Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Byron L Giles

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 11:40, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Byron L Giles

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Byron L Giles (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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The article claims this is a professional basketball player and recipient of the Meritorious Service Medal (United States). However I can't find any sources verifying this and don't think this article can be reasonably improved. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:25, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 21:10, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 21:10, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Basketball-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 23:18, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 23:28, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete He does not pass WP:N sadly someone spent a considerable amount of time on the article (so far an SPA). I can find nothing notable in WP:NSOLDIER or WP:NBASKETBALL. Also not notable per WP:ANYBIO also does not pass WP:AUTHOR with a self published book. Lightburst (talk) 23:28, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete fails WP:SOLDIER and doesn't meet any other criteria for WP:GNG. Mztourist (talk) 03:19, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete certainly not notable as a soldier, I’ll leave others to determine if he is as a sportsman. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:08, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete not even close to passing notability guidelines for soldiers.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:15, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I am certain that the above information is not correct. I have never proposed this article for deletion. I will AGF. Lightburst (talk) 14:37, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep An athlete is presumed to be notable if the person has actively participated in major college compoetition, professional competition or won a significant honor. Mr. Giles walked-on to and played for a top college basketball team which was the MIAA champion and made it to the Elite 8 of the NCAA championships for 92-93, and received scholarship money after being cut from his high school team during the junior and senior years. He was part of a first group of Americans to play professionally in Mexico before it became popular under well-known coach Adolfo Sanchez in '96 and followed that with a successful military career. Other page concerns can be addressed in time. Note: Apologies to Lightburst for block statement concerning proposed deletion on above statement and thanks for AGF. Carla2022 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:59, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I'm glad to see the article creator posting here with a keep rationale. This is a first article, drafted at Draft:Byron Giles, and clearly represents good faith and hard work at satisfying our requirements and formatting conventions. Unfortunately, I cannot substantiate any possible claims that would satisfy the notability requirement. Giles does not appear to have received sufficient coverage in independent reliable sources to satisfy the general notability guideline. His military service, while clearly commendable, was not distinguished by promotion to a superior rank sufficient to merit an article under the relevant special criteria, and the U.S. Armed Forces classify the Army Meritorious Service Medal as a junior-grade award, so that criterion is not met. I looked for evidence of his having played professional basketball in Mexico as the article states, and all I was able to find was two short videos on his own YouTube channel, apparently taken from a TV broadcast (the first is here but that link may have to be removed as a copyright violation). The college affiliations given for two of the players, including Giles, and the "All-Star" legend for one team that I seem to glimpse when the score flashes on the screen suggest that this was an exhibition game against a Mexican pro team. Unless other documentation can be found for his playing organized pro ball, I don't think this rises to that level; in any case, the applicable special notability guideline does not appear to list a Mexican league among the basketball leagues where one appearance constitutes sufficient evidence of notability. If this was a tour that was written up in the papers, where the visitors played several games against top teams, or if he was indeed hired by a Mexican pro team, that might be enough for him to squeak by under general notability; but I didn't find any such coverage. What I did find that is not in the article is that he has founded a company, CertificationPoint; CrunchBase biography. But that hasn't made much of a splash either. So I'm sorry, I must advocate for the deletion of this biography. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:59, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Looks to possibly meet WP:Athlete 'In A Nutshell' requirements. Link to photo with jersey added. Pro Basketball-Mexico photo Carla2022 (talk) 13:45, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Added link to military photo not sure if this meets requirement for WP:SOLDIER. Bataan of Bataan photo Carla2022 (talk) 13:49, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete,Does satisfy WP:NSOLDIER, he is not notable. Alex-h (talk) 08:21, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Unsure if subject would also meet requirements for WP:NSOLDIER as stated above based on overall NSOLDIER criteria.[ [User:Carla2022|Carla2022]] (talk) 13:15, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, Article seems satisfy notability as WP:NSPORT and WP:ATHLETE for major amateur and professional competition. Not so sure subject reaches notability for WP:NSOLDIER. Dharp86 (talk) 1:29, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
