16:44, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep -- I am far from sure that the title is right, but this is covering rather more than Wales in the Late Middle Ages, so that it is not a duplicate. What the article does not adequately recognise that that the principality administration only covered of about half of what we now call Wales, the rest being made up of a large number of marcher lordships. Until someone can offer a credible merge/redirect target, I would be prepared to keep this. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:22, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Wales in the Late Middle Ages as AtD. Doesn't fit WP:SUMMARY as a sub article. No objection if a conensus forms for another target. // Timothy :: talk 03:20, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or redirect to Wales in the Late Middle Ages. This article opens "English rule in Wales is the period in the history of Wales from the conquest of Wales by Edward I to the Laws in Wales Acts of Henry VIII", while Wales in the Late Middle Ages opens with "Wales in the Late Middle Ages spanned the years 1282-1542, beginning with conquest and ending in union", so this article appears to duplicate identically the existing topic (which only has 11kB of prose so it's not like any splits are needed). Prefer delete to redirect if as mentioned the text is all copied from elsewhere, as I'm not sure the title would naturally lead to this particular period of history. CMD (talk) 04:34, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Welsh rebellions against English rule or another appropriate article that is not a fork. Some Welsh, like Grandma Logan, loved the English, their language, and Anglicanism, without sacrificing her own language and culture. Bearian (talk) 15:05, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Grandma Logan may be on to something there. "English rule in Wales" is a plausible search term for Welsh rebellions against English rule. More plausible than for Wales in the Late Middle Ages even. Sionk (talk) 15:59, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For those who are saying this is a POVFORK what about British rule in Ireland? I believe the latter is a notable topic distinct from the various Irish history articles, primarily because there are sources explicitly about British rule in Ireland. Alternately, this article could be rewritten to an explicitly historiographical focus, something like Wales as a colony (sources: [2][3][4][5] etc.) (t · c) buidhe 01:41, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not seeing what doesn't make that a CFORK either as it currently reads. Certainly there are sources on British rule in Ireland, but the article as it stands is just a few one paragraph summaries of different periods of history, rather than a clearly distinct article on the topic of British (and English?) rule. There might be an article about some topic possible under English rule in Wales or a similar title too, but the current article is just copying of text from elsewhere. CMD (talk) 01:53, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.