Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cameron's Crossing railway station

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge‎ to Okaihau Branch. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 22:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cameron's Crossing railway station

Cameron's Crossing railway station (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Very little evidence of a station existing by this name. The article has two sources; one of which itself cites Wikipedia and is likely a WP:REFLOOP. The only other source is a line entry in a list of all railway stations in New Zealand by their opening and closing dates. Looking at maps of the line using MapsPast during the era which this source says the station was operational, there is no sign of a station between Kawiti and Ngapipito (the supposed location of Cameron's Crossing per the main Okaihau Branch article).

A substantial online search has also turned up nothing (most results were along the lines of "Cameron's crossing of the..." rather than a place by that name), and a search by Daveosaurus of papers from the time using Papers Past turned up no results for the supposed area of the station (but did find earlier references to a station by that name in Southland, which was renamed as Makarewa Junction and is covered in the article of Makarewa). The WP:PROD was delisted with a suggestion to consider alternatives such as a merge or redirect, but given the station doesn't have any solid evidence of its existence these don't seem like suitable options. Turnagra (talk) 20:51, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletion discussions. Turnagra (talk) 20:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. Turnagra (talk) 20:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's odd. I did a search of Papers Past and found reference to Cameron's Crossing being located opposite Orauta Native School. Paora (talk) 21:08, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely interesting. There is something there and visible on Retrolens https://files.interpret.co.nz/Retrolens/Imagery/SN209/Crown_209_551_57/High.jpg as at 1950 - it could be a 10' x 10' shed, or it could (with some imagination) be a tiny railway station, but it's not named or shown as a station (or even as any building at all) on NZMS 1 as at 1942 https://geodatahub.library.auckland.ac.nz/public/maps/LINZ/NZMS/NZMS_001/jpg/NZMS001_N15_1942.jpg or as at 1965 https://geodatahub.library.auckland.ac.nz/public/maps/LINZ/NZMS/NZMS_001/jpg/NZMS001_N15_1965.jpg . Daveosaurus (talk) 10:51, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Turnagra, Cameron's Crossing is still mentioned in Okaihau Branch (closed 28 January 1974). If that is wrong, we should correct it. Even if it is a former station, redirecting to Okaihau Branch is still a viable WP:ATD is it not? ~Kvng (talk) 21:47, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I wanted the AfD discussion to take place first, in case something came out that I missed and it turned out that it actually did exist and we'd need to edit the Okaihau Branch article again. I'm still not entirely convinced that a specific station by this name existed (though I'm less certain after Paora's find), which is why I didn't suggest a redirect instead. Turnagra (talk) 21:51, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see what Bruce Hermann's 2007 book North Island branch lines has to say when the libraries reopen on 3 January. Paora (talk) 22:52, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I don't know Northland well enough to be sure enough to !vote "delete", but I was not able to find any railway station under that name in Papers Past other than an ephemeral station somewhere near Makarewa Junction, Southland, in the 1870s. Daveosaurus (talk) 10:31, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: If there's not enough information to prove the station even existed, there's definitely not enough to pass GNG. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 21:18, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge / redirect to Okaihau Branch. There is sufficient evidence that there was a stop called Cameron's Crossing 7 km from the Otiria end of the line, from the railway notice in the Northern Advocate of 22 March 1941, stating that trains on the line would being stopping at Cameron's Crossing, opposite Orauta School, on 24 March 1941. The Orauta School, which closed in 2005, is 7 km along the branch line from Otiria, which tallies with the information in the Okaihau Branch article. However, after reviewing the print sources available at Auckland Central Library about the Okaihau Branch, my conclusion was that, with the possible exceptions of the stations at Otiria, Kaikohe and Okaihau, none of the other stations could be regarded as meeting WP notability criteria, and other than the Northern Advocate advertisement and the references already in the article, I could find no other reference to Cameron's Crossing Station. Paora (talk) 10:20, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks Paora - based on this new (old) information, I'm happy with it being kept or redirected depending on the particular notability requirements for train stations. I'm thinking that a redirect may still be the best option, but I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other. Turnagra (talk) 18:10, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep or Merge to Okaihau Branch. Paora's source checks out and I have added it to Okaihau Branch to support the mention of Cameron's Crossing there. I hope someone with more railway notability experience now chimes in to help us decide whether this merits a stand-alone article or a redirect. ~Kvng (talk) 15:43, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, but edit to correct the opening date and add location. The 1941 advert shows it opened on 24 March 1941, rather than on 1 May 1914. It also mentions it was opposite the native school, which is marked on maps past. The Retrolens photo shows it west of Rogers Road, which would place it at about -35.4163 173.935161. Yonge's Railway Atlas shows it 6.88km, rather than 7km. A Facebook post mentions railway houses at the ballast pit. The school jubilee booklet says trains stopped for the school from 1930 and that the school was moved in November 1941. The booklet also has a photo of the Kauri Timber Company line near Lake Kaiwai, which is also marked on the atlas. Johnragla (talk) 20:15, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge / redirect to Okaihau Branch. Nowhere near enough info for a standalone article. Nurg (talk) 07:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• If this article is merged with the branch article, then for consistency, the same should be done for all the other station articles, which have even less information available than this one. Johnragla (talk) 10:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree. Merge them all. Nurg (talk) 10:24, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.