    Dharp86, can you quote the specific criteria of NSPORT that you think he qualifies under?—Bagumba (talk) 08:54, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bagumba Thanks for roping me back in...:). Here’s the reference. The guidelines on this page are intended to reflect the fact that sports figures are likely to meet Wikipedia’s basic standards of inclusion if they have, for example, participated in a major international amateur or professional competition at the highest level. I have more to add more later in the extended area provided below concerning this basis.Dharp86 (talk) 2:16, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Let's see how the ATHLETE claim fares.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Tone 09:29, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment More information added to article to help with notability added. I noticed to short list of leagues for notability and believe FIBA should have been listed or described in more detail as it is the international governing body for basketball outside of the United States. I looked through the conversations concerning criteria and what could be added is that basketball in more of a worldwide sport as it ever was. Mexico and other Latin affiliated leagues really deserved more attention especially when we recall the Olympics in 2004 when Team Puerto Rico beat Team USA in basketball, a team, which consisted primarily of NBA All Stars. It was called a major upset but as we see now the rest of the world has made up significant ground. Carla2020 (talk) 4:51, 8 September 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carla2022 (talk • contribs)
  • Comment. I'm puzzled by the material that's been added to support his having played professional basketball. The Latin Basket page has him listed at the top just as a college player (I presume regarding his draft eligibility that 2096 is a typo for 1996), while the Year-by-Year Career section below does also have a line for Mexico but doesn't give a team name, just "Pacifico". I presume this is the "Liga Mayor-Pacifico" to which the article now refers, but I can't find that former league mentioned anywhere (I keep just getting the baseball league, Liga Mexicana del Pacifico), and the Jalisco team now in the Circuito de Baloncesto de la Costa del Pacifico, Gigantes de Jalisco [es], were Frayles de Guasave until 2019. Is there a full team name that can be searched in the newspapers? (And what's MIAA in the Latin Basket URL, by the way, sorry, I'm grasping for things to search.) Is that Latin Basket site a reliable source, by the way? I keep hoping someone from the Basketball WikiProject will come by and help with sources. In any case, though, as you say, the league is not listed as one of those where playing confers a presumption of notability. If you want to get that changed, User:Carla2022, I think the place to start asking is that WikiProject's talk page. Yngvadottir (talk) 01:11, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Yngvadottir much thanks for chiming in with assistance and feedback. Just to clarify, were you stating that Gigantes de Jalisco [es] was actually Frayles de Guasave until 2019. I'm not sure that's accurate as it looks as if Gigantes de Jalisco [es] and Frayles de Guasave are two separate teams. By the way the new league Circuito de Baloncesto de la Costa del Pacifico which Jalisco is part of was passed notabilty as a league and Frayles de Guasave passed notability as a team. Here's a photo Pro Basketball-Mexico photo with jersey. I understand your views as this is was before social media with limited archives and microfilm and also just how information can get buried in time. Probably similar to the Negro leagues and having to confirm and document records and statistics and having a limited number of photos. Could be easier to obtain newspaper articles and such from the subject about basketball in Mexico as there are probably not the level of archives in Mexico that there are in the US??? The LatinBasket website lists all players and seems to be categorized by the college a US player attended. Not really sure about how the foreign players who are listed get categorized and it seems to be a sister site of EuroBasket website. Carla2022 (talk) 2:20, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment Astros de Jalisco is actually a Jalisco team in a different league which may be associated with Frayles de Guasave.Frayles de Guasave looks to be a former team of the Circuito de Baloncesto de la Costa del Pacífico league. Looks like most of the league's current teams have established notability with a page. More on professional basketball in Mexico can be found at the following link. | Mexico Pro Basketball. Carla2022 (talk) 2:42, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
  • Bagumba I know I mentioned that I had more to add more later but rather writing a lot of words which may not taken into account I did some research and at the bottom of the draft were those related articles and there were quite of few professional basketball players from Mexican leagues and other leagues not on the suggested list....possibly hundreds of articles. Are we saying historical players are non-notable because they are ‘old and crusty’...(adding some humor)? Should subject be knocked down for not staying on the professional basketball route and serving his country admirably? Here are a few articles to consider which are in the same category which are strikingly similar. Maybe we could ping the creator and approvers of the articles below and many others for guidance?

[1] [2][3] Dharp86 (talk) 3:12, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

  • Comment Unfortunately, neither the NCAA Division II nor the CIMEBA constitute as a major international amateur or professional competition at the highest level so he does not pass WP:ATHLETE or WP:NBASKETBALL. At a quick glance, the difference between Giles' Wikipedia page and the pages of the other three basketball players mentioned above is that they have articles written about them in independent sources that go towards WP:GNG [4] [5] [6]. For Giles to pass WP:GNG, there has to be significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. There are fives sources in the article as of now, and none of them goes towards WP:GNG.
    1 is a media guide from a primary source that lists his name twice.
    2 is a EuroBasket.com profile page.
    3 is a dead link from the AirForce Times.
    4 is his own book.
    5 doesn't mention him.
In it's current state, the article simply does not pass WP:GNG. Alvaldi (talk) 10:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Alvaldi Thanks for assisting in helping with the article and the additional clarification for WP:GNG to help me along in this process. I guess the fortunate part about NCAA Division II nor the CIMEBA being in the listing on the guidance is that exceptions are being made which is awesome. I may be able to obtain print article sources from Mexico newspapers which should help with the updates being added but only thing these articles are not available online at this point. Any help from the group here at wikipedia would be appreciated. Carla2022 (talk) 5:47, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
    • @Carla2022: A basketball player does not have to participate in a major international amateur or professional competition (such as the NBA, EuroLeague, FIBA World Cup and the Olympics) to have an Wikipedia page, he or she merely has to pass WP:GNG. A player who has participated in major competitions is presumed notable and is usually given a bit more slack regarding sources BUT if it can been shown that he does not pass WP:GNG, his article would be deleted. In Giles' case, his Wikipedia page needs multiple articles which feature him significantly. It cannot be passing mentions, such as a game report that only mentions he scored x points in the game. If I use Zena Edosomwan, who also has played in Mexico, as an example, this article covering him is a significant coverage while this article is a passing mention. Alvaldi (talk) 11:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Alvaldi: Thanks for helping to find the appropriate filing for my article. Seems like it would fit under WP:BASIC due to the aggregate of various articles over time. Last question: In regards to basketball player, What are your thoughts on -> [7] with regards to notability...just trying to clarify where the pass/fail line is for passing mention. Carla2022 (talk) 14:07, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Carla2022: In its current state the Che' Jones page fails WP:GNG as the sources are not secondary sources[8], don't feature him, not indepth enough or are passing mentions. However, there are some newspaper articles on the internet that can be used to improve it, for example this one in the Las Vegas Review-Journal. I didn't look deep into it on Google, if there are more articles like that then the page can be improved to pass WP:GNG but if that is the only indepth article out there about him, then I would say Jones' WP article qualifies for deletion. Alvaldi (talk) 16:23, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Does not meet WP:NSPORT, which doesn't presume notability just for having played in college or playing in any pro league. They must meet specific criteria, like specific leagues or earning specific honors. No evidence that WP:GNG is met.—Bagumba (talk) 13:05, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Thanks for the additional clarification for WP:NSPORT as it relates to WP:GNG. Maybe this article should be added to articles requiring further development so reasonable sources can continue to be added to reach a better consensus. Seems like there is the possibility of articles being available to help with this article in the WP:BASIC area for people. Carla2022 (talk) 15:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment After taking a look at other articles this one should possibly fall under WP:NBIO with some layout work. Dharp86 (talk) 5:40, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
  • Delete This discussion has been WP:BLUDGEONed beyond recognition. Fails WP:NSPORT and neither NCAA Division II nor the CIMEBA is enough to pass WP:NBASKETBALL. The article was created by a single-purpose account and is almost certainly a pr page or a vanity page. Best, GPL93 (talk) 17:40, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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